307: Pivoting from Google to Launching People Playbook with Tony McGaharan

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Quite honestly, Jenny, it has all been relationships. It's been people that I played basketball with 10 years ago. It's been folks that I worked with in Google when I was in apac. It's been folks I met in my coaching qualification who now are heading up L and D functions. It's just this myriad of different approaches where people have the opportunity to kind of get a recommendation or referral or they've seen me or us in action and they think, oh, I really love what Tony and or People Playbook is doing. I'm going to reach out to them.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast. If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Welcome back Pivoters. I am so excited to be here Today with Tony McGaraghan. Tony is a leadership development expert who previously worked for Google's People Operations team in Dublin, in Singapore, in London. He's an experienced leader, effective facilitator, qualified coach both on and off the basketball court, and his recent venture is founding People Playbook. He started that in 2020. He he hosts the three points podcast that I was honored to be a guest on for the Free Time book tour and he's partnered with all kinds of organizations across the globe to design and deliver purpose built leadership development programs. He's one of our Pivot coaches so you can work with him one on one if the mood strikes. He's an awesome guy and I had so much fun recording with him and producer Matt on his show three Points that Matt then interviewed me for free time. And now we are coming full circle where I'm having Tony on the Pivot podcast. So Tony, welcome to the show.

Oh, it's great to be here and can I just say that was excellent pronunciation of my name, Jenny. Super.

I got so self conscious, I'm like, shoot, I forgot to ask you.

Listen, you fake it till you make it, but no, you leaned in and nailed it perfectly. Some of my best friends of 20 plus years can't pronounce it as well as you just did. So thank you for that. That means a lot.

Can you pronounce it best of all right now, so we all hear it.

Yeah. Tony McGarren. There's an itch in there.

Yes.

I'm not sure how it came to be there, Jenny, but it is there. But we pretend it isn't.

See, now I know. Thank you. You made the really tough choice to leave Google. And as I've often talked about it, it's hard to leave a big brand company where you're feeling really comfortable under the shade of the big Google tree. And you and I both work with Google to this day. But I know for sure, having done it, it's not easy. It's not easy to leave any job and it's certainly not easy to leave a company like Google. So we're going to talk about the pandemic hitting just a short few months later. But you didn't know that was coming down the pike. How did you know that it was time to give your notice?

Wow. Well, yeah, no one knew that was coming down, I suppose. And I remember even as we were getting closer to it, moving kind of west, I think we were all starting to take stock. Certainly. It was certainly a strange time to be leaving, I guess. How did I know? The honest answer is, Jenny, I had known for, I think several years, it had honestly been in my mind for quite some time that actually I would like to kind of venture out on my own and kind of hone my craft in this area of kind of learning, leadership, team development. I suppose some of the work that I got to do in Google, which gave me the confidence, I wonder if this was the same for you, was working with some external partners via Google and having some success in this area and then feeling like, I think I could possibly do this outside of Google. I think before I was taking advantage of such an incredible company and a big brand where, you know, it was easy to walk into a room with a partner because you're going in with all the credibility that working for a company like Google brings. And I think then I started getting some feedback after sessions and workshops where folks would come up and rather than talk about some of the Google IP or some of the Google methodologies I was sharing as part of these workshops, they were saying, how did you keep everyone engaged for two hours? And it feel like it went by in like a flash. And that was incredibly fun and engaging and lots of things about kind of how I was doing the work more so than necessarily some of the models and as I say, the Google methodologies that I was sharing. And that's when I started to think, oh, I. I think I'd be interested in taking a risk and trying this.

It's interesting how you're right. Now that you've said it, this is the first moment that I'm connecting the dots, that it's true. All the external vendors that I was in training and development as well, that I would work with, each one does plant a little seed. Even if for me in the early years at Google it was more unconscious because I don't think I ever dared to dream that I could do what they were doing. I was also still early in my career. You're right. Each one shows, hey, there's something on the other side of this. There's something that they're doing, how they're setting up their life and work and they're coming in, teaching their ideas. How interesting. So you had started at Google in 2013 and you ended up leaving almost seven years later. You gave your notice at the end of 2019. What I find interesting is how do you know when to pivot internally? Maybe there was part of you that thought, yeah, I love facilitating. Let me pivot onto the L and D team or people ops and make this more part of my role. So how did you navigate whether you should pivot internally and keep all those wonderful benefits versus start to think about going completely on your own?

When I think about the journey that I was on with Google, well, I moved from nonprofit. I've had a bunch of different careers. I've a bunch of different pivots, Jenny, if you will. I worked as a high school business studies and PE teacher and then I pivoted into work at a nonprofit and sort of community development work, peace building work where I'm from in Belfast. And then I took on this Google job initially supporting the ads business. And when I was in that kind of Google stint, I think originally, I think it started off with going, okay, I'll give this a couple of years, this Google thing, see how it goes. I'm curious to see, you know, how I will thrive or just survive in this environment. And it led to such great opportunities, from Dublin to moving into Singapore and back into kind of People, development, the area that I know you were heavily involved in too. And, and then I had this sort of path and I was on it for five or six years. I think five years in, I started to think I can kind of see down the path a little bit more clearly now. I can kind of see what this career might look like in Google. And honestly, probably because I like change, I like taking risks, I like variety. I could see that path and I thought, you know, I think I want to get off this path and move to a different one. Honestly, I think that's what really motivated me to make a change.

How did you confront the inevitable fears? What if I end up broke? What if I fail? You know, I don't know how confident you were making that choice, but I certainly felt that it was just purely 5050 at that time I wasn't feeling 100% confident in anything. I just felt that for the first time I was willing to at least roll the dice, but I had no sense that I would actually succeed at it. So how did you tame the financial, what I call my inner cfo.

Oh, it's interesting. You go with the financial there. I'm curious before I answer, was there something that gave you that extra push and you thought give you the confidence to move forward?

Tricky, tricky, turning the mic.

Well, my final moment was my first book was launching in March of 2011 and so I took a three month sabbatical. Like you, for several years I had been hitting different plateaus, but then I would get a new project that would keep me re energized and I was always bumping up against these little plateaus or sort of bureaucracy or being in the wrong role or being overwhelmed by email and meetings. There were always things that weren't 100% aligned with my personality. Let's say just nothing to do with Google. Any company would be like that. Of course I couldn't know that because I didn't have entrepreneurship to compare it to. But when my book was launching, I asked for a three month sabbatical. I genuinely thought I would come back when I asked for that. But of course, two weeks in I go. There's no way now that I see how much work I can actually do, I'm filling the entire day with just trying to get this book launch to succeed. That's when I realized I can't do both anymore. I have to make a choice. And once in my life I want to know that I at least tried and bet on myself. I just have to know that I tried at that Point. How about you?

I absolutely love that and I just love listening to, by the way, both Pivot and freetime podcasts. I'm always picking up little nuggets.

Oh, thank you.

Thank you for sharing that and allowing me, indulging me as I turn the mic on you. Honestly, a couple of things that come to mind. I'm not sure if you came across Peter Barron in your time. He's actually a Belfast native. He was in communications in Google and he's actually now currently working in Stripe. But Peter and I sort of formed a relationship in Google and I remember even sharing with him at a different point where I was sort of on the fence about making the Pivot and leaving Google and starting something new. And I didn't know what that was going to be exactly, except I knew what type of work I wanted to do. And Peter and I had a conversation in a hub around the corner from the Google London office near Victoria Station and I was explaining the predicament and he and I had a conversation about him learning Spanish and he said there are a couple of types of people in this world. He said there's the type of person who is happy to do a Wednesday night two hour class learning Spanish every week and kind of hone their craft, develop their skill in the language. And then he said, but I'm the type of person that you should just drop me in Spain for three or six months and I'll figure it out. And I remember Jenny, that, that really just sat with me and I recognized in that conversation that I'm the same type of person. Drop me in Spain, I'll figure out the language from there. So I really wanted to, I knew I couldn't kind of get to that stage. The fact that you had a book coming out is incredible. I'm not sure how you were able to make that happen while also doing kind of full time work, but fair play to you. I just needed to kind of take the leap really. The big thing that you mentioned around finance, I'm so glad you mentioned it because it sometimes is a bit taboo, isn't it, where folks are like, oh, we don't really want to talk about money and. But it is the thing that, as you say, the inner CFO will speak up and hold you back. I think the way that I was able to get ahead of that was I don't spend a lot of money. I think that's the first thing I think I was relatively good at kind of saving money throughout my time at Google. I mean, I certainly made More money in Google than I ever thought I would ever make, coming from kind of public sector and nonprofit. So I never took that for granted. Plus, we grew up with not a lot of money in our family and in our household. And so I was always quite aware that I wanted to have enough for a rainy day. And I always wanted to make sure that I was in a good financial position. And that's what I had done. And part of my decision in terms of making the pivot was that I had been in Dublin and Singapore and London, then back to Dublin. But I really, after seven years, wanted to come home to Belfast. It's a tremendous city. A lot of my friends and family are here, my roots, my tribe. And so that was a big part of the decision also was that I would move back to Belfast. And it's a really livable city. It's not New York, it's not London, it's not Sydney. It's much more affordable. So I kind of had worked out that I didn't need as much money to have a really good life in Belfast than I would outside of that. Now it's interesting, you talk about different people that come to you when I left Google and I'm sure this was the same for you. Many people are like, how did you do it? How did you leave? And you know, I talk about some of the ideas I had around building a business. I talked about learning to lean into my skillset and my passion and how I had gotten confidence from doing that within Google and how I wanted to take it out. But ultimately, when it came down to the conversation about finance, I remember a specific conversation with a Googler who kind of said, I'm not prepared to give up my six figure salary. And that was the end for them.

Yeah, for sure. And some people have different life events going on, and that's the number one most important thing. It sounds like you and I both shared a sense that the salary was not the deciding factor in this case. It was the sense of taking a risk, betting on yourself, working more, doubling down on your strengths, doing more of the work that you love. A lot of that was true for me too, which is what ultimately enabled me to put the temptation of the salary aside. Although of course it's tempting. So you give notice at the end of 2019. When was your last day at Google? You know where I'm going with this.

I love when I tell this story. So, yeah, so I gave notice to the end of 2019, and I have to say, my manager was fantastic at the Time. I don't know about you, Jenny, but I felt a little bit of guilt leaving. I sort of felt like, oh, I had all this for sure.

I thought they would hate me. I was like letting my team down. I thought no one would ever want to talk to me again.

Exactly. And I wonder if your manager was as great as mine because he literally looked at me and I didn't say anything except that I was thinking about leaving or I was going to leave. And he said, you don't need to feel guilty. And a huge weight just lifted off my shoulder. So that happened in 2019. And yes, you are right then. My final day, my final day in Google was February 26, 2020, at which point I was so excited to start building a business in March 2020.

Wild.

It is wild. And usually when I tell people this, there's typically a look or a sigh of just, honestly, there's no better word than pity. You know, just like, oh no. And maybe a little sympathy. And the thing about it is, Jenny, probably not the most ideal time in some ways, but silver linings are everywhere and you've just got to look for them and you've got to look for the opportunities. And I was really set up in my mind and also in my bank account to not really make a whole lot of money anyway in kind of the first year. I was comfortable with that anyway. So I wasn't expecting to walk out and make a six figure salary again. So the big thing for me was, okay, let's just lean into this. And what was really interesting, we've talked about me moving back to Belfast. Now I know contrary to popular belief, Belfast is not the, the epicenter of leadership development and big organizations and kind of lots of investment in the area that I was going into. So I had this vision that I would be traveling to London more often than not to do some of this work. But what happened was I was able to lean into this sort of virtual way of working and online workshops. And I started to kind of chip away at that as kind of growing the business in more of a remote working fashion. Right. With sort of virtual and online work. And the silver lining there was that the marketplace became global for me in a way that it would not have been had the pandemic not happened.

That is fascinating because, yeah, on one hand this is the worst possible time to start a business, especially one that centers on training and facilitation. But then the irony, as you just described, that's so beautifully put, that all of a sudden your market went from Belfast to global. And as long as you're agile and able to work your network and deliver virtually and be really good at it and be that incredible personality and energy that you bring that you have, you were able to ride the really rocky waves. I think I'm mixing metaphors as I usually do, but choppy, let's call it choppy waves, Rocky economic times and choppy waves.

We'll be right back just after this.

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What I find interesting looking back at my March 2020 self, I mean, what a rollercoaster. And it would be so disorienting to start a business right during that time because you don't know which end is up. It's hard enough to start a business at all in some ways, let alone during that economy. And yet at the time of this recording, tech companies are doing massive layoffs. Like here we are almost three years later and it's as rocky as it was. And I think part of me felt in March 2020, we just gotta get through this month. Then it was we just gotta get through this year. Then two years later it's like we just gotta get through this major crash and recession that's about to hit or that is hitting or all these layoffs. And each time I think that I'm working around a corner, there's another test and another one. But then the silver lining, as I've talked about often with my brother, is, well, if you can steer a company through this, I think all of us are going to be wiping our brow after when it is a normal economy, we're going to think, oh, this is easy. This is nothing compared to the last few years.

Yeah, absolutely. And being small means that you can be agile and means that you can quickly Pivot and change. I mean, when I started the business, I was just open and interested and curious about all the different types of work that was available to me. I mean, the fun story from the lockdown days, and anyone who knows me still makes fun of it as kind of a defining point of my career. I actually became a quiz master online during the pandemic. And it sounds silly to say, but we started this online quiz during a time when folks were stuck at home. We had a very captive audience, to say the least, right? There was nothing to do. We started this Friday night quiz. Originally, we were raising funds for PPE where a lot of folks in hospitals and nurse homes were desperate for it. So we raised money to buy some of that and we would donate it to different places. And then I started partnering with a local cooperative brewery who also was really struggling, a small brewery in Belfast. And they were thinking about ways that they could stay afloat as a brewery. And a friend of mine came and said, look, would you do this quiz thing for us? Anyway, long story short, we ran the quiz every Friday night. It grew from about 50 teams, so 50 households, to almost 250 every week across the world. Joining for this online quiz with music and comedy, and then myself as the host. And it was just so fun and it was a way to make a little bit of money. But what was also fantastic about that for me, Jenny, was I was able to hone my craft online. You talked about my energy and thank you so much. And that's one of the things that I think really set us apart at the start. Set me apart at the start. Were bringing energy to this online workshop area versus other folks that it's like death by PowerPoint or Google Slides and people are falling asleep at home going, this is the most boring thing I've ever been at. I was bringing live music and comedy to different events. And it started by doing it on this online quiz, which built up a community of people that were just so grateful to have something to do during the week in their homes and when we were all locked down. And Jenny, you wouldn't believe that, like, still now I have built. Probably a 10 or 20 different clients have come from that online quiz in the corporate space.

That's incredible. Who would have thought that that would be such a lead gen and such a joyful part of these last few years. I love hearing these different ways that people like you leverage your talents to be of service during that time. But then to help create so much joy and community for people.

It was just such A win win for everyone, right? And like I just met a couple of weeks ago a VP of a drug discovery firm. So they're responsible for like finding new cures for cancer and various other cool things, right? And he's super senior in his organization and we sit across the table from one another and he was a member of this online quiz and he's kind of looking at me in awe. He's like, I just can't believe you're here, Tony. And he's like, you were in my front room every Friday night for 60 weeks for over a year. I was staring at your face on my TV screen and now you're in front of me in 3D. And it's just the most bizarre thing. But yes, I think finding ways to give back crazy time was really important. And you know, I really believe if you're doing that stuff, it comes back tenfold and it certainly has for our business.

You and I both still work with Google to this day. How did you navigate that? Because a lot of people don't realize that leaving a full time job, as scary as it is, they can often become your first and sometimes best client. So how are you able to maintain that relationship to where they're still one of your clients to this day? And then in addition to the trivia or the quiz, how else do you find it to be joyful? Where else do your clients come from? How do they find you?

Oh, it is as you say, they're certainly one of the best clients and it's a real treat to still stay connected to former colleagues and also meet new folks from Google. We were talking before we hit record about working with Googlers and it's fun, it's really fun. We just get it, don't we Jenny? The culture and the energy of the place. I mean that still I think very much exists in Google and so it's just been great working with them. So there's a number of different ways that that's come about. I think what was fun was one of my former colleagues in Singapore who is an hrbp. She moved back to London, passed our name on to another hrbp and this is years later, right? And that led to some work. We were over in Google London working with a senior sales team there and that was amazing. So having those word of mouth and personal recommendation goes a long way to making sure that we still have this relationship with Google and we're still able to partner together on work like that. I think the second piece around Google is that I had the Privilege of being involved in a lot of work with Google for Startups and Google Devrel that was focused on supporting startup leaders and part of a leadership development program where they looked into what are the key distinctions of an effective founder. And throughout the time they were building this research that's now leading to hopefully their book is that I was involved. I mean, I was able to be invited. Martin said, hey, do you want to get involved in the delivery of this program? And I was like, absolutely. So we were traveling to like Indonesia, Colombia, Brazil, and we were facilitating this work kind of around the world for startup leaders. And so when I left Google, that was kind of the area that I most wanted to stay connected to. And honestly, I was happy to do it at that time. I was happy to do it pro bono or just for free because I love working with startups and I love working with Martin and Josh and the whole Google for Startups team is incredible. And I love the work that they do. So that led to them being a client and I still remain plugged in, I mean, so much. So we just finished an APAC Women Founders Academy and we were working with 10 founders from across Asia Pacific. And I'm really excited about doing more work with them. It's been a real treat. So I think Carrie and I, as we were talking about before we hit record, taking forward those relationships that you've built in whatever company you're working with is a really good way to set you up for success as you venture right into your next thing.

I don't think I quite realized how those relationships would last. It didn't occur to me. I was so young when I started at Google that I did often say it felt like I was getting an mba. There's no better company. I always debated going to grad school, but instead working at Google for five years, in your case, almost seven. It's such an education in business, building startups, technology, communication, how to scale things at such a vast global scale, both internal programs and then externally to the world. But the one thing that I did not realize until I left that still surprises me to this day is the alumni. I have such stronger relationships with former Googlers or current Googlers than I do even my undergraduate, my university days. It's wild. I don't think I ever really realized the power of that alumni network of people who like Nev, our mutual friend who we trained together and traveled the world together back in 2006 and now she's on her own and we still keep in touch, or people who will Fill out a feedback survey of a training I'll give now. And they say in the feedback, you were my trainer 15 years ago and it's so cool to see you back here. It's incredible. It's a gift that keeps on giving. And I just say that in such detail because I want listeners to know that leaving a company, there's still so much more good that can come from it. It's just that you're participating in a different context this time as a contractor, not an employee. But those relationships can still keep blossoming and unfolding just as you described too, Tony.

Yeah, I love how you have really detailed that because actually I would say, and I'm sure this is the case for you, they've deepened. I mean, my relationships with some folks from Google has deepened to a point where I bring in lots of Googlers or ex Googlers into some of the programs that we design and deliver across the world. And I'm always reaching out, but I think the relationships are even stronger as a result of leaving. There's an argument to be made around making that pivot because it strengthens those relationships. I haven't forgotten your second question, which was how do we find new clients.

Ultimately such a pro podcaster that you just kept that pin that we dropped. Yes, and I always try not to do the two part question, but you've passed my test, my two part test. And the reason I ask that is that probably the number one biggest challenge of starting a business is can you generate enough business? Can you get enough clients coming through the door? And for me, with the books, I write the books so that I don't have to do any outbound work so people will just come to me. That's been my strategy. But how about you? It sounds like relationship building is a huge part of what you do and just being your wonderful self. Are there other strategies that have worked particularly well for you these last few years?

It's such an interesting point because first of all, I love both your books. They're on my bookshelf behind me and we're big fans of them and I can see how that would lead people to go, oh my goodness, I want to learn more about what Jenny Blake's doing. And I know there are other people when they go to build a business, they think about scale immediately. How can I build something that's scalable in terms of their enterprise? I think the word that keeps coming into my head that I have been thinking about putting out here is that for me, it's all around expectation Setting with yourself, what is my goal? What do I expect to earn? You know, what I expect to do with my time and my days. You know, one of the things I really wanted to do before I explained sort of how we go about building a client base. You know, I wanted four day working week. I was like, I want a four day working week. And that's something that's really important to me. I want that flexibility. You know, I volunteer with our basketball club. I wanted the freedom and the time to do other things. So that was really important. But yes, expectation setting. So yes, there are multiple ways to grow your business. You've gone down the route of having those books, which is just an incredible gift to the world where people then want to find out more, learn more about you. And as I mentioned, I know others approach it from a kind of a how do I scale? And they look at maybe a SaaS business and so on. When I have started the business I really just wanted to do the best work I could for whomever wanted to work with me. And that's honestly been the mindset from day one, is put yourself out there, be open to different types of work. My coach says, Tony, be careful what you do because what you do, you do more of. So I always tried, especially in the first two years to try different things, to experiment and test and see what type of projects I wanted to spend more time in. And so over the last sort of two and a half, almost three years, I guess I've been saying yes to lots of things and just being open to new business. And quite honestly, Jenny, it has all been relationships. It's been people that I played basketball with 10 years ago. It's been folks that I worked with in Google when I was in apac. It's been folks I met in my coaching qualification who now are heading up L and D functions. It's just this myriad of different approaches where people have the opportunity to kind of get a recommendation or referral or they've seen me or us in action and they think, oh, I really love what Tony and or people playbook is doing. I'm going to reach out to them. So it's just kind of this very slow organic growth and now we're only getting at a stage where we're starting to think about okay, how do we make sure we're continuing that growth into next year in the right way and.

Referrals are the highest compliment. I'm the same as you. I feel like I got to show up and do the best possible job or create the best possible podcast episode and that if someone genuinely loves it enough, they're going to tell a friend. That's like the basis for everything that I do too.

We'll be right back just after this.

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Tell us, I don't think I officially asked you, but what is People Playbook? Just give us the high level. What do you do?

Ah, thanks very much. We like to think of ourselves as kind of your go to partner for learning, leadership and team development. And it's funny, like that's such a broad statement and we're honestly full transparency. And I think you're the type of person that I can be open and honest with. We're still figuring it out. We're just exploring, testing new things, being open to new ways of working. Some of the things that our clients are telling us. Because I just did a process recently where we got together as a team and we were thinking, gosh, we need some more clear direction. And I said, well, let's ask our clients. How do they describe us to others? You talked about the referral piece. So we got such great data and they were so generous in responding to this survey and we got about 10 or 12 responses. And one of the things that stuck out alongside some of the things you mentioned, energy, creativity, collaboration and engaging interactive workshop and programs across different fields. So we're running graduate programs, we're running sort of ideation workshops. We're doing a lot in the new manager space and manager development space. We love that area. But one of the things that came back from a former client of ours named Ashrama, I have to give him credit because he told me he was going to claim trademark or IP on it was, you know, we don't do it off the shelf, we do it together. And for me, oh, look at you.

How does that sound?

I love it. And then mine is, we don't build it together, it's off the shelf. And so.

Which is really funny because I had to work really hard to make pivot licensing off the shelf and not bespoke. So I love if you get clear on what you're trying to do, then it's a real service that you have that high touch. We build it together. And then mine is, hey, it's off the shelf. You buy it, it's ready. Here you go.

I love that contrast. You know, I will say this. If you ask me again or you invite me on, in a year's time, it probably will be different. And that's okay for sure.

And also what's nice is that when you're so high touch like that, you really learn what people need. And gosh, there's just so much that I've built that was in response to client requests that you don't want to be just totally at client's whims. But then there's also stuff that you just would never have the intel or know what was a problem or how to shape. It's so vital to work that way. And then even if you standardize things behind the scenes, because I know how you and producer Matt work, there's all kinds of beautiful systems on the back end that then it does allow you to be more high touch and hands on when you're with the clients because there's so much streamlined behind the scenes.

You've absolutely nailed that. And that is important to call out, right? Because of course we have a bank of assets, ideas and tools and methodologies that we can apply at any stage, I suppose, like a chef in the kitchen. And I know you're a foodie, you know, I'm always thinking about which are the right ingredients for this client at this time. And then it's about cooking them up in a way that is going to be most effective and useful for that client.

You know, I love a good food metaphor. I tried to bake as many of them into the free time book as I could.

Very good.

As we start to wrap up, I have another two part question for you. I say in pivot, sometimes we pivot by choice and sometimes we get pivoted or we pivot by circumstance. You, Tony, now a couple years out from making the big decision to leave your full time job, to leave the big brand the big fancy brand that is Google. Now you're a couple years in, you're riding the waves, this really wild economy that we're in and continue to be in. Looking back, what would you say to either the Tony that was worried about leaving? Like, what would you say to someone who's in the position that you were in maybe just before you made your decision? And then what would you say to someone so there's a two parter, see if you can keep up with them. And then what would you just say to somebody who was maybe laid off, like they pivoted, not by choice and they're now in this really scary position of like someone took the boat away and they're floating in the water, they go, what the heck do I do from here? So I'm just so curious, your vantage point now that you've come through, through such a wild time.

I kind of figured we'd go this direction as we close. So I think a lot of times it comes down to lack of confidence, lack of confidence, feeling like you can take a risk, be bold and make a pivot. So one of the things that I think I started to do as I was leaving, but I wish I had done more of, was to outsource confidence.

And stick with me here. Jerry. I don't mean go online and search for outsourced confidence and find a supplier. That's not what I mean. But we can sometimes get stuck on our own heads and therefore we are quite limited in how we see the world and most importantly, how we see ourselves. For so long when I was in Google, I really believed that I was a great learning designer and facilitator and doing the work that I now do. But I believe that I was only great because of Google and it was only when other folks were telling me that actually I could do this outside of Google, that I have some of the kind of the skills that would be useful in this arena that I started to believe it. I certainly wasn't going to get there myself.

I had the same thing, just 100%. I had no confidence that anyone would even want to be friends with if I didn't work at Google. So I'm just seconding that.

What you're saying, can you remember someone that gave you the confidence or an experience that for you was outsourced confidence?

Yes. I had two longtime friend tours. I was at a conference while I was on sabbatical. Pamela Slim, Charlie Gilke. I said, am I crazy to leave? They looked at me, they said, you're crazy. Not to leave.

Oh, I love that.

Proceeded to tell me why they felt that, why it was time, why I could do it, et cetera.

Oh, I love that. That's awesome. Well, shout out to them too, for doing that. And so many of us are benefiting from the work that you're doing, so, yeah, absolutely. Shout out to them too. Outsource confidence. Like, get outside your own head. Surround yourself with people that are going to help you, see you for who you are and the value that you can bring to the world outside of whatever it is you're currently doing. And I think that will help lead you to make a pivot. I haven't forgotten my second one. So this is around, especially given this, as at the time of the recording, a lot of folks have been laid off, including two of my best friends. And so this isn't a hypothetical, this is a real.

The first thing, the short answer is I think you lead with empathy. Right. And just being there and being available. I've been texting this one friend every day for the last week and a half since they got the news. And I'm just literally saying I'm still here. Much love. That's all I've been saying. Because they weren't at the stage, especially in the first few days, to even have the cognitive space to think it through.

Jenna, they're like, f you and your silver lining. I don't. There's no silver lining here. You know, if you try to say, like, oh, it's for the best. Everything happens for a reason, which I tend to see play out. Even with people who get pivoted, it's not by choice. I do tend to see them really land on their feet and land up somewhere even better for them that's more soul aligned. But that's kind of the spiritual perspective. And you're right in the moment. I don't think that's what anyone really wants to hear.

No. And they can't see it. They can't see it. Just because you're saying it doesn't mean they can see it or hear it. They're not ready. So I think empathy just being there is really important. I'm going to just basically recycle. I'm going to recycle my first response, which is outsource confidence. Similarly, I think I'm thinking about my two friends. One in particular, I'm reminding him who he is, what he's all about, where his skills lie and the value that he has to offer the world. And reminding him of that, I think is the best thing to do to help bring back his confidence so that he can eventually see the silver linings. And we talked about that online lockdown quiz, didn't we? And I told you that it went for 60 weeks during a very bleak time in the world where people were really dying. A lot of people were going through serious depressive episodes when they weren't able to socialize and they were isolated. The name of that quiz, which is still going on, we've brought it in person. We also do it online still, and it's called Silver Linings because they are there.

Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. And we've come full circle. I love that.

That was a little call back there.

I love that. I love that. And I've heard coaches refer to it as gifts in the garbage. I love the idea of silver linings of just that phrase in general. It's so cool. So if you call it a quiz, is that what in the States we would call trivia? Like a trivia night or trivia session?

Exactly, but with live music and comedy.

Oh, fun, but just better. It's like trivia night, but better. And virtual.

Well, well, lots of crack, Jenny, but I don't mean the American craic. I mean the Irish crack that we would say, meaning good times and fun. So, yeah, I must invite you along one time. You'd have a blast.

Oh, my gosh, I can't wait. We'll have to put the link in the show notes if any listeners want to join us as well. Is there a link I can point people to off the top of their head if they're just listening?

Absolutely. Give us a follow on Instagram @silverliningsquiz. And we have an online event over the Christmas break or the holiday break on the 28th. True story. We used to have this current Googler, Josh Muxon. I don't know if you've come across Josh before, but Josh, great guy, he's in sf. He actually invited his cousin and she was in college, and she would join from the swimming pool in California at like, midday, when the rest of us, it was nighttime here in this part of the world. And so listen, it's a global event and everyone's welcome.

Thank you so much, Tony. Where else can people find you if they want to learn more and keep in touch?

Yeah, I'd love to stay connected. You can get in touch at People Playbook. Manage to snag People Playbook on all of the social platforms. I think primarily LinkedIn is probably your best place to grab connection with me and the business People Playbook would love to stay in touch.

People Playbook is just such a good name. And you can subscribe to Tony's podcast. Don't forget, we gotta give the podcast a shout out, so three points wherever you're listening.

Producer Matt will be disappointed I didn't lead with that. But yes, give three points a listen. I know we've got Jenny on there and it's 30 minutes and you get lots of really good bite sized kind of leadership lessons.

So, yeah, three points and then shout out to producer Matt and bestofbelfast.org or bestofbelfast if you have an affinity for Belfast. You never know. You don't know where we're.

Who doesn't? Jenny, who doesn't have an affinity for Belfast.

I know, exactly. Well, I was just emailing with Matt saying that I gotta manifest a speaking gig in Belfast so I have a reason to come visit you guys.

Oh, well, I would love to try and make that happen for you through us. That would be so fun to collaborate on that, get you well.

Thank you so much, Tony. I'm really grateful to you just sharing your story and truly sharing the silver linings from these last few years that are so big as to no longer be linings. It's just like silver. I don't even know. Can we even call them clouds? It's like when a silver lining grows so big that it's the whole thing. What do we call it?

Silver rainbows, I guess. Just silver everywhere.

Yeah. So I don't know.

I don't know. But I'm with you and I just want to say a massive, massive thank you. Because the stuff that you're doing and the value you're putting out to the world means so much to me as a small business owner. Honestly, every episode there's all this gold. We're moving from silver to gold now. We're upgrading. So thank you for continuing to put out the stuff that you do. It means so much to people like me. So thank you.

Thank you. It doesn't get old to hear it because I've outsourced my podcast confidence to you. So getting the feedback really lets me know that to keep going. And at the time of this recording, we just celebrated 300. So I really appreciate you saying that, Tony, and for listening and to everyone else who's with us listening, it truly means the world.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to, and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always?

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