275: Cues - On Charisma with Vanessa Van Edwards
8 Dec 2025 · 33 min
Vanessa Van Edwards breaks down charisma as a learnable skill built on warmth and competence. She analyzed 495 Shark Tank pitches to find what works, and shares concrete moves: acknowledge people with a nod, lean into bold emphasis when you speak, plan events in three columns, do walk-and-talks instead of standing still.
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If you walk into a client meeting and you want to raise your rates, or you walk into your boss's office and you want to ask for a raise, if all you're doing is trying to people please, there's no way you're going to be able to get the ask out because all you're going to want to be doing is people pleasing them. But if you go in knowing that you still want to be liked and you still want to be trusted, you know that you're worth more. And you go in with competence, knowing exactly how much you bring to the table and how much you deserve to be paid. That blend of really good intention I want to do good. I want to be open and honest and competence. I deserve to be paid my worth. I can show my value. That is super charismatic.
What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of the only move that matters is your next one.
For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.
Hello. Hello friends. I am so delighted to be bringing you Vanessa Van Edwards today. Vanessa is a speaker, researcher, and national bestselling authority. More than 50 million people have seen her YouTube videos and her viral TED talk. She's the lead investigator at Science of People, the company she founded, and the bestselling author of the Science of Succeeding with people translated into 16 languages. Today we're talking about her new book, Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication. And I have to say, Vanessa doesn't know I'm going to say this, but you always wonder, do these authors live their message? Vanessa is one of the warmest, best people I know. She's so generous, so loving. Listen to her on Sarah Peck's startup parent podcast. Because, Vanessa, I think I felt even more in love with you just hearing how honest and direct and transparent you are. And I know how frigging generous you are behind the scenes with everyone in your Orbit, too. So welcome to the show.
Oh, my goodness. Well, I am so happy to be here. And that was the kindest introduction ever.
One thing I love about you is you are so warm. You talk about the charisma formula is warmth and competence equals charisma. You are so warm, and yet you love geeking out on the science of people. You and your team coded 495 Shark Tank pitches. I love this show. I've been watching for a decade. Tell us, what did you discover?
Yes. So it's so kind of you to say that you feel the warmth because I am one of those people, I don't know if anyone listening feels this way, where I tend to get very in my head with social interactions. So even when I'm with people in a professional setting or negotiations or an interview, I tend to get so wrapped up in my head about, am I coming across right? Do they like me? Am I doing okay that I can inhibit my own warmth? And I was told feedback very early on that I was being cold or that I was hard to read or I was hard to relate to. And it broke my heart because all I want is for people to feel warm and welcome. And what started me on this journey was realizing, okay, I'm not coming across the way I want to come across. I'm not coming across even the way I think I'm coming across. How do we control the cues that we're sending to others? And the best way to do this is to do research. And I thought, what better option than Shark Tank? Because just like you, I've watched it for many years. And what always struck me about that show was is every idea that makes it onto Shark Tank is a good idea, right? Every idea has some merit or some worth. Every entrepreneur who comes onto the Tank is in some way shape or form or flavor, charismatic. Why is it that some deals crash and burn where other deals, every shark is biting is fighting to come in? And so my team and I, Jose Pina, my research Partner, we coded 495 pitches. As you mentioned, it took, I think, about seven months of coding. We counted every variable we could think of, from hand gestures to smiling to entrance. And what we found were very specific cues that indicated, ah, this is probably going to be a successful pitch. And often those happen in the first few seconds of the interaction. Do you know, Jenny, those first few seconds, you know, when someone walks into the Tank, you know what I'm talking about?
Oh, yeah. My favorite is Sarah Apgar. I had her on the free time podcast. She wore this red jumper, she was on such fire, like she just crushed her pitch. So, so well, ah yes.
So I think that that's when you enter a room, a lot of people tend to think, especially my introverts. Introverts tend to hope that their first impression happens the moment they start talking. But what we found in Shark Tank very clearly is their first impression happened the moment the Sharks first saw them. And the same thing is happening to people on video calls and interactions in networking events that your first impression doesn't happen the moment you start talking. It doesn't happen the moment you say, hey, I'm Vanessa. It actually happens the moment you walk into the room. The moment someone opens up their office door and sees you in the waiting room. The moment your camera first pops on. That is actually our first impression. And so here were some of the patterns is when you see Shark Tank, you see them enter into this long hallway and they walk down this long hallway, they usually take a step and they plant themselves on the carpet and they deliver their opening line. We found that first the entrepreneurs who greeted the Sharks non verbally were more likely to get a deal. And what I mean by that is instead of just walking out, making eye contact and delivering, the best pitchers walked down the hallway and either nodded at one of the Sharks or gave a little hands up like a wave to one of the Sharks, maybe smiled at one of the Sharks. It was a way of non verbally saying, I see you. And that is deep down what we all truly want. Even billionaire sharks, they want to be seen and heard. And this was a really, really juicy takeaway for me because it made me realize it doesn't take much to make someone feel a sense of belonging. And that is a gift that we can give people in our actions. So in the first 10 seconds of your video call of your pitch, I want you to see if you can non verbally acknowledge someone. If you can gift them that little piece of ICU which is smile, eye contact, nod or wave, even a lean in. We even notice some of the entrepreneurs would like lean in towards one of the Sharks as if to say, I'm trying to get closer to you. I see you. Those tiny little cues actually make you immediately seem more warm.
I love how you describe leaning in as bolding a phrase with your body.
I think sometimes when we're thinking about nonverbal, we feel like we have to do it all the time. Like the worst non verbal advice I was ever given was make more eye contact. Now that's a well meaning sentence. But if someone's making 100% eye contact with you, it's like seeing a page where the entire page is highlighted. Right. The whole point of nonverbal is to bold or emphasize an intention. So if you enter into action and your intention is to create warmth, is to acknowledge someone, a very small nod or lean or wave is enough. Same thing with a lean. So a lean is like a nonverbal bold or a nonverbal emphasis that if you're saying something that really matters to you, you can physically lean in, even just a couple of inches. It doesn't take much. Or if someone else is saying something that you really agree with or want to emphasize, you can also subtly lean in. It's a power that we have that I think we don't use, where that is literally a tool. We have just like a highlighter that we can highlight what's being said simply by a couple of inches of leaning.
And I love what you brought up, that too much eye contact is like highlighting the entire page. Because we all know these creepy people that have gone to too many workshops about how to, like, get women or, you know, I don't know, fellas, listening, if you've had women do this to you, but I dated a guy once that, like, I had to tell him, could you please blink? Like you're creeping me out. And only in hindsight, I realized that he probably was a sociopath for many other reasons. But I'm so curious, like with this conversation of cues and charisma of when does this go wrong and it just becomes smarmy charm.
Yes. The most important thing we have to address is how our body reacts to these cues. So you actually probably picked up something from him in addition to that 100% eye contact that you were like, I don't like this. There is something off. And I think humans, we have this superpower in our amygdala not to get too sciency, but I do love the science. I always have to mention the amygdala at some point during a podcast. Our brains are these super cue reading machines. We are very good at naturally reading these cues. The problem is we've been trained out of it or we've been taught, ah, just ignore that. But actually, our intuition or our spidey sense, when you sense something isn't right about this person, your body picks up on it. So what happens is our body will spot a cue, and then our body responds to the cue. So this study that I'm about to share, it completely changed my life and the way that I think about nonverbal. So it's a very simple study. What they found was that when you are in a room and you spot a cue of social rejection. So social rejection cue, these are very subtle. This could be an eye roll, it could be a scoff.
It could be even a dismissive tone of voice. Yeah, great idea. Those are very subtle cues of social rejection. Our body immediately registers that cue, and then our field of vision increases. Literally, when we spot a cue of social rejection, our eyes change so we can see more of our environment. And the reason for this is because if we see a cue of social rejection, our brain goes, uh oh, are there more cues like this? What's my escape route? What do I do next? That showed me that there's a reason why we have this cue reading machine for what's a bad intention? Does someone have a bad intention towards us? So answering your question of how do we know when we get into this smarmy kind of inauthentic category is it is incredibly important that you have good intentions with these cues. It is incredibly important that your intentions are matching your cues. That was where I went wrong. I often went into interactions with very good intentions but had no idea how to show them. So I would want to show up as warm, I would want to show up as competent, I would want to show up as confident, but had no idea how to do that. And so I'd end up showing up as confused or cold. So what I want you to make sure of is in your interactions, what is your intention? Is your intention to have high warmth? So a high warm scenario would be all about collaboration, trust, friendliness, openness, or are you trying to go for competence? That would be productivity, getting things done, being effective, feeling capable. Your intention for that meeting should come across in every single cue you have because if you have bad intentions, they will leak through.
And it's interesting what you say in the book about even people pleasers, who in their minds, and I myself am a continually recovering people pleaser, that we think we're having good intentions, we want to make everyone around us happy, but that actually there's such a thing as too much warmth in a way, because you say that highly warm folks are often the people pleasers and they're not always as respected as they want to be. And you give the example of Steve Wozniak the warm versus Steve Jobs the competent. And it's not that we need to be one or the other, both have their, you know, charms, if you will, but that it's something for people pleasers to be aware that sometimes there is such a thing in a way of too much warmth, where we might come across as insecure. Like we're trying so hard to please everyone else that we look like we're kind of spineless in a way sometimes. I hate to put that so starkly.
You got it though. That is exactly right. There are different flavors of charisma. Absolutely. We should not all have to be the extrovert. And that was one of my goals originally with my work is I felt like as a recovering awkward person, I'm very awkward. A lot of the people skills books that I used to read were all written by extroverts. Right. Like Dale Carnegie, how to Win Friends that Influence People. Fantastic book. But he's an extrovert. A lot of the books that were out there were written by extroverts. And I thought, how can I be charismatic and still be myself? How can I be heard without being loud? How can I be taken seriously and be seen as charismatic without having to fake it as being an extrovert? And so this was where you exactly mentioned it, right? Is this is about defining your flavor of charisma. So there are different flavors. There is of course, the life of the party extrovert. That is one flavor. There's also the highly introspective, powerful, contemplative introvert. There's also the compassionate, empathic healer. All of those are different forms of charisma with their own blend of warmth and competence. The key is that they are a blend. Highly warm people. And this is where I think our desire to be liked really trips us up. We so want to be liked that we end up people pleasing. We end up saying yes to everyone. The nonverbal sign, by the way of someone who's too high in warmth is bobbleheading. You know, bobbleheading, Just constant nodding. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That is a non verbal sign of too much warmth. Literally, you are agreeing with everyone and everything. But that can't be true. And that's where that true intention comes in. There is no way that you could say yes to everything and everyone. That means you are also being inauthentic. So it is so important that yes, you have good intentions, but those good intentions also protect you and your worth and your boundaries and your value. If you walk into a client meeting and you want to raise your rates, or you walk into your boss's office and you want to ask for a raise, if all you're doing is trying to people, please. There's no way you're going to be able to get the ask out because all you're going to want to be doing is people pleasing them. But if you go in knowing that you still want to be liked and you still want to be trusted, you know that you're worth more. And you go in with competence, knowing exactly how much you bring to the table and how much you deserve to be paid. That blend of really good intention I want to do good. I want to be open and honest and competence. I deserve to be paid my worth. I can show my value. That is super charismatic.
We'll be right back just after this.
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So I love that you describe yourself as a recovering awkward person. And here's a question I have so I know you go to events, maybe a little less now that you're a mom, but what about these moments or conferences or events where even you, Vanessa, Founder of Science of People are nervous and you are going like I'll be attending the TED Conference in Vancouver. I'm not talking at it, I'm not speaking at it. But I'm attending. And this was a big bet that I placed on myself. I said 2020 is going to be the year of pivot. So I signed up for ted. Little did I know it would be the year of pivoting. But they would punt the conference two years in the future. And I can already imagine myself going into this space feeling nervous, awkward, introverted, shy. All the things I am so curious for you. Do you still have moments like that where you approach a room or a person and your nerves are getting the better of you A little bit? And yet we know that when we over effort, when we're like overly trying to be charismatic, it's the counterintuitive thing that it comes across as trying too hard. So I'm just curious if you have moments like this in your life still even doing this work?
Oh, my goodness, yes. So notice how I said I'm a recovering awkward person. I am still in recovery. I have not recovered. I am in recovery, which I think is the fuel for my work. The reason that I still feel awkward and I have to conquer it and combat it is exactly what fuels my books and my YouTube channel. So definitely. Definitely, yes. And actually, I think getting in control of your triggers is really, really helpful here. So I have learned that there are patterns for when I feel overwhelmed or introverted or awkward. Actually, introverted is not a bad thing. It's more feeling awkward. You can be introverted and feel power in that introvertedness. It's when I feel awkward that I don't feel like I'm being my good self. So I noticed there were patterns for myself of when I felt awkward, uncomfortable, out of place, wanting to run home and get into bed. And if you're willing, anyone who's listening, if you wouldn't mind getting out a pen and paper, or if you're really good, you can do this in your head too. And I want you to make three different columns on the page. So draw two lines. There's three different columns. In the first column, I want you to write down the people, places, and things or topics that make you thrive, where you feel like you are your most charismatic, best self. So this could be specific people in your life, like your wingman or wing woman, your best friend, a partner, someone who, when you're with them, you're not even thinking about awkwardness. You are so in your element. You're so natural. You're not hiding anything. Who are those people? That can be a long list or a short list. I also want you to think of the topics. So when certain topics come up in conversation, that you're like, oh, yeah, this is my jam. I love talking about this. I feel like I can just freely express my opinion. I don't have to worry about people pleasing. These are my topics. And then lastly, I want you to think of the places. Not just the big places like the park or a nightclub or a restaurant, but even the micro places, like waiting in line for the buffet or with the barista at my favorite coffee shop or in the back of a classroom at a learning event. So, for example, Jenny, when you talk about the TED event. So I've been to a lot of events like that before, never actual ted. Oh, my goodness, that would be so exciting one day. But I would know that I would probably do really well. When I sit down in my seat and I turn to the person next to me, we can have a quiet, intimate conversation about what brought us here. That my jam. It's quiet, we're next to each other. There's lots to talk about because we're watching speakers, the last column. So we're going to hold on the middle column for a second. So people, places and things, micro and macro that make you just thrive your best self. The far column is the opposite, is the places where you're like, I am my worst self. I am my awkwardest. I just cannot get a word out. I don't know why I say that I people, please or I name drop all those social kind of faux pas that we end up tripping ourselves into. Or I call them social traps at that same kind of event. Jenny. I would be very, very nervous. I'd be my worst self. Probably at the post happy hour. I do not do well in big rooms with no organization, with random people where I'm holding my drink, desperately looking for someone to talk to.
Makes my heart beat just thinking about it.
That's the moment, like, where do you bust in? They all know each other. They've been attending for years.
Yes, yes.
That's where I go hide in the bathroom.
Yes. Okay, so there are these clumps of people, right? And then also even I find the happy hour conversations are really hard because it's super loud. So you're like, what's your name? Where are you from? As you end up yelling at each other and you're having kind of service conversations because what do you say? What do you do? Where are you from?
What was your favorite talk? It can become stilted because you're in this random sort of cattle call scenario. So you can add on that list the people, places and things that drain you that you dread. The people who you do not feel like you're your best self, that push your boundaries, that maybe bring out the worst in you. People who those toxic frenemy types, those go in that column. Everything in between goes in the middle. So if there are people who you're like, sometimes I'm my good self around them, but sometimes they're my worst self. Middle. If they're like, well, some happy hours have been good, but ah, there was those. Come on, middle. My goal here is that when you are at an event, you know exactly how to avoid the far column and how to go towards the first column. So, for example, at any Kind of TED event or any kind of big conference like that. I like to get there early, get my bag, get my swag bag, get my coffee and sit in my seat and have a deep conversation before the day has even started. Love it. Even at breakfast. I've found that my favorite thing to do at a conference is the breakfast because there are big round tables. So I can get my breakfast, I can sit at a table, I can have a great conversation. Then I can go up and get seconds and go to another table and talk to that table. Then I can go up and get thirds and go to another table. So I do all of my networking with my energy as the highest first thing in the day. And then at 5 o', clock, when everyone else goes to the happy hour, I go take a bath.
These are such good tips. Yes. And I love how you're describing. I never thought of trying different approaches at different times of the day at conferences or events like this because I think about blocking my schedule during a regular work week. I've also heard people say, like, look at the list in advance, organize some coffees, or what. My friend Dory does so well, set the table. Like she creates an author dinner at every conference and invites people. What about the feeling that some people have described to me? And I think they put it really well, that at some of these conferences, people are almost looking over your shoulder of who else is in the room, who else could they be talking to? It's like they're having FOMO while talking to you. Now, ideally, each of us is as interesting and important that we would never inspire fomo. Do you think that? Is that just a person? That it's not kismet, it's not meant to be? Or what do we do when we notice that vibe? I know this is a very specific question or how do you handle that?
Okay, so two answers. One is I totally agree with you. And it's very hard to not overhead gaze in a room full of powerful people. So I don't blame anyone for doing that because that's kind of human nature. So one is, I would not take it personally. It's very hard for anyone. Even the most powerful people are probably going to overhead gaze to see if they see other powerful people. It's a part of human. So one, don't take it personally. Don't let it rattle you. Second is, I am a big, big, big fan of line talking. What I mean by this is I find that there is way less overhead gazing when you're both in line for something and that is because you both have a destination. The bathroom, coffee, the buffet. And so when I'm at an event, let's say that I had to go to a happy hour event, which normally I do try to avoid, but let's say it's a huge room and I can't avoid it. I almost always, instead of hiding in the bathroom, I will get in the longest line I see. I know that sounds crazy. It doesn't even matter really what it's for. I have been known to just get right back in line after I get my drink. Because when you're in line, you one, have a purpose and two, you have someone ahead of you and behind you you can talk to. Literally, they're right there. They have nothing else to do. And you can easily say, so what are you going to get at the buffet? Oh, are you going to get the wine? It looks great. Who was your favorite speaker today? Didn't you just love? So it's like built in purpose and you get way less overhead gazing. So I love a line. Go stand in lines. Next time you see me at an event, just get in line with me. We'll have a great conversation. Second tip here is, let's say you're with someone and they're overhead gazing and you do think it's rude. Maybe it's a friend or a colleague and you can tell they're not paying attention. A little trick that you can do to stop an overhead gazer. And in my book, I talk about how to get someone to stop talking, which is if you have an over talker. I should have added this too. Which is how to get someone to stop overhead gazing, which is this. Let's say that they're talking to you and they're overhead gazing. The moment they look over your shoulder, turn around and look where they're looking. When you see nothing, look back and be like, oh, sorry, I thought you made saw someone important. And then every time they look over your shoulder, look with them, they will realize that they are constantly looking over your shoulder and it is distracting you and them both.
I love that. And you look over with them and you go, who's there? Who are we missing?
Like, exactly. Oh, was there someone good?
Ooh, yeah. Ooh, ooh, who'd you see?
Oh, is Obama here? Oh, oh, has Michelle arrived? I mean, like, you know, so you can be kind of playful with it and it shows them. Every time they look over your shoulder, it takes you out of the conversation too. You're just showing that for them. And so that Way, it's a little bit of A, A, they'll quickly stop, or B, you can just overhead gaze together.
I love that. It reminds me of zebras. How zebras stand in the wild, looking over each other's shoulder more for danger than who's cool in the room.
Let's be zebras, Jenny, you and I can be zebras. I like it.
Yes, I love zebras. I would love to be your zebra pal with you. We're here on a podcast, talking with voice only, which, of course, anybody who's here is a podcast listener, and I'm obsessed with podcasts. I friggin love them. I live with them. Podcasters are some of my best friends, even if they don't know I exist. You talk in the book about vocal likability, that people can tell confidence within 200 milliseconds of hearing a voice. Why do you think it is that there are certain podcasts, we turn it on and within seconds we don't like their voice, and obviously there's someone for everyone. But what is it about voice and the almost purity of that form that either indicates likability for somebody or repels them?
Oh, man, I loved writing this section. So, like you podcasters are my best friends. I listen to podcasts while I walk, while I cook, while I swim, while I shower. I mean, I'm always listening to a podcast. And so those two chapters, that section was my favorite section because I think there is so much power, there's so much potential in optimizing our vocal cues that we indicate vocal likability and vocal power very quickly. The reason for this is because it is extremely hard to lie with our voice. And so as humans, we know that listening for vocal cues is a really, really good way to gauge someone's intention. And that is because our body shapes our voice. So, for example, right now, I'm actually recording standing, because I know that I get more breath, I get more power, I have less vocal fry if I'm standing. I'm going to fake this for you so you can hear it. So I'm going to roll in my shoulders and I'm going to tilt my chin down and I'm going to tighten my vocal cords. Now, if I'm in anxiety and if I talk like this, I have a lot more vocal fry at the very end of my voice. And even though I'm talking in the same way, you can actually hear that my voice and my body has changed 100%. Crazy, right? You're actually like. Like, my voice is like, oh, I Don't like it. That is because winners take up space. When we're in pride, we take in a lot of breath, we have lots of space in our torso, we have loose mouth and jaw. When we're anxious, we roll in, we tighten, we take up less space. And that shows up in our voice. And so as humans, we are always listening for tension. That's what we're listening for. We're listening for. Is there any tension in there that I should be aware of? So I don't catch it. So I don't catch that anxiety that they're feeling.
So good. Oh, well, I could talk to you for hours, as you know, because I just adore you.
And we do.
And we do. Vanessa and I always try to catch each other on walk and talks because as you're saying, we're moving, we're in motion, we have energy, there's fresh air involved. And I guess maybe that goes back to our conference strategy is like, leave the room, go for a walk and talk with someone.
Yes. And it's funny, as you mentioned, we do walk and talks because I realized in that list, that three column list, I have my own three column list. I really hope you use it. I added over the years, scheduled calls with friends, that toxic column, because I realized when I scheduled these calls with friends, they felt so forced and so quid pro quo. And I felt sort of like this doesn't feel authentic to me, even though we both have good intention. And so I started to do walk and talks, which are a little more spontaneous. We do a lot of ping me back, call me back, call me back. But when you get each other, you're both moving or someone's cooking and it's so much more free. And so even just that situational change really affected my voice, my intention, my feeling. And so it's every area of your life that I think we can be more charismatic with our friends, with our professional relationships and our social and romantic relationships. It just is a matter of being in control of those cues.
So good. I just love how you geek out on this stuff and recover ring emphasize on the ing awkward person. You share this all so beautifully, listeners. Be sure you check out your copy of Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication and you'll learn about the bookmark strategy for someone who is talking too much. Vanessa, where else can people find you if they want to learn more and keep in touch?
Oh, my goodness. Well, if you want to see some of my cues breakdowns on YouTube, I break down some of the cues. I couldn't do in the book like Britney Spears and the Rock and Obama and Morgan Freeman. I had a lot of fun with breaking down those cues. You're welcome to check me out on YouTube, Vanessa Van Edwards or scienceofpeople.com if you're curious where you are on warmth or competence. So if you're not sure if we were talking about that being the episode, you're welcome to take our free quiz. Scienceofpeople.com Charisma and we actually it's like a little test where you can test where you fall in warmth and competence.
So good. I'm going to throw all of these into the show notes. Vanessa, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. And listeners, thank you so much for being here.
Oh Jenny, I adore you.
Thank you for coming backwater to being zebras. See you soon.
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Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.
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