272: Love It or Leave It with Samantha Clarke

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For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello friends. I am thrilled to be here today with Samantha Clark. Samantha is a happiness consultant, TedX, and keynote speaker. She's the author of Love it or Leave how to Be Happy at Work, a book that first launched in the UK and then recently came out stateside. Samantha is on a mission to help individuals decide whether to love it or leave it and get to the crux of what it means to work and live with real meaning to purpose and intention. She also has a fantastic podcast, Love it or Leave it and one of the best, most soothing podcast voices around. So Sam, welcome to the show. Hi.

Hi, hi.

Hi.

How are you?

There's so much talk in the US about the great resignation. I'm curious what's happening over in the uk. Is it similar conversation around career change in the current times we're in?

Yes, definitely. I think that a lot of people have had time to reflect and question a few things and I think both sides of the coin are realizing some of the errors of their ways. I think from an individual perspective, maybe we have been really questioning the quality of our lives, the quality of work that we're doing, the quality of the purpose and the intention that we had in the work that we want to do. It can be navigated, but it does take work on both sides for people to sit and question, you know, what are my goals? Is this company aligning to the goals that I'm excited about? Can I see myself here? Can I see my future here? If not, am I taking the agency to ask those questions with my manager? And actually from the managerial point of view, I support leaders and coach managers on what they can do to really own more of a stronger relationship with their teams and to find out what people are really curious about and who they want to be at work and how work can support them to do that. And I think if we're not having these conversations on both sides, people, more people will leave, companies will lose good talent and and so on.

One of the main questions you ask in your TED Talk is are you ready to break up with work? And I think then this question of love it or leave it, the title alone is making a statement, Love your work or leave it. You might need to break up with your job. And I think that it's obvious people kind of know when they are not happy. They are not in love with their work, but maybe they're staying for financial reasons. What I find interesting are those who generally like their work and yet they feel a sense of golden handcuffs. They like their work and they love the salary and yet there is a small part of them wondering if they should go out on their own. So how do you coach people to love it or leave it? When they have a strong like with their work, let's say, and they love the benefits and compensation, but they're still getting a little bit restless.

So I think this is real crux of my work, right? So I have two pathways helping people to make the changes with love it, leave it, or to be the change in terms of being a change maker. And I think that when it comes to really questioning yourself about your work, I think there's a couple of things. I have no issues with people loving their work. You know, I think there is all too much rhetoric that we either need to quit jobs to become entrepreneurs and actually entrepreneurship isn't for everybody. And so the question is, you know, what beyond your work are you excited about? What are some of the areas that really fill you with joy? That even though you love work, maybe there's other things you want to start tinkering with on the side. And I say in the book, you know, that work isn't supposed to be all encompassing and that kind of all enduring love. You know, it might be in the same way that we have relationships. Your partner isn't like your hundred percent. You will probably get other values and insights and inspiration from friends and family members. But there, there's a core that really keeps you together. And you shouldn't ignore the essential prongs in your job that really do have a grip on you if they are truly positive. Sometimes we stay in things because there is a fear of letting go or a fear that we won't find anything else or perhaps we have some familial messages in head about what we can achieve, what we can actually become. The roles that we are maybe conditioned to understand because that was in our family structures and the roles that feel alien and we don't even know how we'd get into doing that and question whether or not that fear is something that you can start to test the waters with on the side. You know, broaden your network, speak to new people about, really interrogate and understand. Am I just staying here because it's comfortable and I don't want to get uncomfortable or actually if there is something that I love about my job, I want to 10x somewhere else. Could I do a little side horizontal move? Or what other industries might give me the same kind of excitement? Or actually do I just make peace with the fact that I'm happy and I don't need to join the conversation where I hate my job, but actually maybe I just want to try other hobbies which don't need to con into work or a business.

I know you've studied positive psychology and happiness research and you know how we all have a somewhat of a happiness set point. I heard an interesting question or conundrum on a podcast the other day where she said that she was, let's say she was 50% happy at her job, but she felt unsure that if she were to change, maybe she would just be 50% happy somewhere else. And that it can be so hard to know whether it's the job and the role and let's say the current company that a person is in. There's no guarantee. Of course you and I know this, this is what we've been studying for years. But there is no guarantee that going over to a new company or let's say a new person, let's say in intimate relationships that you won't just have another set of problems. How do you help people discern whether it's them and they just need to kind of do the work and work on their own happiness or when there is actually an external change that would.

Would or could be helpful, knowing there are no guarantees.

Yeah, great question. I remember reading a statement from Neil Gaiman and he talks about, you know, we need to be realistic or honest with ourselves, that wherever we go, we take ourselves with us and we take our own thoughts and insecurities and pain points into any new situation. And so we can't always help to have this. We have, we hope to have this really optimistic vision that everything's going to be brand new when we make a leap. And actually your reactions Your behavioral patterns, your, the way that you enter into relationships, the triggers that affect you in some of the teams that you might have been, they can come up again in brand new scenarios that maybe you've never even faced before. And so in my book, in the Love it side, there is a process where I, I ask people to really think about. Is it the, the people, the role, the sector that is really kind of irking you? And this started from, I used to teach career potential at the school of Life. And, you know, oftentimes people would just have a very vague idea about just work is really stressing me out. Or I, I don't think that this particular role is taking me further. And I said, you know, now's the time to get really granular. What is it about the people that you're working with? Have you really navigated or understood the relationship styles or the communication styles of the people that you work with? And what work could you do to. To think about how you might show up differently? Because when we make a change, you know, it has a ripple effect on those around us. Okay, so if it's not the people, what about the role, the tasks and responsibilities? And how can dig a little deeper and think, you know, what is it? Because maybe this is a strength and skill misalignment. Am I overworking certain strengths? And actually this is making me feel exhausted or I don't feel like I'm growing. And then is it maybe the sector? You know, this has been a really interesting time for people in jobs where businesses have suddenly gone out of action and other businesses are thriving. And maybe you want to move in something that feels a bit more fast paced. So taking that time to think, if I do make that leap to the other side and I think the grass is greener, what is it that I'm actually searching for? And have I done the self reflection and the self awareness piece to think, okay, if I have to navigate similar problems that I'm trying to escape now, how will I handle them better?

Yeah, I love that. And I also say in pivot that decisions are data. Sometimes you do just need to shake up that stagnant energy and start making the change. And it may be an interim pivot. It may be the case that the next thing is not the Holy Grail either, but you learn and you sort of can get out of the inertia of where you are now, because you're right. Sometimes just the thought of change alone is overwhelming because it just takes so much energy and effort. And.

So once the first change is made, the rest can kind of cascade. I think the next ones come a little easier. Yeah.

But I think it is putting that stake in the ground and just say, you know, I do want change for these reasons and I feel solid about it because like you said, I've collected the data and I'm a bit more aware they're either on one end of the scale, too scared to even start looking because it all feels too much, or they're applying for things in such a scattergun approach just to escape without really thinking, okay, why? What am I running into? What fire am I running into?

How long have you been self employed now?

I have been working for myself since 2011.

Okay, so similar, same as me, 2011. I thought it was so interesting before we hit record, you were saying you also apply love it or leave it to your own business that just because you're self employed, which a lot of people look to as sort of the ultimate freedom and optionality of what you can work on with whom, when, how much you're earning at a certain point. But your own business is not exempt from the love it or leave it process. So I'd love for you to take us to kind of even where you are now. How do you do an inventory even within the container of your own business of saying, do I need to break up with my work or some of my work?

Yeah. So I think if I'm going to write about something, I definitely want to be able to. To say that I have used this personally. So love it or leave it was really crucial for me. When I think about how I moved from, you know, advertising, footwear design, styling, you know, into coaching, into becoming head of happiness in a company and then like starting to be on my own doing this work. And I also have sickle cell anemia for me, so my health is, is always shaping my decision making around how I build my business as well. And I think that it's a powerful reflection piece for me to think and look back at the end of the year. What did I love doing? Where do I have the most energy and where do I feel really invigorated? What type of clients like surprise and delight me each time? Where has the work become monotonous? Where do I feel actually I'm ready to leave that? What is taxing on my health as I get older? I turned 40 last year as well. So for me there is that piece of okay for the next if. If this is like a good decade now where I'm stepping in and I'm owning other areas of my life and I'm owning other passions or I'm finding passions I want to resurrect. Is this business taking me towards that? So last year I definitely had a bit of a reckoning when it came to parts of my business. I think also, you know, some significant death of friends made me question, am I really happy doing certain quality areas of my work? I love giving talks, I like the dynamic of serving a group. And I am also really passionate about learning. And I think I wasn't, I was acutely aware that I hadn't been learning anything beyond the business of coaching or the business of business building, which never goes away because, you know, any entrepreneur will tell you there's always new things to learn about selling and marketing and curating packages. But I was like, what about me? I felt a little bit starved. And so that has been my quest, to kind of leave behind what doesn't serve me, to move towards creating this space so that I can study more. So I have started training towards psychotherapy. I've always been curious about the, the blurred boundaries between therapy and coaching and how that can support leaders and individuals to make better choices. And it's a decision that I had put off since 2014. I think I mentioned to you I applied and I was accepted, but for some reason I was like, oh no, I feel like I'm too young to do it or I don't have any experience or how am I going to use this in my business? And it was just the passion of learning. And I've always had this passion. And I think I put thinking I was learning in a new way in my business first for a long time. And it was my friend that sat me down in the summer and says, sam, you've always wanted to do a PhD or do some studying and you haven't done it. So now it's either now or it's never. Like we're not getting any younger. And so the love it, leave it framework for me was like, okay, so I love the keynotes. I love creating training. I probably, I'm trying to think about how much I love one to one coaching. Is that falling down the list and thinking about workshops and other things like that? And it was just looking at where the revenue came from. So again, collecting my data, where's the revenue coming from? What, what's the, the happy happiness factor for each thing? What, did I learn new things about myself or did I learn new things? And for me, that knowledge and wanting to start training again was like, okay, that will Help me fuel and create better keynotes. It also helps me create better trainings. And those are the things that I love the most. So. And I feel like I'm just devouring lots of new books and learning new things in new ways. And I feel like Happy Sammy again.

Happy Sammy. I love that. I know going back to school is so satisfying because they assign all these niche books like, oh, the reading list just makes me drool. I want to come back to the art psychotherapy, which is just amazing. When you were saying the things that you decided to leave in your business, can you give us a few examples? What did you. What came up in the leave it column that you were able to stop doing?

So I have had a really interesting relationship with social media, and I know that you also have steered clear of.

You know, the grumpiest grump about it.

Oh, my God. And I just, I. I think I stopped fighting with myself that I'm just not good on that. So it's like, how can I outsource this to get somebody else to do it in a way that feels aligned? But I just, I'm just not. So I think that's something that I'm still making peace with. But I. I let go of the guilt and I let go about how much I was trying to do. So I let go of some channels. I. When I think about the work as well, it's really streamlining how we were doing, like business development and the kinds of things that I actually wanted to sell first. I think I was trying to sell everything, like, because, you know, for me, being in front of different people means I'm learning, right? So I was like, I wanted to do the one to one because you get that real intimate. But I realized that the joy came so much from group environments. So there was less promotion of that work and more promotion of keynotes and group training or group workshops predominantly. So this year that's like the focus.

When you think about going back to school, which you're currently doing, and Happy Sammy has returned, even looking ahead to a PhD. I'm curious how you think about currently as a business owner, knowing that school itself requires investment. And then also, you know, I know we talked before we hit record of sort of, can the business support you through school? What would you do afterward? I think a lot of people when they're in transition have very real concerns about how to support themselves. And I know you recently did a podcast on investing in yourself, which you are doing. But for some, it feels very tricky or precarious. If I Invest my time and money and energy in a PhD. Will it support me on the other side? Or I'm curious how you wrap the business around that. How do you think as a business owner, how do you build the bridge to support yourself in that process?

So I totally think that it is the latter. Like right now I am really focused this year on thinking this is the kind of revenue I want to make. This is where I want to keep the expenses low and this is what I hope to kind of have in the business to take me through and then also to set up a funnel almost where I can do maybe a couple of signature talks a month and then that gives me the baseline income. I have looked at my theme as well and really started to question how things are evolving in the space and in the future of where we're going as well. And there's a lot of things that I'm excited about. I'm excited about, you know, psychotherapy and, you know, assisted psychotherapy with psychedelics. I'm excited about how we are using VR in mental health and well being and coaching and development programs. So nothing in my business is going to go to waste. It's all kind of being woven into the fabric of what I'm choosing to study, which, you know, some of your listeners might say, well, obviously that sounds like a really intelligent thing to do, but I'm thinking about doing food with da da da da. And I'm an accountant right now. I think you've got a way up like at the end of this, what do I truly want to do? If it is a complete career pivot and a complete change, then it's, it's creating. You know, I know you use this as well, really thinking about what is your financial Runway in all of this. And I know that I want to be able to, to support myself and to live. And I'm not getting any younger. And if it means the next three years there might be a dip for me to then springboard forwards, I'm up for that. And I'm laying the foundations and talking about this a bit more in my work now so people get comfortable with it. And I'm road testing some of the things that I am learning throughout my foundational year with clients that I'm working with now as well. So they're starting to warm up to it. So I'm seeding before I'm fully qualified so that at the end of it they'll be like, oh, okay, we want more of that versus it just being a really like you're A what now? And I'm like, well, so I'm kind of working in both ways. I am really trying to roadmap a way that is sustainable and scalable for me this year. And thinking about courses that I might sell, and then as I. As I go through to study, it's like, what are the cherry pick activities that I can do that could give me the highest return for the least amount of time?

Yeah. And I love how you're describing this tapestry you're weaving as well. And whether it's a tapestry or a beautiful quilt, or if we think about cooking a dish, a stew, it's like all these flavors are mixing together. And it's also what makes you so interesting and unique. I mean, even hearing your experience with sickle cell anemia and the perspective that navigating that throughout your life brings, with your interest in psychotherapy, with your interest in arts and fashion and doing things with your hands. So what I have found along the way is every time I am transparent with my community about what new random thing I'm interested in, it just is more interesting for them. Like, when I went to seminary school, people were like, what on earth? What? Where did this come from? But that's so cool. Like, there's. I think. I think we're so multidimensional and we sometimes think that the world will perceive us as crazy. But actually it makes each person, I think, more interesting to follow all these random threads without, of course, being what my friend calls a career Roomba. Like, just bouncing off different things, you know, every time you hit an obstacle.

I totally agree. I love that. I think if I haven't got the freedom to tell people, like the other day I was talking to a potential client and, you know, I was talking to her about some training that we could do, and I mentioned, you know, I just slipped it in there. I was like, oh, I'm doing some training around, you know, art psychotherapy. And so she's like, I think that would be great to weave in with. Like, then I didn't even have to say anything, but, like, in her mind, she was like, tell me more. I think it'd be great if we wove in this, this and this. And I was like, yeah, you know, and in a couple of years I'll be fully qualified so I could be an in house. And she's like, I love this idea. So sometimes people might catch you off guard and you think they're going to be like, this doesn't work, or, why are you telling me this? Or they connect the dots for you. And I think, you know, one thing that's also come up for me as well is yes, you mentioned, you know, with my sickle cell. For me, managing chronic pain throughout my life, I didn't realize I was actually doing my own form of therapeutic work through arts and through being creative. And you know, now I'm seeing it all laid out for me how medicinal art is and how we can't go too far into just the tech world and forget the natural creativity around us or our unique creative skills and kind of see how we merge the two but not getting submerged or lost in that. So I think for me there's definitely looking at how, how I might support people with chronic pain. That's something that's definitely not to do with corporate world or career change, but that's a passion for me because I know that a lot of people struggle with different types of pain and how that can help to support them to grow and to work through it. So there's other things that have surfaced for me that feel passionate. I haven't figured out how to monetize that or if it is something that I monetize, but I don't know.

Yeah, well, those are the clues, right? And I think it's so interesting too to realize sometimes the things that we're so close to in our own lives, like you having to navigate chronic pain, that was the facts of your reality. You might not have perceived it as you were getting a front row seat or a PhD in pain management or self care wellness, things that because of being more sensitive to the world around you, you had to make some tough choices or put these practices in place. And I also think this thing of love it or leave it, I always say the universe has me on a short leash. Like if I get too off track, my body like slams the brakes. I just can't anymore. I can't do things that aren't aligned. I get instant feedback in a, in very dramatic ways that just prevent me. So I think if you're, if you have also dealt with health things, you know, it's just that you just can't necessarily power through it unconsciously.

One thing that you just mentioned there is really powerful as well. I had time over the summer, maybe through the stillness of thinking about passings and people that I love no longer being here, but really listening to my intuition again. And I got into human design through a friend and it turns out that I'm a manifesting generator. And I'm not sure what you might be, but the powerful Generator.

I don't know too much about this world, but generator.

Yeah.

You could tell people what. What you. What you know about it. It'd be interesting.

Well, I think for me, it really opened the floodgates to understand why I am the way that I am in that a manifesting generator is somebody who, you know, can manifest and vocalize lots of different things that feel out of this world or whatever, but they have to really check in with their gut before they go full in, because the generator part of them can get up and running and create something out of nothing, like in a heartbeat, and can really be productive delivery, get things done. But the. The worst thing for. For those individuals, the Generator and the Mangens, is that if we have been running really fast in the wrong direction, we will feel it at some point and there will be this deep not, well, resentment sometimes, but also, like you said, a clarification in your body through sickness. Or maybe it's just like, no, that you have gone too far in the wrong direction. And I think for me, I can get up, I can create really quickly. I can get in. Got an idea. Great. Make it work. I love my work as well, so I will go as far as my body can take me. And I think over the summer, when I sat down and really listened to what my gut was saying, I think for a long time I had been running really fast on things that, you know, just keep going in the same direction. You keep going, doing the things because it's working and the wheels are turning. But fundamentally, mentally, my gut was like, this isn't really, really the way that we want to go, or we want more creativity. We want you to do something else right now. Are you ready to turn this wheel or not? And I think I've been really trying to listen a little bit more to my gut. And we gens and Mangens have to get a distinct hell yes on the things that we're doing, because if it's a hell no or a mediocre and we push forwards with it, it's never successful. So I think that's another steering rod for me over this year as well, is to really listen to where it's a hell yes and where perhaps I'm forcing the yes, absolutely.

I had this funny experience yesterday. I don't know why. Anyway, I finished a podcast interview, and at the end she said, what's your one piece of advice? And I said, go with your gut. And then later that night, Michael and I were watching a video interview I did with a friend because I want the same friend is going to interview me when free time comes out. And it was from 10 or 11 years ago. And he said, what's your one piece of advice? And I said, go with your gut. And I'm like, oh my God, nothing has changed. It's the Same advice for 10 years, go with your gut. And what you're describing is so important of you can. Things can be working but not resonating at a soul level. So it's really hard to get off that train, especially when it's a train you built or the tracks you built, like, let's say for you and your own business. And yet this thing of go with your gut, listening and following, it takes so much courage.

Definitely. Especially when, like you said, everything's, the engine's moving really fast and also everyone else's expectations that you should, should want to stay on the train. Why are you, why are you pivoting that way? It's the same with leaving a job. You know, sometimes we might know in our heart of hearts we should have left a job a while ago, but everyone's like, oh, you couldn't leave that really well paying dentistry role. Why would you do that? You know, that's, that's not quite right. Or you work so hard to get that promotion, you should stay. And the intuition in the gut is just so powerful. And I think for me, I'm really trying to pay attention to that and also to try and quiet the inner voice that is like, you've poured a lot of investment and time into this direction. Are you ready to let it go? Because there's that niggling voice as well. So I think it's always a balance. But I'm choosing to lean more into gut and heart this year than head.

And I want us to say too, I'm sorry for the loss of your friends. It's just. Thank you so, so much to process and amidst tremendous global upheaval. At the same time, one of the changes you made was also moving out of London to the coast. And I was wondering when that sparked for you, when you knew even your physical location needed to change.

I've known my physical location needed to be disrupted a while and I was on the verge of doing a big disruption and change to my life in 2020. But pandemic had other plans, so it's felt delayed and I felt really stuck. I was in, I was in quite a nice flat, don't get me wrong, but I just didn't have any outdoor space and being in the kind of immune compromise Category I was indoors for it just. It was a long time on my own and I was just like, I can't do this anymore. Like, I just need. I need a bit more nature. And I don't know if city life is for me. The congestion was starting to affect my chest and. And a friend of mine, we had been to California that January and the plan was to move to LA by the end of the year. And then obviously whatever Covid and she came back and she said, oh, do you know what? I'm gonna. I think I'm leaving London. I might look at some other places like Hove or whatever. And she discovered this, but she's like, it's kind of like Santa Monica, but it's not. So she's like, maybe we could get our fix there. And then when it's time to kind of think about going abroad and I went down to visit her a few times, I was like, okay, this space looks. It's kind of cool and it's by the coast and it's a bit more independent and different. And so I was like, okay, fine. So I was looking for property and it almost didn't pan out for me because the place I wanted to get was just lots of issues with it and I just thought it's the universe telling me that this is not my move. But in the end I managed to. To move in November and I've just been just so much calmer. I feel that the clarity and the cleanliness of the air. Just being by the sea every day and, you know, making my. Making a habit to go and look at the sea and look at the water, it just calms everything down. All the things that you think really matter and that you worry about. You look at the scene, it's just vamoose, gone. I've been going for lots more walks and I have a few other friends down here as well. So just spending time connecting with people. It's a bit hard in winter because everyone's kind of cold and indoors, but I'm sure I'll be making the most of it. But for me, there is definitely something about being away in the winters in the uk. So that's still the plan to kind of figure out where my winter spot is. But so far I have taken the leap to leave London. But I do enjoy, like I said, my training is there one day a week. So now I feel like London is Playtown. I can go see some galleries, catch up with friends, and then go back to serenity and calm.

I love that I have a Friend who says there's nothing a big gulp of ocean air can't fix.

Oh, yes.

This just gives her perspective every day, same as you. She goes every day, looks at the ocean, sees the sunrise, just. Just that fresh air. Oh, I love how you're describing it. Serenity. What a nice balance you've struck.

It does feel like a beautiful balance. And, you know, obviously moving has its own teething. You worry about loss of community or changing shape of your community, but I think it's all chances for growth and opportunities for me to push myself out of my shell. You know, it's a little bit of an introvert as well. It's been a journey, but I'm excited for what the next chapter holds.

And do you have a next book bubbling yet or is that still a ways off?

Do you know what? I don't know. There's a few ideas that I have, but I haven't actually started writing anything down. There's a part of me that there's a few ideas I wanted to focus on if I was to do my PhD at the end of the year, that might turn into a book. But I don't know. I kind of think that the book needs a bit more space to marinate and I don't know if what I have to say, I feel like I'm ready to put on paper yet.

I can understand that. And also, your whole process is shifting, like just with the move and. Oh, yeah, well, it will. It always comes in right at the perfect time, right when it's meant to. Samantha, where do you want to send people to learn more and keep in touch?

Wow. Well, thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed talking to you. People can find me on samanthaand.co and my other website is beachangemaker.co, and you can find out all about Love It, Leave it and my trainings on how to be a great change maker, whether you're a leader or manager and helping to kind of disrupt the workplace.

You have a great podcast too, you want to tell people?

Yes. Well, we've got two. So you can find the Love It, Leave it podcast sits on actually Love It, Leave It Co. And you can find all the episodes, I think there's like over 100 on there of people who have made really innovative and conscious career choices and decisions in their lives. And I have another one called how to Be a Change Maker. And it is speaking to disruptors, psychologists, people who are, you know, working in diversity and inclusion leaders on all things around, managing yourself and managing others and how to do it in a disruptive and change making way.

Thank you so much, Samantha, and congrats on your move and just getting settled by the sea. I love it. And just hearing the joy in your voice of going back to school is so inspiring.

Yeah, do it, do it.

I love it. It really does give everyone else permission. Hearing another person so lit up and, and all the different possible applications. It's true. That just, it just takes you doing that and sharing your story. And that little bit of courage might give me and anyone else listening the thought of, yeah, what am I wildly curious about and don't even know where it fits, but start weaving that tapestry.

I mean, just think this is another year that we've been given in our lives, right? And I'm just conscious that I want to continue following my curiosity. I want to keep feeling excited every day. And I think there was a definite funk for me last year where I was just like, this doesn't feel exciting anymore. How do I change that?

Yeah, amazing. Well, thank you so, so much, Samantha. What a delight always to chat with you. And thank you so much everybody for listening.

Thank you everyone.

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