282: The Honor Roll Hangover with Melody Wilding

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We don't really traditionally think of sales or persuasion as requiring sensitivity, but it does because you have to understand what emotions might this other person be feeling? What obstacles could be getting in their way? How do I empathize with their experience? So it's all the qualities you need to be successful at doing something like that.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of the only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello. Hello my friends. I am so excited to be here today with Melody Wilding. Melody is an executive coach human behavior expert. She teaches graduate level human behavior and psychology at the Silverman School of Social Work at Hunter College in New York. Her writing is regularly featured on Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Forbes. I was honored that she did an interview with me for free time and so many more. We're talking about her book that's done incredibly well called Trust yourself, Stop Overthinking and channel your emotions for success at work. Melody, welcome to the show.

I am thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

This book is so robust and I told you before we hit record that the diagrams are just food for a book lover's soul because they encapsulate information so well. And the one that I want to jump straight to is the Honor Roll Hangover. This is a three circle Venn diagram that you talk about those of us who have, as you call us, sensitive strivers. In the book, we often struggle with the Honor Roll Hangover, the trifecta of perfectionism over functioning and people pleasing. I can only imagine that you have personal experience with this, so I would just love to start with how did this moniker of the Honor Roll Hangover come to you?

100%. I mean it directly comes from my own experience as that gold star good girl just wanting to please and do well and get all of the A pluses being that in my younger life, but that now following me into adulthood and my career. And so that was my personal experience. But it was a pattern I saw again and again with my coaching clients who would literally say to me, I feel like I'm failing at this and I just want to get an A and wanting that gold star and external validation from people and really observing how those habits that made us successful as students, that made us honor roll worthy, now can get in our way as adults and can actually start to hinder us.

I've talked a lot throughout the years. Pivot, the podcast has been around since 2015 and perfectionism and people pleasing come up all the time. I'm always saying I'm a recovering perfectionist, recovering people pleaser, but the one that I've talked about less and yet is just as fascinating came up a little bit in the conversation recently with Sarah Young is this idea of over functioning. I first heard Terri Cole say that word it was a couple years ago and she was talking about boundaries and that a lot of her clients over function. So I'd love for you to tell us what that means.

Over functioning is when you take on more responsibility than is yours to bear. So over functioners it masquerades as helpfulness. You're probably the first person to raise your hand for a project. You'll work late if the team needs to finish something. You are always taking on more than your share of responsibility. So it can even look like trying to take responsibility for appeasing people's emotions, making sure that everything feels copacetic and everyone's okay. And by over functioning it can create this dynamic where it allows other people to under function. So you may have loved ones in your life who are not pulling their weight or. Or you may have trained your team to be dependent on you to the point where they can't do tasks, they can't answer questions themselves. So over functioning it's tricky because we love being helpful. We want to serve others, we want to improve them and make things better, but can really backfire in this way, not only exhausting you, but also leading to a lot of resentment when you try to fix or change or rescue other people.

Yes, you talk about the four feelings test tension, resentment, frustration and discomfort. And I notice myself when I start to get resentful and very cranky. Like small things make me very angry. Then I realize that I've probably been in a cycle of either perfectionism or over functioning. I just think it's so interesting how you tie them together like I don't think I've ever heard anybody tie these three. I love the moniker, the honor roll hangover. They are part of this vicious cycle. It's like the perfectionist wants to get it right. The over functioning is thinking no one else can do it right. So we step in and go to their side and try to take things over. And then the people pleasing is just as insidious. And it's like, I want you to acknowledge that I'm getting an A in life in work on this team. And this wanting to be liked. And so it's like wanting to be perfect, wanting it to be done well, wanting to be liked. Oh, and yet there's so many of us who struggle with these things, myself included.

Yeah, absolutely. And like you were saying, you know, perfectionism makes us think that there's only one right way to do something and that we have to figure out what that solution is. And if we don't do it that way, that we failed or we fell short or were inadequate. And over functioning can also lead you to avoid asking for help because you don't want to appear like you don't know what you're doing. You have to feel like you're always keeping up appearances that you have everything together. So that's another way that the over functioning perfectionism can go hand in hand because you feel like you have to strive for this flawlessness and you're hypercritical of yourself.

Do you think? I mean, of course, Everett is like the number one thing of therapy is just like, tell me about your childhood. What patterns have you seen in common with people who develop these traits or they're on a roll hangover. I would imagine that some of it is genuine growth orientation, like this drive to succeed. However one defines the term, the desire to grow, the desire to make an impact. Have you seen any other patterns in terms of what forms the honor roll hangover? Like, how does this come to be early on? And I have a feeling that teens today are struggling with this now more than ever.

Yeah, absolutely. And so I think that that brings us to this idea of being a sensitive striver. So I think part of it is nature and part of it is nurture. So on the nature side, you have people, you have a certain percentage of the population who is naturally more sensitive, meaning they're more attuned to what's going on within them, but also around them. So that leads to being more vigilant of your surroundings, being more aware of other people's emotions when they May be upset or disappointed or hyper aware of other people's needs, which can make you accommodating because you know, if you do something a certain way, that's what will make someone happy. So there is this sensitivity piece also. Just feeling everything more deeply yourself, being highly self aware. But then there's a nurture piece. So what I find is that a lot of sensitive strivers or people that struggle with over functioning for one reason or another had to take a role in their family where they were parentified very early. You know, maybe their parents weren't reliable or worked a lot, so they had to step in to have sort of a parent role in the family. They may just be very independent. I know, you know, when I was younger I was just always very independent. And I think being told we've seen a shift now, I think with the way we parent our kids with growth mindset, there's been a shift to focusing more on valuing and rewarding kids for their effort and their character, not necessarily their achievements. But I think when you and I were children, that wasn't the case. You know, you were awarded for the gold stars and the A pluses. And so you feel like you have to keep constantly one upping yourself. It's not enough that you are on the dean's list the next year you have to get another award and you have to be on these committees and you feel like you're running on this treadmill against yourself. So I think all of those factors, just your natural disposition, but then some of the upbringing and of course societal influences. I mean, I know I certainly grew up in an age where social media didn't exist, but now you can just constantly compare yourself to other people and feel like I'm never doing enough, therefore I can never rest. So I have to keep over functioning, I have to keep doing more in order to justify that I'm a worthy person.

Yeah.

So I think it's just a constellation of all of those things coming together.

Yeah. And just even the way the school system is set up, well, you got to do well on your PSATs so that the next year you can do well on your sats so that you can get into the right school. And then when you get into the right school, you got to get the right internships. And there's this sense of pressure at every step along the path because we do have a lot of winner take all type markets. The ivy leagues compared to the community college or the big tech companies compared to something else. And it's like there are These situations where there's sort of disproportionate gain if you can somehow. I mean, this is when we're stuck in that linear mindset, of course about growth and opportunity and abundance. But I don't know about you, but like by the time I got to college and right out of college I was already exhausted, I was already working myself to the bone. So it was no surprise that working at a startup, working at Google, it was just more of the same of these kind of high achievers. And then being, as you call it, being a sensitive striver within that environment, my body just starts to collapse because it's like I can't do this anymore. And so I don't know what your signals were. Mine just happens where I'll get sick and things will start going wrong physically. To say that I only learned in later years, oh, this isn't a fit. Like, you know, I gotta get off the treadmill cause I'm gonna get sick. Did you have an aha moment like that? Some kind of wake up call?

I can't tell you how sick similar my story was to yours exactly. Feeling like again that honor roll hangover of go to a good school, get high grades, be super involved, get a good job and just feeling like you were checking all of the boxes and then being dropped into the work world and feeling like that just continued. And so at the beginning of the book I tell a story about one of my burnouts that really was the wake up call for me where similar to you, my body just gave out on me. I can remember just one weekend finding myself in bed and I was so paralyzed. I was such a shell of who I was, I didn't even have enough energy to get out of bed. And that was the moment where I saw some of my bad habits and my tendencies had caught up with me and I needed to change that and then change the environment around me to support that. But that was really my wake up call was my body literally stopping me in my tracks because I wasn't listening to it.

We'll be right back just after this.

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I'm curious if this still shows up for you now. I mean, you and I are both doing work we really enjoy. You launched a book. A book is a big undertaking. Writing it, editing it, and then launching it. I have noticed sometimes I'll still crash after a big exertion like that. And I wonder how you to this day, like, how do you grapple with, you know, running your own race, but running it full out. And then sometimes, I don't know, I guess I'm asking this in an awkward way, but sometimes I find that it's good to exert oneself and I feel good doing that. And yes, I do still collapse on the other side. And then the fuzzy rest monster pulls me to the couch and then I stay there for a couple weeks and it's like I try to avoid the cycle of burnout, but at the same time, I don't know. I find as a sensitive person, as you describe, I oscillate more. I have big creative pushes and a lot of creative energy and drive and then I need to completely retreat. It's like my push and retreat are more extreme. It's not a steady state throughout a given year or two or three year period. I'm curious how that shows up for you.

I can completely relate and I think as a person who's more sensitive, your energy is your currency, right? So you have to practice energy management above all else. And that's a main reason why I work for myself, is so I can have that level of control over what projects I choose, how I spend my time. And listen, I am not always a good boss to myself, but I think one important lesson I've learned, especially over the last year, now that the book has been out, is not working to 100% capacity, only working or booking myself to about 75 or 80% capacity. Because something, Jenny, that I've learned very much from you, is to leave margin for serendipity to happen, but also to leave margin for those fluctuations to happen because Sometimes I just can't predict how much something is going to take out of me or when I'll have those periods of when I do need to retreat and integrate something. And so I think my tendency before really in the depths of the honor roll hangover was book myself to 120% capacity because I was afraid of open space. And I felt like 120% capacity made me feel like I was doing things that were worthwhile. But I've just learned over time that I need that margin, even if it feels uncomfortable to me that I'm not working to 100%.

Yeah. Oh, that margin, it's so important. And, like, it took me so long. It took me years. This came up in the conversation with Sarah, too. But to create a spacious calendar, because I would always say that I wanted margin or I wanted to do less, and then I would just still book myself up. I would say yes to too many things. And it's so hard to leave the open space. And I find myself, I don't know about you. My finger will be, like, hovering on my mouse pad. And I'm on a call with someone and they're like, can you do Tuesday the 9th? And I look, and it's this glorious day, free of any meetings at all. And there's such a temptation to go, yeah, okay, I can do that day. And yet there was nothing on there before. Now there's going to be something. Then I know myself. I'll add three more things to that day, because the day's already gone.

So.

Oh, it takes so much resistance to say, I'm actually not available on the 9th. I'm not even free next until the 29th. How's that for you? And it's a skill. It takes practice. So I'm wondering, what does margin look like to you? Like, when you say that you're learning to leave margin, how do you define that?

Yes. I relate to this so much. I think we're the same person. So that idea, I love it. Of leaving large blocks of open time, because, again, I think this is in reading. Dr. Elaine Aaron, who is the original researcher who discovered the trait of high sensitivity, she has talked about how sensitive people need more transition time and need more adjustment time. So if I have one thing on my calendar, I don't know what it is, but it's just really hard for me to get into the zone with the anticipatory knowledge that I know I have to be on in a different way later on that day or in the morning, for example, it's really hard for me to switch gears as a sensitive person. So I am pretty adamant about blocking so grouping like activities with like activities and really having full days where I can have that heads down work and being protective of that. So in my business I have to wear different hats at different times and behave differently in accordance with those roles. So at some times I have to have my CEO hat on, but at other times I have to have my admin hat on who needs to protect the CEO time. And so I've actually tried to think of myself as an employee of myself, if that makes sense. And that I have a duty to protect my time just like an executive assistant would for a executive of a company. And so that's helped me sort of build just a little bit of psychological distance to create those boundaries.

I have a client who she appointed a chief wholeness officer to counterbalance. She was working a really high profile job and the chief wholeness officer, just like you have your EA within your board and the CEO. One of my mentors, Susan Biali also told me she's a doctor and she studies burnout and resilience. She's working on a new book. She was telling me that the data shows that introverts get burnt out quicker. And I just thought that was so interesting. Like I haven't dug into that research yet myself, but kind of what you were saying that as a sensitive person or what Dr. Elaine Aaron's research, that we do need more time. I think it can feel so validating to just hear somebody say yes, you do need more time between meetings or more time to shift gears or it will be more disruptive to shift gears and context switch. And then this research on burnout, it made so much sense to me. I was thinking like I get socially burned out 10 times faster than my husband who is more extroverted. Like we have four nights out in a row. I'm like struggling by the end and I'm like, no more dinners. And I get like really upset set when we cram too many things day after day. I like, I can't handle it. And I know people who that'd be really joyful for them to have plans every day. It's just not for me. It's. So anyway, that's like a side rant.

Yeah.

And I think to think about it as someone who's more sensitive or even more introverted, there's a large overlap between the two traits. About 70% of people who are sensitive are also introverted. So a very large overlap between the two. But you need to think about it as you're not only taking in more information. So it's like your hard drive is downloading much more data than somebody else's and you're processing that information and integrating it more deeply. And that's not just some woo woo thing. It's been proven in MRI studies that the brains of people with higher sensitivity have more processing. Their brains light up more in certain areas related to the emotional processing, decision making, attention, self awareness. So no wonder we get more exhausted. We're literally expending more energy. So like you said, I think it just helps us have a little more grace and acceptance with ourselves to understand that this is a biological imperative. It's not that you're weak or there's something broken within you.

I was happy to see in terms of data, you also say your emotions are a competitive advantage. 90% of top performers are also high in emotional intelligence. And 92% of executives rate soft skills like the ability to manage emotions as a critical priority in today's business environment. I also thought it was very interesting you say at the very end of Trust Yourself that when you initially had the idea for the book, a bunch of publishers declined it. They said they didn't believe that people identified as sensitive and that for those who did, they didn't see that as a good thing. Could you tell us a little bit about behind the book, your publishing journey? And I'd be so curious because I found the same thing with every single one of my books. There was plenty of rejections of people saying, this isn't going to work, there's no market, no one will buy this. But it only takes one publisher to agree. And in your case, you had a pandemic and a publisher that really changed things. So tell us, take us behind the scenes, a little bit of round one of pitching. And then it must be so satisfying to say, see, I told you.

Now.

A couple years out, just a little bit for sure. I'll start way back in early 2016 when my own honor roll hangover sort of took hold. And actually I had a publisher approach me about writing a book. And they said, we've been following you online, we love what you're all about. We would love for you to write a book for us. We don't really care what it's about, whatever you're most interested in. So that sort of, oh my gosh, you want me. And just that sort of ego trip took over and I put together a very not official proposal for a book that I thought they wanted and this was very much like, let me try to be something I'm not. Let me try to give you something you'll like and that you'll say yes to so I could be anointed by you. Kind of like getting into, you know, a top school when you actually really don't want to go there. So I was just giving them something I thought they would want. And I had a contract in my hand about 10 days later, didn't know what to do with it. And so I went to all the books on my shelf and looked up agents. And luckily my top agent, who is still my agent today, responded. And she gave me very wise wisdom at that point. And she said, don't do this just because someone wants you. She said, my gut instinct is that this isn't the book you want to write and that you want to spend the next 10 years talking about. And she was exactly right. So she encouraged me to really step back and take my time. And it took another three and a half years to come up with the concept of sensitive striver. And that was really a combination of looking at my own experience and what had drawn me to this work and where were my own struggles and what were my clients facing and what was unique about that. And then one day, sort of as a lightning bolt almost, I stepped back, I had a whiteboard where I wrote down all of the struggles my clients were facing. And I was sort of grouping them, and I stepped back and I saw, oh, it's the sensitivity piece, but it's also the striving piece. And so that came to me then, and it was like the rest of the proposal. And even the book itself was sort of just like a download because I was so much clearer on the organizing concept. But going to meet with publishers was very interesting. And the primary comment from people was, we don't think there's a big enough market for this book. And the people who we do think identify as being sensitive don't want to be that way. That this is a dirty word and it's not something that people want to be associated with. So it's not something we feel will have really mass appeal or that people will feel proud holding up on the subway or have on their desk. And that was really hard to hear, but it was one of those things, you know, when a concept won't leave you. And even though you hear people saying, yeah, we're not sure this is going to work out, every time I started to see the term with clothes clients or with people in my audience, they just Glommed onto it, loved it, immediately understood what it meant and said, oh my gosh, this is me. And so it was those clues and really trusting myself, ironically, that I had to do. And luckily we found a publisher that was in love with the idea and said, we wholeheartedly believe in this. We see the need for it. And really got my vision and identified that these people are out there because we know them. They are our colleagues, our partners. So like you said, it only takes one person.

And with the pandemic and everything, it's become all the more relevant that we're talking about mental health. I also love hearing you say the book came to you almost as a download because you talk about intuition being one of the gifts that sensitive strivers have. And so just to hear that in your language that this came to you and they gave good feedback because in a sense, maybe Sensitive Striver isn't the title because I always talk about that too. Like what would people carry facing out at the beach or at the gym? Trust yourself. It's like as a sensitive person, as you said, we're getting so much input and we have the urge to over function or people, please. But that trust yourself is the antidote to that hangover and that I love how you were able to pull that kernel out and that, that's the magnet, that's what we're drawing ourselves toward is this idea of trusting ourselves if we fall into this moniker, which is just so good of the sensitive striver idea.

Yeah, absolutely. I wanted it to be aspirational because I think for so many of the people I work with, and I'm not sure, Jenny, if you've had this, but you know, your whole life as a sensitive person, often you're told, stop being so sensitive. Quit taking everything so personally. Why do you get so upset? You're making a big deal out of nothing. So you're talked out of trusting your own experiences to the point when you get into your career. And many of the leaders I work with, they just constantly second guess themselves. They're riddled by imposter syndrome and people pleasing because they learned not to have a stronger sense of self. But luckily that can be learned. And it is so much about learning to rely on your own resourcefulness and judgment again and really reconnecting with that sense of intuition that you do have.

Yeah. And so relate to what you said. I had people I dated tell me I'm too sensitive.

It's true. It's like a lifelong thing of you're too sensitive. Don't Cry at work. I remember. I don't think to this day, I don't think I would really want to cry at work if I could avoid it. But I remember being unable to avoid crying in certain meetings or when they told me I was gonna have to. I had just become a manager and I was gonna have to tell half my team they no longer had a job job. And I couldn't help but cry. It's like, oh. I had one person, we called it like, watery eyes. I used to just say, oh, my eyes are just watery. The air is dry. You know, I would make jokes about that sensitivity. And it does. I think when I was growing up, it always felt like a liability. It just like I always described it as feeling too sensitive for my own life. Like, every day just hurt. Like the amount of anxiety and worry and sensitivity and reactiveness. And it's partly why I wrote Pivot and Life After College, for that matter. And free time. It's like, ah, it's hard to be a person, you know, and just wanting, especially with Pivot, wanting to ease the feeling of being so untethered or so unmoored or so rocked and rolled by every single change. And it's such a tie in with Trust Yourself. Because what pulled me through, what got me to the other side of everything I just described, of my inner landscape, was doubling down on intuition and surrender and spirituality and starting to connect with those ideas and those books and people like Penny pierce. We've done 12 episodes of the Penny and Jenny show on this podcast. By the way, those are the most popular episodes of six years of podcasting. People always say it's the ones with Penny. And so it's just so interesting that that's what I think deep down we are drawn toward. And I'm just so grateful to you and people doing this type of work, to name it. And to say, this doesn't have to be a liability, this can be a great strength, but here's what you're working with, and here are some tools for that. And I'm just so grateful. And I'm wondering, you know, since the book came out a little over a year ago, have there been any surprises or anything now that you wish you had put in the book?

Oh, that's a great question. I think what surprised me as I talked about just the concept of sensitivity and being a sensitive striver is how many men relate to the concept. Because I think there's actually biases both way that women are told, oh, you're too emotional, and all of that. You know, you're called certain words if you express your opinions. But men, on the other hand, are discouraged from being sensitive because they have to be macho and tough. And so what's been so fascinating is how many men have come into my world now that I've been talking about being a sensitive striver. And I think that just goes to show that it's a biological trait. So it's actually pretty equally represented among all genders. But it's just been so wonderful to see that you can be compassionate, kind hearted, thoughtful, no matter what your gender background. So I think that was something that surprised me.

Yeah. Ooh. I love that you brought up the men. And I think it's been so freeing as well for the men I know who can also acknowledge that they're sensitive. And that's so true and have a context for it.

We'll be right back just after this.

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Everything we just described of the sort of. I mean, now gender is becoming a whole spectrum. There's so much conversation around gender. But when you and I were growing up, there's all the gender roles and burden placed on women, but there's just as much placed on men. Of Boys don't cry. Oh, I can't even imagine, like. And I know Michael and I have had conversations where he's also talked about, oh, I'm highly sensitive, you know, like, oh, just this aha moment of you can be a man and have this extra sensitivity and not quite know what to do with it or not know how that fits in the idea of what it means to be a man growing up with. So it's really interesting to hear how much feedback you've been getting on that regard too.

Yeah, it's very heartening. You also asked me what do I wish I had included more of. And that, I think is very much channeling the upsides of sensitivity. So the reason most people come to me is because they feel like their qualities are getting in their way. Right. They're struggling with overthinking or People pleasing. As we talked about imposter syndrome, I mentioned that lack of confidence is also very common. So much of the book is focused on giving people tools and strategies to get out of their own way. But I wish I had spent more time or had more space rather to go into the upsides of sensitivity and leveraging that in the workplace, in our careers. You know, particularly, what I see a lot is sensitive. People don't believe they can be influential. They don't believe they can, for example, do what you and I do, Jenny, which is do speaking and put your ideas out there. Or they don't believe that they can be persuasive in the workplace. They don't believe that they can manage up properly. And that's not true because actually we have all of the qualities within us to do those things authentically and be successful at it, but we haven't framed our qualities and our attributes that way. So I wish I had spent more time going into how do you channel and leverage and act on the upsides.

I think that would be an amazing next project, even if it's not a full book, because it's true. Even I think so many of us. I've read the highly sensitive person, as you mentioned earlier. But what I love about your work is you're really connecting it to the working world that we're in today. And so I love the idea of showing examples of how people are really leveraging that. And it's true. Like, you know, even you mentioned something like keynote speaking. So many keynote speakers I know are introverted. I know introverted and sensitive are not one in the same. There's just two more overlapping Venn diagram circles. But I think people will be surprised at how shy. I've met certain authors and speakers who have this big, loud presence online, and then you meet them in person and they're so shy. And it's actually really endearing. And then on the flip side, you know, I'm not a speaker that gets on stage and, like, performs with fireworks and sizzle, but I'm able to intuitively sense what does this audience need on this day. And usually that gives me ideas for little anecdotes or ways I want to deliver the material that. That probably do give me an edge. And just for you, too, Melody, when you're in that room and you're sensitive, you can pick up on the energy of the room.

Absolutely. That adaptability, flexibility of responsiveness to what's going on around you. And I also think being. We don't really traditionally think of Sales or persuasion as requiring sensitivity. But it does because you have to understand what emotions might this other person be feeling, what obstacles could be getting in their way, how do I empathize with their experience? So it's all the qualities you need to be successful at doing something like that.

I love it. So before we wrap up, you and I have so much in common, but we share another love of permission and permission slips. On the Free Time podcast, at the end of every conversation, I always ask what someone wants to give permission. But today I had the idea, wondering if you'll humor me, that I could ask you your own permission slip questions, maybe half of them. And we could do this as a rapid fire round and I could read out the prompt and you could just answer in the moment, whatever comes to you. Are you down?

I like. The table's turning. Let's do it. I will do my best not to overthink it.

Oh, okay. Yeah, because it's like you wrote these, but they're so good and I just thought, ooh, I would love to ask Melody and hear what you say. Okay. I hereby grant myself complete and unlimited permission to.

Rest more in order to.

Be more creative.

Love it. Specifically, I have permission to feel unproductive. Oh, so good. I have permission to be.

Less than perfect.

Ooh, I love it. Specifically, I have permission to push when.

My energy is high and I have.

Permission to rest when my body tells.

Me to slow down.

I have permission to start.

Working on my next book.

I have permission to try.

Putting new ideas and concepts out there.

I love it.

Two more.

I have permission to stop.

Comparing myself to others. Oh, I'll take that one, too. And, well, maybe I'll do two more because I want to read the last paragraph too. I have permission to let go.

Of.

The obligation I feel to others.

Okay. And now I'm going to skip one little chunk and come to giving myself full permission and wholeheartedly believing in myself is important right now because.

The people in my life deserve the best of me.

I trust myself to.

Figure it out.

As I go and know that no matter what happens, I've got this.

Yay. Cute. Fireworks. Look how good your permission slip is. Very thought provoking. Ooh, I appreciate you going there with me.

That was surprisingly hard.

Yeah, well, it's like you live and breathe this, and these are big questions. I mean, we didn't even get into Forgive Myself for so good. What a powerful permission slip. Yes, and thank you.

I was so excited to also see a permission slip in free time. I was like this is amazing. And the permissions at the end of each chapter, I love those reminders.

Yeah. Because you know what I realized writing a book that people do not really need more to do. I mean, of course, reading free time, probably a lot of people feel overwhelmed. There's so much they could do. But, like, so much of our unhelpful habits come from shoulds. That's why permission's so important to me of just, like, what can I help people drop? Let go of? Think about differently. Just get out of the box On. And I'm curious. Cause I didn't ask you, but I'm wondering. This prompt is really powerful as well. It's time to forgive myself for. I mean, just that alone connected with this permission idea. Forgiveness. That must be a huge element. I wonder what you would say in this moment around forgiveness. Self forgiveness to myself in terms of.

What I need to forgive myself for.

Yeah.

I forgive myself for the ways I have treated my body in the past.

I was thinking the same thing. You and I could have answered these problems in just such similar ways. I really appreciate you saying that. Just today, literally this morning was like, okay, I gotta give myself permission. That I was not some, like, workout champ during the pandemic and that I gained weight. I didn't lose it. I developed worse eating habits, not better. And that's it. It's like this. We go full circle back to the honor roll hangover. It seems like one of the antidotes out of that loop is are these permission slips and also forgiveness and just forgiving all the transgressions, large and small, that we make in those three areas of perfectionism over functioning and people pleasing and just starting anew. Trusting ourself again, trusting ourselves more. Starting anew.

Yeah. Even the word forgiveness, it makes my stomach turn a little bit because I think the high achiever, the honor roll hangover in me says you can't forgive yourself. You need to keep pushing yourself and work harder and be better. And it's just every time that that happens and it's another opportunity to rewire that conditioning.

Yes. And I find. I'm so glad you spoke to that feeling because I also find the word forgiveness gives me a little shudder as well, because it means admitting something that I might regret or admitting something that I dropped the ball on or, you know, oh, it's. That's a tough one. Forgiveness and regret, I think, kind of go hand in hand a little bit.

Yes.

Melody, this is just so joyful to talk with you today. Thank you for sharing with us. And being so vulnerable at the end. I love that you mentioned your next book because I already can't wait to read it and tell listeners beyond checking out their own copy of Trust Yourself, stop overthinking and channel your emotions for success at work. Where can people find you?

You can find me at my website, melodywilding.com and pretty much anywhere on social elodywilding.

Amazing. And melody writes for Forbes. You have a couple different places that you put out your ongoing public original thinking. Where can we find those? Where's the most frequent places you can find?

Forbes, hbr, Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Psychology Today, just to name a few of them.

That's amazing. Way to go. Way to go. Thank you. Technical writing is my Achilles heels, so I love that you're doing that. Thank you so much Melody. And big thanks to everybody who's here listening.

Thank you Jenny.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm doing, reading, watching, listening to, and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.

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