277: Expansive Impact and Spacious Scheduling with Sarah Young

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We can take a stand and we can speak up for things that we believe in. But my take is, are we doing that after we've done our own inner work? Because I think a lot of what we're seeing out there in our world, unfortunately right now is there's the external pouncing without the internal reflection. And my opinion is that that can be a really dangerous combination.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Bl, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello. Hello my friends. Oh my goodness, are you in for a treat today? I am absolutely thrilled and just filled with glee to have my great friend Sarah Young here with us today. Sarah is the founder and CEO of Zing Collaborative. She is the author of a brand new book called Expansive An Invitation to Lead in Everyday Moments. For almost a decade now she has been working with a handful of highly conscious and committed clients, corporate individuals, leaders who want to elevate and expand their leadership capacity. She runs retreats, workshops, speaking events to help leaders further develop through all kinds of interesting approaches. Sarah is one of the most important people to me and the Journey of the Free Time book. She and I set up what we call ASGs. These like at least on my end, semi Crisis Calls for Author Support group where she would give just truly invaluable input on the book and helped it become exactly what it is she has done. Two Ironmans, she has a rock and tan and I just couldn't be more excited to welcome you to the show. So welcome Sarah.

Oh my goodness. Thank you so much Jenny for that beautiful and generous intro and featuring the tan as well. Thank you.

I know. Have you ever had a tan publicly acknowledged on the podcast? Let me just make it awkward from the first five minutes.

I think that might be the first, so thank you.

Well, I think part of the reason I mention it is because you are so brilliant at honoring your values of being outside. And you and I are opposites because you love hot weather and you love to be outdoors and doing things outside. And then meanwhile, I love the winter. I love my puffy coat. And the colder the morning, the better.

Yes, I think that's such a great point. It's a great harmony of opposite approaches, but harmonious undercurrent. So I love it.

One of the things, speaking of being outside more, you and I met before the pandemic hit and we just have so much in common. And we had corresponded many, many years ago. I think you had said it was maybe back in 2012 or 2013. And it was so interesting to notice your challenge that you describe in the book about tiny boxes on your calendar and wanting to support all of your many clients, different types of clients, different types of community members, both your online community and your local community. And yet you are getting to this point of overwhelm. Then the pandemic hits, and it's this chance to wipe the slate clean. I'm just wondering if you can start by telling us about your journey from tiny boxes to finding more space to be outdoors and do the work in the way that most lights you up.

Yes. And just to highlight that moment back in around 2013, I very clearly remember signing up for one of your programs at that time. I think it was when you had first launched maybe your very first community, which ended up becoming, at that time, momentum. And you sent me a postcard in the mail. And I will never forget receiving that postcard. I think I might still have it in a box somewhere. And it was beautiful and colorful and it was handwritten by you. And I think that just really speaks to you and your approach and you know how thoughtful you are with everything that you do. And I just knew in that moment that I wanted to have more of your work in my life and followed your work for many years. So just a little acknowledgement to you and the way that you work, because that postcard that I received in the mail really was sort of the first spark of this is someone who I want to learn from. And at that time in my industry, I didn't see a lot of models of a different way of doing coaching and leadership development until I found your work. So I just want to recognize that little moment for you first.

It means so much to me. Oh, my goodness. That's one of those examples of you cannot know. Talk about a little serendipity. Popcorn that sending a postcard, and I remember the logic behind it for me was just if somebody took the time to read one of my books and read my blog, I didn't have a podcast yet, and write to me what I would call a keeper email, I'm like, the least I could do. Like, it did spark joy to send these postcards. And so I love knowing that that little interaction, both you taking the initiative to reach out and then me responding in that way, planted this seed that would blossom into you becoming one of my closest friends and most important people in my life almost 10 years later. Like, who could know to just incredible.

Absolutely, Yes. I could not agree more. So very grateful for that initial postcard and thinking about the tiny boxes on the calendar. You know, I know you and I both sort of grew up in the corporate world. And for me, working in that space, it was very common to have the entire day booked with meetings from, you know, 7:30 in the morning until 5 or after in the evening. It was very, very common to be not only double booked, but oftentimes triple booked. And then, you know, I would just sort of look at my calendar and try to figure out, well, out of these three options, all of which are overlapping, which feels the most important, you know, where should I spend my time? So for me, that was sort of the way I grew up in the professional world, just thinking that that was normal and that was the way of working. And productivity equals boxes on the calendar. And if there is not a box on the calendar, that means that I'm not being productive and that I'm not, you know, maximizing the impact that I could have. So I transitioned out of the corporate world in 2013, and one of my values is freedom and impact. And so I started my business and I was really excited about this idea of creating impact, but also creating more freedom. And suddenly I was in charge of my time and in charge of my calendar. But what I started to realize was that very quickly, I had just recreated the very thing that I had left. So every day, many, many, many boxes on the calendar, and I had filled my schedule of completely my own doing. And for me, my moment of realization came a few years into my business where one of my closest friends, who I've known my entire life, we've known each other since kindergarten, she asked me if I could have a cup of coffee with her. And I remember I looked on my calendar and the first opening that I had for a cup of coffee with her was it was either six or eight weeks out. I can't remember which, but it was very, very far into the future and we lived in the same city. This was an hour long coffee meeting and I couldn't find any space for her. And I realized that my calendar, I had filled it up with all of these requests for coffee with people I had never met before and these various networking things and all things that are very joyful, but they had overtaken my calendar to the point that I didn't even have time to have coffee with one of my closest friends. So that was one of my moments of realization. And then I started working for many years on trying to unravel that. But for me, it still continues to be one of my greatest areas of work and attention. And then when 2020 hit and a lot of, like many people, a lot of the things on my calendar went away. That was a really good opportunity to try to start anew and then try to consciously rebuild in a way that honors that space. And like you mentioned, you know, time in nature and time to do the things that help me to show up, you know, at my best for my clients.

It's interesting noticing, it's like first we become aware, okay, there's this problem and I totally connect to what you said. When I was in corporate, I would just call it the wall because I would look at my calendar and it was a wall day to night every day of the week. The only days off were weekends, which is when I would do email work, catch up. And it's interesting to become aware and like your coffee story with your friend that's so powerful and that that's kind of happening to me right now in the midst of a launch is that friends that I deeply care about are saying, oh, when can we catch up? And I'm looking, and it's three weeks out by the time company comes and goes and a trip comes and goes. And then as you and I have been discussing over these last few years, then you almost develop a sort of allergy, Like, I don't know about you, but the threshold, the tolerance level for what used to fly is so much lower. And so I'm curious how you're handling it these days when you find yourself repeating the pattern again, like. Cause you almost, with something like this, you have to make mistakes. We learn by doing, we learn by regretting adding certain things at certain times or formats. Don't you think?

Absolutely, absolutely. And this for me is. It sounds almost ridiculous, but this is one of my continuous areas of personal work. You know, I have studied this in great depth for A long period of time I was leading a workshop called, you know, creating a Resonant yes through the Power of no. I have read all the books. I have, you know, read Essentialism seven times. You know, it's like I have studied this stuff day in and day out. And also this is for me a daily practice and oftentimes a multiple times per day practice. So a few things that work for me and you know, at different points in time I find that I need to use a different combination of these. But one that I find useful is some version of what I call a decision filter. So when something is coming in to run it against my current values and my current priorities. So, you know, if I say yes to this, is this fully in line with my values and is this fully supporting my priorities in this moment? If yes, okay, maybe it makes it in and if not, maybe it gets punted out. Or maybe it's just a no for now. So that's one thing that is often helpful for me. I sometimes suffer from what Gretchen Rubin has called Obliger rebellion. So if I get to a point where I have said yes way too many times, sometimes I swing to the opposite where I just try to start saying no more excessively and have to take a little bit of a break to sort of come back to center. And probably for me, the thing that helps me the most is to schedule in the white space first or schedule in the, you know, catch ups with friends or time outside or whatever it is. This also perhaps sounds ridiculous, but in 2016, the reason that I signed up for my second Ironman was not actually because I wanted to do another Ironman. It was because I wanted to work less. And for me, I do not do well with that intention if I don't have anything else in that space. So I knew, having done ironman back in 2008, that training for an Ironman takes a lot of time. You're out on your bike, sometimes for three plus hours at a time, you're in the pool, you're running whatever it is and it's a significant commitment of time. So that was actually my core driver for signing up for my second Ironman was simply to have something else that would take up my time so that I could try to find a bit more equilibrium with my work. And for me, I really love my work. I love my clients. I feel really just beyond grateful that I get to do what I'm doing, doing every day. And so it can be hard for me to turn it off and create some of that space just because it's easy for me to get into it and just be all in all the time.

I love that you did an ironman.

The world that would need to happen for me to do that is just incredible. Something that's related to this. So you mentioned Gretchen Rubin's four tendencies. We've talked offline about this work, actually a lot of personality assessments of learned behavior from our upbringing and systems versus innate how we thrive. And I think it's so interesting to notice. Okay, this obliger tendency may or may not be who you are at your core or what makes you thrive. And I've often talked on this podcast about being a recovering people pleaser and perfectionist. And the people pleaser energy is that when a request comes in I kind of almost leap to say yes. Or at least I used to do this in the past. And I quoted your book in Free Time around this tiny boxes concept where you say you have to notice whether you're saying yes to something on your schedule out of obligation and out of people pleasing or fear of what they'll think or how they'll respond or react versus love what you love to do and what lights you up. And as it relates to this, your recent Friday Favorites listeners, Sarah has one of the my favorite newsletters of all time. You've got to subscribe. It's called Friday Favorites and we'll put the link in the show notes. You talked about clean versus Dirty energy and that the reason I'm connecting this to calendaring is because you and I have both had experiences where we get on the phone or we get to a coffee meeting and the person who said they wanted one thing ends up totally having a hidden agenda. I'm just wondering if you can explain what this concept is of clean versus Dirty energy and how to do what you say in the book of creating clear containers.

Thank you for that question and thank you for our ongoing exploration of that topic of clean versus Dirty energy as well. So yes, I think you're absolutely right. And the first part of the question around the response I think is so important. And I find this with a lot of my clients, particularly women. And I totally relate to this as well, where something comes in and it is almost a physical default response that we respond with yes. It's almost as if our fingers take over. It's subconscious. We don't mean to do it, but we take our fingers to the keyboard and we type yes. And I see it all the time with women who are running their own businesses. I see it very Commonly with women who are in leadership roles in the corporate world, where people ask us to do something, and almost without knowing and without realizing, we say yes. And we do that over and over and over again until we realize, oh, my gosh, what did I just do? And there's a blessing and a curse to this, as there is with most things, where a lot of the women who are being asked to do all these things, they're doing amazing work, they're making an incredible contribution, and so people want them to do more things. And there's a gift in that, and there's nothing wrong with that, and we can honor the part of that that is great. And it's like if we do that over and over and over again, we lose time and energy for our own priorities and for the things that matter to us. And as you and I were talking about, you know, time for simple things like having a cup of coffee with our. So I think the first part of what you said is, you know, how can we pause and check in with ourselves to notice the place from which we are responding? So, like you said, is it coming from a place of obligation? Is it coming from almost a place of compulsion or even addiction to productivity? Or is it coming from that place of fear? And like you mentioned and like I wrote about in the book, at the beginning, when I was running my business, I was absolutely responding from fear, where I was trying to get to this arbitrary revenue amount that I had in my head for no good reason, really, but I was trying to get to this place, and in my head I was having enough impact, and I was doing something meaningful if I was getting to that place of revenue. So that was underneath. Some of the things that I said yes to, that, in hindsight, probably weren't the most aligned, but they were coming from that place of, you know, trying to make sure that I was doing enough or creating enough impact or whatever it is. So I think part one of what you mentioned is how can we insert that little pause to check in with ourselves to see what is the place from which I am responding? And then to your second point about clean or dirty energy, this is the thing that keeps coming up for me over and over again, that we can put all of these complicated rules in place for ourselves, and we can have frameworks and we can have all of these things. But what I find for myself anyway, is that beneath all of that, there is a clear theme around clean versus dirty energy. So if we are responding from a place of love or we are responding to something in A way that, you know, aligns with our values, inevitably that is going to have clean, clear energy. And if we're responding from a place of fear or obligation or scarcity, or thinking the other person's going to be mad at us or whatever it is that already has a little bit of that dirty energy, and that's going to come through in our actions, in our impact, maybe even in, you know, festering resentment down the line if we do that too often. So that clean versus dirty energy for ourselves, I think can be, you know, a really helpful guideline. And then you mentioned clear containers for meetings and hidden agendas. So something that I learned about myself when I was doing my reflection for last year, so for 2021, was that every opportunity that I would go back and do differently if I could had some tie to unclear expectations up front. So all of my lessons learned from 2021 in some way tied to not getting enough clarity on the front end before I said yes to something. So I think if we're the receiver of a request, we can ask for that clarity up front. You know, are you looking to just have coffee? Are you looking for some advice? Are you looking for a coaching session? Are you looking for input on your new business plan? What is it? We can ask those questions to gain that clarity. And if we're the one asking for a meeting or asking for a conversation, we can do the same thing by being explicit with our expectations and explicit with our request. I just had one of these conversations a couple weeks ago where someone reached out, and the premise of the invitation was, I'd love to reach out and I'd love to get to know you. And the actual intent of the conversation was much different. And that just, to me, felt like dirty energy as soon as I got on the call. Because it very quickly became clear that the real intent of the conversation was not what the person had shared. So I think pausing to check in before we answer, checking in with ourselves about that clean and dirty energy, and then also creating that clarity up front by designing the relationship, designing the conversation, those are things that we can do to create clean energy on all fronts.

I love it. Thank you for explaining and laying it out so clearly. It's just, ah, I feel already calmer. This is one of your zones of genius, for sure. Sarah's incredible facilitator and super intuitive. And I just love the way you're able to explain all of this. And as you were talking about the hidden agenda factor, you and I have also talked about Adam Grant's work on givers and takers. I think I'm going to do a solo episode on this soon where takers. The metaphor that comes to mind for me these days is it's as if they're at a buffet and every person they meet, they're like, what can I take here? You know?

And it doesn't feel good. It does feel when we say dirty, we mean like muddled, unclear. Just that taker vibe of what can I take from you? What can I put on my plate versus what might be presented up front?

We'll be right back just after this.

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I want to shift gears and talk about this gorgeous book. So listeners, you can't see it, but Sarah has a really beautiful visual sensibility. There is a hot pink, they call it the end sheets. When you first open the book, there's this gorgeous, expansive, like, breathable cover spot color in the middle. Because Sarah and I were kind of geeking out on book design, we worked on our two books at the exact same time. And one of the things that Sarah used to joke about were the 999 problems in her Google Drive. Because as a coach and facilitator and leader, and not just the work she did in corporate, but in nearly a decade of her own business. Sarah, you had often talked about how you had accumulated so much content that you had created so many ideas, so many worksheets, so many things you would create on the fly for clients, both individual clients and corporate clients, and that you had this overwhelming Google Drive filled to the brim like a overstuffed pantry of your brilliant ideas, and yet they were all kind of stuck in there. And I have watched you over the last year and a half harness that into this gorgeous book. But I would love for you to tell us the journey of this. Like, I don't know Take us to a moment of overwhelm when you wanted to organize and you couldn't. And like, how did it end up here where I'm actually holding your beautiful book in my hands?

Oh, well, thank you so much for your words about the book and thank you for being on the book journey with me. You know, we often call our books book siblings. Different topics and slightly different audiences, but siblings on the path. And that has just been so joyful to be on that journey with you. So, first of all, thank you. Thank you for those words and for the beautiful reflection. So the idea of 999 tragedies, the title was born out of a conversation with a girlfriend who a few years ago was. I was talking with her about this and she said something about your 99 tragedies. And I said, no, they're way more than 99. It's 999. So the Google Drive was just overflowing, like you said, like a stuffed pantry with. I love that metaphor, by the way, with all of these pieces of content. And for me, it really started, you know, back in 2013, 2014, when I started leading my first corporate programs. And I would develop these programs and I would develop this content for different groups of people. And the way that I work, I tend to work in a pretty high touch way where I go in and I try to figure out what the organization needs and really try to customize the experience based on what is going to serve them best. And so, you know, I have had this for some of my early corporate clients, and I had all these different frameworks and pieces of content that I had created for coaching circles over the years and for my clients and different organizations and speaking events and nonprofits and for profits and all of these different things. And basically I would create them and I would deliver the event or the program or the experience, and then all of these documents would just go into my Google Drive and kind of die a slow death in the virtual world. And so I started noticing this pattern like you talked about before. I was very aware of it, but I am not very good at systems, and I'm not very good at organizing things in a linear way. You are so brilliant at that, and you are so good at systems and organizing things, and that is just not the way that my mind works at all. So I have this vision of just this sort of this virtual graveyard, so to speak, of all these documents, which is how things looked for a very long time. And I had wanted to write a book for many, many years, since I was Very young, writing a book had been on my list of things that I wanted to do. And then more specifically, since having my business, I wanted to write a book to try to make better use of these 999 tragedies so that other people could actually use them rather than some just being in my Google Drive forever. And I actually had a colleague and a mentor who I was talking to about this probably five or so years ago, and I was telling him that I really wanted to write a book, and I just couldn't figure out how to create the time or the energy to make it happen. Like, for some reason I want to do it, but it's just feeling really hard. And he said to me, in some sort of brutal honesty, he said, sarah, he said, if you really want to do something, you'll make the time to do it. And if you don't make the time to do it, you just don't want it that much. And I was like, dang, that was the truth, Mom.

I know. Like, the fact that you could do two Ironmans, it's like, isn't it interesting where the block comes in versus where it doesn't?

Absolutely. Absolutely. So that was one of those pieces of feedback that sort of stung when I heard it. It didn't go into action right away, but I really credit that comment that he made with giving me a bit of a loving kick in the pants, so to speak, to really prioritize this thing that I said I wanted to do but hadn't made time for. So that was a little bit of the origin of the book and the 999 tragedies. And really my intention was just that for some of these things that had served groups or individuals over the years that they might be able to live on and serve other people in some way through the form of a book.

What was the first thing you did? Because after all this procrastination and overwhelm of not knowing how to tackle the 999 tragedies take us to. Like, how did you actually get over that initial inertia, you know, where it just feels impossible and you're looking up at Mount Everest. What did you do? Like, how did you turn the corner?

That's a great question. I think the first thing that I did was I forced myself to look in there in the Google Drive, which again, sounds perhaps kind of silly, but I knew that there was so much stuff in there, and I also knew that it was quite unorganized, and some of it I really hadn't touched since 2014. So it felt a little bit scary to go back in there and look at things. So that was one of the first things that I did was I started just looking through my drive and I started looking at, you know, what materials do I have in there? Which ones feel most resonant still today, which ones have evolved and shifted and changed, which ones maybe aren't really relevant anymore, but can just kind of leave those to the side. So I started spending some time poking around in there and seeing what I had and also starting to pull out some themes. So from that exploration, I was able to see that there were certain things that felt really true and really consistent and really important over the course of many years. And so that sort of helped guide some of the core themes of the book. Even if the language had shifted or the details had shifted, these were sort of my non negotiables. And the things that I feel really strongly about that could then be incorporated in terms of themes or guiding ideas.

You open the book with the story of a spiritual tornado of leadership. I love this term spiritual tornadoes, specifically the anti marshmallow campaign. What was your anti marshmallow campaign?

Yes. So first I just want to give credit for the spiritual tornado. That term comes from a friend who is known as Susan in the book, and she was the one who introduced me to that term. So I first want to give her full credit for that amazing, amazing terminology and my anti marshmallow campaign. So when I was working in the corporate world, one of the roles that I took on was leading a team within the organization. So I had led a number of teams within the organization over the course of a number of years. But I had been asked to come over to a different area of the company. And this was an area of the company that I hadn't spent time in before. So it was a new division and department for me. And in that role, I spent a lot of time with one of the key leaders from within the company. And one day we were having a conversation about some of the different individuals within the department and, you know, how things were going. What I said in that conversation was, has this person ever received feedback, really received feedback about the way that they are perceived and the impact that they're having? Because my understanding was that they had not. So we were talking about this person, but from what I had observed, I had never actually seen this person get any feedback. And I had never heard about any feedback conversation in which someone really sat down with them and said, look, you know, here's what's going on here's the problem, and here's what needs to shift. So in that conversation, I asked that question if this person had actually received feedback. And in that conversation, this particular leader said, sarah, she said, you are like a marshmallow. Too soft, too compassionate. And that is your problem. We need to put you on the anti marshmallow campaign. And in that moment, I had this purple notebook. I still have the notebook. I still have this page. In the meeting, I wrote down at the top of the page, anti marshmallow campaign. And in the weeks that followed, I really did try to embark on an anti marshmallow campaign where I tried to be less compassionate and less soft and, you know, more ruthless in my role. And I very quickly started hating the way that I was feeling inside in service of this anti marshmallow campaign. And I realized that if I continued to sever off this part of myself that was compassionate, I was drifting away from my core self or from my true nature. And what really scared me about that was I didn't know if I would be able to come back. So, you know, this idea that if we continue to act a certain way to the point that it becomes normal or our everyday default, what if we can't find our way back? So that really hit me hard when I started to realize the way that I felt and the possible future trajectory of doing so. And it was after that, in the weeks and months that followed, that ultimately led me to make a shift out of that particular role and into starting my business.

And now it's that sensitivity. It's such a gift. It's like, that's what makes you you. And you're such a breath of fresh air. Your newsletter, your book. Just talking to you. You're one of the most compassionate people I've ever met. Like, I'd say compassionate and thoughtful and just genuinely interested in others and caring for the people around you. So it's just so crazy looking back on feedback like that and imagining that you were trying to become an anti marshmallow. You know, it's like, oh, you're a marshmallow. Let's make s'. Mores. What is the s' more of your leadership? So good. You want s'. And I think that's certainly what you've created since now, by the way, we're keeping our kitchen. I know you love cooking.

Yes.

Sarah will sometimes put little, like, summer pasta salad recipes in our newsletter, but now we have a pantry, we have s'. Mores. We're on fire.

Yes.

Yes.

Hopefully, the s' mores Is not on fire, though.

Right? I actually light mine on fire. I light them into a blaze of glory until they're totally charred, and then I blow it out and eat it.

I love that. I actually like a little bit of char on mine too. But I know some people are just appalled by that idea.

I know they have the patience to slow your rose and get a golden brown. Michael, my husband Michael, had never had a s' more until a couple years ago. He's not a fan.

Oh, man.

So I know I was like, oh, my God, he's never had a s'. More. So he said, they're very sweet, which is true.

That is. And they can be a little messy, but that's okay.

Right? Okay. So one thing I think that's interesting, what you realized in this anti marshmallow campaign is much to the chagrin of people pleasers everywhere, as you say in the book, accepting this uncomfortable and sometimes painful truth. No matter what I do and no matter how hard I try, someone will likely be upset with my choices and actions. Oh, it just hits you right in the gut, you know.

Speaking as someone that, oh, I hate upsetting people, I hate it. Early in my relationships, if I got in a fight with my partner, I, A, thought it was over immediately, and B, just could barely even function at entering into conflict. And the thought, now when things are as divisive as ever, it's so scary to even write a book or do whatever and just imagine upsetting people and knowing that almost no matter what, you will upset someone or some group of people. You give the example of Gwyneth Paltrow. You say, if GP Would have based her decisions on the loudest voices of her outside critics, she would have shut down her business years ago. And instead, she's built this incredible empire and says, like, we go first so you don't have to. I just love that you brought her into the book. Oh, how do you reconcile. How do you grapple with this, of this painful truth that there are some people that either won't accept your leadership style or won't accept you or will attend a workshop and just want to criticize and tear down? Like, how are you navigating this during the times we're in, where it feels like everything is so heightened?

Yes. Well, thank you. Thank you for that. Thank you for the question. I think this is so challenging. And my observation is that for people who are perhaps more sensitive in nature, this never necessarily goes away, but it's something that we can continue to, you know, work with and find ways to deal with. So I think for me, one of the first things that comes to mind is acting in integrity and trying in the everyday moments to act in the path of highest integrity. So this is never going to be perfect per se, but for me, a continuous check in that I come back to is, am I doing the best I can in this moment? And do I feel good about my actions? Do I feel like I'm acting from a place of integrity? And I try to also think about integrity of self. So do I feel good about this decision? Can I sleep at night if I make this decision? Integrity to others. So to others in my life and to other communities out there, and then sort of being in integrity to the collective world. So that sounds perhaps a little bit broad, but am I acting in a way that feels conscious to, you know, the greater good of all? And again, not that we're going to do all of those things perfectly every day, but for me, that's my little guide where if I feel like I'm acting in integrity to the best of my ability, that's pretty much the best that I can do. And like you mentioned, not everyone is going to like that. So that's one thing that comes to mind. The second thing that comes to mind is that if we're doing work, if we're putting a stake in the ground, if we're, you know, getting into the arena as famous, you know, Roseville quote that Brene made very popular, so to speak, people aren't going to like that. And like you said, it's going to likely irritate someone. And so my observation is that it is so much easier to stand on the sidelines and criticize others than it is to, you know, get in and do the work. And I actually have been thinking about this a lot from the perspective of writing a book. And I've been thinking about all of the people out there who go on Amazon and they give a one star review. And I've had this thought where there should be a rule where you're not actually allowed to give a one star review if you yourself have not gone through the process of writing a book. Because now coming out of the other side of that, even the worst books in the world, if someone has put their love and time and energy into doing that, it should be at least worth two stars just for effort alone. So I think this piece about being willing to get in and step up and take a stand and have a voice, inevitably there's probably going to be someone out there who doesn't like that and then I think, also thinking about tools and structures and tactics that will support us in continuing to move forward even if hard things happen. So two things that come to mind there. You know, I think about Seth Godin, who I just find him to be such a prolific writer. I know you're a huge fan of his work as well. And I remember him talking about the fact that he doesn't read reviews and he doesn't open up comments. And that to me has always been so powerful because in my opinion, he's one of the best writers there is in our time. And even he puts, you know, systems and structures in place to not be pulled off course by some of these comments or the voice of the hater, so to speak. You know, I've heard Joe Rogan, who I know people have all sorts of opinions about, but he has talked about the same thing. You know, he has millions of followers, and still he talks about the fact that he doesn't like to read comments because quite frankly, they sting. So having some of those tools in place that help us stay our course, I think can be helpful as well. And then I think the other thing that comes to mind is acknowledging that we can't necessarily control the reaction or the response of other people. And this one I find to be so difficult. And I teach a course about conflict, and this one comes up all the time, you know, the question of what if we do our own work and we act really consciously and we are in integrity and we try to give someone feedback or we try to have a conversation and the other person just completely explodes. And the very painful truth is that we can't necessarily control other people. And my observation over the years is that, you know, sometimes people who haven't done their own inner work, or maybe they don't have a sense of peace within themselves, they take out that lack of peace on other people. So I call this pouncing. Where we look around our world and we see all these people who are so ready to pounce at other people for something that they're doing or not doing or saying or not saying. And the question that I always think about is, have these people done their own work? Have they looked in the mirror? Do they have compassion toward themselves? Are they practicing self care, self love? Like, what would make these people a bit more at peace within themselves such that they could potentially demonstrate more compassion toward others?

Ooh, I'm so glad you brought pouncing into the conversation because one of your big principles is look through the mirror, not the window of Reflecting first, because such a big theme of your book, Expansive Impact, is that what do we do when nothing around us changes, when the world around us doesn't change, when we can't change other people? And you say we've got to look in the mirror, not the window. And this pouncing energy. Yes, it's so true. Like the ones where they're just. I just pictured, as you're talking, crouched on the sidelines, raring to go, like, almost drooling, like, chomping at the bit, just waiting for someone to mess up so they can pounce on them and tell them everything they're doing wrong. It's so good to put a name to that energy, I think, so that we can recognize, even if it happens to us. Like, is this person pouncing? Are they coming with compassion? Are they coming with this pouncing vibe? You know, super aggressive?

Yes, absolutely. And it's like, we can take a stand and we can speak up for things that we believe in. But my take is, are we doing that after we've done our own inner work? Because I think a lot of what we're seeing out there in our world, unfortunately, right now, is there's the external pouncing without the internal reflection. And my opinion is that that can be a really dangerous combination.

My friend Tony asked me this for the Free Time Launch Day episode, and he said, is there anything in the book that either you were nervous to put in or that you're secretly hoping someone will ask you about that maybe you haven't talked too much publicly about before? So I'm going to ask you the same one because it really sparked something for me. What's a little diamond or a gem in Expansive Impact that you're actually hoping people pick up on? Because there's so much juicy stuff in this book.

Oh, that's a great question. I think things that I was nervous to write about included experiences with various teams over the years. Overall, I loved my time in the corporate world, and I worked with a lot of really phenomenal people, and I really learned a lot from that chapter. And so writing about some of those experiences and things that I messed up and things that I wish I would have done differently, that felt like a very vulnerable process for me. There was one story in the book that I had never actually even talked about prior to writing about it, and it was related to an email that I sent. Long story short, in one of the teams that I worked on, there was sort of this unexpressed value of snark and snarkiness and there was a belief among some members of the team that if you were smart, you were also snarky. And if you were kind, that meant that you weren't very smart.

So in an attempt to connect with some of these individuals on the team who I had had a kind of a hard time connecting with, I wrote this email to the team, and it had this little undercurrent of snark. And that is just not at all my style. It is not my belief. It is not my leadership approach. I don't think it belongs. It was not authentic to me at all. And basically, I sent out the email and it ended up getting forwarded and landing in the inbox of one of the leaders within the company. And I was so horrified, A, that I had written the email, B, that it went out to the team, and C, that it landed in the inbox of one of the leaders, that I really could not talk about that for years and years. So something that I was nervous to put in the book was that story. And for me, it was a really powerful example of what happens when we become disconnected from our values and related to what we were just talking about when we attempt to please others over being in integrity to ourselves. So that was probably one of the things that I was most nervous to write about. And perhaps something that I'm interested to continue talking about is actually related to this as well, which is we can't control other people's responses and we can't control other people's actions. And, you know, there's a section in the book which you helped me craft the language around the kind of the header for. So thank you for that. Which was something along the lines of. It's in the section about conflict and having hard conversations. Something along the lines of what if none of these tools work? And I don't think that that's talked about enough in courses on conflict, on courses on feedback, on courses on communication, which is we can do every single thing right. We can use every tool in the book. We can read every book about communication and conflict and nonviolent communication and radical candor, whatever other modality we want to throw on top of it. And that doesn't mean that the other person has done their work to be able to engage in conversation in a skillful way. And my observation is that when we get ourselves in that situation and when we experience that rupture from the other person, that can be so painful and that can be so jarring, and it's not necessarily something that we can control. So that's one that I find interesting and one that we don't necessarily need a toolkit for as much as we need some healing and the ability to release some of the behaviors of that other person if we do find ourselves in one of those moments of explosion with someone who maybe hasn't done as much inner work or has more of a, you know, a fragile core self that we happen to accidentally step upon.

Right. Ooh, explosion is such a good word for that. And I agree. It's not talked about nearly enough of recognizing when you're dealing with a rational person who has a willingness ultimately to reach harmony versus someone with psychological issues that explodes with no capacity, ability, or desire to reconcile. And it's hard being an empathic person and for both of us, is deeply seeking harmony to get in those situations. And then I've had them too, in my past where you realize, oh, we're not on the same page here at all. You know, there is no harmony unless I act as they want and do exactly as they want. And so, yeah, I agree. I'm glad you brought that up. As we wrap up this conversation, you know, I could talk to you all day, every day, because I often do. We often trade polos. What one action or next step would you like to leave listeners with?

Well, first of all, just want to thank you, Jenny, for the opportunity to have this conversation. Likewise, I always love talking with you, so thank you so much. And thank you to everyone who is listening for being part of our conversation from afar. If folks who are listening are interested in some of the stories and some of the ideas that we talked about, I would love to invite people to check out the book. They can do that@zingcollaborative.com book there's a lot more info on the book and some free resources and things like that. And I guess in terms of a concrete action that listeners could take just right away, I think it ties back to that pause. So you and I talked about pausing before we respond to an email or pausing before we respond to a request. And the invitation I might leave people with is, is there a place in our life today where we could pause perhaps before we answer someone in a conversation, you know, before we react to something, before we say yes, even just a little pause in the morning before we start our day so that we can connect to ourselves and connect to what feels true and, you know, connect to our own values and that place of really clean energy so that we can go forth through the rest of our day acting from a place of integrity and, you know, making the best possible decisions that we can.

Yes. The power of the pause. Yeah, I love that. Just shining that light of awareness as you share so beautifully throughout the book. But just by pausing, we can be more intentional about what we're saying yes and no to. And I still cast a vote for that workshop. It sounds so good. Of creating a resonant yes through the power of no. Ooh, I just would love for you to resuscitate that, given how much has unfolded these last three years.

Yeah, I'll have to dig that up from the archive. That's one that's still in the Google Drive archive. Maybe bring it back.

That's in the 499 tragedies.

Exactly, exactly.

You cut them in half and you'll be ready for your next book.

Exactly.

Sarah, this is just such a joy. Thank you for being such an incredibly bright light in my life and the world and through even your giving and generosity. It's just incredible to see and an honor to be your friend. So thank you for being with us here today.

Oh, my goodness. My pleasure, Jenny. And likewise. Just so grateful for you and so grateful for all of your ASG support in the course of writing my book and our path together. So thank you so much. Yay.

Happy launch. Let's see where our little book twins go.

Yes. I cannot wait to see them on more shows, hopefully in people's homes together.

Listeners. I have a few copies of Sarah's book and so I've put her books all over my house like it always. I always set it with free time. So free time and expansive impact sit on the shelves together in every room at the house.

Yes, they're very close siblings.

Yes, exactly. They're conjoined twins now.

Yes. Yes, exactly.

Oh, my goodness. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you everybody for listening. I hope you all have a beautiful rest of your day.

Thank you, Jenny. And thank you, everyone.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter at Jenny Blake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.

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