263: Conduct a Relationship Audit with Ximena Vengoechea

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See terms of Venmo Me Stashterms. What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next.

Notes from this episode. Visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello my friends. I am so excited to be here today with Ximena Venguichea. She is a user, researcher, writer and illustrator whose work on personal and professional development has been published all over the place, including the Washington Post, Newsweek, HuffPo. She is best known for her project the Life Audit, which I'm excited to get into. And today we're also talking about her new beautiful book, Listen like youe Mean It, Reclaiming the Lost Art of True Connection. She's an experienced manager, mentor and researcher in the tech industry who previously worked at Pinterest, LinkedIn and Twitter, and is now having the unique experience of launching a book during a pandemic. So, Ximeena, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for having me.

Let's start there. Let's work backwards. So the book has come out. What has it been like for you launching in this environment? I'm curious if you've tried anything that has been particularly surprising or fun during this time of just so much upheaval for everybody.

Yeah, so it's interesting because I knew I had about a year so my book came out at the end of March, so I had about a year of knowing that my book was going to come out during the pandemic. So it wasn't a sort of last minute switch. And I thought that I was mentally preparing myself for that outcome. I was like, okay, everything's going to be virtual, no problem. But it does feel different even with that year's lead time to think about how you're going to approach it and what it's going to feel like. You don't really know until you're in it. And so I've been trying to take this moment as really a chance to experiment and try different ways of reaching different audiences. So one thing that I could not have predicted that I would try, but I did and I had a great time was I did a Clubhouse conversation that's an audio only platform that, that launched fairly recently and that was super fun and different and not something that was, you know, originally on my list of ways to share my experience working on the book with the world. And so I've just tried to kind of keep an open mind and experiment a little bit in this time.

Yeah, I think Clubhouse would be so fun. And someone gave me the great advice that even while you're working on a book, and this is so perfect for your line of work as a researcher. But they said Clubhouse is where they actually test a lot of their new ideas for books because you can get that instant feedback. Although I. I did a few Clubhouse pilots and I haven't been back since, so I've been neglecting the Clubhouse experiment.

It's so hard though. There's always more you can do in so many different directions. So you gotta focus too.

Yeah. And someone else said it well that she often felt like she was waiting on Clubhouse for the gems. Whereas with podcasts, they're so much tighter and edited and a little bit more planned. So you're not just like sitting there for three hours waiting for something I want to talk about. So your new book is called Listen like you mean it. And listeners who are listening to this conversation right now, it is full of the most delightful diagrams and illustrations that Humina's created. One concept that you talk about toward the back of the book, which we've actually done a podcast episode on, compassion fatigue. But you talk about empathy fatigue, and I think for so many people, they probably want to listen like they mean it. But especially right now, there is this very real exhaustion that I feel certainly as we enter 2021, because crazy events and ripple effects from 2020 are sort of continuing into the threads of my life, personally and professionally. So we have this starting point of semi exhaustion or greater and then this empathy fatigue. And I wonder what it's like and how you'd counsel people of just acknowledging. Maybe you could start by just telling us what is empathy fatigue and where do we go from there if we're. We don't like, I often feel guilty if I'm not showing up for my loved ones how I want to. But that fatigue is real.

Yes, yes. So I talk about this fatigue in terms of the empathy that we bring into conversations. So when we create space for others to share their experience, share their emotions, and we hold that space for others. I think it's a really. It's a beautiful gift, and we don't get it in most of our conversations. And so a lot of the book is about how to take your conversations deeper and connect in that more human to human way. But it was really important to me to also include a chapter on what happens when you give yourself over too much to another person through conversation, or you. You don't take care of yourself or you don't receive that in return. And I think all of that is possible even without a pandemic. The pandemic has just, you know, made it so much more difficult because so many, so many of us need more. We just do under these circumstances. And so I think it's really important to be able to recognize it. Like, what is this feeling? Okay, I'm really tired. I'm exhausted. I'm feeling a little bit emotionally spent. I want to be here for the other person, but I don't really have anything left to give or even. And this is very common in certain caregiving professions. I am so, you know, holding so much for this other person and what they're going through that I'm actually starting to take on those feelings myself. So someone's going through a really difficult time. You may be in, if not positive right now, neutral, but then you really start to internalize all they're going through in their pain. And that starts to affect your view of the world or your perspective. And so it's really important in these scenarios, and again, especially with the added pressure of the pandemic and all of the challenges that that has brought our way, to be able to recognize when you're feeling this, what's maybe the root cause of it and how to recover from it and also prevent it from happening in the future. So I think in terms of managing, you know, if you've gotten to that point, it's really about reminding yourself that you are separate and distinct from another person, which sounds really obvious, but is actually can be very difficult to, you know, center back on what am I experiencing? What am I feeling? Instead of just focusing on the other person and their experience. And then also I think it's important to take breaks and do things that feel restorative to you and make sure that you're supported too. Because the idea of bringing empathy into your conversations, it's not to become an empty vessel for someone else. That's not entirely healthy. And that means that your needs aren't being met, but it is to see and understand a person and also to be seen and understood yourself. So it really is a give and take. And it's important to be aware of those dynamics and recognize when, oh, this is feeling really lopsided, or I'm giving but I'm not receiving and adjust accordingly.

Yeah, you mentioned this give and take. And I thought one of the most helpful frameworks in the book is the relationship audit of takers versus energizers. And I even love that language. I remember there was a time in my life and sort of friendships that I had attracted where I was doing so much listening to the point of exhaustion, and that any one text message I would become resentful, which is obviously not that person's fault. But I woke up one day and I realized, I think my friendships are lopsided, you know, in the way that you're. Exactly the way you're describing. I wonder if you could talk to us about this relationship audit and have you ever had a moment in your life where you woke up and you realized, oh, I've attracted all of a certain type of taker, or talker, you know, and for me, the learning was also realizing a lot of my own codependent behaviors where I was an empath or an energy sponge, you know, all the things you just described. So definitely I take full responsibility, you know, for how I showed up in those.

Yeah. So I recommend this relationship audit, which is basically just looking at the relationships in your lives and where that energy is, is going, whether it's coming to you or from you, and whether or not it's imbalance. And I talk about these different groups as, you know, takers being those people who maybe you notice, maybe you don't, but they tend to take more from you than they give back. And so they come to you. Maybe they have a problem, they share what's on their mind. Maybe they ask what's on your mind. Maybe it's sort of a cursory, you know, like, oh, yeah, I. I need to, you know, ask a follow up. Or. Or maybe they don't. I mean, I think there are some people who genuinely. They're so tuned into their own experience that they forget. And in particular, when you are talking to someone who is an empath who is tuning into the other person who is really listening deeply, it feels really good. It feels really good because it feels like we are understood as individuals, but it also feels really good because it's somewhat rare. And so I think if those are qualities that you have that you're bringing into conversation, it is really important to have this sort of moment with yourself and just audit these relationships, because people don't necessarily mean to, you know, pull so much from you. But if you have this natural talent or if you've been working on it and really manifesting that in conversation, it can become quickly lopsided. And it's really different from when you're in the presence of an energizer. And you know what that feels like. It's the conversations that you walk away feeling refreshed, feeling inspired, feeling understood, feeling accepted. And those are so wonderful also. And that's the feeling that we want to give other people. But you have to. You have to kind of make sure that, you know, you've got everybody in your corner and that you're giving and receiving equally. That being said, it's not always possible because sometimes we have a co worker who we find draining in conversation, but they're our co worker. You know, we can't just say, okay, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna be on this team with you, or it can be a family member. You know, there are certain relationships in our lives that we recognize may take more from us than we're comfortable with, but we can't just, you know, say, okay, well, I'm not going to have that person in my life. Sometimes you can, but sometimes you can't. And that's when I think learning techniques to gracefully exit a conversation can be really helpful, because in some cases, you'll be able to say, I'm going to gracefully exit this relationship, and in other cases, you can't. But if you can at least extricate yourself from the conversation, then that can help you find a little bit more balance.

I love that you shared those techniques in the book the Graceful Exit, because so often people stop at. Yeah, just exactly as you just said, Just phase out the takers from your life or make a graceful exit. But you actually gave an example of one that sticks out to me as you were in the grocery store and you did run into a co worker, and maybe you could tell us that moment, but it was a really powerful example of how to do a graceful exit. Because that's always where I tend to get stuck on this stuff is like, even when someone says you want to meet for coffee, and then I imagine maybe I'm an hour in, and I don't know about you, but sometimes I'll just fall off an energy cliff. Like, I think I'm managing it well, and then I'll get a certain amount in and just all of a sudden, get overcome with restlessness. So tell us a little more about some graceful exits that you've landed for yourself.

Yeah, so the story I talk about in the book that you're referring to is I was in the grocery store, it was on a Sunday. And, you know, in that sort of, like, final Sunday set of errands, state of mind where you're just kind of trudging through and just. You gotta get it done. And I ran into a coworker who I hadn't seen in many months because they were on. They'd been on paternity leave. And, you know, we exchanged some small talk, and I thought, okay, you know, nice to see this person, but also have other things to do. And I could kind of see a line forming in the corner of my eye. And I was just thinking, okay, there's. I have to get going. And my colleague, who I wasn't particularly close with, suggested spontaneously, like, hey, do you want to get coffee after this? And, like, you know, I could tell that this person really wanted to dish a little bit, like, get a little bit of the workplace gossip. They'd been gone for months. They, you know, wanted to catch up in that way, which I was hesitant to do for various reasons. And so I think I just said something like, you know, I'm so sorry, I have to run. And I know you're very busy, but, you know, like, have a great Sunday. Something like that. And in that case, I think the graceful exit works because it's short. It's to the point. I'm not spinning a story. So I'm not saying, oh, you know, I really have to go walk my dog, and I have to go do this and I have to go do that. I'm just like, I have to go. Like, I have to run. But, like, thank you for the offer. That. That's so nice. Like, But I can't. Right. I'm not getting into details. And that actually makes it more effective, because I think when you start to get into the details, it can start to sound like you're coming up with excuses, and maybe you are. But leaving it simple, I think is best, particularly when it's not a close relationship. I think, on the other hand, when it is a close relationship, like, you were talking about kind of hitting that wall in terms of your energy. If that's a conversation with someone you know, well, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say, hey, I've loved our chat. I can feel I'm hitting a wall, and I want to make sure that I'm still present for you, and I'm not really able to do that right now. Can we pick this up next week or. Like, this was so fun. I'm starting to get tired. And I want to honor that. Let's follow up on this later or whatever it may be. So you're just. You're being honest about where you're at. And I think in relationships where there is some rapport beyond, you know, just a co worker who you kind of sort of know, I think it is nice if you can share that and let the other person in on your experience. And that's better, actually, than trying to trudge through and just kind of like trying to ignore in your mind. Well, I'm kind of tired, but I haven't seen this person in a while, so I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna suck it up. I'm gonna be here and I know I'm gonna enjoy it. I just. Maybe I'll just get another cup of coffee. Right. Like all of that internal monologue, it does show up in conversation like, you're tired. Just take the break, you know, don't force it.

And I have to say, I've loved when people will say to me either one on one or at an event like, I gotta go home and introvert now. Like, they'll just be so straightforward. I love the way you phrased it and I respect that. It's kind of. It's so powerful to see somebody else say, you know what? I was up late. Like, well, I'm even explaining it, but I was up late. I feel myself. I've just fallen off the energy cliff. Like, it has nothing to do with you, but I. I love it. I love when people model that. And I've also had friends say that when they had their first child, which I don't have any kids, but they said they just got so much better at that. Clean, clear, graceful. No, because they probably had to say it so much. And I know you have. You have done the herculean feat of working on this book while working from home for a nine to five, while raising a newborn. And honestly, that has my jaw on the floor like one. I don't even know where to begin to ask how you did that. But I could imagine that those three things in concert also sharpened your graceful no Skills.

Yes. I mean, in some ways, because of the pandemic, there wasn't that much to say no to after a while.

Since.

We were all just hanging out at home. But yeah, I mean, I think for Me a big part of how I work in general and what enabled me to manage those three like big work streams, let's say at the same time was having quite a bit of self awareness about how I work. And so I pay attention to, you know, what is my natural productivity cycle. Not what, what are the productivity hacks that I, you know, think I should be doing to, you know, have better output. But what are the things that I know about myself and how I work and how can I use that to my advantage? And so for me, that's knowing that I do my best thinking and strategic work and creative work in the morning. I'm not very good at that, say around 3pm But I can definitely have a conversation, a meeting.

Around that time. I'm not going to be writing during that time. And even worse, I'm even worse at the end of the day. So by the end of the day then I know, okay, I can do illustrations because it's using a different part of my brain. It's actually kind of meditative for me. It's relaxing and it's working on a concept that I've kind of done the heavy lifting already in the morning and now I can do the more fun and meditative exercise of translating that. And so thinking about those pieces of the project, you know, when did I need to be interviewing somebody, when did I need to be writing, when did I need to be illustrating and how can I map that to match my natural productivity cycle? I think was really important. And then the other thing, not to be understated is having a support system is huge. So, you know, I was in the Bay Area at the time and my husband had several months of paternity leave after my mat leave ended. And so that really helped once we were able to make that shift or was like, okay, someone is watching the baby. Like I don't need to think about that right now. Besides like nursing breaks, which obviously I was on deck for. But having someone to rely on was really helpful and having that consistency was really helpful. And then the last thing that I'll say that I think was uniquely helpful for me was I have a very unsexy spreadsheet that I started when I first basically got the book deal two years ago. And it's just a time tracker. It's, it literally, it's like a categorize, like what did I work on, how long did I work on it for? You know, and, and there's nothing pretty about it, but what it does for me is it shows me that work has Been done. And that again, for me, uniquely, maybe is really motivating because as you know, you know, when you write a book, it's like you can spend a lot of time writing and then you might scrap stuff or you can sit in front of the screen for a while and be like, ah, I don't know where to start. And so that was a motivator for me of like, oh, hey, okay, maybe I didn't, you know, write the perfect chapter today, but I did a couple of hours of writing and like, that's sufficient for me because those were good hours. And I've got it on my spreadsheet so it's proof that progress was made.

I love a good spreadsheet, I really do. And I've similar to you, I've started doing that with email. Just email is a big challenge for me in terms of wanting to do it, doing it well, keeping up. Anyway, I started tracking. When did I start, when did I stop, how many emails? I track all my follow up items. And with writing too, it's so satisfying to just note some kind of progress because it is such a big, complex task or project. Working on a book. It's so many pieces. I love picturing you doing your illustrations in the evening too. I wouldn't have thought of that. For me, that'd be a heavy lift, probably with your illustrations in particular, because your book is really rich with illustrations and it's clear from your website that this is just such a talent that you have, but also something that's part of your visual voice. Did you have a big checklist for the book of how many diagrams you wanted and where and just start to check off one by one or would these illustrations sort of pop into your mind? I'm just wondering how you tackled that piece specifically.

Yeah, it definitely expanded as the book went on. I think originally I was planning on maybe including 25 illustrations, which there are a lot more than that. There's probably just shy of 100 at the end of the day. So I approached it pretty organically. You know, I definitely didn't work backwards and say, okay, 25. So that's going to be, you know, two per chapter. So, you know, what are the main two that I want to highlight? It was more that as I was working on these chapters and really working the ideas, an idea would come to me of, well, how can I translate this better? Like there might be a different way to say this. And so it was a little bit more experimental, more playful, more organic than anything else. And really.

I found it to be a very generative process where in the end, I had way more illustrations than I needed or than knew what to do with. And that, you know, I think, is actually not too dissimilar from my writing process. I'm not precious with my words. Like, I'm more of a get it all out there and then let's go back and refine. And in some ways, I think something similar happened with the illustrations where I wound up having, like, way more than I needed, and then could really go back and say, okay, what's working here? And pull out the pieces that I felt were strongest. But there was no strategy of, you know, this many illustrations per chapter. Maybe that would have been a smart thing. I don't know. I didn't totally know what I was getting myself into for the production phase of the book, but we did it.

I know it's because that's its whole. I mean, I think it'd be so fun to see all the diagrams you didn't use, like, it's the missing chapter, but in your case, the missing visuals. That'd be such a fun bonus.

Yes. Yes. I've definitely thought about, like, well, I have all of these pieces of art. How can I kind of repackage them and share them?

I did not check out the Life Audit, but is that also graphically oriented?

I do. Yes, I. I do have illustrations in the Life Audit as well. And typically, you know, my approach with visuals is I. I don't approach them from a, you know, decorative perspective of making something really pretty as the goal so much as a conceptual, you know, point of clarity, a way to communicate an idea in a different way in a simpler way, you know, more whimsical way often. And I think that just probably speaks to, you know, maybe how I process information, which is like, part verbal, part visual. And also knowing that that's true for so many other people and just helping to translate ideas in these images as a complement to what's happening in the text.

I love what you said about it's simpler, it's not so decorative so much as a conceptual point of clarity. And that's not easy to do. That is it's the. Always attributed to Mark Twain, But I would have said less, but I didn't have the time. And I feel like images really do that. And I love, too, that you're bringing in this value of whimsical. So it's not just that they're simple or conceptually clear, but whimsical as a part of your style. Did you do any training, like, or did you just. I don't know, I'm wondering when this visual voice sort of came to you with the illustrations. And I know your website, like, even your story of where you were born and where you ended up professionally is written in such a organic way, I would say, in addition to whimsical.

Mm, yeah. I mean, as a kid I took art classes. I went to a magnet school in middle school, magnet school for the arts. And my like, quote unquote major was visual arts, you know, so it was always part of my life. And it was fun, it was a fun hobby, but I didn't really take it seriously in any way. You know, I didn't go to art school after that. I kind of set it aside honestly for many, many years. And actually getting an iPad and like, working drawing on the iPad was one of the things that brought me back to it. Because for anyone who's ever, you know, done a digital drawing, you know that it's very freeing in the sense that you're not wasting paper or ink, you know, you're just, you're on this device, you can start over, you can change things very, very quickly. And so just open things up a little bit. For me, kind of took the risk, level down when I returned to drawing, and that was really encouraging. And then I just started doing more of it and finding more ways that it was helpful in telling the story that I want it to tell. And I think too, and you know, certainly I think this is true for folks who have visual arts that they're working on and maybe also for writers too. I do think there was a moment where, you know, early on I sort of resisted my style, my visual style, and I wanted it to be a little more serious. And then, and you know, I was kind of experimenting with different, different mediums and things like that. And then I just sort of accepted like, no, this, this is your style for a reason. Like, it is light hearted, it's a little bit cartoonish, it's very accessible in that way. And I came to really not just accept that, but to, to understand that. Well, that's kind of a reflection of me. Like, I'm a little playful, I'm a little bit, you know, cartoonish or humorous. You know, I have a sense of humor that I'm communicating. And so rather than resist my natural style, I'm going to embrace it. And that was also another moment where I felt just that much more invested in doing that kind of work.

And we need it. I don't know about You. But I feel like business books sometimes can be. Take themselves so seriously and they're just all in the similar format. And this was so fun. Like it, it really is a nice break for the reader. And I can't help but think, you know, in a way you, with you having so much experience in user research and.

Empathy, it's like it's empathetic to the reader as well to say, here, let me give you a little oasis for your eyes or your mind to like take this information these different ways. So I'm all for it. I love that you leaned into that.

Thank you. Yeah. And I love how you put that in terms of, you know, empathy for the reader. Because I do think I, you know, I think listening and I think acquiring any skill really, like, it takes work and it takes effort, but it can be really rewarding. And I wanted that journey to feel.

Insightful. Yes. Of the things that you were learning about listening, but also about yourself, and also feel supported in that journey. And so I think the illustrations help in that way of kind of breaking up the information. But also there are exercises, there's self reflection prompts to help you as a reader, as a listener, really understand what you're bringing into conversation, how that shows up, how you can manage it. And that was really important to me particularly because I think listening, it is for the other person. But so much of it is about ourselves, you know, and what we're bringing into a given conversation.

Say more about that when you say listening. Yes, it's for the other. But so much more about ourselves.

Well, I think that, you know, it's for other people in that we're trying to, you know, literally hear what they're saying. And so there's this idea, okay, I'm just gonna give them my ear and that's it. But it's about ourselves in the sense that, that we can very often get in our own way. So we've got our inner monologues that can start to run during a conversation. We're distracted and we can't stay present. We have what I call default listening modes. And these are just natural ways of showing up to listen in conversation. It's a filter you tend to hear things through based on early relationships and your personality. And it dictates, it dictates what you hear. Right. So if I'm someone who has a problem solving listening mode, I hear everything through the lens of a problem to be solved. That's a very different listening mode from someone who has a more mediator listening mode, who's really listening to hear all sides of the story at any given time. These modes are great, but they're not always what's needed in a conversation. If I'm listening as a problem solver and the other person is just sharing their experience, they don't see a problem or they see the problem, but they don't need help. Advice that I give, my response may be unwelcome. Right. And so I think so much of listening is identifying those things about yourself. It's identifying before you go into conversation, what is my default listening mode? And it's identifying when you're in the conversation, oh, I'm getting distracted. My thoughts are starting to run the show. Or I'm actually not listening because I'm winding up my response like there's something I want to say, and I'm focusing more on that. And it's knowing too. Like, oh, you know what? I'm feeling emotionally charged right now. Something that's been said has sent me off, has activated me in some way. That means I also can't listen in this moment. So that's what I mean when I say so much of it is actually about us because there are so many things, whether they're external or internal, that affect how we show up. And a lot of being an effective listener and an empathetic listener is recognizing those things as they're happening and being able to manage them in the moment.

I love that you brought up the common listening modes, because I actually wanted to read them out for listeners. You ask in the book, you say, which one are you? And then I have a question about this. So listeners. Heimena mentioned a couple of them, but we have explainer, validator, identifier, nurse, problem solver, diffuser, mediator, empath, interrupter, interviewer, and daydreamer. So my question for you, Ximena, is, is there a meta mode that you envision that transcends all of these? That's mind like water. Is there a mode called pure presence or as pure as possible? Or do you find that we are adjusting and we usually have one or more of these lenses? We just can't help it. They're there. But the trick is to try to resist the urge to go too deeply until we know what's needed?

Yeah, I think it's more the latter in that I hesitate to, you know, direct anyone towards this, like, higher level of listening that I can't say that I've tapped into that if it exists, you know, the sort of, like, meditative.

Guru level of listening. Let's say, I think it's more like it's. It's actually kind of somewhat like any typology or even if you're into astrology. Right. It's like you've got all the signs or you've got all the types. If you've done a work assessment, you've got all the modes. You probably have pieces of each of those in you. It's just that there's one that you tend to use more than the other. You lean in. In a certain direction. And so that's actually. That actually makes it more approachable, accessible in the sense that you're not learning an entirely different mode. Like you have that mode already in you. You're just learning to recognize when you could be channeling that mode instead of the one that you are really, really comfortable with. And that has probably been reinforced in conversations and that people may admire you for even. Right. There's a reason that you have that listening mode to begin with, but it's about broadening that view and saying, okay, I tend to listen as an identifier. That can be really helpful because it helps the other person know they're not alone. But sometimes it can help. It can cause the other person to feel dismissed like I'm talking about myself. So let me be aware of that and see what's needed in this given conversation. And what other modes can I pull from? But they're all there. It's just that we. We tend to lean on one more than the other.

I could also see it being super helpful to have these modes and that the labels you've given them are so perfect to be able to say, as a coach might say, do you want me to, you know, would it be more helpful for me to just listen or would it be more helpful for us to brainstorm or problem solve, you know, and to just ask, which hat is more helpful for you right now? Which listening mode?

Yes. And I think.

We often do need to ask because it's not always easy to know what does the other person need from me in this conversation? Which is part of why we have this default. We default to, well, they probably need this, right?

Or I can't help myself, but, you know, like, diagnose the problem or try to give the solution. Yeah.

And frankly, you know, sometimes the other person doesn't know. It would be so much easier in conversation if, you know, a friend came to us and said, you know, what I really need right now is to be supported by you. Or if a co worker said, what I really need right? Now is to see things from all angles. I need that mediation, whatever it may be. That's not very common. And so it is a little bit of trying to help the other person express that need, if they haven't already or potentially even uncover it in the process, and then adapting to that need. And I think asking questions like you mentioned is absolutely one of the ways that you do that where you can say, hey, you know, my instinct is to provide a set of potential solutions here. Is that what you're looking for? You know, so you give them a chance to say, yeah, no, or like, yes, that's exactly it. Thank you. Like, let's do that now.

I love the way you phrase that. And that's a big part of the David Rock school of coaching, which is. I almost think it's excessive in some of the examples they gave. But where you're constantly giving these branches to the conversation and for them it's for the sake of psychological safety is you're just always asking permission. And I love the way you said it. Like, I have the urge to jump in with a few ideas or, oh, I have experience with this. I'm happy to share. Or I'm happy to also just keep listening. You know, and you mentioned too, the mode sometimes the other person will enter, like monologuing, venting, or confessing. I think that's particularly tricky where maybe a friend goes into a vent session, but it never ends, you know, and as a coach, we would be trained to say, I'm going to pause you. Is it more helpful to use our time. Do you want to keep venting or would it be more helpful to go into what you do want? You know, what, what do you suggest? Let's say as a listener, yes, the person in front of you is in a monologue or event, or maybe they've told you this story five times already. Do you think there is a case for interrupting and shifting the conversation?

Yes, I do. And I think, you know, most times interrupting is. Is not a good thing in the sense that we lose the chance to hear what the other person had to say. Some people won't recover from an interruption. Like the thought is gone. And so there is a real risk in interrupting someone else and creating a sort of dead end there. In the case of what you're talking about, where someone is repeating themselves or they're maybe spinning on a problem, they're kind of cycling around it but not making any progress, or they're venting, it's absolutely okay to interrupt. And that kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier of the point of bringing this empathetic listening into conversation is not to become a vessel for someone else and just to, you know, receive everything they have to say. You have needs too. And so I think it's perfectly appropriate to gently interrupt. And depending on the scenario, maybe if someone's really venting to say something like, you know, do you want me to. Do you want me to listen here? Would something else be helpful? So you're first kind of checking, and then if they keep going, say, I think you can be honest, especially if there's a good relationship thereof. It seems like it would be helpful to keep talking about this. I'm not sure I can keep up with you right now. It's similar to what we were talking about earlier, right, where we're saying, ah, I've hit a wall. You know, you can gently say, I don't know if I'm. I don't know if I can give you what you need right now. Is it okay if we table this or come back to this? So it's. You can acknowledge, like, hey, I can't. I don't think I can meet you where you want to go. Can we try something different? Or can I recommend that you speak to someone else about this, this issue? Like, have you tried XYZ can also be a way out of that, which may be harder, frankly, if the person is not someone that you have an intimate relationship with. And that's where I would go back to some of those, you know, broader exits that we talked about earlier. The one thing that I would say I probably wouldn't try, and I think this is a very natural instinct. There can be a sense of like, ah, this person is talking so much. Maybe I just need to talk. Because we get frustrated. We're like, oh, this person is just. It's the same story. I know the story. Like, I'm gonna be rude and talk over them. And while there is something, I admit, slightly satisfying of about interjecting yourself into the conversation that way, it's usually not very satisfying in terms of what you get in response. Because if someone's really on a roll and they're gonna talk right over you like that, it's not gonna. It's not going to have its intended effect. And so you're better off raising awareness of what's happening in some way and sharing where you're at with that, you know, and that's, that's the way to, I think, manage that kind of conversation.

Yeah, those are the funniest where there's no ping pong or tennis happening at all. It's just both sides are just speaking, but not to. Not actually to each other or with each other. Just like, let me. It's my turn, and now it's my turn. And oh, those are really funny to get in those. I find it also difficult. The times I find it trickiest to give any kind of awareness or feedback is also when the person. It's a pattern that's lifelong or something. It's just so hard to say. I don't know if you've had this. We're talking about the. The same dating scenario, you know, like, or pattern. And I'm probably not the one equipped. Like, I can. I can. I can bring awareness to the pattern, but it's like the venting will always be along the same lines if they're not changing and evolving.

Right. And. And I do think that's an important point, which is that our goal isn't necessarily to change a person. Like, those behaviors are so, you know, they go back. Right. If someone has these tendencies, obviously we should say, we, we all do this from time to time. We vent, we sometimes monologue, we sometimes ramble. These things happen. Right. It's. It's not that we're all immune to it, but you're right. There are. There are certain people for whom this has become a pattern and this has become a way of how they relate to each other or to other people. Rather. Someone may be monologuing because they think that they have a captive audience and that they're interested. Right. They may not be picking up on the cues that maybe their audience isn't that interested. And so I think it's important to remember that we're not trying to change a person. That's a lot of work. That's probably not a job that we are well equipped to take on. And it really has to come from the other person. And so that's where it's more about managing that relationship, Distancing yourself from that person if you can. And if you find, wow, this is really consistent. This is really draining. I don't feel supported, you know, by my friend. I feel like I'm. I'm carrying the weight of our friendship. You could. You could potentially start to distance yourself from that person.

Yeah. And I have to say there's been times in my life where a friend has put up, let's call it a graceful wall.

Where I can tell they're just not in a place to roll up their sleeves and dig in and This. I remember when a couple years ago, and my friend just kind of was like, oh, sorry to hear that. There was no, oh, my God, I can't believe he did that. Or this happened. And there was no sense of, let's really dig into this right now. She's like, that's too bad. And it was compassionate, but I have to say it was a graceful wall that kind of let me know. Okay. She's not interested in going any deeper on that right now.

Right. And she was still acknowledging, you know, that you were going through a hard time or that there was some challenge, but it wasn't necessarily an invitation.

Right. It was not an open door. Like, oh, let's go all the way into that scenario. It was like, okay, yeah, that's too bad. So it goes both ways. And I actually think now, one thing I really appreciated in the last year is just people. When you say, how are you? I find it such a more honest response, like, oh, well, right now I'm exhausted, or right now my life's in total turmoil and upheaval. How are you? It's like just to really know what's going on with people. And I. I love the examples you've given us of how to do that from the listener's perspective as well.

Yeah. And I think that if we can bring that openness that you're talking about to our post pandemic worlds, that will be a real gift too. And if we can bring that curiosity to our post pandemic worlds, I think that's where we can have some of these deeper, more meaningful conversations and just open up a bit. Yeah.

So if you could give listeners one experiment to try as they go about their lives in the next day or week, what would it be?

This is a good one, I think. I would say. I would suggest paying attention to when you are listening versus planning what you want to say next, because I think we often get those confused. And if you're in a conversation and you start to pay attention and you hear yourself winding up your response, just try and let it go. Just say, oh, there's a thought. Or, oh, I'm focusing on my response. I'm going to let that go and come back to the conversation. Most times, if it's really important, it'll come back to you.

So good. And even the phrase winding up, what you're gonna say, it's exactly how it goes. And look, I even interrupted you, so I did it myself. Thank you so much. Ximena. This has been really wonderful to dig into some of this with you listeners. If you haven't yet, check out a copy of Listen like you mean it Reclaiming the lost Art of True Connection. You and I'll put the links to your website and social in the show notes. Is there anywhere else you'd like to send people?

The only thing I would add is if you're interested in this topic and others like it. I do have a newsletter which is also on my website, but it's ximena.substack.com amazing.

Thank you so much Ximena.

Thanks Jenny.

Thanks so much for listening. Welcome to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on podcast Twitter at Jenny Blake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.