269: 🏦 “I am not a bank” — Strategies for Getting Corporate Clients to Pay on Time with Joey Coleman

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It's not about devaluing your worth, it's about getting creative to figure out what are things that they might be able to do that will allow them to quote unquote afford you but create additional value for you beyond the hard dollars of your fee.

This is your time. How can we earn twice as much in half the time with joy and ease while serving the highest good? That is our guiding question here at the Freetime Cafe, your home for heart based business. I'm your host Jenny Blake. Join me for conversations with authors, friends and fellow business owners as we explore ways to free your mind, time and team to do your best work. Now onto today's show.

Welcome back Free Timers. Are you in for a treat? Today we have three peak guest Joey Coleman back on the pod at my specific request because he blew my mind when we were having coffee in person when he last came to New York City when he told me about his strategies for getting paid early and on time but never late from his corporate clients. Joey is an award winning speaker. He's been doing that for decades now, working with organizations around the world ranging from small startups to major brands like Volkswagen Australia, Zappos, Whirlpool. He's the author of two books, Never Lose a Customer Again and the more recent Never Lose an Employee Again. We've had conversations on both of those in earlier Free Time episodes that I'll put in the show notes and when he's not speaking to audiences around the globe, including nine keynotes already in January of 2024. He loves playing board games, building Lego sets and reading bedtime stories with his amazing wife and two young sons. Joey, welcome back to the show.

Jenny. It is an absolute delight to be here. I'm honored to be three peding on free time. You know, what more could one ask? And I am beyond excited for our conversation and thanks to everybody who's listening in. It's like you're here with us. Super excited for it.

Well, I always say that I want these conversations to feel like listeners are sitting having coffee with us. And when you and I had coffee you said to me I I don't get on the airplane and definitely not the stage unless all invoices are Paid in full. And this was something that I said, all right, you need to tell me more. And we need to hit record because I've been running my own business now. This will be coming up on 13 years. And the number of headaches and chasing corporate clients waiting five months to get paid, it's such a nightmare. But I never felt like I had the leverage to, to be the I.

Am not a bank badass that you are.

So maybe you could just describe like the before picture, before you had these boundaries in place. What were you allowing as a speaker?

Well, what's interesting, Jenny, is these boundaries. My awareness of these boundaries happened almost 30 plus years ago now when I was working with my dad. My dad was a criminal defense lawyer in a little town in northwestern Iowa. And early on in my work life, I. E Sixth grade was my first job. I worked for him that summer, and I worked for him every summer through high school and even in college, and even did some stuff for him when I was home on breaks during law school. And one of the things he taught me early on is he said, joey, they don't teach you this in law school, they don't teach you this in business school. But if you're going to have your own business, it is the most important thing you need to know. And of course, I leaned in and my ears perked up. I was like, oh, here's some pearls of wisdom from dad. What's he going to say? He said, you have to know how to ask for the money. And I said, well, what do you mean by that? He said, when you quote your fee, when you explain what it's going to cost, when you ask for the money, you need to do so with a level of confidence.

That eliminates any doubt about the price or that there needs to be a discussion about the price. And the more you can push through your own angst of oh, am I really asking for this much? Oh, am I really worth this much? Oh my gosh, do they have this much? All of that inner doubt, self talk, if that filters into your ask, you're going to have problems, they're going to doubt, they're going to be unsure, they're going to ask for different terms, et cetera, et cetera. Whereas if you ask with confidence and you state with confidence, knowing that the money you're asking for, you are going to provide a multiple of value on the amount you're asking them to give you. If you come with that mentality, if you come with that mindset, if you come with that energy, the Conversation changes entirely. Now, to be clear, Jenny, have I always done that? Absolutely not. As I raise prices, as I do projects that I've never done before, and I feel that internal trepidation and I feel that self doubt and that angst welling, I try to always come back to if I don't believe this project is worth it, then I shouldn't be charging this amount. And that has shifted my thinking.

I want to come back to some specific examples that I'll pepper you with. Can you remember a time or two where this went wrong? I mean, it's so brilliant that your dad told you this as number one advice growing up, you were already primed. Were there times where you forgot or you could just sense that you messed this up?

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. So for a while I was kind of in this pattern where I was charging the same amount year after year and never raising my prices. Now, let me be clear. I don't think you should raise your prices for the sake of raising your prices. But the practical reality is as your expertise increases, as your insight and capabilities increase, as the cost of living to be in society and run your business increases, there is a necessary expectation and understanding that prices will go up. But I was caught in a period where, when fairly early on in my speaking career where I thought, there's no way that I could charge more than this for the hour that I'm going to be on stage talking like, this is crazy. I'm getting paid so much for an hour. Now I realize now I was not getting paid that for an hour. I was getting paid for all of the planning, the travel to the event, the speaking, all of the travel home, the expertise, the reading, the research, the preparation that took to be able to deliver that speech. But I was kind of in this stagnated place. And so I made myself a promise. And the promise was that every time I would write a proposal and put together a contract, and this is when I used to send the price with the contract and let's flag that, and I can come back to that here in a second. But whenever I got ready to send the contract, right before I hit send, I would stop, I would go back to the original contract and I would raise the fee by 10%. And I made myself that promise that for 30 days, every time I went to send a contract, I would go all the way to the point where the email's written, the attachment is made, and as I went to hit send, I would go, nope, 10%. I would go back to the contract, change just the Pricing up it by 10% and send it. And what happened, Jenny, is they all said yes and I increased my revenues by 10%. And I realized that I was the one who was limiting the value of the work that I was providing.

And were you raising at 10% from one client to the next or just from one gig to the next?

It sounds like whatever I thought the price should be for that project, I would raise it 10%.

Oh, interesting.

If I thought that, oh, the thing they're asking me for is. And I'm making this up to illustrate the point, you know, a good price would be a $20,000 project. This is a $20,000 project for all the different things I'm going to do. Right before I hit send, I would go back and make it 22.

I love it.

Just that little tweak. The other thing I want to flag briefly on that is that's when I used to the first time they learned the price was from an email. I highly, highly, highly recommend that whatever business you are in, the first time your prospect, your desired client learns how much it's going to cost to work with you should not be reading a document. They should hear it from you. They should hear you say, this project is going to be X dollars. I do not do a pitch call with any client without saying during the call. Now let's have the conversation that I know you are super excited to have. What is the investment for us working together? And I consciously use the word investment. This isn't the price. Price is something you pay at the grocery store. Investment is something you are going to do to grow your business, to grow your operation, to grow your business, to grow your life. Whatever it is that you're trying to improve and grow and make better, you are going to invest with me to get those returns. And those returns are going to continue to pay you dividends long after this project has ended. So if you hire me to come deliver a keynote, you're going to get the Power of Me on stage. But you're also going to get all of your people learning new frameworks, new ideas, new methodologies that they will continue to use going forward forever, that you will continue to get payment on because they do those things and improve their business operations.

That's brilliant. I love the distinction between price versus investment and what you highlighted earlier when you were saying what goes into the investment. It's also the value to the organization. So I see a lot of speakers saying, oh, it's going to take me an hour to get there, or I'll be on stage for an hour. That doesn't really matter. Like in your case, if you're delivering something that's improving employee retention and keeping 5 people at the company and it would cost 50k each to replace those people and you're speaking to a thousand managers in the room, there's a certain value to the delivery of that information that has nothing to do with how long you're on stage or any of the logistics surrounding it.

Absolutely. And I think as a speaker or as a consultant or as a small business owner, you have to be clear on what the value you provide is and how it's going to impact. So for example, you mentioned, you know, speaking on employee retention, which is something that I do all the time. The keynote fee that I charge is $30,000 and then a $2,000 flat travel buyout and let's come back to that later to talk about, because that gets into chasing invoices as well. The $30,000 fee that you're going to pay me to be on stage for. I usually say this. We're telling all the stories here, Jenny. You know, this is the benefit you get from listening to the show people. I'm pulling back the whole curtain. The way I do it, many speakers will say, well, it's this fee for 60 minutes and this fee for 90 minutes and you want me for a day, it's going to be this. Mine is real simple. The hardest thing for a professional speaker is getting to the venue. Finding the time on my calendar and getting me from where I was to be with you is the most challenging piece. Whether I speak, speak for 30 minutes or an hour or three hours or nine hours, for me, the type of human I am, it doesn't make a difference. So if someone's going to bring me all the way to their event, why would I want to charge them more? To have me talk to their people more, to create more opportunities for their people to fall in love with me, to create more opportunities to deliver value, to create more opportunities to teach their people. Why would I want to financially disincentivize them from spending more time with me when I already did the hard thing? I got there. So what I always tell my clients is it's $30,000 for any amount of time up to four hours. So you want me to do a keynote and a breakout. Great. Done. $30,000. You want a 20 minute Q&A great. $30,000. You Want an hour long keynote and three one hour breakouts. Great. $30,000. It's the same price that makes it easier for them to budget and it makes it easier for them to get excited about having me do more things. Do a book signing, do a meet and greet, sit at a VIP luncheon and answer questions after the keynote. I will do all of those things because my theory is the more time I get in front of your audience, the more I'm going to be able to teach them, the more I'm going to be able to engage them, the more I'm going to be able to get them to adopt the frameworks and the methodologies and the ideas that I'm promoting, which will mean that they increase their business and see value for the investment. See earlier conversation and now the client is saying, oh, my gosh, Joey came in, fired up all of our people, got them all excited about taking care of their employees or taking care of their customers. And we've seen a sevenfold return on the investment with him within the first 30 days. Guess who's getting invited back to speak again? The guy who creates that kind of return on investment or the gal who creates that kind of return on investment.

Yeah, I do something similar too. I love how you put a bracket of up to four hours, let's say. But I agree, like, once I'm there, I want to attend the full day conference or at least everyone before me so I can weave it into the session and make it better and stay for Q and A, stay for a book signing. I think it helps them feel that they're just getting so much for what they invest. Now, if we go back to that phone call where you share the investment, tell me what kinds of reactions you get. Maybe some are just, oh, great, where do we sign? You know, they're really enthusiastic. Can you tell when a client thinks to them that sounds really expensive or you see their face, I don't know, change. Like, how do you deal with the different reactions you get when you put the investment out?

Sure. Well, a couple of things. Number one, you can find how much it costs to for me to do a keynote on my website. I don't hide my prices. Most speakers, you go to their website and it says, contact us to learn more about how we can work here, blah, blah, blah. On my website, it says if you want Joey to do a keynote, it's $30,000. Like, it's really clear. And if you want me to consult, it's this range. I understand that you may not be able to articulate specifically how much a client is going to have to pay you, but you certainly can give them a range, you certainly can give them an idea. So theoretically, if they've come to me through my website, they've already seen that if a lead comes in on our website on a form or somebody just cold emails us and we're not exactly sure, my assistant has an email that she will send out that says, you know, somebody just emails and they're like, hey, read Joey's book. We'd love to explore some different ways to work with them. She has an email that will go back and say, oh, Joey's super excited to connect. There's a couple different ways that Joey works with people. He comes in and he does speeches, blah, blah, blah. It looks like this. The value is this. The investment's $30,000. He does coaching agreements. You know, it takes this long. It kind of looks like this. The investment is $80,000, and he does consulting agreements. That looks like this involves this many people. And the investment is north of $120,000. Which of these offerings is most interesting to you? So that I can prepare Joey for the call that we're going to schedule now, what I found, Jenny, is that the people who have a budget of $500 email back and say, oh, actually, we only had a $500 budget, so we're not going to be able to work with Joey at this time. In which case I send them back a personalized message that says, oh, no problem at all. Thank you so much for reaching out. If there were one or two questions that I could just answer for you via an email that you were looking to get some help with, don't hesitate to send those over. And if anything ever changes in the future, know I'd be excited to strike up this conversation again. I have had clients come back to me eight years later and say, I didn't have the money or the budget then, but I do now. I'm ready to work now. The other scenario you mentioned is when I quote the price and I see on someone's face, even though they've been primed, even though they've heard it, I see them kind of react. Two things happen. Number one, I don't talk. And the reason I don't talk is all too often when we see somebody react, we start negotiating against ourselves, oh, it's going to be $30,000 for the keynote. And you see them kind of like hiccup on their face and you're like, but I'm sure there are ways we could figure out to discount it and make it more applicable for you. And let me tell you about some of the other things that we start talking to fill the space, the better bet is just to sit there and let them process it. Sticker shock is a real thing. It's shock. And that's why I try to avoid sticker shock by letting them know the pricing before, but letting them sit with it a little bit. What often happens is they'll say, well, you know, we were really excited to have you speak, Joey, but our budget is only $20,000. And I'll say, here's the deal. I've really enjoyed our conversation. Let's get creative. Are you willing to get creative with me and see how we can make it work with this $20,000 budget? Now, almost every human on the planet is going to say, yeah, let's do it. Great. Now they're bought in and our goal is aligned. Our goal is how can we get from their $20,000 budget to my $30,000 investment working together on the same side of the table instead of working against each other. And so I'll say things like, you know, a lot of the events I speak at have a budget for the gift bags. Do you have a budget for gift bags for your attendees? They'll be, oh, yeah, we do. Well, would you be open to buying a copy of my book for everybody who's attending so we could do the book in the gift bag? Oh, and then, by the way, let's have a book signing after my speech. Oh, my gosh. You would do that? Absolutely, I would do that. Now Maybe I moved 500 books. Now, is 500 books worth $10,000 to me? Yes and no. Do I make $10,000 from selling 500 books? Absolutely not. I'm traditionally published. That's not the way royalties work, friends. But is there a value to me to having my book sitting on the shelf in 500 offices around a national company? Absolutely. Is there a value to me that if we give out 500 books that I might get five or 10 additional reviews on Amazon that juices the algorithm? Absolutely. Is there a benefit that if they take my book home, their spouse or significant other or roommate might see the book in the house and say, that looks interesting and pick it up and read it and book me to come speak for their organization? Absolutely. It's not about devaluing your worth. It's about getting creative to figure out what are things that they might be able to do that will allow them to, quote, unquote, afford you, but create additional value for you beyond the hard dollars of your fee.

We'll be right back.

Just after this.

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I love the getting on the same side of the table with them. Like, well, are you willing to brainstorm together? Let's talk about invoicing itself. Actual brass tacks Getting paid now. Over the many years I used to send a 50% deposit on signing to hold the date and then 50% I don't even know. At one point it was after the event was complete. And then eventually I got wise to this and started just asking for 100% upfront because I wanted to get paid. And in some cases I had some nightmare scenarios of getting paid months after the event, which was deeply frustrating. And as you pointed out at coffee, that made me the bank. In some cases I was floating a global beverage conglomerate for five months, actually straining my ability to pay my bills while they're earning interest on the money that they should have been paying me. So tell us the actual tactics of like how you invoice in what parts and what do you do when a client claims? What is it our cost basis? What are the net 90? Net 120 Someone tried to tell me, right? Joking, paying 120 days after the event. So I want to hear what your process is that you share with clients and otherwise you won't work with them and any mistakes that you think people make or shenanigans that you hear these companies use.

So this has definitely evolved over time as my fee was coming up from $3,000 for a speech to $6,000 to $10,000 up until about $10,000, maybe even 12ish. It was a hundred percent upfront at the signing of the contract to hold the date. Because if someone is willing to pay a speaker $10,000 to come speak, they should have $10,000 in the bank the day they make that decision. They should not be relying on $10,000 in ticket sales from the event to pay for that speaker. That's my personal opinion, my personal belief. And that was the rule. And the rule was you have to have paid 100% in full 30 days before the event if you wanted me to speak. And so the payment was due upon receipt. And if they were booking, most of the folks that were booking $10,000 speakers were not booking now for 20, 26. Right. Those are bigger corporations that have, you know, multimillion dollar budgets. But what we would do is it was, you know, a hundred percent upfront when I moved into about the $15,000 range, you kind of moved to the next level of corporate budgets and how they're used to dealing with speakers in the world of speaking. It is pretty much agreed on that to hold the date on a calendar is worth 50% of the fee. A minimum of 50% of the fee. So when I say we do an initial deposit, told the day to 50%, no one ever bats an eye. And if they do bat an eye, they are not going to be a good client. And I should run the other way screaming, I should just take that as a sign that this is never going to work and run the other way. The second piece I do, which is different than many speakers, is the remaining 50% is due 30 days before the event. Again, I am not their bank. Once I have stepped on stage and given the talk, there is no reason other than their integrity. And if we want to get legal about it, the contract for them to ever pay me, let alone pay me in a timely fashion before I get on stage, they want to make sure that I'm going to get on stage. So I take the thing that they're most concerned about, will Joey show up? Will he get on stage? Will he talk when he's supposed to? And align it with my primary goal of I want to make sure I get paid for this talk. Because if I don't get paid for this talk, I've provided value. I've locked up days on my calendar and nothing ever happened. So that's what I set up and it's worked incredibly well. I think I may have shared this story when we were having coffee is what led to this. I worked with one of the largest companies in the world. World. This company is literally in the top 20 companies globally. Multi, multi, could you. Billions of dollars like crazy. And I had this policy and at the 30 day mark, 30 days before when their balance, the remaining 50% was due, I didn't get a transfer that day. I didn't get a wire or an ACH or anything or a check. Didn't show up in the mail. So the next day we reached out to them and said, hey, by the way, just wanted to let you know the payment was due yesterday. We're 30 days out, we need to get this taken care of. Point of contact, writes back, oh, I'm so sorry, accounting must have had that slipped through the cracks. Let me get back to them and talk to you and I'll get back to you with an update. About a week passes, still no update. I email the client again, hey, by the way, we're now down to three weeks before the event, still haven't seen any transfers. Just wanted to give you an update. Any word from accounting? The benefit of having it due 30 days before is they don't need to solve the problem that day. We've got a 30 day buffer to solve the problem. Well, long story short, as you can imagine, the way the story is going, I kept checking in, they kept making excuses, oh, we weren't getting done due to do. I finally said to the client about a week out, I am speaking in the same city the day before as your speech. Normally I wouldn't get on the plane if I hadn't been paid in full. But the benefit you have is you're going to get an extra 24 hours because I already have to be there. So I'm going to be on the plane. But you need to know that if this money isn't in my account or you don't hand me a check at the event, I'm not going on stage. And I'm not trying to be difficult, but we had an agreement of what I was going to do to contribute value to your organization and how you were going to compensate that value. Long story short, no money comes through. No money comes through. We show up the day of, I do the tech check that morning, I'm standing backstage and I have my bank account app open on my phone and I'm like, this wire needs to hit my account or I'm not going on stage. And the client now realizes I'm 100% serious. And don't you know it. Three minutes before they started the intro for me, my phone pings that there's been a wire transfer. Now, to be clear, I will not work with that client again because their approach to value and my approach to value are very different. And that's okay. They can have value aligned the way they want. But I would rather work with clients who see the transfer of money as the crossing of T's and dotting of I's. It's important, but it's not the substance that we're going for. The substance we're going for is the speech. The substance we're going for is the impact it's going to have on your people.

This is a wild story. Would you really have had the guts? I'm not questioning you 100% myself.

100%, Jenny.

Three minutes you're in the wings off the stage. You've done.

Really? Yes. 100. Because I'm never getting paid. I walk on that stage. And they have shown no care nor consideration for the experience they are creating for me as their featured headline keynote speaker. Do I think suddenly they're going to be better about taking care of me after that? Absolutely not. And what it also let me know, Jenny, is that my work was cut out for me with this audience. Because if this was the ethos and the way that this organization worked, I can guarantee they're creating horrible experiences for their customers. Why? Because they were creating a horrible experience for a vendor, for a consultant. This is something I tell my clients about some of my bigger consulting projects because I work with larger organizations. I always do 50% upfront, but sometimes I'll take the remaining 50% if it's going to be like an eight month project. And instead of making it all due 30 days before the end of the project, I'll stagger it out across the months. So, for example, I'm doing a consulting project right now for a large law firm. They're paying 50% upfront and then the balance is being divided into monthly payments over the course of the next six months. Benefit of that is I never get behind the eight ball where I've done work that I haven't been paid for. And it gets them into a pattern of behavior. Now, what's interesting is I had a different client not too long ago that we put this up and they didn't pay me when they were supposed to. So I sent an email to the client, I said, hey, by the way, haven't gotten the invoice. Oh, let me check in with accounting. I said, no problem. So, you know, we'll just skip our scheduled call next week to give you time to do that. And he was like, what do you mean we'll skip our scheduled call? And I said, we're consulting on how to create remarkable experiences. You cannot be creating remarkable experiences for your clients if your accounting department isn't committed to creating remarkable experiences by paying bills when they're due. So this is a teachable moment for all of us. Don't you know, it got sorted. It's amazing. And here's the thing. Some people, I want to acknowledge that as a white middle aged male, I come from a place of privilege, okay? I acknowledge that I also have been in business long enough that I can afford to set these type of terms. And if a client doesn't go for it, there will be other clients. But here's the thing. I wish I would have known. Jenny, that is true from day one in your business when you compromise what you need because a client says, well, we're net 120. No, you're not. You're net 120 on people who accept net 120. If your CEO wants to fly from in the private jet from California to Paris for a meeting, you don't go to the private jet company and say, send us an invoice, we'll pay it net 120. You go to the private jet company and they say, this is going to be $200,000. And you say, great, give us your wire information and you wire it across because it's something that's important to you. If our work together isn't important enough to you that you want to pay for it and pay for it based on the terms of the contract that we talked about in the pitch call. I also always talk about the payment terms. Not only do I talk about the fee, but I say, and the way this works is we do 50% up front to secure the date and 50% 30 days out when we have the pre event planning call so that we have everything set and ready to go for the event, 99 times out of 100 they're okay with it. And the 1% they're not. That is a beautiful warning signal to you as the provider to not do business with these people.

I believe you gave me that permission slip when we had coffee because I was describing some of these nightmare scenarios and you said, you know, you don't have to work with clients like that that treat you like that. So I'm wondering, with your gajillion dollar company that was paying you three minutes before you went on stage, did they try to hire you Again, because I don't know if I would have had the personal courage. Probably because as you said, in most cases I need the money, where I don't know if I would have the courage to say no. You know, like in my head, I didn't enjoy working with you last time, I'm going to turn down your next request. Even though I remember what a nightmare it was.

Yeah, would you do that?

Or did you turn them down after.

That particular client never came back? I think they knew, especially my point of contact, knew that this was just not going to be a long term relationship for either of us. And that's okay. But here's the thing. Would I have turned them down? Yes. Why? Because many times earlier in my career I didn't turn them down when they came back. And I always regretted it. It was worse than the first time. You know, there's this famous saying. When somebody shows you who they are, believe them. So when a client shows you the type of person they are, when they show you what their values are, what their beliefs are, what their ethic is, believe them. You have evidence, you've just seen it. If they're hemming and hawing about the fee, they're going to be hemming and hawing about the fee the entire time. If they're super anxious about, well, we're going to need to have X, Y and Z from you before you get critical, get curious, figure out what that's about. I had a client one time for a speech, they said, and Joey, we're going to need to see all of your slides in advance for approval. I said, okay, just out of curiosity, what's that all about? They said, well, we do that with every speaker. I said, no, I get that, I get that that's your policy, but what happened that made that your policy? And invariably in this case, the person got really quiet. They said, wow, no one's ever asked that before. I said, okay, is it okay that I asked, are you all right telling me? And they said, well, yeah, we hired a speaker. And they came and their slides had the logo of a different company on it throughout their slide deck. And here's where it got really interesting, Jenny. The point of contact said, and I looked like an idiot for hiring them. And I said, oh my God, I am so sorry. I am so sorry that that was your experience. I am so sorry that that speaker did not take their job seriously. I am so sorry that you had to go through that. I will tell you that as a general rule, and it says this in my Contracts that I do not provide slides in advance for approval. I am making an exception to that rule. I am going to keep that in the contract. But you and I have an agreement that I will send you the slides and we will review them during our 30 day out event planning call. You'll be able to see the deck 30 days in advance. While we're on the phone together, we will click through all the slides so that you're sure it represents you in the way that is in alignment with how you'd like to be seen within the organization. And the person almost started tearing up. They were like, wow, you would do that? I'm like, of course I would do that. Why? Humans need to get better at interacting with humans. We need to get curious. We need to figure out why is this thing that seems like an angsty, fighting, contentious point. What's the issue? When you and I talk about the concept of I am not a bank, why do we say that? Because you and I have both been used as banks by some of our corporate clients who have not paid us on time, who have not paid according to the terms, who have not lived up to their end of the bargain. The only way this behavior changes in our society, in my opinion, is, is if when people behave this way, we tell them no. We stop doing business with them, we stop helping them. One of the joys of being in business is you get to choose which clients you work with. And if you feel like a client's going to be a pain in the neck to work with, just say no, don't work with them. That's really okay.

And it's true that if you do say yes, the times that I've compromised. There was one time where I said yes to invoicing participants for a train. The trainer to each person's different cost center.

So it's a different voice.

Oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh.

Oh, my gosh.

All amounts. I know you know exactly what's going to happen.

Oh, I do, I do.

And this was after the pandemic, so I was trying to be flexible. And long story short, Joey, I could tell you exactly where this is going. None of the invoices were paid on time. And by paying a team member to chase them down over months and months and months, I spent more on her time than the invoices were worth. And it was a huge cost, Just a huge cost. Emotionally, it negated all of that income and it was a logistical nightmare. It was horrible. So I'm like, okay, I'll never make that Mistake again. But it's like in the moment, trying to be a good team player and accommodating. But there's a very real cost to the business that I always underestimate.

And here's the thing. I will accommodate you in terms of when I speak. I will accommodate you. If you want to have me speak during lunch, which is never a fun time to speak as a speaker, fine, I'll speak during. I'll make accommodations in certain areas. I will not make accommodation on you deciding what slides I use. And I've had clients say that. They're like, oh, well, we want to add a couple slides to your deck.

I've had a client give me a Google Doc, break down feedback slide by slide, thinking, oh, I'm gonna like revise your whole speaking deck.

And that's a whole separate conversation of when do you accept feedback and who do you accept feedback from. You do not have to accept feedback from everyone on the planet. I think you should care a lot about what a few people think. I want to repeat that because it was a phrase I heard years ago and I thought, wow, that's what I need to move towards. I care a lot about what a few people think, namely my wife, my children, my closest business advisors, my longstanding clients. After a speech, sometimes somebody will come up and say, oh, can I give you some feedback? And I'm like, yeah, that's what we actually created the survey for. And they're like, well, no, I was going to maybe just give it to you now. I said, no, I really appreciate that, but it's always better for me. And where I really take it in best is if you'll just complete the survey and share what you thought. We then review that. Notice what I just said? We then review that. Not I review that. We then review that. And we'll be happy to get back to you if need be. Or take those things under advisement for future speeches. Thanks so much for coming today. And then I don't look at the audience feedback. My team looks at the audience feedback and they help decide what rises to the level of needing to come to me. Why? Because artists struggle when they have to meet their critics on a regular basis. I don't want my creativity hampered by one person's feedback. And this happened to me all the time. Early in my career. I'd send out a survey after a speech and I'd get 500 responses. 499. Jenny would be five stars. This was the best speech I've ever seen. Oh, my God. Joey was World class. My only criticism is, you only let him talk for an hour. You should have let him talk for 50 hours. Do, do, do. And then there would be one review, one survey response that would be like three stars or two stars or one star. And I would immediately obsess over that one. And it would say something like, I really didn't like the story about the thank you note. And I would go, oh, my gosh, is the thank you note story broken? Do I need to replace it with a new story? But I liked that story and that story usually works, but it must not be working anymore. What do I need to do instead of realizing that this person just had an issue that day with that story? That doesn't mean the story's bad. It meant it didn't land for them. And so how you get feedback and where you get feedback from and how you do that, I think is really important. Going back to your invoicing, everyone's right, if that ever comes up again, here's the solution I came up with because I faced a similar problem early in my career. And then I came up with a solution. So the last time this happened, I had a mastermind group book me. And they said, joey, we're a mastermind group. We have 10 members of the mastermind. We want to hire you to come facilitate and speak for our whole mastermind thing. But the way we all work is we all have our own businesses. So I'm sorry, can you create an invoice for everyone? I said, you know what, normally I don't do that, but I can. Here's the deal, though. The invoice is on the same terms. The invoice normal terms would be 50% upfront, 50% in the signing. This project, we're going to change the terms because it's being split across everyone. The invoice is due upon receipt, and if the invoices aren't paid, I don't get on the plane. Now, two days before I was supposed to get on the plane, one of the invoices was still outstanding. So I called the point of contact and I said, remember when we talked about if the invoices aren't paid? She said, I know. And I said, and I've told you that this person still hasn't paid because I was giving updates. And she said, yes, and I've been trying to get a hold of them. I said, because we made this part of the deal, I'm not going to be getting on the plane. And she said, I'm transferring you the money Now I'll chase the money from them. I said, great, you're friends with them, you know them, they're part of your community. I have no idea who this person is. I think the opportunity for all humans is to get better about setting boundaries, stating those boundaries clearly. Because lots of times we love setting boundaries, but we don't like telling anyone what the actual boundary is and then it just gets messy and uncomfortable. So setting the boundary, stating the boundary, and then holding the boundary when it gets pushed against.

We'll be right back just after this.

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Have you ever had to not show up even to a virtual session or get on the stage? Has it come through even at the 11th hour every time?

They've always paid. Yeah, they've always paid. What I have had is I've had people sign the contract.

Not send the deposit. And then we go back to them and we're like, oh, where's the deposit? And they're like, oh, it's coming, it's coming, it's coming. And I'll say, well, the date isn't held until we've got it. And then we follow up three or four times and they just never even pay the deposit.

Oh, interesting.

So sometimes that happens where somebody has an idea of what they're going to do. It's also the case in my contracts that they're not refundable. So that's another interesting thing I do in my contract. If you pay me and something changes on your end, you get a credit for the future. Jenny, this was so valuable during COVID I had about 20 speeches that were on the calendar the first week of March in 2020 when the world started to shut down. And I proactively reached out to each of those clients and I said, hey, I know things are starting to get crazy. I'm not sure if you're still going to have your event in the fall like you had planned on. Know that I'm going to be willing to work with you on a reschedule at whatever time is convenient. If you decide you're going to switch and go virtual, we can pivot and go virtual. If you decide you're going to postpone till 2022, which I said, postpone to the future. My last pre Covid booked speech was delivered in December of 2022. Wow. And it was scheduled to be delivered in the spring of 2020. We carried it for two years. And I had one client come back and they said, well, we have asked all of our other speakers and vendors to refund the money. We expect yours. And I said, I appreciate that, but by the terms of the contract, that is not what is required, nor is it an appropriate request. We anticipated this in the contract. This was a provision of the contract, and I am willing to carry that money forward. And they said, well, I think our lawyers are going to have to contact you. And this is all via email, Right? Which email is so dangerous because we read emotion. Even the way I'm telling you this story, I'm imbuing emotion behind sentences that were written that I have no idea if that emotion was actually there. That's how I read the sentence. Ooh, we're going to lawyer up. We're going to get tough. I don't know if that's what they meant or if they were just like, oh, well, then our lawyers will have to talk to you. And I said, great, I'm actually a recovering attorney. I'll be happy to talk to your lawyers anytime. And then. But what I would encourage you to do is to send them the contract before I schedule a call with them. Guess what never happened? The call with the lawyers. But guess what did happen? That person, about six months later came back and said, hey, Joey, we're starting to think about rescheduling and figuring this out and due to do, we'd like to talk to you about dates. And what I realized is in that time, like all of us globally, they were freaking out. They were trying to figure out their job security, their health security, their family's well being. And I know because we had conversations much later that their organization was really struggling financially. And an edict came down from on high from senior management, go pull back as much money that we've paid in deposits on any contract, any project as possible. Because we need the money to keep moving forward. Well, I needed the money to keep moving forward too. And that's why I anticipated this in the contract. The thing I learned in law school about contracts is contracts are written at the pinnacle of the relationship. When everyone's excited about the project, when everyone's excited about working together, they're written at the high point. That's why we want to make sure there are provisions in the contract to address the foreseeable low points. Now, to be clear, if I can't make the presentation, they have a choice. Their choice is push it forward to another date or refund of any money they've paid. Now that's like if I get sick or I can't show up at the venue. But that's why I will move heaven and earth to make sure that I'm there, I'm ready to rock. And we deliver it.

Great presentation now because we put a pin in it. Can you briefly address the Flat Travel buyout before we close out?

Oh, you're the best, Jenny. Thanks so much for coming back to that. Yeah, so here's the piece that I don't know anyone on the planet that likes sending invoices for expenses. Let me send you an invoice for the cup of coffee I had in the airport, the Uber I took to the hotel, the room service I ordered. Due to do all of those things years ago, I went to a Flat Travel buyout. My flat Travel buyout covers my airfare, my ground transportation, both where I live and also in the city I'm going to, and all of my meals. Why? Well, the primary reason why is I don't like being owed money after I walk off stage. Because again, what's the incentive to get it paid? There's just, let's make this clean and easy for everyone. Number two, I don't want somebody who wasn't in the room, I. E. The most junior person on their accounting team, to look through my expense report, which, by the way, I've had to take time to put together because invariably they have a report style or a form or something they want it submitted in. And it's just administrative minutiae. I get why they have it, but for like a one time I'm coming to give a speech. It's a lot of learning curve for a very small, small payout. I don't want someone looking at it saying, well, we had an open bar with heavy hors d' oeuvres on the night before the keynote speech, and Joey ordered a salad in his room from room service when he could have just gone down to the open bar and heavy hors d'. Oeuvres. I need to disallow this expense or I need to push back on this. I never want to be in those conversations. So it's just a flat fee. And it's for context because we've been talking dollars. It's a $2,000 flat fee, which at that rate, across all the speeches I do over the course of the year, I about break even on buying a first class ticket, taking Ubers to and from the hotel, and any food I need to eat at the venue that is not part of meals that they have. You know, if they have a dinner that I go to, sure, I'm happy to go and eat their dinner that they've put together. And I appreciate the invitation, but if for some reason I need to eat while I'm on the road, that's covered in those expenses.

And it sounds like maybe they're covering the hotel.

Yes, sorry. And then the hotel. What I do. Thank you. Sorry for not being clear on that. The hotel bills directly to the master account. So what I say in the contract is $2,000 flat fee and the hotel bills directly to the master account. The reason I do that is for their benefit. Now, somebody might look at that and say, well, Joey, how is that for their benefit? Well, if I pay for the hotel, I'm going to want reimbursement. Of course. Makes perfect sense. If they have booked a venue and they have the ballroom and they have hundreds of their members or their employees attending. In most hotel contracts, when you book a venue, you get a certain number of free rooms as a thank you for booking the venue, they can give me one of the free rooms. So it costs them nothing. And as a result, everything's taken care of and I have no additional charges. In practical reality, the way that works, when I check in, I give them my credit card that covers any expenses like room service. And then when I check out, I get an invoice for, oh, you ordered room Service. Here's your $78 charge, Joey on your credit card. Everything else bills to the master account, which is the client's master account. And then Joey gets on the plane with no more need to create invoices. The project is done in the past.

I remember expensing when I first started as a speaker and it is a total pain. I also never wanted them choosing my flights and you have to go back and forth a hundred times.

Oh, my gosh, we have a preferred airline. Yeah, I get it. So do I. My preferred airline is Delta. I fly them all the time. And here's what I know. I've had flights where I've gotten off the plane and my phone has been ringing and I've answered my phone and it's like. Mr. Coleman? Yes. Hi, this is the diamond desk at Delta. We just wanted to let you know that your next flight has been delayed and we were worried about your connection. So instead of walking right now to gate G37, if you could write walk to gate B4. We've rebooked you on that flight and it'll get you there much faster than your original one. When you fly as much as I do, as much as many of our speaker friends do, as much as you do, you, you have loyalty with an airline, they're going to take care of you. So in all of my contracts when I fly internationally, lots of times the client will say, oh, because the flat travel buyout is only for Continental, for North America, us, Mexico, Canada and the Caribbean. If I'm going international to Europe or Australia or something, then the contract says a first class seat on Delta Airlines. It specifically says the airline. And I've had people push back and say, really? On Delta? And I'm like, yeah, because you know what, if there's a problem, we want to make sure I get there. And that's going to guarantee that. Your biggest fear and my biggest fear, what if Joey can't get here physically? Never happens.

Toward the end of my speaking gigs, I say the end and had any in person in a while, but I was at one point even working the travel stipend into the fee. So I would say it's 20k all in or 30k all in and I cover all travel expenses. Is there a reason not to do that? To just build it in?

Yes, I did that as well. And the reason I switched is in most medium and large corporations, there is a budget for speakers and there is a budget for travel and they like it that I split it because I don't eat money. That they could spend on other speakers. Then got it when I bifurcated into the two. They get excited about doing that because then it's like, oh, well, you're not chipping into our event budget. My belief is the secret when it comes to thinking about invoicing or how you're structuring your deals is to think about how do they handle finances. Do they have a gift bag budget? Do they have a training budget? Do they have an event budget? Do they have a travel budget? Great. Now we can split my fee across a bunch of different buckets on their end internally. I don't do this with the invoicing, but I set up the invoice in a way so they can pass it to a bunch of different cost centers and get it accounted for on the ledger in a way that works for them.

Is there anything I missed asking you about that people should know in terms of invoicing, especially corporate clients? The lessons you've learned the hard way? Do we forget any of the big ones?

I think we've covered so many of them. I'll throw one other little thing that, oh, it has helped us so much. When we send the invoice, we send the W9. Now, if you know anything about taxes and accounting, anytime a business pays an outside vendor, they have to get reporting information for the IRS about that vendor's ein number if you're in the US or you know, their kind of Social Security number if you're solo operator, those type of things. We send that with the invoice because that first invoice, when it gets sent to the accounting department, if they attach and log that information in, then it avoids them sending me an email in January of the following year saying, we're trying to get all of our taxes done. We need your W9. So it's a little thing that saves you administrative headache later. Just presume they're going to ask for it and send it with the invoice.

I love it. Mine's linked from the bottom of my invoice.

Brilliant.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Have it ready for them. Make it super easy. That would probably be the big takeaway, Jenny. Make it easy for people to do business with you.

And that's so consistent with both of your books.

Yeah.

Which is like no buyer's remorse. Yeah.

Make it easy for people to give you money. You want to give me bitcoin, you want to give me a wire transfer, an ach, you want to send an old school check. I've had clients say, can we pay you in cash? Yes, you can pay me in whatever way works for you as long as I'm paid 30 days in advance of the speech.

So good. So, Joey, if you could give a third permission slip to free timers to do something differently or drop something altogether, what would it be?

It is unbelievably challenging to start your own business. It is unbelievably daunting to run your own business and to continue to do the things that put you in the rarefied air of being an entrepreneur, of being a business owner, of being somebody, a freelancer, someone who has taken the leap and said, I, I want to approach my professional career and my work life differently than the mass of humanity has done for millennia. I want to do it differently because you are so bold and so courageous to do that. Give yourself permission to courageously set your boundaries, to courageously say, if you want to work with me, this is what it requires. The more clear you are on that, the more comfortable you are articulating and expressing that, stating what it is, and then if pushed on it, holding firm, the happier you will be as a business owner and the longer you will actually be in business. Because people that want to work with you will clearly know where they stand at every point in the relationship. They will know your expectations and they will feel more comfortable stating their expectations, which will allow you to deliver a remarkable experience to them as well.

So beautifully said. Thank you for being so generous with us with all these tips and tricks, starting way back from your dad's sage advice. I appreciate this so much. I feel like this is one for listeners to bookmark and come back to over and over until we drill it in.

Oh, thanks so much, Jenny. It was a pleasure being back on the show again and again, all of you listening in, thanks so much. If I can never be of service, never hesitate to reach out to joeyoeycolman.com you can find me there. And happy to be of service and just love, love all the work you put into the world. Jenny, you are an amazing human and I'm honored to have you as a friend.

Likewise. Thank you so much, Joey. Big thanks for everybody listening.

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