304: Through the Crux—Pivoting from Acting to Entrepreneurship with Ryan Devlin

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The more you get better at change, the more you experience Pivots, the more comfortable you become with it.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of the only Move that Matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast. If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello. Hello, Pivoters. You are in for a treat today. My guest is Ryan Devlin. Ryan is a social entrepreneur, a rock climbing enthusiast, and an actor known for roles on shows like Brothers and Sisters, Veronica Mars, Cougar Town, Jane the Virgin, and Grey's Anatomy. Maybe you've seen one or two of them. He hosts the Struggle Climbing podcast where climbers share their struggles and breakthroughs in nutrition training, tactics and the mental game. And he's a co founder of this Saves Lives, a company dedicated to feeding children and helping them thrive. It is once in a rare blue moon that I say yes to an inbound kind of request or saying, hey, do you want to have my friend Ryan on the show? In this case, when I saw that Ryan had founded this Saves Lives, which was formerly this bar Saves Lives, my test whether I should have Ryan on the show or not was that I ordered his bars and I can say they are delicious. And as soon as I bit into the first one, I replied to Emily, who reached out and I said, yes, let's schedule this interview. So with that, Ryan, welcome to the show.

I'm so happy we passed the taste test. Thank you. I'm really thrilled to be here, Jenny.

Yeah, taste in every sense of the word. You know, it's like I knew you had your acting cred, but I thought, I don't know if we should have the interview. Like, what if the bars are terrible?

They're really good. I started eating them for dessert.

That's the most important thing is, you know, especially, I'm sure we'll dive into all of this, but, you know, you could have A great idea for a social impact business that's got a great mission. Ours is saving lives. So, like, it's hard to beat saving lives. But, you know, at the end of the day, if it doesn't taste good, people aren't going to want to buy it again and again. And so how do you serve your mission if you don't get people buying it again and again? So we knew the bars had to taste good first and foremost. And I'm really happy to hear that you like them. Thank you for supporting and purchasing them.

Right. This is not even a paid ad. I just had to authentically share that the bars are delicious. I love what you said. You said it on a different interview that I was listening to that you co founded it with. There's four of you, some are a list celebs. And you were like, with all the access in Hollywood, in the world, that's still not going to create a successful company if after people buy a box and try it, they don't want to buy it again. I thought that was such an interesting point because people always think that getting a celebrity to endorse something is going to be the way and the holy grail, Right?

And, you know, I can't even take credit for even that kind of realization. I essentially stole that from Paul Newman, who was a huge inspiration when we started this Saves Lives. As you said, it was originally this bar saves Lives and has since become this Saves Lives because we've expanded beyond bars. And for listeners who don't know about it, I can give like a little 22nd here, which is. It's a give back food company. So we sell really delicious bars, but also now we have granola and oatmeal and crispy treats. And for every product sold, we give life saving nutrition to children in need around the world through various nonprofit partners. The model was very simple and Newman's Own was a huge inspiration for me at the time. When I came up with the idea for this Saves Lives, I was living in Westport, Connecticut, which is where Paul and Joanne lived for almost their entire lives. And Newman's Own was just such an inspiration with regard to the impact that they've had on children's lives. I did a lot of volunteer work with the Hole in the Wall Gang camps, which Paul Newman founded, of course. And part of the proceeds of Newman's Own goes to. And anyway, he wrote this book called Shameless Exploitation In Pursuit of the Common Good and essentially saying that he was willing to exploit himself in order to help other people and One of his big takeaways was, look, everybody's gonna buy salad dressing once because my face is on it. But they'll only buy it a second time if it's something that they truly love, that they truly enjoy, that they want to eat. And so we took a note from blue eyed Paul Newman there. And when we started this Saves Lives, our focus was first and foremost on the quality of the food. You know, non GMO and really delicious. High quality, premium ingredients and fantastic flavors. And so the bars themselves are extra yummy. That serves the mission, because the more people want to eat our bars or toss them in their gym bags or pack them in their lunches, the more nutrition will go to kids in need around the world. So it's a virtuous cycle, I guess.

You founded the company with Kristen Bell, Todd Grinnell, and Ravi Patel, so there's four of you. And I gotta think that having four co founders would be challenging. I know. I think a little over nine years to almost a decade now of this Saves Lives. How has it been with four co founders? Cause I could just imagine that gets really tricky. And it's not even an odd number. So you could vote 2 to. It's an even number in a lot of you.

How has that been sometimes quite literally, as well as metaphorically, too many cooks in the kitchen. When, like in the early days when we were coming up with recipes actually, like in Kristen's kitchen, sometimes we would align and be like, yes, dark chocolate and peanut butter. That is a home run. And it is a home run. Fortunately, it's our number one seller. But sometimes there isn't an alignment where maybe two of us really want to do, like a matcha bar, and two are like, no, Matcha's gross. And then sometimes kind of more metaphorically, with regard to just how did we want to build the company, what was the direction? What's the voice, the tone? What are our giving partners? All of the things that go into starting a business. I've always found for me that I prefer to have at least one other person to work with in those early days of, like, startup life, aside from kind of this podcast now that I'm doing. But even still, I worked with friends and Emily, you mentioned at the beginning there, who's a podcast coach. It's always been easier for me to have people to push and pull and question assumptions and bring fresh perspectives and just kind of in those long, wacky hours where everybody's punch drunk, there's that camaraderie. It's just maybe a Personality type, maybe. You certainly know more about this than I do, Jenny. But I think I'm a more effective entrepreneur when I have at least one. But oftentimes times more people to launch and grow an idea with. And so with Todd, Ravi, Kristen, and myself, we've all worn different hats in the business. We all bring our perspectives. We all have kind of our own areas of expertise. So in some regard, we're kind of in our own lanes. But we cross lanes enough where there's, like, good collaborative collisions without them being, I guess, kind of collisions that are more like roadblocks or that hinder the progress of the company. So it's worked out really well, fortunately.

Do you divide and conquer roles so that you have really clear scope? And then second piece is in nine years. Their involvement must come and go in waves a little bit like, depending what else they have going on in their life. Does it ever come up where someone feels like, oh, I'm doing more work and this person isn't doing any. That kind of weird, dynamic stuff?

Yeah, it's definitely ebbed and waned. In the early days, it was all hands on deck. And when we were just launching this thing, we were doing everything. I mean, literally making prototype bars in our kitchens out there, pounding pavement, and working our relationships to raise startup capital. I was chief sales officer in the early days, and Todd was our operations guy, you know, running manufacturing. We didn't know anything about any of this stuff. Kristen, who's definitely the a list of the team in terms of her performing career. She and I met on a TV show a long time ago called Veronica Mars, where I played the bad guy and she played the good guy, and we became good friends, and she was quite clear with where she would be most impactful. And that, of course, was getting the word out about the company helping us in a very high level, like, directionally, like, where should we take this? What customers should we reach out to? You know, like, Whole Foods was an early partner and Starbucks. And so she and I flew up to Seattle and met with Starbucks. And, like, her time isn't well spent trying to figure out how to procure pistachios at the cheapest price. Early on, that was Todd's job. And fortunately, pretty quickly after we got going, we found people that could do it much better than all of us, including sales and all that. So we wore every hat in the beginning. But then after we proved the concept and the company launched and we gained some traction in the market, we were fortunately able to bring on people who were far More qualified and specialized in those various roles so that we could then be more impactful with our time as founders and visionaries and working high level relationships and trying to create unique opportunities that only we could do. So Starbucks, I mentioned Google was an early partner. Whole Foods, these were accounts that we could go after through kind of our unique connections and our positions within Hollywood and that kind of thing. Whereas others that were educated and experienced with regards to manufacturing and fulfillment and promotional planning and that kind of thing, you know, we were able to hire them because we were starting to make money as a business. And that's kind of, you know, to bring us current now we sit on the board, we're very involved again directionally with the vision of the company. New products, new collaborations and partnerships where our mission is going to take us with regards to our fighting severe malnutrition. And we're less in the weeds now, although I kind of dip down into the weeds every once in a while because it's hard for me to fully extricate myself from it.

And does that mean that there's a CEO in place, someone's running the company that isn't the four of you?

Indeed, yeah.

Yeah.

Our CEO, Jensen Thome is just fantastic. Very experienced, really knows operations well. And I ran the company as CEO for a couple of years. So I stepped away from acting for two years almost entirely and was hired by the company and ran it as CEO. And my background was in business. I studied business at Michigan State and have always been entrepreneurial. And so I think that I did a good job as CEO, but I think I didn't do a great job. There were definitely things that I excelled at and that was sales side and opening up new accounts, Whole Foods, Target, Starbucks, Google and some of the big kind of corporate campuses that we're on. But I wasn't particularly effective, I don't think, in building the right team in handling operations in the right way, focusing on margins. You know, I did the sexy stuff really well and I think I did maybe the not so sexy stuff, not as well. So unfortunately we got to the point where then we essentially outgrew me as CEO. I was happy to bring in somebody else and happy to reclaim some of my personal life as I was working pretty insane hours during that time. And now, yeah, I sit on the board. We sit on the board, we help where we're going to be most impactful and we stay the heck out of the way where, you know, where appropriate.

You mentioned that you've always been entrepreneurial and I wanted to ask you about that. So it's interesting hearing you studied business at Michigan State and then at some point got the bug for acting from the friends I have who are actors. It just seems excruciatingly difficult to pursue as a career choice because you're going on all these auditions, you can barely hold down a job in order to go to audition at the drop of a hat, you're getting rejected constantly if you hear any feedback at all. And so I just think it's wild when people have such a bug, such a dream, such a commitment to go through that as part of their career path. I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit about that, like having this business major, but then somehow getting out to Hollywood, somehow landing these roles. And then it's also fun seeing how you've evolved since where you're now much more in the driver's seat with this saves lives with your podcast, your creative pursuits where you're the boss again.

I've always not only enjoyed being the boss, but it's almost the only thing I can tolerate. I've had a really hard time just kind of working and reporting and like early on at my restaurant jobs when I was out in LA trying to make it as an actor, I was always bringing ideas to the general manager, being like, I think we could do this better. Why don't we do this for Valentine's Day? And some people will take that. I think good, open minded leaders will take input from wherever it comes from. But oftentimes people didn't want to hear my crazy ideas. And so, yeah, I mean, that goes back to me being in second grade, starting my own sticker company and selling stickers to kids in class and then getting in trouble from the teachers that I was running a business out of the school. And you know, I've just always had this kind of mindset that I could get out there and do it on my own. And fortunately the support and the belief to do that from my parents first and foremost, but then other people in my life as I grew up and moved out to Hollywood and that I think it's important for people to be told that they can, you know, you can kind of beat your own path and chart your own course and it's not going to always work. And so I think acting has prepared me well for entrepreneurship because you do get a lot of doors slammed in your face as an actor, but also as an entrepreneur and you can develop some really good tools in either of those scenarios that cross over. And so for acting I had always acted, always loved it. I did productions all through elementary school, middle school, high school, into college. I was did drama productions and in the Filmmakers Club. I've always had like a really practical side as well. And I've loved business. So I put my focus and my studies in business and I put my kind of passions and my hobbies into filmmaking, writing and the performing arts. And some people aren't wired that way. I think people who really love performing, people who are really into the arts, oftentimes kind of go pot committed and just say, like, this is my life, I'm going all in. I've always had this chimera of, I don't know, practicality and like artistic, I don't know, ambition, I guess that almost one might think are in conflict. But I found a harmony somehow in that. And so when I graduated school, I turned down a really good job offer and said, no, I want to give it a shot out in Hollywood. And so I gave myself a couple years and like packed up my car and drove out and got a bartending job. And it's kind of like the old trope.

That's how I felt moving to New York. It's like so packed my things, packed a suitcase, got to New York, was like, I'll give myself six months to make it. So I love it. You went the other direction.

Wasn't this after, like you had established yourself pretty well, worked with Google?

That's true. Wasn't my right first thing out of school. Okay, you're okay, fine, but it's still a leave.

I don't mean to.

No, yours is really wild. Like especially being from the Midwest and just saying, I'm gonna drive out to Hollywood and see what happens. Did you know anyone? Did you have any connections in Hollywood?

Fortunately, my sister. Yeah, my sister who, you know, was also from Michigan. She studied film at University of Michigan and was living out in LA working for a production company. And she was on the producing and writing side of things. And so fortunately I'd had her there. I also had done my internship with a restaurant company out in LA the year prior. So I had made some friends there and established, so it wasn't completely foreign. And it was also, like, to be perfectly candid, a very privileged decision to be able to make. I had earned money during my school years, tending bar and socketed away. My parents gave me a little bit of money. My mom gave me her old car. It was a risk that I was able to take. You know, I didn't have any health insurance. I Didn't have much money. I was pretty much hand to mouth for that first year and a half tending bar in Malibu and trying to rush out to auditions and get my break, quote unquote, and all of that. But those are some of my fondest memories, because that's when you're just running on the dream and there's no expectation. It's just the dream every day that's fueling you. And a lot of people go out to LA and just get sucked into acting classes and surf culture and then restaurant at night, and then they lose a decade and they say, oh, it didn't work. And for me, I was singularly laser focused on figuring out a way to make it work. And then, fortunately, it did. I mean, I ended up getting some gigs. I got representation, got a manager and an agent and started getting some small acting gigs and some hosting gigs. And that started to build to the point where I could quit the restaurant. And I have made a career as an actor for 10 years and then started writing and producing. And, you know, the snowball built, which was very cool. And I'm really grateful for that. And it's always been something that I was interested in, but never something that I had to do. Whereas I have friends who are like, I will be an actor whether it's in a community theater or a church basement theater or on the biggest show on television. And for me, I've always enjoyed acting. It's a great way to have fun and to make money. But it's never been the thing that I absolutely must do. I've always kind of. My wife jokes, like she says, every three years I start something new. And that's pretty true. If I look back on my timeline over the last 20 years, it's about every three years I kind of get an itch to do something new. And somebody will discover that trait in DNA at some point in time. But whatever that trait is, I've got it.

It's that same one making you unemployable. I have it too.

Exactly.

Yeah. That's what I call high net growth. In the book pivot.

That's right.

We are gonna hit pivot points more frequently than other people. And I used to beat myself up about it and think there was something wrong because I kept getting bored every few years. And I thought I was crazy. I just thought I was destined to be miserable in my career until I gave myself permission that, well, what if that's just my cadence? I get bored every few years. You know, I'm not saying it's always a good thing.

We'll be right back just after this.

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I love how you described the snowball building that you moved out there. Little things started to happen and you got representation. Was it always more or less a consistent snowball or was there a quote, big break moment that even entrepreneurs are always having the magical thinking that we'll get called up to Oprah's couch or some, you know, some big moment? Was there a quote, big break or was it always that at least the momentum snowball was moving in the right direction so you felt encouraged to just keep at it?

Yeah, I think it was more the latter and even sometimes a slowing of the rolling or, you know, little hills that came where the snowball kind of went backwards a little bit but then pushed through. I have friends who got big breaks where almost overnight they were now being recognized out in public and their lives changed financially as well as personally. That wasn't my course or hasn't been at least to this point. In Hollywood. It was much more of a little wins, little breaks, mini breaks kind of leading up to in aggregate looking back like, oh, that's a big break. Like to make a living as an actor for over a decade, to have that be my primary income driver, and to have lived a pretty good life as a result of it. Some years have been really big years and some years have been like almost $0 years. But again, to kind of average that out. I think it's more a big break kind of in the long lens than anything else. But I think maybe the biggest break, if you will, was just getting representation and then starting to go out on auditions because I knew that if I could just get in the room I would start landing work. I have been acting my whole life up to that point. I was incredibly dedicated. I think I a natural talent for it. But then I worked really hard to hone that talent. But the hardest thing for me at least, and I think for many in Hollywood, is to just get in the room. And there's so many people who are incredibly talented who don't get in the room. There's a lot of luck that goes into it. There's some mechanics that people can work through, whether it's personal connections or taking these different courses that'll maybe give you an opportunity to get in the room. But really the only way to actually get these auditions and get in front of of casting directors is to have a bonafide manager and agent. And I was tending bar and kind of that like classic Hollywood story where I was just like yucking it up at the bar and a woman who was sitting there with some friends was a manager and still is my manager and like took a shot on me. And so I started getting auditions. And if you don't book something pretty quickly, you're going to lose your luster. You know, like, you only have a short amount of time to prove that you can do what you think you can do. And fortunately it wasn't my first audition or my first even handful of auditions. But in that first few months, I started booking small jobs and I think that gave her confidence then to keep fighting for me. And then, yeah, the snowball just kind of built subtly from there. I did like little guest stars and little co stars and started hosting and then got bigger roles and then I was in demand and then there was kind of like competition to get me on different shows. And that's when you could kind of feel a momentum shift was when like the incoming calls start coming. And that's always a nice place to be. But you know, that went away too, and then came back and then went away and then came back. And so you can't get too comfortable in Hollywood.

Seriously, it feels so ephemeral sometimes. I mean, even in business. But I love how you describe that. Like you really just captured the phases where you're hustling, you're taking the small stuff, you're saying yes to a lot, and then all of a sudden something tips and you're the one in demand, you're the one having to say no. And that is always a very fortunate phase to be in. You mentioned some of your friends getting big breaks overnight. And a lot of people say like celebrities are just people. Of course, on some level we know this. And yet if you don't live in Hollywood, I think there's been all these Books coming out recently about status and just seeing even younger generations saying, I want to be an influencer when I grow up. And it just seems like such a tricky thing, kind of chasing fame and recognition. And you had a front row seat to it, at least for the decade that you were out there. And I'm just wondering, did you have to grapple with that for yourself of wanting certain things or accolades or levels of success and then having to remind yourself what it's really all for or what it's all about?

It's such a fascinating topic. And so many people, I think, fantasize about experiencing that. That kind of intoxicating celebrity aspect of whatever it may be. It could be you're a teacher, you're an entrepreneur, you're a musician, but just fantasizing about that award speech that you're giving or people kind of recognizing you. And I did experience it and still sometimes do. Even now living in Kentucky and choosing kind of my own path and playing by my own rules a little bit more now, I still get recognized every once in a while. For me, fortunately, I got it enough where it was a great boost to the ego, but not so much that it changed who I was, or at least I don't think so. I was very much a witness to friends who experienced it on a much higher level than I ever have. And I think what celebrity does is it can't help but have a real effect on the person. And the question isn't will they lose themself, but it's just how much will they lose themself and for how long. And then ultimately, how fully do they return to who they are? And a lot of that depends on the people that they have around them. So people who, like, completely blow up, they become stars and then they, like, implode where they've kind of drunk their own Kool Aid and completely changed as a human being. I don't fault them for it personally, because it's really hard to have that much praise and that many sycophants around you and those many people just telling you exactly what you want to hear. Like, it's almost impossible to ward that off or to have it not affect you. It's just that if you have good people around you, then you don't take it too seriously or you kind of drink the Kool Aid for a minute. But then those people bring you back to Earth. And Kristen's a great example. Kristen Bell is, you know, she's a pretty big. She wasn't always, you know, when she and I were on Veronica Mars. That was kind of her big break, was being the star of Veronica Mars. But she's always been super down to earth and grounded and she's just surrounded by great people and has always kind of actively turned down the kind of the machine that you could accept that comes with celebrity. And she's just stayed really true to herself. Whereas, you know, I've worked with other people on shows or films that I guess maybe just haven't been so fortunate and have been kind of taken down that slippery slope of celebrity. So I'm going on a little bit of a tangent here.

No, it's so interesting.

It's a hard thing until you kind of are in it and you experience it. But for me, I can say fortunately, like, it's awesome. It feels great to be out at the supermarket and have somebody be like, oh, hey, I loved you on Cougar Town, or great episode of Grey's Anatomy last night. That's cool. That feels really good. But it was never to the point where I lost my, like, kind of my anonymity. Where some people, you know, if they can't be out in public or they have to be in disguise or they have to be really careful with what they say or do at all times because there's people there photographing them, that sounds like a pretty raw deal. I don't know if I would like that.

Right.

So I do feel for the people who kind of experience that and don't handle it very well, because I think it'd be hard to handle for anybody.

Absolutely. And the way you described it, the slippery slope of the Hollywood machinery, like, that seems like such an apt description because I bet it happens in a way slowly and then also, like, so quickly that you barely notice it. And all of a sudden you have a squad of 10 people following you everywhere and an entourage and four assistants. And I could just see it, you know, not just with celebrity, but even sometimes business people, you see that they build themselves into this hugely complex operation or billionaires. I just love this article in the New Yorker on the haves and the have super yachts. It was about wealth and comparison to each other. And it was how the superyacht owners end up having a staff, a personal staff of like 200 plus people. And that's not necessarily the path to happiness. We think that having all this money or celebrity. The one thing I wanted to ask you, and then I want to ask about kind of transitioning or ramping down acting a little bit, but the other perk is access of course. So what was your most exciting moment or like your celeb sighting where you saw someone you really admired and you were got to be in the same room with them?

Oh, man. I mean, so many of them. I mean, for a stretch there I was a host for Entertainment Tonight. And so I was like on all the red carpets and at all the premieres and I hosted the red carpet for the American Music Awards and all this. And so I got to meet. I mean, it's like kind of impossible to count how many people that I just like looked up to or was pretty starstruck from it to the point where like then I just wasn't getting starstruck at all anymore, which was totally weird. But a couple, I guess, that stand out are Harrison Ford. So I did a show called Brothers and Sisters and Calista Flockart, who's for older listeners like myself and those who are a little bit older perhaps know her maybe most as Ally McBeal. But I mean she's just had like an incredible career on stage and on screen. And Calista, like I played her love interests. I was like, she was a professor and I was a student and it was like this kind of illicit thing. And anyway, it was supposed to be only a couple episodes and then just bringing me back and back and back because we just. Kalista and I hit it off and it was a good storyline. And so I was on the show for a long time. And this whole time, of course she's married to Harrison Ford, who's Harrison Ford. And my wife's favorite film is Indiana Jones. And so, you know, Klista and I would have these love scenes and I'd come home and she would kiss me and she'd be like, it's like I'm kissing Harrison Ford. And. And so it was very fun. And so I got to meet him through her. And also on that show, Sally Field. There are few actors who are as talented as Sally Field. And so to be able to get to work with her was a real treat. I mentioned Entertainment Tonight. There was a time where I got to spend a lot of time talking with Dustin Hoffman and another just one of like the all time greats as an actor. And I also got to spend some time with Al Gore. I hosted a show called 24 Hours of Climate Reality with former Vice President Gore and got to spend some time working with him and just hanging out with him. It was a 24 hour show about climate. We shot in Brooklyn and he was there the whole time. I was only there for a Chunk of it. I hosted like a chunk of it. But he's been a bit of a hero of mine as the climate and the environmental issues have been near and dear to my heart since I was in fifth grade. And so that's just like kind of a little touch on it. But you mentioned something there that I don't want to pivot off of yet. And that was kind of this notion of happiness and kind of the have yachts and have bigger yachts of it. And I did a ton of work.

And have you been on a super yacht? Have you ever been on one? Because I haven't.

I don't get close to any of that stuff. I've got a pontoon boat that is about a minute away from sinking. It's so old and broken down, but even still, like a pontoon boat to me is a yacht to other people. And so it's just a matter of perspective. And Tony Hsieh, the late founder of Zappos, wrote what I found to be a really wonderful and impactful book called Delivering Happiness. And he spent a lot of time studying the science of happiness and the notion of happiness. And one of the big takeaways and what I took on my talk that I did for a while because I turned my back on Hollywood for quite some time. I was making a lot of money, going to a lot of parties, being recognized, flying on private jets to Vegas and these kinds of things. And I just was not feeling fulfilled first and foremost. And happiness comes from fulfillment. And so starting this Saves Lives, which is a give back company with a mission to help save the lives of children around the world. Starting that as much work as it was was far more fulfilling and brought me far happier days than any time I ever spent on a private jet or at a red carpet premiere. And the big takeaway from Delivering Happiness is that there's essentially three levels of happiness. One is this kind of ephemeral lowest level of happiness where you post something on social media and you get a like and it's just fleeting, it's just there for a second and it's gone. Or you eat a good meal or something like that. It's happiness to some extent, but it's not deep, true, long lasting, fulfilling happiness. The second level, as he wrote, is flow state. And I think for those of us who experience that through sports or music or writing or anything that's kind of creative, a hobby where you just kind of lose time because you are in your element, that is real happiness. That's a happiness that we chase I chase it as a rock climber, but it's not long lasting, it's not deep. It might happen for a few minutes or an hour, and then you come out of it and you gain some happiness by trying to figure out how you can get it again. For me, it's the next rock climb, maybe. But then the highest level of happiness, as he writes, is true deep fulfillment. And that's being a part of something bigger than yourself. That's maybe for me, starting this saves lives. For other people, it might be family, it might be a career that they're deeply, deeply passionate about. It might be a church group or something like that, you know, like a faith thing. It's this notion of making a contribution on something that is bigger and more outside of yourself. And the fallacy that he says, I'm sorry, this is turning into a lecture now, I'll kick it back to you in a second. But just to close the point on it is the fallacy that he says, and that when I speak to college groups, is that people think that it's linear, that you make money so that you can buy the things that make you happy. That's the first thing, right? Buying stuff, getting the social media likes having the good meal, taking the vacation. So you need to have money to buy the stuff. And once you have the money to buy the stuff, you can do things that bring you more flow state happiness because you can take that vacation or you can do your hobbies. And then after you're financially secure and you've gotten all these other things lined up, then you can have a bigger impact on the world by giving money away or starting a charity or whatever it is. And so, as Tony wrote in that book, having worked with a lot of scientists that study happiness, he wrote that in fact, the better way to do it is the inverse. Have the purpose. Find something that's bigger than yourself, become a part of something that is meaningful. And then the other things are less, but they will come. Then you will make money and you will buy some things. But at least that deeper well will be filled, that deeper bucket will be full. And so, you know, I recognized that after kind of achieving what I thought would be the pinnacle of success in Hollywood, you know, for my ambitions, I wasn't some household name and on billboards, but I was actively making money and being recognized as an actor. And I wasn't feeling particularly happy or fulfilled. And that's what kind of the fertile ground of which this saves lives was born. And I learned a lot doing that. And hopefully Other people can learn from that as well and maybe not feel like they have to make a bunch of money to be happy, but rather you can be fulfilled first to be happy. And maybe you don't need that staff of 200 people on your super yacht. As you said, that's in fact not a key to happiness at all. It's not about the more that you have, it's about kind of the more that you do.

I'd love to thank you for sharing.

All this diatribe over.

Super interesting. No, I love it. And especially what you're describing of starting to come to your own awareness that acting wasn't the end all be for you. Sometimes I think the hardest part about pivoting is saying no to something. And especially saying no to something that's working. And when you were having success as an actor, it must be so hard to walk away in some sense. I mean, it sounds like your soul was definitely pulling the strings saying, we gotta go a different direction. Talk to us just a little bit about saying no. Like, you must have had a lot of fear that if you walk away now, you'll never come back. All the doors are gonna slam shut in your face. Your acting career will be over, especially if you move out of Hollywood. What was your self talk at that time? And then how did you ultimately give yourself permission to walk away knowing that it probably, you know, it doesn't have to be a binary thing that you're forever done with acting, but you're gonna go this way now.

Yeah, that's something great to kind of peel back on there. And I think the confidence to do something like that comes with practice. Like you say, the only constant is change. So let's get better at it, right? And so like, the more you get better at change, the more you experience pivots, the more comfortable you become with it. And I have always pivoted. Like you and I share this DNA trade of every few years, kind of getting a little restless and figuring out something new. So acting hadn't been the thing for me. It was just the current thing. And so for me, I think there was a little bit of comfort in taking a pivot to this saves lives. And also I think, like a little bit of cockiness maybe where I was just like, well, I probably did the hardest thing one can do, which is make it in Hollywood. I'll make it as an entrepreneur with this saves lives, and then I'll make it with the next thing. And so there wasn't a fear in the moment. Now being 43 with a family and kind of not having the benefit of that young cockiness. Now I think to myself often, oh God, did I make the right choice? Like, what if I had just stayed acting? Could I be far more financially secure? You know, like, what if this next business I start doesn't work out and I've invested my own money in it and now we're broke? You know, like, I guess I'm far less cavalier now than I was as a 23 year old who really didn't have much to lose, to be perfectly honest. So I'm grateful that I've pivoted enough times where I do feel confident that I can make it work or if it doesn't work, I can pivot quickly to a new thing that will work. So I went from acting to entrepreneur startup life with this saves lives, running it as the CEO. Then I went back to acting. Then we moved to Kentucky and I didn't know what the heck I was going to do. I was like, kind of aimless. And so I started like taking a real interest in my 3 year old's educational experience. And I was really unhappy with how much time he spent indoors at preschool. So I took a year and I studied and trained under two of the premier forest kindergarten programs in the country. And Forest Kindergarten is basically outdoor preschool and kindergarten in all weather. There's no indoor time. It's like, based on like Western European fascinating early child education. It's so cool because like kids can handle it and kids should be outside, they shouldn't be around like neon colored blocks and fluorescent lights and these kinds of things. And so then I started Kentucky's most successful forest school program. We've got 100 kids in the program. And I took a few years and became the director. It's a nonprofit forest school program called Thrive Forest School in Louisville, Kentucky. And I started that and now both my kids go to that and that was awesome. But then I stepped away from that and then started this rock climbing podcast. And so, like, I'm still working on my pivots, I guess. Jenny and every time I do one, it's a little scary and a little crazy. But I think just exercising that muscle, you know, kind of exposure therapy in a sense has helped.

And it sounds like I can relate so much to being a builder, taking something from what Peter Thiel wrote a book called Zero to One, that it sounds like you see problems and you like to take it from 0 to 1. And then once it's at a 1, you're not necessarily the person that wants to take it from a one to a two or three or four and so on. And then you kind of pass it off like you lit this fire, you got it started, and then you can kind of move to the next thing.

Yeah, that's exactly right. I totally lose interest after about 1.5, you know, me too. I want to prove the concept. I want to get it going. I want to do all the hard stuff. And then as soon as it's working, I'm like, okay, I'm out of here.

I know. It's me too. And I have to resist the urge sometimes. Sometimes it's hard to know, do I wait this out or do I shut it down and, like, will I get through a phase where it feels like I'm just maintaining? And for me, sometimes that maintaining energy, I need to shift it. And even with this podcast, and I wanna hear about yours. Cause I heard that joyful spark in your voice when you talked about it. But even with podcasting, there were times where I would start dreading interview days. And then I just realized, well, then I'm inviting the wrong people, you know, because that just means I'm not inviting the right people. So you've now created a show that's right down the strike zone of one of your passions, which is rock climbing. How is it being on this side of the mic again? It sounds like you have experience from doing Entertainment Tonight, but how has it been for you getting to interview people in the rock climbing community and trying this new format?

It's wonderful. Yeah. I appreciate you asking. You know, it's another one of those ideas that was born from kind of a restlessness in what I was current. So with the forest preschool we were into, our fourth year had become Kentucky's most successful program, and things were running really smoothly, like, there were no fires to put out. And so immediately I was like, ooh, I'm feeling restless. And that's always when my wife is like, don't do it, Ryan. Don't start something new. And, like, I can't help it. It's just like, again, it's the DNA trait, but this time, I went straight towards kind of a niche passion. And so for me, like, my release is rock climbing. I think the rock climbing community is incredibly special. It's empowering. It tackles fears, there's accomplishment, there's focus, training, flow, state, all the things. It's nature, which is from the environment to starting a forest preschool to rock climbing. Like, my heart is in nature. And so it wasn't a move to Try to make money. Shocker. A rock climbing podcast is not a seven figure opportunity. @ least not.

Yet. I'm.

Shocked. But it was a move to give something back to the community and to talk to some of my.

Heroes. So maybe you'll get free gear. You never.

Know. Yeah, I've gotten some free gear. I mean, again, it's like the joke that I have with my climbing buddies is like that quote, unquote, free gear has cost me like $10,000 in terms of my.

Time. That's so true. That's so.

True. But I have conversations with people who are. I'm really inspired by. And these are accessible humans, you know, like even the biggest rock climbers in the world are not really household names. Except for maybe Alex Honnold, who was the subject of Free Solo, which won an Academy Award. And he does some pretty impressive stuff. And he was a guest on season one. We talked a lot about fear, fear of falling and fear of failure. And that's what I like about the podcast is I get to talk with these people who are accessible, who are real and are not like megastar basketball players and, you know, that kind of live behind these gated neighborhoods and that kind of thing. They're just real people that share their passion and share their fears. And for me, I'm more starstruck in those conversations than I ever was talking to Will Smith or Mariah Carey or these people that I've interviewed over the years, some of the biggest celebrities in the world. Like talking to Lynn Hill. She was the absolute force in bringing rock climbing kind of into the modern entertainment age. She was on David Letterman. She was the first person to free climb El Capitan man or woman. I mean, like when she came on screen, I was just like blur, you know, I didn't even know how to talk to her, I was so starstruck. And Tommy Caldwell and, and Alex Honnold and these people. So it's been really fun. I do have ambitions because, like, I'm an ambitious person to grow this podcast into a greater kind of entertainment platform. And I think there's real opportunity there. But that wasn't the goal going in. The goal was just to talk to these people, share some interesting stories and give back to the community. And so I'm really happy with how it's going. It's called the Struggle Climbing Show. People can check it out wherever they listen to. And even if you're not a climber, we cover things like goal setting and fears and failures, and rock climbing kind of brings all these things to the surface as you're trying not to fall off of a cliff. It's a really cool landscape to talk about, like human emotion and accomplishment and failure. So I'm having a lot of fun with it and yeah, we'll see where it goes. I still got to pay the bills, so I'm still hustling in other ways. But I think even if I had a $10 million lotto ticket in my hand, I'd still be hustling in all the ways because that's just kind of like what I need to do to tick. So I think you're the.

Same. Oh yeah, I love it. I know. I was thinking, I just recorded an episode for the Free Time podcast where I talked about considering should I sell the pivot side of my business? Because as we talked about, I built this whole thing up and all it needs now is a salesperson, like someone to come in and sell the IP licensing to companies, fancy business y stuff. And one of the reasons that I actually decided not to was not only that I couldn't sell it like it's not in a saleable state, but also what for? Okay, then I get money. Unless it's a life changing amount of money, I'm just giving away a big source of meaning and joy. And look, here we are connecting, having this conversation. And so yeah, exactly. Like even if I did have all the money in the world, I would want to create things things and keep making things.

We'll be right back just after.

This.

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I want to ask you. It's funny you read my mind because I do have a question for you about rock climbing as a metaphor for life. But first I have to know, why did you call it the Struggle Climbing.

Show? Yeah, I mean, that's just what has fascinated me maybe most about kind of climbing is that it is a great equalizer. Like, we all struggle. I've had the greatest rock climbers in the world. On my podcast, I just talked with Tommy Caldwell. He is one of two people climbing team that climbed the Dawn Wall, which is largely considered the hardest big wall climb in the world. It was national attention when it happened, and there's a great movie that came out. And Kevin Jorgensen, his partner on that project, was on the first season as well. And Lynn Hill I mentioned, and Alex Honnold, and there's many, many others, kind of the biggest names. And they're all struggling to achieve. It's just at a higher level than I'm trying to achieve. But we can relate to that. It's a very scalable feeling. And I just think that we connect far more over our struggles than we do over our wins. Like, the wins are great, they're fun, but it's the struggles that make us stronger. It's what gives us depth in our lives. It's in fact, what makes the ultimate success actually meaningful. So the entree of every episode is to look at struggle, whether it's through training. You know, my question is, where have you struggled in your training? Hey, you, strongest rock climber in the world. And then we hear her say, I really struggle with finger strength. And I'm like, what? You're the strongest rock climber in the world? And she's like, a lot of my friends can lift harder than I can, or can hang more weight weight or can pull harder. And so, like, I struggle to get out of bed and like, get excited to go to the gym and do it. And I'm like, so do I. You know, it's just very relatable. I think it takes these athletes off of the pedestal that oftentimes we put them on and just, you know, makes them feel. Because they are humans that are just like us. They struggle. So do we. So we always connect through struggle, but then try to leave with some real actionable takeaways on how we can get better with our mental game or with our tactics or with our nutrition. And that's just kind of always fascinating, I guess, maybe because as an entrepreneur, we're constantly struggling. So there's just something it's like being in the trenches or something like that. You just build deeper relationships when you go through struggle.

Together. I love that. And like you said, that's actually what gives people encouragement is that, well, if even Ryan Devlin struggles with this or if even Alex Honnold has fear or has things he's struggling with currently in his training and he keeps going, it is so encouraging for people. So before I ask you, I always like to leave listeners with one little piece of homework. But I also love a good juicy metaphor. So how do you think rock climbing can be a metaphor for pivoting, navigating.

Change? Ooh, that's great. And also very easy. So thank.

You. And this will become your book.

Premise. Give me a softball here. You know what we often talk about with rock climbing is that that the playing field is constantly changing. If you're a basketball player, whether you play basketball in Japan or in Florida or in an NBA stadium, it's the same. The court is the same, the hoops are the Same distance apart, 10ft off the ground, you've got your lines painted in the same exact place because that's the way the game is set up, right? For that consistency. Rock climbing is not that. It is constantly changing. You get on one route and it's at a 50 degree overhang and there's tiny holds and you get on another route and it's 160ft long and it's a crack that you have to jam your body into and muscle up of it. And so you're constantly pivoting your mindset and your tactics in rock climbing to adapt to that shifting landscape. And even when you think something is set in stone, literal, actual stone, it changes. Like there are famous routes out there just recently that holds broke off with of because you get too much rain or somebody pulls on it in a weird way, or the rock is just settling. And now all of a sudden what you thought was this very predictable route up the classic rock climb is now different because the hold broke off and it changed. And what do you do? Do you give up? Absolutely not. You pivot, right? You adapt, you figure out a new way through. And so rock climbing is constant problem solving. And so for me, I don't climb at a super high level, but I want to climb, you know, at a higher and higher level. So I'm pushing myself and I climb with people who climb harder than I do. And so I was out on a route just recently and my buddy climbed it in a very certain way to go through this crux, the Crux is kind of like the hardest few moves on a route. And he's like, yeah, just do it like that. And I got up there and I tried the way he did it and I absolutely could not do it. I totally shut down. He grabbed onto a tiny little edge with his super strong fingers and pulled through it and I couldn't do it. Every time I tried to to climb onto that edge, I just fell off. And I was hanging there, getting discouraged, just thinking like, okay, well I can't do this. But as I'm hanging there, I'm studying the features of the rock and I found this way to grab what's called an undercling. So I'm kind of grabbing a hold upside down and standing up super tall and I could skip the tiny edge that he used to get to a better hold. And so I just found my own way through the crux. He did it one way, I couldn't do it that way. I hung there, I studied it, didn't give up, found a new way and ended up sending the route. And I was really proud of it. And nobody that I was with had ever seen it climbed that.

Way.

Wow. You know, it was just done out of necessity. And so I think whether you're in life, whatever crux you hit in life, you can adapt to it. People are going to try and work through it one way, but there are 10 other ways to do it if you just kind of of take a look at it and problem solve. And so I think rock climbing is a very apt metaphor for entrepreneurship as well as, you know, just life in general. And highly recommend it too. Jenny. I'm sure there are a few climbing gyms around you over there. Like it's very.

Accessible. And what I enjoyed was that I've done yoga for about 15 years. That actually the flexibility yoga brings is helpful for certain positions of being able to stretch in certain ways. So. I know what you mean. I can totally see the appeal. Maybe not Alex Honnold levels of.

Reclaiming. No, no. Make sure you wear a rope. We need you still in one piece, Jenny, to continue to bring great content to the world. But yeah, get out there. It'll force you to kind of look inward as you're looking outward. It's really meditative and that's why I got into it, by the way. And I know we're trying to wrap up, but like I got into rock climbing after I started this Saves Lives because I was so stressed out and so constantly thinking about spreadsheets and this kind of thing that When I went to the gym, like a normal gym, I was just on a treadmill. It was not a release. I was just running on a treadmill, thinking about the calls that I had to make. And then one day I popped into a rock climbing gym that was right near my other gym, and I was like, this looks interesting. And I started climbing. And I was so gripped with fear, because that's a natural response to climbing, right? That's evolutionary psychology, is like, don't fall. I was so gripped with fear that it immediately put me into a flow state, into a meditative kind of a mindfulness where like. Like instead of focusing on the breath, you're focusing on grabbing the next hold so you don't fall. And an hour went by, and I didn't think about a single sales call or spreadsheet or investor newsletter. I had just was having fun. I highly recommend rock climbing. You don't have to be like a great rock climber. You don't have to be ambitious about it. But, like, it's a great way to just find a release and take your mind off of maybe what it's constantly ruminating on during normal kind of times of the day. So I'll leave it at that. But if people are interested, they can also listen to the podcast and.

Get a better sense for it, get inspiration, get some inspo. Well, two things. First of all, I love that you shared that. Secondly, you took the metaphor and really ran with it. So good. I love what you said. I think you can write a book called the Crux about finding your own way through life. But also you mentioned flow. And Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi describes the two levers that create flow are just enough challenge and just enough skill to meet that challenge. So the story you described where you were stuck and your friend did it a certain way, that you didn't have the skill to do it the way he did. Oh, my gosh, it's so rewarding when you find your own way, you get through the challenge. Like, that's the ultimate flow state and problem solving. And the other thing that came to mind when you were saying that is it's verbatim, practically what Mark Zuckerberg told Joe Rogan, which is the reason he stopped running, was his brain didn't shut off, so he started jujitsu, which my husband is an avid Bjjer, like, obsessed. It's all we talk about in the.

House. Oh, that's.

Great. But because jiu jitsu is so present, because in a way, it's Also mimicking life and death because you're choking people, you know, and submitting them every day on the mats. And it's very humbling. And that those kind of fully immersive sports is just interesting how you described it as the counterbalance to the business side. And even Mark Zuckerberg, the big billionaire that he is, needs to take his mind off of the big job through a sport like.

That. Zuck should try rock.

Climbing. I know, right? You should.

Get. Hey, Zach, if you're listening. Yeah, not in the metaverse. Let's get on some real.

Rocks. The IRL.

Verse. That's.

Right. I also love when you said, even when you think something is set in stone, literal, actual stone, it changes. That's so good. So it makes me.

Laugh. You're a sponge, Jenny. You've got like a. Oh my God. It's like a photographic podcast memory. I wish I could could call back like you.

Do. No, my secret is that I press mute and I take little notes sometimes. So I used to do that with my coaching client. Yeah, I mean I like it. Note taking. So side. Now we're really on a tangent. I used to get paid to take lecture notes in college. That was my kind of side hustle. So I ended up working at. I went to UCLA where I got paid to sit in class and the only risk was that my notes would be so good that I would affect the curve and therefore lower my grade. But taking notes is just something I can do while listening and it just helps me stay present lest you think I'm not paying.

Attention. No, you're very good at what you do. This has been so.

Enjoyable. Thank you, Ryan. I know. Likewise. I always like to leave listeners with one small next step or piece of homework. I'm going to guess you're going to say go to a climbing wall. Is there anything.

Else? 100%. I mean that truly is it. I could try to think of something else, but I really would like to challenge listeners. Rock climbing is the fastest growing sport right now in the country and was just in the Olympics and so there's a good chance there's a climbing gym around where you're at. And don't be afraid, don't think like, oh, I don't have the rock climbers strength or body or whatever. Like there are routes for every single person out there. I was at my gym the other day and there was a grandma there with her grandson and she was on a rope going up and having a friggin blast. And so that's amazing. You Know, like, let's be kids, let's have some fun and take our mind off the madness for a little bit and you'll discover something about yourself if you can get out to a rock climbing gym. So I will leave them at that. I think that that's a good way and I think good things will come from.

It. Well, listeners, report back if you go to the climbing wall, tell us how it goes. You can always email hellopivotmethod.com or of course subscribe to Ryan's podcast, the Struggle Climbing Show. Check out and order yourself some bars. This saves lives. What's the URL? Is it thissaveslives.com or this.

Bar? Yeah, yeah, it's thissaveslives.com on social media, like on Instagram, we're at this bar, but you know, if you just search it, it'll come up. We're also at like Whole Foods and Kroger and we're at kind of a million stores, but you can also just buy them online and. Yeah, and thanks. You know, I appreciate anybody if you snack, which I think a lot of us are snackers, I appreciate you checking it out because I think it's good products. But we're also helping to save kids lives around the world. So that's a hack right there. Talk about being efficient, you know, helping kids around the world while you're having a snack. So. Yeah, and thank you, Jenny, for your support with.

That. Well, likewise. I'm so happy we connected and we said before we hit record, I heard you on another show saying you always get cast as the bad guy, which is just the ultimate irony because you have the warmest, kindest personality and are doing such good in the world. So I just really appreciate getting to know you better. Thank you for sharing all that you did with us.

Today. That was very nice of you to say. Yeah, and thank you. I'm really excited to continue to listen and you're very insightful with what you're sharing here. So thanks for what you're doing for the community as.

Well. Thank you, Ryan. That makes my day. Listeners, thank you for being here. You made it to the end of the podcast and we'll see you next time. Thanks everybody.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get shownotes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter at Jenny.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it.

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