302: Moving Beyond Burnout with Dr. Susan Biali Haas

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I am so overwhelmed. I don't even know where to start. I can't do all of this. What should I do? I always say, what do you need the most? So look at that list. Take all the guilt away. And this is not about making sure that you're connecting with all these people in all these ways, because you should be. It's more what do you need and want in your life? And you can just have one or none. But it's not about adding the pressure.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Welcome back Pivoters. You are in for such a special conversation today with one of my longest time friendors, Dr. Susan Biali Haas. Susan commented on my blog way back in the day, I want to say 2008 or 2009 and she was so generous at that time offering wisdom and input and advice and we've kept in touch ever since. She is just somebody I cherish tremendously in my life and she is a spark in the world. She's an award winning medical doctor, internationally recognized for her expertise in mental health, stress management, burnout, prevention and resilience. Today we're talking about her brand new book, the Resilient Life. Manage stress, prevent burnout, improve your physical and mental health and live with more resilience. In addition to her 20 years of primary care experience, she also coaches a broad range of clients and she has a popular Psychology Today blog that I'll link to in the show notes with over 10 million views. Susan, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much Jenny. It's so exciting.

One of my friends joked that because you and I are both introverted, but because I'm so introverted, my love language is featuring people in their books and I would also add having them on the podcast.

But.

But I think it's a great crime that I didn't have you sooner in these last seven years that it took you writing a new book for us to make this happen.

It must be time.

Yes, it's definitely time. I enjoy all of our walk and talks and conversations so much. And this new book, of course, is perfect timing because you're addressing something that many pivoters experience, which is burnout. Specifically, as you say, if there's no work stress, it's not burnout, it's something else. Talk to us about what you call the shadow pandemic in the book. What is the shadow pandemic?

So the shadow pandemic is the phenomenon of burnout, of course, which has really come to the forefront over the last two and a half years. There have been so many factors that I've seen. I've worked with over 80 organizations, it might even be a hundred now. I've lost count since the pandemic began because mental health became such a prominent issue and so many of the challenges that organizations and people have been facing, like supply chain issues and increased workloads across all sectors and difficulty hiring talent and losing talent. So now everybody's short staffed and we know people are working longer hours than they have been since the onset of the pandemic with a pivot to virtual and that that hasn't shifted back. And there continue to be so many changes like now people shifting to hybrid and new ways of doing things. And then of course, all the stress and anxiety that came along with the last two and a half years that just people were under so much general life stress that it made them more vulnerable to burnout in the workplace context, which had also become much more difficult.

You talk about three personality traits of the big five in particular that are more vulnerable to burnout. And. And of course this resonated because I have all three in space being introverted, high on agreeableness, and what you call extra milers.

Yes.

You were the first person in my life who told me in a private conversation. You said, by the way, introverts are more prone to burnout. So keep an eye out. Why is that? Why is it that introverts, agreeableness and extra milers may be more prone to burnout than others?

The introversion piece seems to be because introverts by definition are drained by interactions with other people. It's not like you don't love other people. Like you're one of the warmest, kindest, most engaged people I have literally ever met in my life. But when introverts like you and I, when we're around people too much and in a work context, say especially with the pivot to virtual, everybody was suddenly just in back to back to back meetings continually, that under those circumstances, or when introverts have to interact a lot with the public, or if maybe you're in leadership and so you're dealing with people all the time, that especially if you're really, really busy and you don't have those opportunities to get by yourself and to recharge, you're going to get progressively depleted over time. So I always say to introverts and many leaders are actually introverts, you would think they weren't, but it's about 35% rate in high level leadership, top level leadership. People are introverts and they need to be aware of this because given the hours that high performing people keep, it's hard to be aware or recognize the fact that you actually desperately need to plan breaks while you're by yourself, take a meal by yourself, go for a walk by yourself. When you're in your home environment, there are people around who are all wanting to spend time with you, that because you're an introvert, in order to be at your best with them, you also are going to need time by yourself. And so it's really about educating the people around you and also finding ways in your day and to get that time by yourself to recharge.

One of the exercises you provide in the book, and there are so many throughout, is taking a social inventory. So you give some examples of that inventory of what we might need more of in our social life. Could be more time with a partner or spouse, more time with friends who make you laugh one on one with a close friend, more time going out on adventures with your kids or anyone else you like to have fun with, more time reaching out to distant friends and relatives who you love, and more regular planned activities with others, such as belonging to a team where you'll show up and have to go on a regular basis. Here's my quandary. I could answer on A through F, yes, I could think of someone in every single category or I could think of that there was part of me that does desire more across every single one of those dimensions. And yet my actual capacity doesn't correlate.

Oh, absolutely. I was listening to that list as an introvert and I was just cringing. I was like, please stop, please stop.

It creates a lot of guilt. I am constantly trying to reconcile what I call micro guilt because it's not guilty like I robbed a bank. It's this micro guilt of I'm constantly, never quite giving enough or as much as I would want to every single one of those categories or to any one of those categories. And I don't know just how do you deal with that? Because I know you're very similar. And you even said some of your friends have gotten mad at you or frustrated that you don't initiate more plans. And I'm the exact same way.

Oh, yeah, thank goodness for my extrovert friends. And something really important that I emphasize over and over in the book and whenever I'm working with people or speaking to organizations is that my intention is never to add weight to people, to pile on more shoulds like never, never, never. And it's interesting how people who are other very other oriented and tend toward feeling those kinds of burdens and guilt would read that list as an obligation or a suggestion that you must do all of these. Because that's actually not what I intended by the list. Those were just ideas for reflection, for people to reflect whether that was something that they would like to have more of. It's not about, you should be doing all these things in order to have your best life. It's more just like a list to inspire reflection. What I always ask or tell people because they will say to me all the time, I am so overwhelmed, I don't even know where to start. I can't do all of this. What should I do? I always say, what do you need the most? So look at that list. Take all the guilt away. And this is not about making sure that you're connecting with all these people in all these ways, because you should be. It's more what do you need and want in your life? And you can just have one or none. But it's not about adding the pressure.

Well, I think that's a great point. And I love that tone throughout your book is this is if it's joyful, this is if it adds. This is if it creates relief in you, every single exercise. And you have a really robust workbook that goes with the book, too. The reason I brought it up, I didn't feel your tone was saying that I should do all that. It's more that I can never quite seem to reconcile. It just shined a light on the micro guilt I carry around, if that makes sense. So I knew you weren't saying should, but I also know that, gosh, I'm like, friends will say we should catch up, but meanwhile, I haven't caught up with grandma, you know, or my mom or my dad, like people in the inner, inner, inner circle. And then I feel so bad as the concentric rings of my broader network kinda give less and less and less love.

I feel that I'm so aware of that because I'm so aware what people's lives are like that. For example, even when you and I were talking just now about when to catch up or when we've talked about it before, I'm always so acutely aware that people are just so stretched already. And I never wanna be that kind of a person that makes people feel like they have to spend time with me even though I'm there, you know, you know, 30th priority. And what I would say in terms of how we living in this society where we're all so stretched already and also our social circles are expanded in such an artificial way because of our online lives and just all of the ways that we have to interact with people that is so far beyond normal human capacity throughout history that accepting that and acknowledging it and also having a process by which you're really aware of your core values and what, what are the most life giving activities that you can reasonably include in your life and where all of that fits and understanding and accepting and honoring your limitations and really on a deep level accepting that, I think that will help the guilt let go because we just cannot spend time with all of the people that we enjoy in this world. And it's just a fact. We're humans, we have limitations. That's the way it is.

How do you reconcile that? Because then now, okay, this is part of the guilt spiral. I just interviewed a woman named Leah Garvin. She calls it a guilt spiral. Now I feel bad that you feel bad that we're even talking about a phone call and you're thinking, oh, I have friends say that I know Jenny doesn't like texting or I'm so sorry to email you. I know you hate email. And I'm like, God, now I'm this grumpy, cranky curmudgeon. People feel bad getting in touch with me. I'm going to lose all my friends.

So isn't that interesting?

How do you handle communicating to your network?

Yeah.

Cause it kind of when I get sensitive when people will say, I know you're so busy or like, I don't use the B word anymore. I try not to use the B word because it's a full life, you know, you've read Free Time. My goal isn't running around like a chicken with my head cut off.

Yes, totally.

It's about ease and peace and spaciousness. But then, I don't know. Do you, Susan, like, I'm actually wondering, with your extended network of people, maybe you have more people who want time with you than your introverted self.

Oh, yeah, all the time.

So how do you communicate? What's your, like, process of working through feeling like you should?

Probably the foundation of it is being really aware of how I'm doing, like mentally and physically. I have a history of mental health problems. In the past. I had depression, anxiety and some trauma related symptoms. And I don't have any active mental health diagnosis at this time. But I still have vulnerability. And as I was sharing with you before we started the recording, it has been just a spectacularly challenging season right now. And so I really prioritize that. Like, I talk in the book about having like your top four priorities for this season in life and knowing what they are in order and as a discipline, whenever there's something that wants to come into your life and take time to have that habit of first checking in with your priorities, one of which for me is mental health and physical health. That's the absolute top priority. And seeing how I'm doing. And if I am not doing well, then I start to even cut things. Like last weekend I was supposed to go for a walk with a friend I hadn't seen in a while. But I was just so exhausted because of the prior week and a bunch of things that had happened that I reached out to her and I said, I'm so sorry, I am spectacularly tired. These are some things that went on. I just think I really need to just stay in and rest this weekend. And she totally understood. And what was really neat is that I didn't feel pressure to reschedule something. She just totally understood. We sent some texts back and forth, so we felt like we caught up on some important things. And then she texted me this week and I felt like I had the freedom and the space to make plans with her for this coming weekend. It felt really good. And now I really had the energy and I'll look forward to being with her. And it was fine. It was totally fine. And I'm also modeling what I teach in the world because so much of the work that I do with people is around boundaries and giving yourself permission and even just listening to you right now with your micro guilt, I was so longing. It was like, just give me half an hour with you. We will talk this through. We'll Change some of the narratives. We will ask some questions and shift that. Because I know that the way, for example, how you were describing how people might see you in some of the language that they're using, and I know how I see you. And so I think there's a lot more lightness in that whole exchange and that people are giving you a lot more room and honoring you more than perhaps you're feeling in your micro guild.

Okay, well, thank you. I really appreciate that. You can tell that to my 145 unread text messages.

Aww.

I have people look at my phone and they go, I would throw up if I saw 145 unread. They're like, how do you live with yourself?

Oh, you learn too. You should see how many emails I have.

I know. You know, on the iPhone, it's like this red circle and the number just goes higher and higher. And I swear, I'm just not genetically biologically like you described how we're not used to having this far reach in terms of social. But even text messaging as a form of communication as a technology is so outside of my natural.

Oh, totally. And I shift people off of it, like I do. I try to shift people off and keep texting to the inner circle primarily for that reason. And also with emails a long time ago, I decided I just cannot answer all of them. I'm not even gonna try. And so just letting go of some of that stuff and then if you can, finding ways to shift people off of that means of communication so that the number isn't just sitting there staring at you all the time or just even if you're not gonna be able to answer and you don't need to just opening them so that you're not seeing the number anymore.

No, that's what I need to do. I know that a good exercise would be going through them all somehow and just at least marking them red. But then the thought of that. So I clearly do need time with you because the thought of that gives me so much anxiety of how many people I'll see that I wish I didn't leave them hanging. And then, oh, my gosh, it's like a count of probably a hundred people that I wish I had the energy because these are not people that I don't like or don't want to be friends with.

Totally.

The reason anything causes agenda is because I genuinely like them.

Yeah.

Now this is really a therapy session.

Well, I know that some of the people that I really admire in terms of very, very busy people and you are one of them. But when I see how they do things, for example, they'll answer an email, but it will be three words, right? So there may be some kind of strategy that you could start employing where you're just answering those people really briefly right away in a way that satisfies that rather than putting the pressure on yourself that you have to do some long response. Because that happens to me a lot where I will delay responding to somebody because I feel like I should respond to them quote properly and then they all just pile up and then I end up forgetting and it just kind of a disaster. So sometimes having a system where you're just going to deal with them quickly right away and lower your standards on your reply quality.

We'll be right back just after this.

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Well, the right away piece is what gets me because if anyone listens to this they're really gonna stop reaching out to me. But the right of way is what gets me because I'm very clear about not wanting to do it right away. But you're making a great point which is at least once a day or that's once a week I could do a swee and like quickly get them.

Done and have your times when you do that because I have that situation with text and I live on the 36th floor and I have a dog that I have to take out five, six times a day and there's actually cell reception in the elevator and so in the elevator is when I answer texts. So it's found time and it doesn't cut into my work, it's not distracting. So I find times like that, that, that's when I catch up on that stuff. And for that reason, I pretty much. I have like zero inbox in my text messages every day.

That's awesome. That is such a good idea. I started doing my duolingo. I'm learning Arabic on the subway and it's crazy. And it's cool because now I get on the subway and my hands just go toward duolingo because I've done it so many times. I love how you describe it as found time.

Yeah.

I could say the way to my destination is Arabic studies and the way home is text replies.

Perfect. Yeah, yeah. And actually then it gives me something interesting to do while I'm in the elevator. Right. So it's actually enjoyable. It doesn't at all feel heavy. There's no heaviness to it.

Speaking of lightness, one of the most hopeful things that I read in the book was where you share about the relaxation response, but specifically that even just 10 to 20 minutes of mindful R&R activities can have a 24 hour, positive, lasting impact. Can you share more about that?

Yes. I just get so excited about research in the field of mind body medicine. I've had the opportunity a number of times now to take courses at the Benson Henry Institute of Mind Body Medicine at Harvard Medical School and got to listen to the legendary Herbert Benson lecture on multiple occasions. The world actually lost him this year in February, which was really, really sad. But he left behind just this incredible legacy of research. So he's the Harvard cardiologist who discovered in the 1970s that our bodies have this wired in relaxation response is what he called it. He actually called it that. I just actually learned this in a course I took from the institute last week that he called it that because he wanted to neutralize it. He wanted to take a lot of the spiritual and other cultural associations with these kinds of practices away and focus on the science and also make it feel just really neutral and accessible for people, which I love. And he discovered that you could induce the relaxation response in your body as a counter response or antidote to the fight or flight stress response that so many of us are running when we're stressed out chronically. And he found that when you do an activity that stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system. And that can be just focusing on your breathing, focusing on some kind of phrase or thought, or meditating on compassion, forgiveness, lots of mindfulness practices, yoga, tai chi, even running. If you're focusing on the cadence of your feet as they're hitting the Ground a lot of different ways to induce this kind of response in your body and you have physiological changes that occur. Your heart rate slows, stress hormone production decreases, muscle tension decreases, breathing deepens and slows, blood pressure drops. There are just such wonderful positive physiological changes that occur that are measurable when you are doing these kinds of activities. And Dr. Benson found that 10 to 20 minutes, and I've even heard him say eight was enough, that just doing this at some point in your day, you will have an impact on your physiology, countering the stress response for up to 24 hours after you do that. Well, the researchers affiliated with the Benson Henry Institute have also found that there are even DNA changes that occur to metabolism, stress pathways, even the way that our cells, our DNA age. It's so exciting. It's something we can control.

I love hearing about the eight minutes research and even seeing a positive result from that. I'm curious, what have been some of your go tos recently that are in that 8 to 20 minute range?

Oh, yes. Oh, I do it on a daily basis. Every morning I have this app that I listen to called Lectio365. It's a free app. It's Lectio Divina. It's a kind of contemplative spiritual practice. And they have a new one every morning. They have an evening one too. And so I do that every morning. And so it's contemplative. There's usually a theme of some kind and there's also beautiful quiet music playing. And I will breathe very deeply, focus on my breathing while I also listen to and contemplate the spiritual aspects of it. It's so beautiful and refreshing and it falls into that category also. I will do things like I have a favorite yoga teacher on YouTube that I follow and I have some favorite shorter yoga practices that she has online. And so I will often just do 10 minutes of that. I do a lot of deep breathing typically anyway, or sometimes I'll even go for a walk. There's a golf course nearby and so I'll walk and I'll be in nature and I'll actively just focus on being really present as I'm walking and taking in the nature. That's another way that we can help to do that for ourselves as well. Those are the quick hits that I go to most often.

Yeah. Giving myself permission to do a 20 minute yoga or a 30 minute yoga or even sometimes a 15 minute stretch. It's like there's a little voice in my head that goes, well, this isn't Cardio or you're not building any muscles. And then I just remind myself, who cares? Like this is what I can do today. And not just can do this is what my body is telling me it would love for me to do today.

Oh yeah. And what really helps me with that, because I'm a high achiever, an overachiever, I'm harder on myself than I anyone else is, as are many people. And I think you can probably relate. And so part of why I love the research that's coming out of this field so much is because it ascribes such profound value to these simple things. Like I can't remember exactly what the outcome was. But when I took last year a course from the Benson Henry Institute, there was a researcher who said they had this study they did where they took animals and they just stretched them like they stretched their little backs or their little legs. And they actually the animals exhibited enhanced sense of well being from the stretching. And I'm not saying that I necessarily advocate for animal research is not what I'm saying here, but it was more. Those were some foundational studies that were done that show the impact of something as simple as stretching on even neuroscience and our well being and mental health. And the benefits are so much greater than just the simple ones in the moment. And that's actually really why I do these practices. Because I want the mental health. I want also the enhanced focus, the enhanced creative problem solving, like all the things that come from that, that have so much more to do with enhancing my life than just the relaxation part.

Thank you for sharing that. I love thinking about animals stretching.

They were the cutest pictures. Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Because the animals loved it and they found, I can't remember what markers they measured, but that they really showed that it really helped them and it helps us.

Going back to the burnout topic for a moment, I think a lot about the relationship to big goals, big projects. And then what sometimes seems almost inevitable is the post project burnout or crash on the other side. And my dad calls it a bliss crash because it's partly the psychospiritual come down of having worked on something so deep and meaningful. But for example, you know, you're on the other side of a book launch and this is your second big book launch. I've now done three and each time I try to get better at it. I try to modulate my energy more, I try to create a more spacious calendar, do less of the draining activities. And yet sometimes burnout is still right there knocking on the door. So do you think that it's inherent? Two, when we put out a really big effort about something we really care about at work, is it just a natural part of the cycle and we need to just prepare for it and acknowledge it, allow it, and then move through it? Or is there truly a way to sidestep that burnout phase?

Well, the first question that comes to mind is whether it's actually burnout. I would imagine that probably in a lot of cases it's more of a physiological or mental, physical kind of crash, for example, from withdrawal of stress hormones like adrenaline, for example, that people run on. And then when it's not so much that it's a threat, but when the intense focus or the thing that's consuming your attention and causing you to be so motivated and so driven, that when that comes away and those stress hormones that have been propping us up go away and just all the effort and everything that we have, like a physiological crash where we then feel the after effects of how hard we've been pushing and then process all the emotional stuff around it too, that we've often been putting off. So I think that's a big part of it. Whereas burnout, it has the three components, right? The emotional and physical exhaustion, which one certainly feels at the end of a push like that, but then also negativity and cynicism, like that real personality change with lots of resentment, and then also dramatically decreased productivity and efficacy, and then also doubting even you're fit for the role. Like burnout has a certain flavor to it that's really negative related to work. Like, after I finish my book lunch, I'm not overwhelmed with feelings of negativity around it. I would not say that I am burned out. I am more just exhausted from the effort. And I do think there are ways that we can navigate something like that. Like focusing on getting as much quality sleep as we can, not stopping working out, eating well, even if it has to be takeout, having time with those key people in small doses. Like right before my book came out, it was my birthday and my family, they had offered, there was an opportunity to gather on the other side of the country. And I actually flew and did that before my book launch because I knew just those people are so energizing to me. They're my favorite people in the whole world. And so I felt like that was the right priority for me also, because I know just the impact that socializing with people that we love so much has on our well being. So I made intentional choices like that throughout the book launch, ramping up period to then minimize the fallout at the end. But I don't think it's necessarily burnout.

We'll be right back just after this.

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As we look ahead, let's say to the year ahead. You talked about the shadow pandemic and the fact that so much of our work shifted to virtual.

Yeah.

It's tricky, right? Of course, it's a privilege to be able to do our work virtually at all for those of us who can. And there's some aspects that feel great. There's no commute. We can wear whatever we want below the laptops and. And yet virtual can feel so tiring on the eyes, especially video, which, you know, we turned it off to record this, as I do. What do you think in the year ahead? Like, does the format of our work have anything to do with burnout, or is it more as you described? It has to be all three of those things that are really creating a mismatch, because sometimes for me, the burnout comes not from the project itself. Like the book launch. I'll feel really meaningful and like you said, like, I worked hard, but then I'll notice a couple weeks later or a month later I am resenting everything. And I'm like, you know, I'll just go to much more cynical, darker places. And that's kind of how I know I'm burnt out. Even if it's not from the meaningful project itself.

Yeah, yeah. It can be the accumulation of things. And when I hear people talking about those things, too, I always want to dig deeper. We won't. But since I have worked in medical psychotherapy, I did that for a year during the pandemic, and I have worked with patients for so long, so many coaching clients, experiencing challenges as well, that I'm always curious about really getting to the bottom of it. And I would say that, and I know I'm not answering your initial question, which I will get to, but I'd say that if anybody is experiencing those symptoms, I always say to people, I'm just sharing this for information purposes. Do not diagnose yourself with burnout. Like, if you're ever experiencing those feelings, like increased resentment or lots of negativity, or you're feeling really exhausted, the first place usually to start would be to talk to your doctor if it's significant enough that it's really impacting you or bothering you. And then to figure out, is this actually burnout? Is it maybe depression? Do I maybe actually have an abnormality with my thyroid? Or like, there are different things. And I think when we notice a shift in ourselves that we're not feeling well, it is so helpful even just to have a coach or a mentor or a counselor that you go to to help you to sort through things. Because we know from the research that the people who respond to difficult times or difficult emotions in that way, where they get support and process it that way, that those are actually the most resilient people on this earth. So that's a really good way to respond to those kinds of experiences versus just thinking, oh, this must be burnout from xyz. And with respect to the shift in the way that we do our work, it's very well established, for example, that working in a virtual context does have inherent risk factors that make people more vulnerable to burnout. Like, for example, not having the really well demarcated work life boundaries that people do when they're going into an office where you have reminders of your work in your home. Also, it's very easy to just get into a situation where you're working round the clock. People are more sedentary. Typically you don't have a commute. You could easily just sit for 14 hours straight. And also, as you say, the screens and all the videos, there are a lot of risk factors. And so I had been asked throughout the pandemic to come into organizations and to talk to people about what are the things that you can do in a working from home situation to decrease your vulnerability to burnout that is inherent in that way of working.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. It reminds me, Jordan Harbinger, he's a fellow podcaster and friend. He says, dig the well before you get thirsty. He talks about networking, but it strikes me that having a cadre of medical or counseling team is probably a good idea. Because when I'm, well, whether it's official burnout or not, big uppercase b or lowercase B, that's the last time I feel resourceful to, like, navigate the New York City medical system and find the right doctor. And doctors can be so condescending. I know you're trained as one, but I have to say, whenever I hear the advice like, you know, this is not medical advice. Consult with your medical professional. At least my experience here in New York, I have yet to find a doctor that is not just in a hurry and condescending and it drives me nuts. And then I just feel that, okay, at least I got it over with. I don't have to deal with finding. And my insurance, they're always changing and merging with each other. And so that even when I find an okay one, this is another side rant. But it does not feel that easy to find someone I resonate with.

Yeah, it's true. It's true. Very much so. And I'm lucky. I do have a physician. It took me a while to find her. It was actually a patient of mine. I was doctorless.

Oh, wow.

It was actually a patient of mine who said, hey, there's this new clinic that's open. They're taking patients. And so I literally, like, after that patient, I ran and I signed up for an appointment. And she's really great. And I see my doctor. Well, I don't even see her. We just actually talk by phone a lot of the time. And that is something that has shifted in medical care and counseling care, which is really great for busy people, is that you can very, very often get care virtually now. And so some of the challenges that I've had in the last year, there's sometimes short visits with my doctor where I talk to her about things. But she has been for me, a really a great source of support. And I certainly tried to be that. I practiced medicine for 20 years in a clinic situation where people could just walk in. And I really tried to support as well as I could. And your point is a good one, where it is a good idea. And Michael Unger, who's one of the top resilience experts in the world, who I quote a lot in the book, he talks about that, the importance of having those networks set up. Like I have. I have a couple of them that I really, really like. So they are go tos for me and I can usually see one of them in a few days if I send them an email. And it's virtual so I don't have to Go anywhere. And I've got my doctor. And the doctor doesn't necessarily have to solve all the problems. But I have a story that I've been telling lately where a friend of mine was really sure that she was burned out because she was exhibiting what seemed to be most of the symptoms, it seemed. And she went and saw Dr. Because she was so tired. And I don't know that it was necessarily a really warm, cozy meeting with the doctor, but the doctor did their job, which was to do some blood tests. And then she had iron deficiency anemia, which was actually causing her exhaustion. And so when she got that treated, she felt much, much better. And no amount of counseling would have fixed that. So that's why I include the medical piece, because often maybe somebody is significantly depressed or significantly anxious or has some kind of biochemical abnormalities. So that's why I always mention that piece, because it actually would be unethical for me to teach this information without having that caveat in there.

Yes. And isn't that illuminating too, when I've had those discoveries too? With a thyroid problem, hyperthyroid, thank goodness it manifested physically because my grandma, she said, your eyes are bulging. And at first I was like, gee, thanks, Grandma. But it turned out she was right, that it turned out to be Graves disease and I needed to take a thyroid medication. I'm off that medication now. But that would have been an example where even if there was a mind body element, because I certainly did have work stress and I didn't have any of the mindfulness practices, there was still a physical abnormality, like you said, with the blood work that needed to be addressed. So thank you for reminding us.

I find I end up doing that a lot with people because so many people, and I'm up in Canada, which has a lot of its own healthcare system challenges, and so many people are frustrated with their experiences in trying to access healthcare. And so what happens is I will say to them, oh, you know, you should really see your doctor, or maybe you should go to the emergency room with that. And I'm almost always met with the resistance that, no, the last time I tried that, or I waited 10 hours. And I find that so much of what I do is actually coaching people to get to the point where they can get past their prior experiences and get the help that they need. And very typically, people will come back to me after and say, thank you for helping me get past my frustrations and my negative anticipation because I needed help and I ended up getting it. So that's ultimately what I want for people is to get the help that they need. And I'm so sorry that it is so challenging.

Oh, well, thank you for being an advocate for that, of reminding us to forget the bad experiences and keep looking for the good.

Last question before we wrap up. There's all this research on resilience and even positive psychology and mind body medicine. What are you hoping that your book, that this book will add to the conversation?

I think one aspect that it brings that we don't actually hear a lot. Well, I'm thinking of the resilience research. Like when books that are written on resilience, they don't typically have the medical piece in it in terms of like the neuroscience research, for example, and also the research that we're learning about our DNA and how the choices that we make that enhance our resilience can actually start to even repair the damage that has happened to our minds and bodies from stressful lives or from trauma. So that science piece that I pair with the resilience piece, I think that tends to be unusual. The people that typically write books about resilience are psychologists or psychiatrists. They're usually people who are primarily focused in the counseling realm. Because I have experience as a medical doctor, just a generalist treating the population. I also have a degree from before that in dietetics and a huge passion for preventative medicine and lifestyle medicine, as they call it, also at Harvard, the Institute of Lifestyle Medicine, that I've taken courses at. And then I also bring the coaching piece because I've spent so much of my career as well figuring out how can I actually get people to do the things that they know they really want to do to make the changes that they want to make in their lives. Because so many of us know what we want to do or what we want to stop doing, but really struggle with that. So there's the coaching piece as well, and then my own experiences as well. And that I've had some significant challenges, that even though I'm a public figure, I really love sharing them, which apparently is somewhat unusual as well. So all of those pieces brought together, I feel there's kind of a comprehensive approach that can really help people. Hopefully, at least I have seen it in the coaching work that I do in the speaking, where people have told me, even organizations have come back to me and said, there's something about the way that you equip people with practical tools, but then also the knowledge that actually gets them to be able to make change. Like I've had leaders of HR at organizations tell Me that they can't believe how many people have come back to them after saying, this really changed my life. So there seems to be something about all of it together that really makes a difference for people. And so I think, and I hope that that's what sets it apart.

Such a beautiful blend in your Venn diagram of what you bring. And we didn't even talk about the flamenco dancing.

Oh, right, that too.

Which is always what used to make me so happy knowing you. I'm like, this is my flamenco dancing medical doctor, keynote speaker. You know, extraordinaire. Like, you're such a beautiful example of bringing your whole self. And then look at that feedback you just described that people say, wow, for some reason, I could hear it from you. Well, that's because you're bringing your whole self. You're bringing the vulnerability, the personal experience, the coaching, the medical practice. It is very unique.

Yeah, I think people are surprised sometimes. It's like the flamenco dancing is a surprise from a doctor. And I know that people are often surprised when I share, for example, my story of depression and anxiety and even suicidal ideation and things like that, that it's not necessarily what they're expecting. They're expecting a doctor to be much more buttoned up. And so I think there's that element of surprise too.

Well, yeah, like we were talking about all the doctors that are themselves overworked and probably burnt out, not trying to make them wrong. It's just a really wild industry with a lot of probably outdated work habits.

Oh, terrible. Yes. It's working on changing. There are some shifts happening, so we're in exciting times everywhere in terms of the shifts in the workplace.

If you could leave listeners with one small experiment to try as they go about their lives after listening, what would it be?

I would say leverage your parasympathetic nervous system and all the benefits in that to counteract the stress response. If there's one thing that you do as you're going through your day, anytime you feel stressed or worried or anxious, just take a few deep breaths. It's so simple. But then pay attention to how you feel after and use that as a tool. And it enhances so many things from your brain performance. Your ability to focus and concentrate, decreases feelings of anxiety, enhances feelings of well being, lowers blood pressure, lowers muscle tension. It just goes on and on. So that's something that you can incorporate very, very easily.

So many good things. And make sure to get your copy of the Resilient Life and the workbook you'll get instructions for the workbook inside the book itself. Susan, is there anywhere else you would like to send people to keep in touch?

Oh, if they're interested in learning more about the book and where to get it, you can just go to theresiliantlifebook.com and then my own website is thriveworklive.com Beautiful.

Thank you so much Susan. Thank you for being here. Thank you Jenny and everything over this last gosh, near 15 years of friendship. I'm so thankful for you.

I look forward to the next 15.

Me too. Forever. Into infinity and beyond forever.

I love it. Big thanks everybody for listening.

Thanks so much. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and you connect with me on Twitter at Jenny Blake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.