284: The Art of Horse Whispering and Trust-Building with Grant Golliher

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If you have fear, you're just going to keep running from what you're afraid of. It might be something in your past, it might be an abuse, it could be whatever. But if you never face up, you're never going to overcome it. When you do finally face up, you realize you have power over it if you will face it.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast. If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Welcome back everybody. We are in for such an incredible treat today. I'm here with Grant Gallagher. He's a horseman and the proprietor of the historic Diamond Cross Ranch in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, where he teaches corporate executives, coaches, celebrities, families from all around the world the skills necessary to tame troubled horses. And I would go so far as to say, earn their beloved trust and become leaders and better people. Today we're talking about his new book, Think Like A Lessons in Life, Leadership and Empathy from an Unconventional Cowboy. He's also the author of Horses Never the Heart of Passive Leadership. Grant, welcome to the show.

Hi Jenny. Thank you.

I have a special place in my heart for the work that you do because the reverence that you have for animals in general and specifically horses is so special. And I find myself drawn, like much of the stories and the audiences you teach in person, drawn to this magic of nonverbal communication, but specifically trust building that you've been able to make a career doing. So I would just love to start by asking you, what is your favorite thing? If you could just name one or maybe two about this magnificent being of the horse.

Well, I just love them. I mean, I always have since I was a child and I never stopped loving them. I guess I love to hug them, I love to smell them, but I love working with them. And I guess it's because I can relate to Him. Maybe it brings out the wild in me because I love the wildness of a horse. I think I just feel more at home around a horse than I do anything else.

In your book. You talk about Freckles as one of your best friends. Can you just take a minute and tell us about Freckles and your relationship with him and what makes him so special?

Freckles is amazing. He is such a great leader and an example of a great leader. He's been the ranch boss here for 25 years. He's going on 28 years old now, so he's been with me since he was three years old. But he was just a gift to Jane and I when we got married. I was riding horses for this great old guy in Colorado that raised horses. And when I told him we were getting married, he took Jane and I for a long drive in his pickup and showed us all the ranches he had and gave us a good long lecture on how to treat each other. And then at the end of the day, he came back to a pasture and he pointed out a beautiful young gray colt in the pasture. And he said, and I want you to have that horse. That was the beginning, because we didn't even have the money to buy him. He wasn't going to give him to us. He said, just pay me whenever you can. Doesn't matter. But I had used Freckles older brother Chub to break in a bunch of mustangs, rope a bunch of mustangs. I loved him. And so I think that's why Griff, his name was, he made sure that I had Freckles. And Freckles was just amazing from the beginning, his most gentle, kind soul. And I used him for my demos right from the beginning. So for 24 years now, he's been my go to horse. You can ride him without a bridle. I could take him out and rope a cow in the pasture on him and doctorate without even having a bridle on him. So he's been real special. He has one fault, though. He opens the gates and he can pick the lock on almost any gate. So if you're not careful, he will let the whole herd out.

Oh, my goodness.

And take them for a journey.

That is really funny. I bet they love when he does that.

Oh, they do love him. And not only does he let all his boyfriends out, he goes across the street and lets all the girls out.

My gosh.

Yeah. He gets everybody together and takes him out to new, fresh feed, I guess.

Oh, my gosh. And he must know that it's wrong. Like he must know that it's not what you want him to be doing. It's like a sense of humor in this somehow.

Oh, yeah, he knows. He knows what he's doing. Because when he's over there picking the lock, I yell at him, and sometimes I'll throw a rock at him.

Oh, my gosh. You described him as having a really good, kind soul. And I know in the book, you talk a lot about the nature and nurture of horses and the parallels that they have to people, and you end up working with horses that have had some trauma in their background. I've also always been curious about the innate personality and soul of these animals. I mean, you must experience them the way they do people, where they have this unique soul within them and personality. I'm just so curious about your lens on that.

Well, they do. And I was fortunate to work with a man named Tom Dorrance, who was really one of the founders of this philosophy of training. He's reverenced among most of my peers. Of course, he's been gone for a long time now, but he. He was helping people when he was as old as 93. But I remember him saying that there's another part to a horse that I think we don't really see or understand, and that's the spirit of the horse. And he really felt that way, that horses have an inner spirit, I think, as we do, and not just an animal, but they have a sensitivity that goes far beyond our ability. So I think there's so much we can learn from them if we try to just tune in to their soul and their spirit and how they are really feeling. And I think this is where many of us as horse trainers really miss. You know, we're trying to build an animal into something that we want it to be, but we really need to ask the horse what he's supposed to be and what he wants to be. It's not magic. I think it's just like people. You try to bring out the best, find out what their gifting is and build on that and place them where they are happy. They enjoy what they're doing, and they enjoy their life. And when they do, they're, you know, very successful at it.

You mentioned looking for their unique gifts. What would be some examples of one horse who has certain special gifts that maybe wouldn't be appreciated in another context?

Yeah, well, we love cutting horses. We show a little bit, and I don't know if you know what that is, but it takes a horse that's very quick. Can see when a cow even wiggles an ear so it's ready to jump over and stop that cow. So they're really wonderful at that job. But they're terrible trail riding horses, for example, because if a duck flies up, they've swapped ins and gone the other way, or a thistle, tumbleweed comes out from under the fence, or they're going to see that like 30ft away, 30 yards away, and move very quickly. And that's not something you enjoy when you're out for a pleasure trail ride. So that would be a good example. It's like, well, this really isn't a trail horse, but he's got ability. So one of the things is, you don't criticize a horse for what you don't like about him. You'll try to say, okay, maybe there's something else he ought to be doing.

I love that mindset and looking for, yeah, the right match and environment that's most appropriate. And that's such a big theme of your book, is not making these animals wrong and just submitting out of dominance, force and control. I mean, that's such a powerful theme that it sounds like you've learned from several of your mentors that it doesn't work in the long run to just impose one's will, whether you're trying to train the horse, break them, assign them to work. So I really appreciated that theme throughout your riding and your career.

Well, the reality is it does work to an extent. And that's where we've been wrong for so long, is just because it works on some horses, to an extent, doesn't work as good. But we've gotten by with it kind of forcing the horse and dominating the horse. So just because it works a little bit, we think it's right. And that's how I was. I didn't realize that until I saw what Ray Hunt, another man, was, actually had worked with Tom Dorrance a lot. When I saw what he could do with the horse, I'm like, I can't do that.

What would be an example of what he could do that you had never seen?

The first time I saw Ray Hunt, he was doing a clinic in la. He was on his horse and he took the bridle off his horse and he just said, if I just think about turning to the right, I want my horse's mind to come to the right. I'm not going to just pick up a bit and pull him to the right and make him come to the right. I want him to think about coming to the right before he moves his feet. And then, of course, that horse's head would just turn to the right. And then he said, if I think about turning the left, his head would just turn to the left. And I'm like, how did he do that? And so that is really the key to it is just is how subtle it is a subtle communication where you're not yelling, you're whispering, so to speak. I mean, that's where it all came from. You're not really whispering. But people say, well, what did he do? Did he whisper? I didn't hear anything. But horses are so sensitive that we're actually play on that sensitivity. And one of the things that, you know, that Ray Hunt used to always say, and I use it too, is, you, honor, the slightest try and the smallest change. So when the horse just makes it even a thought to do what you want him do, you release the pressure. And basically you congratulate him for thinking about doing the right thing. And then based on that, that felt good to him. So he follows what we call a feel rather than, you know, force, fear, intimidation, repetition. Make them do it. Forcing them into doing something they don't want to. We set it up so it's their idea, and then we congratulate them for having the idea and doing what we ask them to do.

There's a lot of parallels. I studied dog training from a woman, Susan Garrett, who her whole philosophy is called it's your choice. And how do you make the choice that you want the dog, or let's say, the horse, to choose to go parallel with what you know? How do you make those two one in the same? And so I love what you said, too, of rewarding, like honoring even the smallest steps and then rewarding even the smallest bits of progress. When Roy was in that moment saying, if I think about going right, I want the horse to even think about going right, would he be applying any even micro movement, like a little extra pressure with his right knee, for example? Would there be any physical indication, no matter how small, of what he was thinking?

Oh, absolutely, he would. Because you do apply a pressure, the pressure ends up being so little that you can hardly see it. And that's the goal that you're after. But what you're willing to apply more pressure until you get the horse to respond. So it's not like being soft and kind all the time. You know, I want people to know this. It's not just about being kind and soft to a horse all the time. It's about being as firm as you need to be, but as soft as you can be. And you always honor the slightest try, you know, so sometimes, and Tom used to say, you know, be as soft as you can, but as firm as you need to be. But it may take all you got. And usually he was talking to somebody that just wants to be nice to their horse all the time, but they're not willing to be firm. See, to get the softness, you have to have the firmness. You have to be willing to. To do what it takes. And it's never abusive, I promise you. Never abusive. But sometimes it takes a lot of pressure to get a response because the horse doesn't always want to do, you know, what you're asking him to do. He'd rather just kind of go be a horse like a teenager would like to go sit on the couch maybe at certain times. So it is applying the pressure but not releasing that pressure when the horse is resisting. You always keep a pressure, keep a pressure, keep adding a little pressure until you get the slightest response. And this is what's important, because we tend to, like, not honor that when we get a little frustrated or angry. They were like, give me more. So it's really not. It's like when they do it, good, good. That's what we're saying. The horse doesn't understand English. But our body language and our feeling, they're so tuned in to us and how we feel that they get our emotions. Believe me, you can't lie to a horse. They are going to read you like a book.

Is it like dogs where they can respond to a positive tone of voice? Like when you say, good, good. Do they respond to that as well, or is it something else?

You know, honestly, I don't think that's it. But we do that because that's how we feel and it's how we want to feel, and the horse feels what we feel. It can be a tone of voice in a sense, rather than harsh. Harsh or loud or abrasive tone. But it's really more of our body language, and it's a nonverbal communication primarily. I don't use much in the way of language English to talk to a horse. I may use the word whoa and if he's doing something wrong. Or I'd usually just use a couple of sounds. One is.

And see horses, because they're around human all the time and they don't speak English. They don't really pay attention to what we're saying. So we could be talking to each other, blah, blah, blah. And then all of a sudden say something to a horse and it's just blah, blah, blah. But if we're talking away and then the horse maybe be doing something incorrect and I would want to correct him, I would just go, and that noise, Gotti's attention. So there's a couple little noises I use. I use a little clock. I use it to move the front end away and to maintain respect. So just a couple of little things, but mostly it's non verbal.

This non verbal sensitivity that they have is so fascinating. You've talked about how, as you said, they know when we're lying and that of an entire crowd, they can usually pick out the people that they deem untrustworthy or unsafe. And I'm so curious what you think it is because they must have such a subtle way of reading that body language as you described, that there could be 30 people standing in a pen and they all know which one they don't want to approach. And I wonder what it is. What do you think? The horse? I know you said it's about feel, but what are they picking up on that sometimes humans miss?

You know, I wish I could answer that question, but it's been proven over and over that they can do that. And so I think it just comes from, you know, how they've survived the saber toothed tiger, as Ray Hunt used to say, they've survived predators. So they are so alert to a predatory action or a predatory feeling that they just seem to know when a predator is coming in on them. So to the horse, we are like a predator until we prove ourselves not to be. And that's why we try to act like a horse instead of a predator. We don't slink around. Our body language is a little more like a horse than a predator. If we want them to think we're being the lead horse, and that's really the idea here, is we're trying to be the lead horse of the herd and they accept us the way they accept a lead horse and not a predator chasing them around.

We'll be right back just after this.

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I wonder if people who are unsafe, let's say, are untrustworthy. I wonder if they're emitting some subtle fear signal within themselves that's even almost like a pheromone or something that maybe dogs or horses could pick up on that humans can't, that it's even part of a snake scent, some kind of invisible. I mean, I should do the research on this because I don't know for sure, but I wonder if it's just the physicality alone or if there is some sensory element that's happening. Not that all predatory people even are fearful. You know, we know that if someone's a psychopath, they might not feel any fear at all.

Yeah, I mean, I have a friend that worked with ex cons and wild horses for 25 years and we've had some great discussions and easy. I've even worked with him a little bit. His name's Mike Buchanan. He actually wrote a book too, but he hasn't finished it yet. And I'm encouraging because he would actually put a wild horse in with a bunch of new inmates and it's transferring them from high risk into just a. It's called the Honor farm before they go out into society. And the horses, I don't know if they smell it or how they know, but he said over and over that they would go around and pick the most dangerous guy and kind of swish their tail and then leave. And then they go around and find the pecking order that they could fit in and they would find the most beat down guy that's really not dangerous. He's just there, you know, for whatever reason, but he's not a threat at all. And they would hook up with that guy. And I've used it with fets with ptsd. I brought vets into the round pen with a wild horse and just have that horse move around through the guys, don't let them touch them, they just stand there. And same deal, the horse will kind of pick several guys and then, you know, usually the guy that's the most troubled one time in the book, I think I have it, the guy that had tried to kill himself and even had failed at that and the horse pretty much rejected him and it was kind of sad. But I finally convinced him to come back in and by helping him be less of a threat to the horse and then finally getting down low, like in a humble position, the horse hooked up with him and breathed into his whiskers. And it was a great moment. And that horse, you know, once he found out that that guy was not a danger, the horseshoes, he gravitated to him.

Wow.

So I think that's where a lot of the healing comes with people and horses is when they make a connection, and particularly when the horse accepts them. Because a lot of the things that we as humans, we don't like rejection, and we want the horse to like us or the child to like us, so we won't act accordingly. And like I said, it's not always a being submissive. But in this guy's case, he was a very dangerous man. You know, he'd probably killed people, a lot of people in battle. My guess is why they're so troubled. So he's a dangerous man. So the horse sensed that. But once he realized that guy wasn't going to hurt him, I think it was very healing to the man because this horse trusted him and it was a great moment. So we've seen it work over and over, but I can't say that I know anybody that really can explain it, including myself.

It must have been scary for the man you've been describing for him to crouch down in front of this big, big, beautiful animal. I bet that took a little bit of coaxing as well. It seems to me like you really have a way with the horses, and you've learned to apply that with people who are just as afraid and insecure or worried or whatever it is. And you don't force anybody, horses or people, to do anything. But I can imagine that was a leap of faith for that man to take us, well, to crouch down in the pen.

Well, it is. Part of what I do is teaching the horse to face his fear, because his natural instinct is to run from what he's afraid of. That's how he survived. But if I teach him that running away from his fear isn't really the answer, then pretty soon he will stop and say, I need to look at what I'm afraid of. When they do that, then you take whatever they're afraid away from them and show them that basically what they were afraid of is afraid of them. So it's really about conquering your fear. And, you know, I've seen it in humans my whole life, way before the corporate thing. I mean, just working with People that have fear. It's like if you have fear, you're just going to keep running from what you're afraid of. It might be something in your past, it might be an abuse, it could be whatever. But if you never face up, you can never gonna overcome it. When you do finally face up, you realize you have power over it. If you will face it and you can conquer it. I love the acronym Fear is False Evidence Appearing Real.

Yeah, I think it's so interesting too how, you know, you say you gotta keep moving small steps, as you said, rewarding those small steps. Speaking of how this has applied to people, I thought it was really interesting. In the book you talk about the contrast between Neil and Carl. Neil, this man you met, and you can tell us the story and gave him a chance and you built trust with Neil, and vice versa, slowly, over time. But you also throw in a little caveat. You say not everybody is trustworthy. And so I find sometimes that can be really tricky. I've navigated on a smaller scale than what you described, where I almost give trust too quickly or too much too fast, where a person hasn't actually earned that trust. So I would just love to hear maybe through one of these two stories how you've learned that lesson. Because sometimes you don't know until you get burned.

That's really true. And I think by nature we want to trust and we want to help those, you know, that are down. And Neil was one of those guys, he was a street guy that I felt sorry for and picked him up on the road one day. He's carrying all these cans, picking up aluminum cans and taking them to the recycle. And he wouldn't even talk. But, you know, just over time I helped him out and offered him a job and he did the job and then offered him another job. Pretty soon I let him stay on the place in a tent. Pretty soon we got him a trailer. And then as time went by, he just became like this incredible hand groom. I was riding 14, 15 head of horses a day. And he would catch them and get them all ready for me. And I was playing polo, professional polo at that time. And he came into the games and be. He was my groom and he just became a part of the family. Loved my daughter Tara. And it's just wonderful to see the transformation. And it just felt like you did when you took a horse that was just wild because he was like a wild animal. He lived in the bushes and he wouldn't talk to you. You know, he just was one of Those guys. But he ended up cleaning up and just becoming an incredible human being. But the horses I felt was his healing. He just loved the horses and, and grew in that.

Before we get to Carl, in that moment that you actually offered him a job, that seems like another leap of faith moment. What in you is it just a gut instinct and intuition? How did you know that that would be an okay next step with him?

He took the next step. See, I offered the little thing and he responded. So I offered him to come pull weeds for a day or whatever. He wanted to work. And then I paid him and took him back to his little camp in the bushes, you know. And so then I said, well, would you like to come back? And he said, yeah. So I think it's you offer and if they respond, it's based on their response. But you are always trying to set them up to succeed, trying to set them up. Don't over face them, don't overwhelm them. But giving something and then really congratulate them because sometimes they might have been a little kid, that daddy never said, good job or I'm proud of you and I know people like this. I have a friend says, why it was never good enough. You know, it was never good enough. How many times have you heard that I worked for this guy and was was never good enough or the parent. So it doesn't matter if you're a boss or a parent. It's like we have to honor the slightest try. And it might not just be, oh, you're wonderful, but it's like, good job on that. You know something. And part of that too is reading that person. What it might just mean a look. Sometimes it's just a look. And we really like to work hard for people that we respect, we admire, or in some way. So as a leader, you know, we're not perfect and we need to be open and transparent. But on the other hand, we need to lead by example. Try to be that leader that is worthy of respect and not just the boss because he has the ability to, you know, fire you or whatever. Of course that helps loyalty too. But you know, in Carl's choice with Neil, I said, if you want to drink, fine, but I can't have you drinking on the property. That was my boundary that I set. He left at times and got drunk and wouldn't be back for three or four days. But he'd come back sober and then he'd go back to work. And so I accepted that and eventually he just never left again. He quit drinking completely and he was an alcoholic. Carl, on the other hand, showed up, you know, same boundaries. He did a good job at first, but one day he just came in all drunk and he was all belligerent and so I had to fire him. I said he was raunchy and I have a child. And so, you know, there's a certain amount of mistrust there. You have already just based on the fact he's just a street person that you don't know can't have around your little girl. So we were careful, but he just violated the trust. So it's a two way street. I don't think you just give grace all the time without giving some responsibility.

And you say Carl stole a bunch of saddles on his way out too? To add insult to injury.

Yeah, he snuck back in one night.

Fortunately, I caught him because he was robbing my tack room, which is thousands of dollars of treasured tack that I had. And he had it strung out throughout the desert and he had a buddy that was ready to pick it up and in a pickup and just rob me blind. In fact, he got away with his saddle and then he found out it was so easy, came back to get it all. Fortunately, I caught him.

How did you catch him? Like, was it in the middle of the night? How did.

It was in the middle of the night. The dog growled and fortunately my wife looked out the window and just Carl. Someone in our tack room. And she recognized him as Carl. So I had her call the cops and I drove out to the end of the driveway because I figured he probably had somebody with a car there. Anyway, I managed it. I won't go into detail.

I was gonna say, did you grab the nearest shotgun. Yeah. And go to the end of the driveway?

Well, yes. And I didn't even, you know, like get dressed. So I'm standing there, my other underwear, with a gun on the guy that is.

Wow, the getaway driver.

Yeah. Until the cops got there. And you know, I mean, it was all reaction to me. And then I hear Carl rustling around in the bushes. See, he could have come up and club me in that.

That's what I was wondering if you. Yeah. If you get afraid that they have guns or something.

Exactly. But it was just reaction really. And of course the thought would I really would. I've been able to. I wouldn't want to shoot the guy, you know, I really wouldn't. I guess that's just a tough position to be in. Really. Was.

It's interesting how much instinct kicks in. So the dog growled your Wife woke up, looked at what was going on, your instinct kicked in. And even if you wouldn't have done anything with it, you grab something to protect yourself. I love this. Thank you for sharing with us. This image of you at the end of the driveway saying, this is not acceptable. You're not going to get away with this.

No, you're not. And, you know, it was dangerous on my part. I guess I could have just called the cops and hope they got there in time, but they wouldn't have. So I took it into my own hands there.

And then how did it resolve? So Carl was hiding in the bushes. Then what? Now I'm riveted.

The next day I was on my horse and I tracked, you know, where he went. You could see, of course, gathered up all my tack that was all over the desert. He was just kind of relaying. And from my tack room to the road, the pickup, when I caught him, he took off. And so I never did find him that day, but I did find him like a while later, kind of by the same grocery store behind the dumpster. And so I did call the cops. And anyway, they arrested him. And I basically got to, you know, if I would have pressed charges, he wouldn't went to jail. But basically they let me do what I wanted. And so I just talked to him and I said, if you give me my saddle back. Because it was a treasured saddle, the saddle was that he'd taken, gotten away with. I said, well, drop the charges, Carl. But, you know, why did you do it? You feel sorry for people like this. I mean, he was an alcoholic. He rode the rails and fell off a train and fell under the train and cut his leg off and drug himself to where somebody helped him. And he was missing a leg. And he would panhandle by the. In front of the grocery store and with a sign says, wounded vet, please help. So he was a real con guy. I mean, and he used to laugh about how in America you can just panhandle more than you can make working. So he said, yeah, I'd make $200 a day. Why should I work? You know? Well, that's an attitude. One of the things that I that I really deal with horses and try to help people with is if you deal with an attitude, you don't have to deal with an action. If a horse has a look in his eye or a body language sign, maybe his ears, swish his tail, you know what's coming next, he's going to kick you or bite you, strike you, or run over you, you know what it feels like before he bucks you off, if you've ever been bucked off hard, you know what happened just before it happened. So you begin to deal with an attitude before the action shows up. Very important, because, you know, the consequences of the attitude is you're going to get kicked and it may be, you know, very bad for you. So that's just. As a horseman, you become more sensitive to reading. And my wife and I, we've laid in bed thinking about this and talking about how this applies to people. And, you know, so often, like, with our teenagers, like, the attitude would come up. Well, we start to like, let's talk about your attitude. You got an attitude. So what's going on? Same with our employees. You can see when there's an attitude happening, we'll pull them aside, have a visit, because it's always going to escalate and cause problems, even with other employees. So we just feel like if we as leaders be more sensitive to what's really going on behind the scenes, we can stop a lot of problems that happen. And I even think, you know, like, before there's a school shooting, if we are just a little more observant, like horses are to their environment, we could pick up on that child that's got a problem before there's a serious problem. If we're recognizing some of those attitudes, and maybe not discipline, but maybe that empathy might come in, like, hey, what's going on with you? You know, because they feel bullied or whatever's really happening, but mostly we just are oblivious to it or we are afraid to try to help. And so I, you know, I think as a society, if we could just be a little better at that. Ray, how he's like, I can't help every horse, but I can help this one. And by helping this one, I might help his owner. If I can help the owner, I might help every horse and every dog and every child and every grandchild that he comes in contact with the rest of his life. So we're actually making a difference, even with the small things.

We'll be right back, just after this.

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You describe in the book how you learned by watching your father. You could see micro expressions or the micro shift in weather that might change. And it's interesting what you're describing with these kids who are behind these shootings that with a horse, if you're tuned in, you notice the flick of their ear could tell you about their attitude or something. The winds of their mood is shifting and it seems like part of the problem is there is no one. Part of their sense of neglect and not fitting in to society is that nobody is paying attention to even the micro, these micro signals that then escalate as you said after the Carl. So I know with Neil it kind of gave you hope. You know, I can make a difference here with one person at a time. And then Carl probably set you reeling backward a little bit. I don't know, I might have been hesitant then. I might have made a story out of the Carls of the world and not invited the next person to come work at the ranch. How did you handle it after that? What changed for you?

Just becoming more sensitive, asking more questions, I think. But you're still risking when you're dealing with troubled horses, troubled people. You know, my wife and I have kind of a rule we only take on one project at a time because more than one might sink your ship. But we have learned to see the gold in somebody that maybe somebody else is just abusing. And it's happened with us many times. I mean, I'll give you an example. We had this guy named John and we watched him. He was the garbage collector, you know, for the campground across the highway from us. And he was so faithful and loyal and. But his owner just was awful to him. And like after a while I'm, you know, I'm like, john, how's it going? He said, well, I think I've had all I can do. He was just a beat down guy. So we saw that loyalty, saw the good, good things in him. We hired him and he just became an incredible hand for us. And it Wasn't perfect, but we just tried to bring out the good. Build on the good, build on the self esteem. And sometimes you have to ignore some of the, you know, as a leader you have to ignore some of the things that they're not doing good and build on the good. That's one thing is stay on the positive as much as you can, build on that self esteem and then that gives you the right to criticize maybe the low thing and try not to even be critical of it. Just address them so you really make them feel good about what they're doing right. But there is a time when you have to address what they're not doing right. Again, that's just what we call feel as a leader. You have to have good feel, I think, and not just be that hard nosed leader or that the weak one that doesn't have clear boundaries because this is about bringing balance to life. It's not just about being soft and it's certainly not being abusive. But we are so afraid as a society of abuse. We've stopped discipline and so now we have children and kids that are running the show that parents aren't being parents anymore because they don't know how to be firm and consistent because they're scared to death of discipline and scared of abuse. So they don't discipline and they can't figure out how to discipline nowadays. So I think the elephant on the coffee table is pretty obvious to most of us that we've got to get better at this or we're going to lose even the next generation.

Yeah.

You know, when you have a horse that you spoil, he's going to become a dangerous, dangerous horse. And I think it's no different than, than children and horses really feel secure and love you when you're willing to discipline them. And I believe children are too. And aren't we all just kind of children in many ways? We really are. I hate to say it, but at least men I'll speak for.

Well, I love how you say in the book that discipline without love is abuse, but love without discipline is also abuse. And that the horses you have the most trouble with that have the most trouble even fitting in with the herd are the ones that didn't have any boundaries, that those are the most dangerous and the ones that get into the most trouble. Really? I thought that was a very interesting parallel.

It really is true. I mean the horses are a great example of a society that works. But they discipline among their ranks and once they figure out, you know, what works, they settle in really good and we have, in the winter we have a herd of about 50. They all work, live together. I have a friend who has a herd of called Yellowstone horses here, Jackson Hole, and he leases horses out to different guest ranches and he has 2,500 horses. Can you imagine how many horses that is in one huge pasture? And of course they feed with a team of horses in a sleigh. And so they go through and the horses have to jostle over feed. But it actually works if you watch it. But there is discipline among the ranks, there's respect to their elders. And so some of the old cowboy ways, you know, we really think we need to get back to is respecting your elders. You know, we still tip our hats to the lady, we open doors for ladies. Some of these things are traditions that we really believe in now. There's things that need to go. There's no question of our past that we need to fix and let go of. But there's some great traditions of the past, particularly in the west, that we believe we should hang on to.

I like you got a smile on your face when you said tip your hats to the ladies. It's just really nice, really nice fixturing that. Last question before I let you go. You've talked about the skill of feel and the non verbals. So if you could give listeners one way to build that muscle, one thing they could practice in the next week or two, what would it be?

I think it's really being observant of your space with horses. Someone that has good feel around a horse knows to how apply pressure and release it. Okay, so one of the things that we teach is to be slow to take and quick to give. When you apply pressure, don't just jerk them, you know, you pick up a rein, you take a feel with your lower fingers and, and you wait for the horse to start following that feel. As soon as he does, you release him. So it's a feel you're slow to take, but you're quick to release when he gives to you. So that's just an example in the old cowboy movies, you know, when he jumped on the horse and they grabbed the reins and jerked him over here and his face went in the air. And I tell people that's a piece of steel in a horse's mouth. You just grabbed it and jerked it and that's the most sensitive area in their whole body. So what did you just tell that horse? Well, I don't want to say it, you know, what the horse felt like, but that's wrong. So when you get on that horse, you pick up sloth and feel. And then we get that horse's feet to come with you, then he's with you. So the idea is the two of you become one. You're not fighting each other all the time. So it's a beautiful thing when a rider and a horse become one. That's feeling. It's not always comes easy, but if you're working it properly, you can develop that to where you know, you can ride a horse just like you're whispering to him, but you're not. He's just with you. He follows your eyes. He's so sensitive to you. It's a beautiful feeling when the two become one. And this is about relationship. I don't care if it's a husband and wife. You know, we like to feel like, my wife and I, we are one. Things flow good.

So there's so much to learn there. But I think with people we all know when someone's around, we might say that person has terrible feel. You know, are they talking to you and they're in your face and they don't give you a space to talk, or, you know, you're doing all the body language that says you're getting a little too pushy. You're in my face. I'm not happy about this, but you don't want to be rude and say, get out of my face. So we know what that extreme is of poor feel. So how about the salesman that's very good at sales, that looks you in the eye, ask questions, he waits for your response. He's actually communicating with you, but honoring you as another human being, that's equal to you. So that's just someone that has good feel. And over the years working with top salespeople, we really notice when they show up at the ranch, they shake your hand, they look you in the eye, they ask questions. They're very honoring, they're very respectful. So these are just some things that good leaders should have, and if they don't, they should work on them. And most good leaders we have found 25 years working with corporate executives, very successful people. People are successful for a reason. They have some of these things that a good horse trainer has. Non verbal communication, good feel, clear boundaries, just to name a few.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Grant. I really love and appreciate you sharing your stories and the wisdom of what you've learned from your mentors, what you've learned from the horses and all the beings that you interact with, large and small. So thank you so much for being here. Where can people find you if they want to learn more and keep in touch?

Well, certainly diamondcrossranch.com or our books, fortunately are all over the place now.

Yes, and they're beautiful. I loved all the photos of you that open every chapter. So amazing to see you in action.

Well, thank you. And I sure hope that our readers get a gold nugget. That's all it takes to make them a better leader or a better parent.

They will get many. Thank you so much Grant. I really appreciate it. Big thanks everybody for listening.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to to, and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter @jennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.