308: Pivoting in Place with Adrian Klaphaak

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It's so hard to reach out for support or just reach out at all to make connections if we aren't feeling that great about ourselves. So I really feel like part of where people get stuck is that disconnect from who they are at their best, from their gifts, from those moments when they've been thriving.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Welcome back everybody. I am so excited to be here with recurring guest star of the Pivot Podcast, Adrian Clapek. Adrian is my very first official career coach that I hired outside of Google training and leadership programs. He runs a fantastic coaching company called A Path that Fits and that includes his flagship Career Pathfinder program. At this point he's been a guest a handful of times, so we're making up for lost time because for the first six and a half years of the podcast, he was probably the number one person I coulda, shoulda woulda hat on and for some reason didn't. So with that, Adrian, welcome back.

Thank you, Jenny. Hello everyone. Good to be here again. Yay.

So we gave ourselves homework last time that we were going to be even less planful. And yet you're seeing this pattern of some people curious about how to pivot in place if you feel that you need to stay put for financial reasons or otherwise, or you're just not ready to take big risks in a recessionary environment. As we talked about in our last conversation, how do you make the most of where you are? So I'd love to throw it to you first. What are you hearing from people around this specific question?

I often start working with clients and they are unfulfilled, unhappy, want to make a change in their career, and a lot of people will think or have the idea that that kind of change is a new career either a new job, doing something similar to what they're already doing, but for an organization they're more passionate about, or doing something entirely new and different, like becoming a coach, for example. And often when we get into the process of discovering what they're good at, what they're passionate about, how they're wired, we then take those core parts of who the person is and assess how well does your existing job utilize these core parts of who you are? And how could you potentially incorporate more of your gifts, more of your passions, more of the ways that you're wired for success into your existing career? And some people will say, wow, actually, it looks like there is a lot of room for improvement here. And simultaneously, there may not be another career outside of their organization that immediately leaps out as being far more fulfilling. So some people will say, you know, wait a minute. I think actually there's a lot I could do in my existing career to improve it. Other people will say, wow, there is this new thing that I want to do that really feels like it's truly my calling. I'm so excited about it. And it's going to take a while for me, like, years for me to transition into that and build a financially supportive career in this new thing. So I need to stay where I'm at. And if I'm going to stay where I'm at while I build up this new thing on the side, then I want to make my existing career more fulfilling. How do I do that?

And as you're going through this experience right now, there are also some people who they've recently had a child or they're supporting an aging parent or some circumstance in their life means that it's really not the time to quit their job. Certainly not just if they don't have a new one lined up, but maybe even to go through that pivot process and the angst and agita that change so often induces.

That's right. Exactly right. Or there's a recession or economic conditions that are making it a lot more risky to change careers in the very present moment. And the client that I'm working with is saying, okay, maybe I do know what I want to do, but now isn't the right time for all these reasons, Jenny, that we're talking about.

I found even in the before times when I would work with companies, first of all, I was worried when I wrote Pivot that companies would not want to hire me because they'd be afraid that I'd come in, and next thing they know, all Their team members are trying to pivot out of their role, out of the company, it would create chaos. Thankfully, that's not what happened. And the most forward thinking companies that brought me in, one thing that got reinforced over and over and over again that I didn't even realize when I was writing the book, is how many successful pivots start exactly where you are. And here I had thought, oh, there's this gap, of course it's going to involve a role change, or a lot of people are angling for a promotion and staying really focused on that. Or I thought, oh, people would need to change teams. But the more work I did in companies, the more I could tell that the people that were most successful didn't actually wait for all those opportunities. They did do exactly what you said, understood their strengths and interests, doubled down on those, communicate to their manager about what projects they were most interested in. And now in hindsight, I can see that even for myself, some of the projects that were most meaningful that I still cherish to this day were not on my resume. They were not part of my full time role. It was things like starting the training team book club or helping authors at Google team transition. And those were never full time, they were never part of my role, but they gave me so much juice even while I was pivoting in place.

Right. And I think it's so common to get into a job and have this enormous list of responsibilities and tasks that you have to do as a part of your job and probably don't have enough time to do. And those are the things that have already been predetermined. But then what's happening as we grow and the environment changes, the products changes, the service changes, the market changes, our own interest changes. We have to sort of refresh how our job is shaped in order to stay current with what we're best at, with what we're most excited about. And so there usually exists this gap in any career and any job between what we're doing and what we really want to be doing. And so I think this pivot in place is an opportunity to sort of realign, to update the shape of our job, the activities, projects we work on, with who we are and what we're most excited about in any given moment.

The way that you phrase that of everything being so dynamic is exactly something I say in all my pivot keynotes. The Heraclitus line that no person ever steps in the same river twice for. It's not the same river and they're not the same person and that's what I say. Like, even if you think you're not changing every day you wake up, you're different. The company changes, the products change, the clients change, the economy changes. So exactly this almost verbatim how you put it. It's interesting how even when we think we're stuck and staying in place, that things will inevitably change sooner than later anyway. And that's kind of the good news and the bad news.

Yeah. And I think when clients reach out to us, they kind of know, right, something's off, something's shifted, something's changed. And they may not be exactly sure what it is, but they know something's off. And so I think the place to start always is like, okay, let's take a step back from what you're required to do on the day to day and look at who you are, what you're good at, what you're passionate about. And also look at what things in your job, whether Jenny, like you were saying, they're requirements or they're projects that you've taken on out of your own interest. But what things in your job do you most enjoy doing give you the most energy as well as what things do you do that you dislike that drain your energy? And then how can you reimagine a better role, a more fitting role for you? And then see, how can I create that in my existing company? And usually it involves having some challenging conversations with people and trying to really frame them as a win win, so that the direction you want to head for yourself is also good for the company, which I think you were saying, it usually is, right, that pivoting isn't this big eject and a loss of tal, but pivoting inside of a company, pivoting in place really is this sort of better utilization of the best resource any company has, which is the intelligence and gifts and interests of its people.

Yeah. And that's what I find too. It is. This is why I created Pivot, because it was so frustrating to see so many bright, motivated, brilliant people hit plateaus and not have a way to talk about that. And now the reason I wrote Pivot is we could say I'm at a plateau. Just a word as simple as that. It used to be so taboo or saying, I'm at a pivot point or I'm ready for more challenge. You know, we talked last time about Mihaly Csikszentzentmihalyi, these two levers that lead to flow, which is challenge and skill. So if you are at a plateau, but you don't want to make a massive move, you can have a simple conversation about I'd love to grow my skills in XYZ areas or I'd love to be challenged in XYZ ways. I'll also add that solving problems is usually a good way to rev up the creative juices. Again, like what is broken in the company or on your team? And I always tell people who work in big companies, start as small as you can so that the answer is yes. So if you see something frustrating or broken or bureaucratic that's annoying you, it's likely that other people are annoyed too. But instead of trying to get 100,000 person company to agree to no meeting Mondays, can you get your pod of six people to agree and can you see how that goes? And then can you measure the response and see what changes people made and report back on the success? Because when you can start small enough to get a yes, even if you're your own boss and the yes you need is from yourself, then momentum builds. And I find that the magic thing about momentum is that other people get excited about it. Because when people are pivoting in place and they wait for conditions to be perfect, they're waiting for an all or nothing bigger move, the energy tends to stagnate a little bit. Whereas when you get small yeses and you start building your snowball and even if you're staying in place, you start making things happen, taking some classes, having conversations, something about that energy is contagious and I find it does actually accelerate better outcomes.

Absolutely. I love that. I see that all the time. The small wins, the incremental change, creating momentum and then building to this larger change. And all of a sudden you're in a different career in the same company or a different experience, the same job in the same company.

Sorry to interrupt, but I have to give you an example of this because I just got to go record a podcast at LinkedIn headquarters in person where I was the guest and I ran into a woman I know named Leah Smart. Leah started an internal podcast called in the arena and it was completely a side hustle within the company, like was a passion project. She got permission to do it and to do it on company time and under the LinkedIn brand umbrella. And when I bumped into her the other day, she goes, yeah, this is my full time role now. And I just thought that is living the dream. Leah is now a full time podcaster with the support of LinkedIn at LinkedIn, she did end up moving teams to a content related team in order to do this. And I am going to have her on the show. Just got to schedule it because I want to ask her more about her process. But I saw so many people create dream jobs within companies by doing exactly that, like starting small. And I'm curious what small wins you've seen amongst your clients and broader community as well, because these examples just make my heart sing.

Yeah, I'm thinking about, I'll call this client Cara. I'm thinking about Cara, who worked for Stitch Fix and she was an engineer. And in getting to know what she's good at, what she's interested in, her strengths were in strategic, big picture thinking, creativity. She was very creative, passionate about design, psychology. And so we were thinking about how to incorporate more of those core parts of her in her role, which led her to realizing when she looked around at who's doing the most inspiring work I see in my organization, which is a great question to ask oneself when thinking about a pivot in place. She would say, the people on the product team, I'm really excited about the design of products and the work that they're doing. It fits on all these core parts of myself. I'm really excited about it. And so we started to think about, okay, how can you start to do more of that work? And it started with her reaching out to that team and having conversations, informational interviews with people who are working on the product team, and then asking if she could start attending meetings and get involved and asking about their needs and challenges and helping out where she could. And then ultimately that led to her having a conversation with her manager to express her interest in moving in that direction. I think she was also taking, maybe it was a boot camp. This was a while ago now, so I can't remember all the exact details, but I think she was also taking a boot camp in product management and product design and taking courses as well. She was learning about the science of product management. So she had things to contribute, more to contribute than just her experience in engineering management. And it all led to her eventually doing more and more of the product design and management work until a position opened up and she got that role. And so that's an example of pivoting into a new role. But that took years. So incrementally, all along the way, more and more of her engineering role was shifting into the product management, product design role. And she was elated about the whole thing. And it did lead to this larger career pivot as well. And she stated her company, Stitch Fix, the whole way through that.

And that's a good example too, of sometimes the role you will eventually have doesn't exist yet. The entire team might not exist yet. The company. You know, there's so many aspects of this that I've seen people do where you almost have to lean on a little bit of faith in the process, that if you keep following the clues, as we've talked about in previous conversations, following the clues, where's your soul guiding you? What small wins can you get? What small experiments can you try? Because I've often seen where. Yeah, like you said, it does take years. And by the time I know, maybe those of you who are listening, you're like, I don't want this to take years. You know, I'm getting impatient right now. But that it's so often the case that the role or the project that might be the proudest of your career, it just doesn't exist yet. In a way, I find it encouraging because don't get discouraged if there's not an official open job role for the thing you want to do or an official project, because so much of the movement and excitement and exciting opportunities come in ways you can't plan for. I mean, sometimes you can, but not always.

I often hear clients that won't be excited about any of the career possibilities that we discover together that I present in the process of exploring a career change. And I'll say, okay, well, why aren't you excited? And they'll say, well, what I really want to do, I don't even think it exists. It's like this kind of new thing. I wish I had a good example right now, but I don't. And then I'll say, okay, well, how do you know that isn't needed? How do you know that isn't the next big thing? How do you know this isn't the birth of a new niche? And they'll say, you know, of course, like, yeah, well, I don't really know. And so then I'll say, okay, well, let's go and explore in this direction. Start talking to people that are doing anything similar to it. As close as you can get, even though it doesn't exist, get close to it and start having conversations with those people and see what you find. And often that will lead to a discovery of something that does exist, that's adjacent to it, that provides that stepping stone, that thing that they can do and get paid for as they're creating and launching the new thing.

We'll be right back just after this.

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I've heard Steven Johnson, I think is the one who first coined adjacent possible. But then Aaron Dignan talks about it in Brave New Work. He was on the Free Time podcast, so I'll put that in the show Notes. I love this idea of the adjacent possible, just like you're saying. And so get as close as you can and then that may give you a new vantage point. It's almost like turning the corner on the mountain. You might have a different view, but you wouldn't have that until you keep walking and navigating to get around that corner. Not that mountains have corners. Like I was Fascinating. Sometimes my metaphors really break down. I get close and then a ridge and then I go no, this is floss. A ridge. Yes, a ridge. Do you feel as a business owner you've been doing this over a decade? What has been an example of hitting a plateau and purposefully pivoting in place but trying not to do anything too dramatic that would disrupt even primarily economic conditions, but maybe family life or other things?

Yeah, there have been a few for sure. And I'm curious to hear from you as well, from your decade plus. I think we're going on two decades now actually, which is crazy. But anyways, one pivot in place that comes to mind immediately for me was when my one on one coaching practice was full and then my long time coaching partner, very dear friend Daniel Fine, who joined a path that fits after a couple of years. His one on one coaching practice was full and we were saying okay, what's next? And that gave rise to me wanting to start creating the online course and group coaching program which is now the Career Pathfinder group coaching program. I started creating it in 2013. I launched it in 2014. That was a pivoting place for me because all I had done up to that point was one on one work and maybe a few small groups in person. But I had never really tried to scale what I was doing. So I looked at what is working, what do I like doing and it was guiding people through this process, this method of Pathfinding, what am I good at? What do I love? What do I need in order to thrive? And then how can I translate that into new career ideas or think about a pivot in place and evolution of my career? And then how do I know what is right and actually succeed in taking the steps and making the change? I put that all in this online course and then started enrolling people in it. And that was an amazing new evolution of my career. So that was one and then the other one, I'll say quickly, was delegating responsibilities. So realizing again and again so many times in my career, I'm doing too much. I can't focus on the things that I'm really best at. So I need to delegate the things that are draining me that I don't like doing, and then hiring the appropriate people to take on those responsibilities. And now that's one of the things that I just absolutely love. I love my team at a path that fits. We have amazing coaches, amazing operational and enrollment people, and it's such a joy to collaborate with everybody.

I love that you feel that way. That's such a rewarding place to get because sometimes delegating, I call it the delegation curve, where it can be just so much harder in the beginning than it is making your life easier, finding the right people, training them, getting into a groove, having them feel happy in what they're doing with you and staying and not leaving and having that turnover. But I love that you brought that up because you're right, that delegating has really helped me, I would say pivot in place for sure and grow in place in the sense that for me as well, when I hit a bottleneck of taking coaching clients myself, this really happened when life after college came out. My primary source of income was one on one coaching and keynote speaking. And it was exhausting because if I needed a break, it meant I had to directly press pause on my ability to earn income. And so with Pivot expanding to the team of Pivot coaches and even training Pivot facilitators who can give workshops and keynotes in my place, I don't lean on them often, but I know that they're there and that's really positive. That allowed the business itself to keep serving the need and the desire for services without me having to do it. And so it's like from the outside, the services didn't change, but the person delivering them did. And you're right that that has freed up so much mental, emotional energy and it allows me to keep doing what I feel I can do best, which is one to many communication, getting the word out, being the voice of the company and literally a voice in this case with the podcast, and then feeling assured that I don't have to deliver it all because otherwise it also creates a subconscious, almost muting effect. Like, well, if the more I communicate, the more clients and then the more busy and the more overwhelmed, some part of me subconsciously might want to put the brakes on getting the word out because I know for sure that I can handle the demand. It's a good feeling psychologically to know, okay, there's backup that if the demand grows, I've created scalable options to where I can keep doing that and not be so afraid. Of course, any big wave of interest might strain the systems, but you're right that delegating has been such a challenging but helpful way to pivot in place and grow within my role without making what looks like big changes on the outside.

Yeah, somehow when you were talking about all that, I was thinking about what holds us back from pivoting in place from making these changes. And I'm curious to ask you that question as you're thinking about what holds people back from making pivots in place. One thing that comes up for me around that topic is confidence. So I want to just plant that seed, see if it resonates with you and I can talk about it more. But I'm curious, what do you feel like holds people back from making pivots in place?

I definitely want to hear about confidence. Sometimes I think that people are genuinely part of a toxic team and their manager just sucks, for lack of a better word. I mean, most people are wonderful and have really good intentions, but not everybody does. And I think my friend Jenny Wood talked about this in the conversation she did. I'll put it in the show notes. Sometimes if you're really under the thumb of a controlling or manipulative or otherwise toxic manager, you do need to make a bigger move. And it can even be so discouraging to try to pivot in place when someone's actively ignoring you or not skilled enough to help you or coach you or do anything, advocate for you, Nothing. And that's a really tough place to be because your morale is down, you're emotionally exhausted, and it's toxic, and your body starts then kicking and screaming saying, please get us out of this situation. So I want to acknowledge that those situations are really challenging, and there are many times where it's like, make the move. You know, anything is better than the current state the other thing I think that holds people back or is a hesitation is just that they're almost holding themselves to a high standard that is hard to reach. And they think, well, I need to have my pivot all figured out first. There's no sense in doing the small stuff in place. But in reality, the pivots that are most successful, that even look very dramatic from the outside, almost always start with really tiny steps in place. And so we're just releasing that need to have all the answers, releasing the need to go all or nothing. Releasing the need for these pivots in place to be big. I always think about the metaphor of a ballerina balancing look like they're standing still, but that they have all these micro movements in their muscles that are keeping them there. And so those would be two things I would say, and definitely confidence as well. So I'll throw it over to you for the confidence piece.

What I see with confidence relates to what you're saying about toxic environments and even environments that aren't toxic but are unsupportive, or that somebody exists in a role where it's not fully using their gifts, they're not passionate about it, then it's very hard to imagine that role bringing out their best. So then they don't have as much confidence as they do have skill and ability, because there's that mismatch with the role. So I feel you and I see that. I think that it's hard to reconnect to our confidence when we haven't been thriving in our work. So usually what I'll try to do with clients is go back to times when they have been thriving in their work, when they've been successful, when they've been performing at their best, at their peak, and remember through those experiences what's possible for them when they are using their gifts, doing what they love and in supportive environments. And sometimes doing that exercise of remembering can quickly boost someone's confidence and remind them, yeah, wait a minute. When everything is aligned, I'm great, I'm engaged, I'm really good at what I do. And then there comes the confidence to have that courageous conversation with their manager or with somebody else on another team. It's so hard to reach out for support or just reach out at all to make connections if we aren't feeling that great about ourselves. So I really feel like part of where people get stuck is that disconnect from who they are at their best, from their gifts, from those moments when they've been thriving. So I try to connect them to those memories.

Yes. And that's where coaching is so helpful. Because sometimes it all becomes very foggy and cloudy, whether you're in a bad relationship at work or a bad relationship in your romantic life. I don't know. When I was in those positions, I lost my orientation. I didn't know. Am I being crazy? What's wrong with me? Am I the problem is this. Those personal development police telling me I should like, fully own my situation. Don't be the victim here. But a coach can help reflect or a therapist can help reflect. No, that's not a healthy situation you're in, you know, or here's what I see in you. Here's the good and like you're saying, helping reorient and reconnect. That's where I find third party help, even outside the company. So they're neutral. They have no attachment, they have no agenda to come in very, very handy in those moments.

It also relates to helping somebody fully take ownership of their career. I think when we are working for somebody else and there's a lot of bureaucracy, it's easy to wait somebody to assign you to another project or give you a promotion. And often that just doesn't happen. And so I think the confidence piece that we've been talking about helps people take more ownership. To say, okay, wait a minute, I know what I want to go and do. I'm the one that needs to advocate, be proactive about making that happen. So, okay, I'm gonna muster all my courage and go have that conversation. Or conversations.

We'll be right back just after this.

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The more that people are connected to what they're good at, what they're excited about and also a sense of the bigger calling or purpose or why or, like, mission that they're on. I think the easier it makes somebody able to own their path and say, like, okay, I so clearly see, like, this is what I'm here to do. I want to do this thing. So I have to have the conversation with my manager. I have to start seeking out other collaborators in this realm because this is just what I need to do. Like, it's so clear that this is who I am and what I'm about. And then things start to move from that place of confidence, clarity, ownership.

Yes. And to have the confidence to have that conversation, even if you don't have the answers, that's something I'm always reinforcing. When I give pivot sessions in companies, even to managers, it's okay to express what you're interested in and say, I have no clue what's going to come down the pipeline. Even for managers to say, to ask their teams to have career development conversations saying, I can't promise you everything right away, but I can certainly know what to keep in mind if I see new projects that cross the fold of our team, that would be a fit for you. And at least it's like playing the matching game. At least you know who you can then match things up to and draw connections for. So I find that a lot of this is like, I don't know, thinking of an Oreo cookie or something. It's like, don't wait till you have the other half of the Oreo. Like, there's plenty there with just the one side of the cookie and the filling. That's just as helpful and delicious than having this perfect assembled sandwich of here's what I'm good at and here's what I want to do, and here's the answer. And now can you help me get there? That's a lot to ask of any one conversation or any one person. So even putting the word out to your network and saying, this is what I've come to learn about myself, these are the types of projects, or let's say you're a freelancer. The freelance work. I'm most excited about the clients. I love serving. If you hear of anything, let me know. I would take the pressure off to have all the answers and have it all figured out before you even have the conversation.

I love that. I think that is so, so true. And a huge obstacle to making a pivot in place, to pursuing a new calling. That idea that we have to figure it all out before we take Any step, it really holds people back. So I love that you're speaking to that. And also, there is, like, a lightness that you were talking about it with. Like, it's not so serious. It's not life or death. We're going to be okay one way or the other. Like, this may be the thing, in fact, that I go and do for the next five, ten years, or maybe not, or maybe I think it is, and I head in this direction and I start doing the work and I realize, actually, I don't really love it. So wait a minute. What did I learn? What's more interesting from this vantage point that I want to try next? And we realize, like, everything doesn't fall apart when we try something and we don't absolutely love it if it doesn't work out exactly as expected, we can again pivot from there. I think it's actually easier often to pivot again once we've already made a pivot because we realize it's not that hard. It's okay. It works out. I can do it again and again and again and again. And really, I think that's what a truly authentic, inspiring, fulfilling, successful career is. It's a result of all these little pivots in this continual evolution that we were talking about, of continuing to seek out. How do I best apply my strengths to problems, like you were saying, Jenny, that need solving, to real needs in the market, toward my, you know, deepest passions and calling. And, you know, that's many, many, many pivots over decades, usually.

Well, that's always what I say. The big secret is we're always pivoting and we're in a continual state of pivot. There's no there, there. And again, this is the good news and the bad news. Of course, sometimes we have more dramatic moves, but the most successful pivoters, it's a continual practice and exploration and tuning in. So I know you have a ton of great exercises around this, especially in Career Pathfinder. If you could leave listeners with one small next step or one experiment as they go about the next week or two, what would it be?

Good question. I think the absolutely lowest hanging fruit. If you're thinking about how do I improve my job, how do I pivot in place would be to look at what are the work activities that you get most joy, most flow, most energy from that you just love doing, and ask yourself, how can I make those activities a bigger part of my job? How do I expand upon those things that I'm already excited about because they're already There it's kind of like the 80, 20. What's the 20% that is giving you 80% of the fulfillment, the success, the joy. And how do you then expand that 20% into a larger number? I think that's the lowest hanging fruit.

Well, that's perfect timing because I just recorded an episode for free time or it just came out on the low hanging watermelon which is like is there a fruit so gigantic that it's right in front of your face and it's almost so big you're not seeing it. Of a low hanging watermelon that you can pick pluck off the vine? Because I made it up. See, I told you. These mixing metaphors.

No, it's great. It's like Sam Godin's purple cow or something. You know the low hanging watermelon.

Yeah, exactly. I think of myself as a bit of a surrealist with my metaphors, like the kind of Dali esque, you know, what's a watermelon doing in the tree? So my dad always told me when he was editing my books that he calls them Jennyisms because I'll kind of combine two figures of speech and then make a third new way. I'm going to give the homework that's a pivot from our conversation of pivoting in place that sometimes when I'm annoyed with my work but I don't want to make bigger changes, I focus on adding value for other people. And specifically by organizing events even virtually that I know are going to make people happy or add value to their lives. So that was creating the book club when I first got to Google. A small book club for my tiny training team, maybe 20 of us. Sometimes I'll do an author mastermind call where we brainstorm book marketing ideas. I will schedule a call with a few friends or I'll reach out to one person and I'll do a 30. 30. I write about that and pivot like 30 minutes brainstorming for you on whatever you want. 30 minutes for me getting those kinds of things on the calendar. They always just give me a warm fuzzy feeling because I've helped someone else move something they care about forward. And so when all else fails, if I can get people together or even solve a problem that can happen on your team as well, like find something that's annoying you or some small problem that you can solve or fix. That can be so satisfying and just it's a good jumping off point for creating pivot in place momentum.

Amazing. That made me think of one last thing. I know we're wrapping up. Yes, but I don't know how. We didn't specifically talk about relationships as a part of a pivot in place, because relationships are what make it all happen. So if you have no idea even what to do next, I would say go, start talking to the people that you like that bring you joy just based on the connection. Talk to the people that you think are doing interesting work. But investing in your relationships is a huge part of getting access to new opportunities, of getting new ideas, and also just feeling fulfilled in the process. It's like a basic human need for connection. And if we don't have good connections with people at work where they've gotten a little strained or we're out of touch, then it's going to be less fulfilling, even if we love the content of our job. So relationships are core to fulfillment as well.

Thank you for adding that in. I'm so glad you did. And yeah, sometimes that even takes the pressure off everything else to have good conversations. And it's like, okay, I mean, that could go for any other area of life, but it's almost like part of pivoting in place is double down on the things that are not work. It's kind of counterintuitive, but yeah, go to more coffees, go to more classes, dance classes, language classes. Like, just do more stuff that isn't work so that you remember you are not your job. It's okay to go through phases, go through a dip, not know what to do, not be ready to make big changes, not want to take any risks. Great. I don't want to say set it and forget it, but you can kind of coast a little bit. Give yourself permission to coast a little bit while you refill some of the cups. Some of the other areas in the wheel of life, as CTI taught us.

Yes, that is a perfect place to end.

Thank you so much, Adrienne. I always love jamming with you and seeing where these take us. Where can people find you if they want to keep in touch?

You can find me@apathatfits.com and thank you so much, Jenny. It really is so fun to be in this ongoing exploration conversation about pivoting together.

Likewise. Thank you. I know pretty soon I'm gonna make us a Spotify playlist of all your guest appearances on EventPod. Thank you so much, Adrian and big thanks for listening, everybody.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter at ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.

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