269: How to Stand Out When Everyone is Peddling the Same Sh*t with Terri Trespicio

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What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast. If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello. Hello everybody. Welcome back to Pivot. I am so excited to be here today with my birthday twin, Terry Trespassio. We are both libras. Born on October 9, Terri is an award winning writer, speaker, brand advisor and author of the brand new book Unfollow. Your passion, how to create a life that matters to you. Inspired by her very popular TED Talk of a similar name. Stop searching for your passion that has more than 7 million views. HubSpot named Terri one of the top 18 female speakers who are killing it. And I love watching Terri do stand up, which she's exceptionally good at. And that humorous voice comes all the way through the book. Terri, welcome to the show.

Thank you.

I'm so happy to have you here. Congrats on your first book launching to the world.

Thank you. I really am very excited about it.

It's so exciting. There's one chapter in particular that I wanted to zoom in on. How to stand out when everyone's peddling the same stuff. And you used a slightly more colorful word in the book, which is even funnier. This chapter starts with you talking about your experience in an mlm and I doubt at the time, as you said, you didn't quite know MLMs were not on every documentary with the big reveal of the pyramid scheme nature of them. Wait, I almost called it a pyramid scream. There's our next that is what it is.

It is a scream. It's a quiet scream.

This is an example, listeners, of Terri's writing style. She says in Seller be sold entrepreneur, real estate investor, sales deity and bro king Grant Cardone writes, your ability or inability to sell, persuade, negotiate and convince others will affect every area of your life and will determine how well you Survive. No big deal. It's just a survival skill. Take us back to those MLM days of starting to sell jewelry and how that connects to this idea of selling as a skill.

Well, at the time, I did not have selling as a skill in my toolbox yet because I had just completed my MFA in poetry.

I did a double take when I saw that. I thought, MFA in poetry, that's very niche.

That's extremely niche and a real privilege to be able to give some time to work on the craft. I used to actually make fun of it and be like, oh yeah, I got an MFA printer. That makes a lot of sense. But in fact, I was apprenticed to Words and it's still my main source of income. So I got to do a deep dive into that and I was working. Now. I had my first writing job as a copywriter at a catalog company direct to consumer wigs and hair pieces. Not kidding. I knew everything about wigs and wefting and fiber and synthetic versus real. I was deep in it and I was writing for a living. But. And here's what, here's where I got to the mlm because it's like, well, how do you make that jump when you have a full time job doing something you love? Blah, blah, blah. I really was feeling grown up with my full time job, with my benefits, and realized I did not have a grown up wardrobe and realized all the jewelry I have was like $2 and I bought it at the mall. And I was like, I think it's time to up my game a little bit in like the jewelry department. Like it just fel. Like I wanted to become this woman who would wear nice pieces of jewelry. So I took an interest and a friend of mine at work had an interest in it too. And I started asking her a lot of questions about it and wanting to know where she shopped for things. And then she said, well, you know, I'm having a jewelry party. And I said, what is that? And she said, well, it's like, it's like Tupperware, but it's jewelry. So I was like, you want me to come to your house, drink wine and shop? I was like, I'm in. So I went and had never seen anything like it. Like, she just had every surface of her living room covered with all this jewelry and, and we could try it on. We were just basically hanging out. And by the way, the woman who was selling, the rep, who was also like, basically like nine months pregnant at the time, she just kind of sat there and chilled out and we Talked about. I was like, is this a job? Are you doing this as a job? And it turned out, of course, that if you sell jewelry, you get a lot of free jewelry, you get to earn commissions to buy great jewelry. So I was like, what is this? First of all, the word side hustle didn't even exist yet. That's how long ago this was. But I was like, I bet I could do this. I mean, I had a good job, but I was like, I could use lower money and I could definitely use a fund for my wardrobe. So that's it. That's where it started. And I called the company because the sales rep was fine, but she wasn't exactly a go getter. And I was like, I'm not working under her. I know how this works. I want a real go getter. So I called the company, I said, I think I want to do this. Can you put me with someone with a little work ethic? And they stuck me with a very serious Protestant woman who was very serious about her. She was kind of square jawed and stalwart. She's, oh, you're going to sell jewelry. So I met a whole new group of people and learned what this was. And it really wouldn't have mattered if it was jewelry or glassware or Tupperware or whatever it was. Okay, now we're going to try to get people to book parties because this is back in the days of party plan and you're going to get them to hold a party in their house, you're going to sell jewelry, you're going to make a commission and. And the goal is find more people to sell jewelry because that's how a multi level marketing company works. Now to be clear, Jenny, I always feel like I should say this. I know there's a ton of bad press about MLMs and about how they do take advantage of people who do not have means, who get in over their head and make no money. And a lot of people make no money, but a few people make a lot of money. It's not unlike the corporate world in that way.

You were somewhere in between. Right. Because I saw that you got rookie of the year.

Oh, I was not great at this. Like my first party, I wasn't bad. I wasn't like, I have no talent, I had no skill yet. And I was also embarrassed to be seen as selling because to sell and people know you're selling, then you have an agenda. And I felt weird. So what I did is I didn't sell. I said, oh, I guess it'll just sell itself. Well, no, it doesn't. Nothing sells itself. And so I had a few bad parties, but I was already in. I said, look, I'm doing this. I have the support of a group. And to their credit, I learned there was training materials, there were events, there were ways to learn how to sell. And also, you'll learn it like anything by doing it. So here's where my turning point was. I felt guilty trying to make people buy stuff. Does this sound familiar? It doesn't matter what you're selling. We all have that moment. I didn't want people to think I was trying to pull one over on them. And then I didn't want to feel that I was taking advantage of them. But what happened was I realized that people liked the jewelry, that people were saying to me, I like this, but I don't know, do you think I can wear it? I'm like, of course you can wear it. What do you mean? And I realized the sales had very little to do with me. It had to do with how I was helping them see themselves. And once I did that, I realized it wasn't manipulation. It was allowing people to get what they wanted and what they needed to believe they could have. And I say that because. Do you ever go to a restaurant and go, how's the salmon? Well, what do you think your server's gonna say? It's terrible. They say the salmon's great. Yeah, exactly. That. That person who asks, how's the salmon? Wants the salmon.

See, that's interesting. And then it. Isn't it refreshing when the server will kind of look at you and go shake their head a little bit and be like, I really recommend this steak? Well, you ask.

It's nice.

Because we all know the woman who bullshits you in the dressing room that's like, oh, my God, that looks great on you. And you go, no, it doesn't. Can you just be honest with me? Like, I will buy something here today. This happened to me the last time I was in Reese. I go shopping twice a year. I buy as much as I can so I don't have to do it again. I was, like, prepared to spend money, but this woman was just blowing smoke so much with every single thing I touched and put on. I'm like, this is not even realistic.

Right. And we see through that.

Yes.

But when people would say, does this look good? I'd be like, what about you could alter? You're helping them find themselves. I wasn't trying to sell something just because I wanted to sell it. That made me feel. That's where the discomfort was, was. But when I realized people wanted to believe they could wear this necklace and they were, well, I'm not going to talk them out of it. But I realized I had to help them see what was possible for them. That was a really subtle shift. And once I realized I could do that, I said, oh, I have to stop thinking out of my own pocket and help people see what's possible. Even if we're. When we're talking about possibility, we're talking about a bunch of bangles on a table. You know, this is not big thinking. So then I started to sell more. And then people said, how long have you been doing this? How do you do this? Tell me about how it works. Those people are looking for the opportunity. I didn't say, oh my God, Louise, you have to do this. No, you don't have to do anything. But I started to talk to people about how well I didn't know how to do it. And now I'm doing it. And I was making a nice supplement to my income. And so then I started to build a team. And before you knew it, I had built not a huge team, but I did win. I think it was second place rookie recruiters of the year. And I earned the free trip to St. Thomas. I mean, those sales incentives that kind of got my competition going. And I was like, oh, I can do that. But it totally. It seems so out of left field for a poet turned copywriter, for someone who's going to make her living with words, to go and bother with this. But years later, when I got laid off from my job as a magazine editor at Martha Stewart, I had to. And I wanted to go into business for myself. Guess what came into play? The ability to sell what you have to offer. Nothing is wasted.

Yeah, I appreciate that so much. You say in this chapter, you're lying to yourself if you think you're not in sales because you can't get much of anything you want in your life without.

Seems to me that a through line throughout your career has been trying new things, things that don't seem immediately related. So we've got an MFA in poetry, which, as he said, does have to do with words. There's developing this meta skill of sales, even humor writing. And I know you're just. You'll tell us how long you've been doing standup. But it strikes me that even humor and crafting jokes, it's kind of a form of sales. Like, you have to sell the joke.

Oh, absolutely.

You have to craft it in the right way. And you kind of have to sell the audience, like get the audience on your side and laughter is the result. Like in the case of a night at the mic, it's not necessarily that they're buying anything from you, but that they're laughing and you've won them over somehow. And just to take this back to the chapter title and then take this wherever you want it. How to stand out when everyone's peddling the same shit. And I think this is something that a lot of people feel very self conscious about, often, myself included, just selling something when it seems like everyone else is doing it. Especially these days where we could see everybody online. So tell us a little bit about how standup fits into this and also how do we stand out?

Stand up is an interesting beast because it is such a specific form. Just like you can be a writer and not write sonnets, you can be a speaker and not be a standup comic. I think it's fun to deep dive into different forms. When I took a forms poetry class, I totally nerded out. It was so fun to have that set of rules and write within those rules. That freed up creativity in that way. Learning standup, which by the way, we might think is a scary talent that like 10 people have, it's actually a skill too. And I took a class from a comic named Jim David who's been doing it for a million years. And he says, I'm sorry, you don't need a big personality or a scary talent to be a standup comic. You need to learn how to write a joke and then learn how to deliver that joke. And it is a kind of science and you get paid in laughs. So the timing and the ability to connect with someone and make them laugh is the ultimate customized content for that audience. And I think it's really fun to take a skill of honing a message, no matter what format or platform you're doing it on, and do it for that crowd. So no, I don't expect anyone would follow my path through life. And I don't think anyone needs to follow anyone's path through life. But I have found that to be. Not that anyone even has to feel or be known as being funny, but I want to tear away the veil of this idea of some people are talented at, oh, she's great at sales. Oh, he's great at comedy, maybe. And maybe you have no interest in those things, but I believe that you can learn more things than you think. And I don't think I'M special in any way, except that I have crafted a unique set, combination skill set that I present in the way that I want to present. I think that that's some of the challenge. The people still see themselves in terms of a role, an industry, a level. They're all these sort of x, y axis where we feel like we have to set ourselves. And it's still very boxy. And I always say it's kind of like when we think we should widgetize ourselves. Like, I'm a this. Who does this. It's like, why I'm. I'm a writer who does kind of write over writings in front of me and whoever needs help with it. Like, I don't think we need to be overly specific about the one thing that we will always do. Unless you like that. But I don't. When I think of people's careers evolving, I think, surprise yourself. Try something different. Position something for the people you want to help. And you can help lots of different people.

You mentioned your unique combination of skills and that you used to work at Martha Stewart magazine. Who could have seen it coming that you would partner with Snoop and they'd be selling CBD related products.

You know, well, Martha's career, my goodness. Right?

I love this idea of not widgetizing ourselves at this moment in time. What do you think are the unique ingredients that have helped you be where you are? I mean, whether it's the book, the TED Talk, stand up. Cause I think you are. See, it's interesting how you said, you know, I'm not special, but I think you are special. Like, you are funny. You do have a very unique sense of humor. Humor that comes through. And maybe what you're saying is that humor is a skill, just like sales. But don't you think some of us are more inclined to certain skills and talents?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, there's a reason I don't play professional basketball. I mean, there's like, of course it's going to be an inclination. There's going to be what you grew up doing, what you grew up hating. I think that for me, anyway, the challenge for us is to not assume that all of our things are on off switches, but that it's all kind of spectrum of skills. And as I think, you know, this guy, he's brilliant. Michael Roderick says, what are your white label skills? What are the things that you can take anywhere? For instance, let's take comedy, for example. Fun fact, I was taking comedy classes and starting to perform, you know, bringer shows when you have to Bring all your friends so you can get spot on stage. My very first show ever in front of a comedy club was the same week as the week I gave that TED Talk.

That's wild.

I had the most stressful week. Like it was my first time doing standup on a Monday. And then Thursday was the TED Talk. Like I was like, ah, I have a tight five and I have a 40, you know, a tight five and a 10 minute talk. And like these things are very separate. And that was a lot of things to do in a week.

That's a lot. Did you have any imagination that your TED Talk would go on to be viewed 7 million times?

No.

Can you imagine how nervous you would have been if you knew, if you, if someone told you, oh, no big deal, Terry, this will be viewed 7 million times?

No, I, I knew that there'll be, they were going to be like maybe two, 2,000 people there or watching. And so I said, oh, that's good. I did that. Let's see what's next. I didn't expect it to catch, but I'll tell you, I was more afraid to get in front of the 50 to 100 people at that comedy club than I was to get in front of people doing a TED Talk because I am more comfortable at conference type events. But here's, here's a for instance. I didn't learn comedy so that I could go on the road and be a road comic. That is not in my life vision to be spending my time in motels and staying up late at night. Kill me. Like, this is not the life that I want. But I learned comedy because I knew it was fun and I knew I could use it somewhere else. And I do a lot of public speaking and I bring those skills into the public speaking. And guess who cares? The people, the comedy club don't care that you do speaking at events. They could care less. They wonder when their next drink is coming. People at a conference, especially people who book for conferences, they see that you have worked as a comic or been a comic, they're ready to, they're excited because they know you're bringing something to that audience. So everything that you do, I don't think it's a failure of some people are special and some people aren't. It's more like, are you drawing on all of the things that you do and using them where you most want to use them?

Do you still have nights when you do stand up where you bomb?

Oh my God. I mean, I haven't done stand up in a While. Because of the book and the pandemic and everything else. But, oh, my gosh, I've done a joke. And you're like, that went nowhere. And then you just fix and move on. And also, no one cares.

And do you think that helps you? Cause I could see how that connects to sales, that if you get a no, you just fix and move on. Do you think that those. All those moments where you've said a joke and it fell flat? Cause I think that's everyone's biggest fear. I don't know. I'll speak for myself. The idea of doing standup is the fear that I'll say a joke and everyone will just be silent.

Absolutely. My very first set, the week of the TED Talk, I got up there and started with a joke I hadn't finished writing. Somewhere in my mind, I oh, the premise is funny. And people will just rise up and laugh with me. That didn't happen. My very first line, I don't even remember what it was. I was like, da, da, da, da, da, da. And I realized it was. I felt as if I had just dived off the stage and everyone backed away, and I was headed for the floor, and I was like, oh, my gosh. That didn't get. I didn't finish that joke. And I stopped. I said, you know what? That didn't quite work. Let's start again. And I started with the next joke. I got the crowd back. It's about winning that crowd back in that moment. I said, I just flopped first time out of the gate. No big deal. Fix it and keep going. Because they kind of feel for you, too, with this crowd of beginner comics. But you can bring the crowd back, but you cannot. I do not hang on to comments people made, whether they laughed at this or that joke. I'm moving on to the next thing. And I think part of the reason why I will be okay when the book comes out or when anyone else. There's a lot of people who commented under that TED Talk saying horrible things. I'm not reading them. So I'm just like, I don't take in information that doesn't serve. And I think that's a big book, because we were talking about is the critic. You're talking about the inner critic and other people.

Right? And sometimes other people are the most perfect embodiment of one's inner critic.

Oh, absolutely. They'll say things that you have been saying to yourself. When we hear the inner critic in our head yelling at us, railing at us, that is an internalized Critic that began outside began as judgment that we're either afraid of hearing or have heard. And so, yeah, oh, that's a big thing that gets in the way. But I never assume I'm supposed to be perfect. I assume people are not gonna. I am assuming I'm gonna get my share of hate mail if I'm lucky, if anyone. You know, when people read things, they watch things, they have things to say. But if you're going to be. Someone said to me, because I help a lot of people with speaking, helping them figure out their talks. And someone said, well, I am afraid. What if someone doesn't like it? And I said, oh, someone won't like it, but then I feel like I can't do it. I said, well, then you shouldn't do it. Because if you are going to decide whether you're going to share your ideas with the world on any platform based on whether you're sure everyone will like it, then you can't do it because you're going to get hurt.

There's also exactly the law of numbers there. I remember I gave a series of talks for these conferences for women, and there were a thousand people in the room, and I gave at least a handful of these several times over. And a whole slew of comments would come in. I love Jenny's style. She's so relatable. It was so practical, it was so inspiring. And in equal measure, there would be people essentially saying, she's too chill. You know, like, whatever. My vibe was like, too calm for this crowd. And so I would get like, I. I would say more of the comments that were saying, I love her style, her tone, her energy. And then equally, someone would go, I don't like her energy. And there would. There would have been no way in those feedback surveys that I could have pleased with. It would have canceled out all the good comments if I had addressed the other one.

But, Jenny, would you have changed it? Like, it's not like you bombed.

I don't think I can. No. I'm not going to be Grant Cardone, aforementioned.

Grant Cardone.

No.

This is who you are.

Like pulling out a wad of cash on stage.

Oh, my God, no.

With my private jet. No.

No one. But who not who cares? It's not like we don't care what people think, because we do. I do. But also, you know what? Everyone's got an opinion. And you know, you're not going to change who you are or how you present based on a few people who didn't like it. If show me Someone who does that, who morphs only to please the most people or the average amount of people, then you will have an average presenter or average thing to say. So the idea of being safe, you know, make sure that, you know, I don't get canceled, it's like, oh, my God, we can't. We can't predict what people will say.

I want to come back to the whole, the kernel of this chapter, how to stand out when everyone's pedaling the same stuff. You mentioned you didn't choose to become a basketball player. This is an ongoing question I have in my mind, and so I'm curious to hear your take on it specifically. Sometimes, especially for creatives, I think that we embark on a journey and if we're going to create something, of course there's intrinsic success and reward. Like a podcast is rewarding, because, Terri, you and I get to catch up for an hour. It's rewarding even if no one listens to this conversation.

Yes.

But of course, we're always going to have some vision in mind of the external success. I think many people wouldn't even dare to dream of a ted talk with 7 million views. And here you are publishing your first book. As much as you want to detach from any external markers of success, I think that the creative tension is that you go, well, I would love for my book to do well, or I would love for my TED Talk to make the impact that I know it can. And yet I don't know if this is a gremlin or it's just a question I have. How can I or any of us know whether to keep going and keep pursuing a certain impact or vision of that, those external markers of success and stand out versus cut the bait? Like saying, actually, I don't. I don't think I can't stand out in this way. I must not have nailed my unique combination of things yet. So I don't know if that's making sense. This is a question I've asked many times in different ways over the episodes of, like, pivot or persevere. Especially with creative stuff, especially where you want to stand out. But you don't know. We're not all Michael Jordan. This is like what I keep coming back to. How do we know when we need to tell ourselves, honestly, I'm not Michael Jordan. I don't know if you've had that with stand up with writing, with anything.

Yes. And I think for me it's, well, choose your metric. Because I didn't say, I'll do the TED Talk. And it better have 10 million views because if I said that and I'm at 7, looks like I didn't meet my goal, I, I tend to want to.

Manage expectations so that I have more of a chance of meeting the goals or, or exceeding them. So, you know, yeah, I'm a first time author. I have no designs. I'm thinking I'm all of a sudden going to shoot out and be some kind of famous author. This is in my mind, the first book. And it's the first step of a mountain of publishing that if I'm lucky, I get to keep doing. But that linear kind of zero sum. Am I successful or am I not? Yes. There has to be a point when you pivot if it's not getting what you want. For instance, if you're trying to sell, you're trying to get a graphic design firm going and you can't get any money and you have to give up your office space and you can't pay for anything, well, that's something different. But that doesn't mean you couldn't survive as a graphic designer on your own. It's the metric. My business, I run it basically by myself with the help of a few contractors. I never wanted 50 employees in an office in midtown and da, da, da, da. So I never fell short of that goal because it wasn't mine. It was, can I make a living doing this? Can I make even more of a living doing that? But I think what's hard about the external is because we think that there's one size container that you're supposed to fill with success. And that isn't, that's just, ugh. I would always feel bad then, like, for me, fine, I have a book. I was lucky enough to be one of the few people to get a book deal from a major publisher. My goal is, hey, I'd love to help them earn the money back that they invested. My first goal is not New York Times bestseller list. That would be great. Probably not happening first time out. But like, I'd like to be able to get that publisher their money back so I know that I could earn my keeper. That's step one, you know, when I have a year to do it, essentially. So don't you think we kind of have to ask what metric not am I successful? Am I not Here, Jenny. Here's another thing people say, like read this. Is am I a good writer? Should I bother with this or not? And I was like, if you don't, if you're that close to not bothering with it, don't bother with it like this. I'm gonna write a book and be famous or I'm gonna do this. And I just think it's too extreme. And we look at our friend Dori Clark plan in decades. Not did I hit this mark yet?

Absolutely. And I'll put a link to that conversation with Dorie about the long game in the show notes. I was laughing because we were talking about your launch process before we hit record, and you're like, come on, I'm not going to be four books shy of the New York Times list. Like, we were saying that sometimes you just. Authors need to relax this obsession with the launch day or even launch week or the launch month, and that it is such a longer journey. So both relaxing the metric. Like you said, 10 million. If that was your target for your TED Talk, you would have fallen short. Same thing if we make our time window too short. If you say, my book needs to earn out its advance in a week, I mean, that's a lot of pressure. I don't know. I've always found, even running a business, so many of the business bros will tell you you should. I mean, bros and women will say, oh, you need to have very clear metrics. But I find them so arbitrary. And then I'm constantly kind of falling short of them. And it's just. I don't know, maybe some people are very motivated and do quite well aiming for specific targets and then surpassing them. I find that they're just sort of arbitrary and they just lead to consternation.

So you don't do that either? You don't do it either?

No, you don't.

Okay. Because I don't have. Like, I'm like a moving target. Like, I tend to not have. Well, a better bit. Because imagine if I said, well, I want to. If you said, for free time, I want to sell this many books by this time. Well, I. How many things contribute that sometimes we just make wishes and pretend that they're goals and they're. You know, we say, oh, well, that's going to do that. Well, it might. It might not. I mean, we have no way of knowing.

I have book sale wishes for every book. I really do. Yes. I'll pick a number and I'll pick a time window. And then it's so random what happens and how. It's like I still pick it. But you're right, it's much more of a wish than a promise. And I think books, as anything, sort of take on a life of their own.

Yes.

And you can only do the best you can to create the best product. To hope people tell a friend when they put it down to go on a bunch of podcasts like you're doing. But at a certain point, you can't force people to buy the book if the genuine word of mouth isn't there.

But also, what if you said I want to sell 5000 books and you sold 5000 books or 4950 or something and you'd be like, okay, I made that goal. Does that change your day to day life? If you came within spitting distance of it within a year, within six months, or whatever your goal was, that's pretty great. I think that the picking of external random feels good. Sounds great. Metrics to me are not the path to meaning and value. If I, you know the goal, is that the message, whatever you conversation you want to be having with the world, are you having it? Is it yielding value? And do you feel connected to that, to that meaning? Does it feel good? It feels good to do that. Number doesn't actually move the needle on your life necessarily unless you're driven only by hitting those kinds of goals or metrics or numbers. I am not and you are not. It doesn't mean we're aimless. It means we use a different kind of metric. So maybe even metrics the wrong word. What is the measure by which you'll feel your efforts were worth it? Because you could speak doing stuff that you care about and never get paid for speaking. I don't recommend it, but some people would say, I believe in this so much that I have my income, but I want to do this speaking. I'll go anywhere I know when I'll have me. That person's not, not successful because they're not making a million dollars in speaking. That wasn't what they were doing it for. So we have to find some measure where we can, some way to measure our progress. But it doesn't have to be in money and it doesn't have to be in views. It can be in other ways and only we decide what that is.

As you're saying that the one thing that comes to mind. I had a great conversation with Josh Kaufman for free time. If you're building a system.

His whole vision around his book, the personal mba was a system to sell a million books. Then you hit a number which indicates that the system is working, that you can create this engine behind what you're trying to do that builds momentum on its own. And it doesn't take so much man or woman power. It's like it actually. There's a whole system powering things. That's where I can see those metrics coming in. Is the system working and where can I tweak it? Almost like getting laughs for a joke. It's like, what's the volume of the laughter? Can I tweak it? Am I happy with it? Just as sort of a gauge.

Oh, yeah. Every 30 seconds, by the way, when I would do my five minute set, you should be hitting a laugh every 30 seconds. You go for a minute without a laugh, it's dragging. So every. So I would see where are the high points of my jokes? And 25, 20 seconds. 30 seconds. That's a different kind of metric because you're getting the payment on that effort. But yeah, if you have a $2 million bookselling machine and the system works, that is a different kind of accomplishment, and it just isn't one that everyone's doing.

The last thing I want to ask you before we wrap up is something that so many people experience, myself included. You say in the book, look, we all feel the squeeze from time to time. I get jealous and nervous and competitive. Like anyone, it's normal and fine, but whenever I feel that contraction, that tightness that makes me worry that I'm behind or there's not enough for me, or everyone's better and I'll never blah, blah, blah, fill in the blank. This is the section you say. I make a point to push against that contraction. I take a big gulping, loose, lunged breath. Because when you're feeling tight, scared, or worried, you end up sipping air through a straw, which only makes you feel more panicky. This is a section on scarcity thinking.

I've always thought it curious that envy is one of the seven deadly sins, given how common it is to be envious or to be jealous or competitive or even compare and despair. And, you know, I. I think there's a way to be competitive that's like wishing ill on other people. That was never my issue. My issue would be what? Like when I moved to New York and I would go to yoga class and everyone at yoga in New York, it's like, oh, my gosh, just Broadway stars, professional ballerinas, like the bendiest, strongest, most flexible, most amazing, incredible people, and I would have the hardest time or. Or I'd be, I wonder if you've had this, Terry. I'd be, this is when I was single, had just moved to New York. It's like everyone who was hands are on the ground in downward dog, and they have these, like, huge diamond engagement rings that I would notice, like, sparkling my eye into my eye while I was in downward dog.

Oh, my God.

And it was so hard for me not to just compare, like, how flexible, how strong, how. How are their headstand handstands, what's the ring on their finger like, what are they wearing, what am I wearing? And obviously, yoga is all about the yoga of our mental presence and not doing that. But I was like, in those days, every class was just an exercise in comparison or feeling bad that I. My body didn't look the way they're there's dead or couldn't move like theirs did. And, you know, it's, it's subsided a little bit, but it still happens in all areas of career and, and saying, oh, maybe I should be farther ahead. Or, you know, I, I try not to think in this linear way, but I do think that it crops up even for the best of us. And I find it really helpful for people to talk about it, especially people where you or I might look and say they must never feel that way. Like, I even heard Joe Rogan talk about imposter syndrome on his podcast the other day, and I was really like, oh, my gosh. I thought, okay, he's at the pinnacle of podcasts and downloads, whatnot and listenership, even though he gets criticized by so many people at the same time. But I thought, okay, he's human, we're human, and I would just love to hear your take on this.

Seth Godin says in his book the Practice Shipping Creative Work, he says that he experiences. Not a direct quote, but he says he experiences imposter syndrome all the time. And what that tells him is he's doing the good, generous work of doing something new in something that feels a little scary. We're all gonna feel a. Like imposters a little bit. And by the way, the people who don't feel imposter syndrome at all, they're also not striving to be or do anything other than they already do. And they're totally cool with that and happy with it. The people who are always going to try to grow are going to find themselves in that imposter syndrome zone. But I try to allow myself a little room for that when I feel it. And maybe I'll write it out, I'll do a little critic exercise and be like, okay, so what are you worried that. Why don't, why don't I own. Why don't I own tank tops like that girl in your clothes? Why don't I look like that in My tank top, you know, I mean, we have to be like, okay, we see that, we feel it. What are we able to do? Because someone's looking at you, wondering why they can't do what you do. It just goes around and around. So, yeah, of course I look at people and be like, oh, I wish I was. Sounded like that, or look like that, or could do that. But then I just go, okay, well, that's great. I don't have time to worry about it. What can I work on myself? What can I do that has some kind of value? And when I feel the squeeze, when I feel that e that, oh, no, no, I'm not enough, I go, okay, what can I do to break this apart and open it up? Can I write to someone I haven't talked to in a while? Can I reach out and let someone know? I see them doing whatever it is they're doing. They're doing an amazing job so that I counter it. I kind of, like, flip the bird at the negative by being like, all right, I'm going to do some stuff that is more expansive that a jealous, terrified person wouldn't do, which is focus on other people's strengths, help them get somewhere where they need to be. And that helps because the actions prove out. I am not a scared, small, terrified person if my actions are different. And I make sure that the actions out step the fear.

I love that. I used to always quote Joan Bayes, who said, action is the antidote to despair.

Otherwise, we're just left staring at ourselves. And that's very depressing.

Right? And you're right that the jealousy spiral, it just doesn't go anywhere. It just doesn't lead anywhere. And I always appreciated people who told me, well, they're just an example of what's possible for you. And I thought that may or may not be true, but sure.

Well, it makes you pay attention. It does make you pay attention to, like, what. What appeals to you.

It does.

Okay.

Yes. What is our inner magnet saying? Ooh, that's really compelling. And I totally agree. It's like the phrase, a rising tide lifts all boats. That just. I love what you said about redirecting that consternation into action and just saying I am going to act generously even when I feel that scarcity mindset setting in.

Well, one last thing about the jewelry sales, which is that when we got to have a lot of reps in our area, people who were not as successful at selling were the first ones to say, well, we can't do this anymore, because the Market is saturated. And I said, why? Because we have 50 reps. Do you know how many people live in Massachusetts who wear jewelry? Like, the people who were the first to bow out were ones who assumed they needed an open plane and no one doing what they do in order to survive. Meanwhile, the ones who were really crushing it and earning a very good living were the ones at the top who were pulling other leaders up with them and supporting them generously. And those are the people who consistently made more. That's not an accident. So the idea that there's not enough for us or not enough for our talents or skills or abilities, and it's just not true. We do have to make the case for why someone should care about ours.

I love that you brought it full circle back to the jewelry. And as you were saying it, it's like, that's even harder than a creative pursuit to stand out because you're all selling the same product. So you're right. I could totally see that happening. I wonder, are some people seeing the writing on the wall like, we're so. Isn't it true? Didn't you see the Schitt's Creek episode where they sell and they're selling the olive? Ooh. And everyone in the room was like, oh, yeah. I was a district manager. Oh, yeah. I was this. Like, everyone had already climbed the ranks and been there, done that.

Yes.

Yeah. So I guess at some point it is good as well to go. Actually, this is saturated. It's time for me to innovate. Innovate or uplift, as you were saying, or move on. And we can't. But. But not to count ourselves out prematurely.

Not count yourself out. Realize there's, you know, there's a lot of people you could have bought jewelry from in 2008 or whatever, but it's. You can't but sell to everybody. You people pick their people, they pick people they want to do business with. And if you can be that person, it doesn't matter what you're selling. It just doesn't. So changing this topic or changing to that market, be wary, because you're trying to outrun yourself. And that's really where the potential lies.

So good. Thank you, Terri. This is so fun to chat with you. Let's give listeners one homework along these lines of how to stand out and tell us where we can find more about you.

Well, you can learn more about the book at. I'm no dummy. Unfollowyourpassion.com you know, I bought that domain immediately.

Way to go.

That'll take you to where all the book stuff is and there are special bonuses for readers. And of course just my name, Terry Despicio. No one else does have that name so it is easy to find online.

Awesome. Thank you so much Terri. I really appreciate you being here. Thank you everybody for listening and make sure you check out Unfollow youw Passion how to Create a Life that Matters to youo. Congrats again Terri.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to, and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.

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