31: Illuminate - How to Lead a Movement with Nancy Duarte

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What'S Next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of the Only Move that Matters Is yous Next One, which launches in September of 2016.

In this podcast, I talk with peak performers to reverse engineer their most successful career. Pivots interview experts on what it takes to be agile in a rapidly evolving economy and open the kimono on what happens behind the scenes of my book and business. You can learn to capitalize on risk, fear and uncertainty as the doorways of opportunity. My promise is that you will leave every episode with practical tips, tools and tactics. For show notes from this episode, visit jennyblake Me Podcast.

If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Pivot Podcast. I am so excited to be interviewing one of my heroes today, Nancy Duterte. Nancy, your books have been bestsellers for many years. Slidology was the first one I ever encountered. Resonate became my go to book for writing every single speech since I got my hands on it and even coaching others to do the same. And then the latest book to launch is called Ignite Change through Speeches, Stories, so ceremonies and symbols. And Nancy shares how her company, Duarte Inc. Has survived and thrived for over 25 years through this framework and how other companies can pivot and make their way through the innovation cycle as well. So Nancy, welcome. I'm thrilled to have you.

Thank you.

What inspired you to write this book?

Well.

We have been doing presentations for years and we would get calls. Hey, I have a talk. It's due in a couple weeks and about three years ago it was like, hey, I have a talk. It's going to change the world. I'm starting a movement, right? And we were like, this is so interesting that people are starting to think about the long game and think about their ideas, capacity to actually create change. And so I've always known that businesses, possibly organizations that are constantly transforming, may follow a story plot because that's what stories are about, is transformation. So if you look at these organizations that are transforming or an idea that's going to transform people in mass. We started to look at movements, both social and business movements. We started to look at anything we could get our hands on that was a. That kind of transcended space and time and was vast. Like an epic. An epic tale is vast. And so that's what we did. We jumped in, did a ton of research and we've found kind of the three act structure of transformation and obviously it's in storytelling. And so putting this body of work out there was hard. I mean this was, I do it major work and a minor work at the same time. So this is my first major work since Resonate and that came out 10, six years ago. I can't even believe it's been that long. So I've put two minor works out between now and then. But this is my first, my next major work and put so much heart and love and insight. God, the amount of insight we had writing this book was changed me. It actually changed me. Very poignant for me to write this book. Yeah.

How have you changed since you started writing to now?

Well, this is what's so fun. Well, okay, so for number one, you, you can actually see me get better as a writer in all my books. Stronger. This particular book, my co author is my chief strategist and she's been a really strong writer for 20 years. Whereas I'm like, I'm a learned writer. I don't write all day as my career. And so my writing skills on this book completely I'm competitive. So I felt like, whoa, what she just wrote was so smart. I have to make mine smarter. So I grew as a writer, I grew as a leader. The process of writing this book follows that story structure. Myself, my own organization was going through change and Patty and I would lease a working room over at Sheraton over here in Sunnyvale. And there was times we would just sit there for a week and just work through stuff. And with my own organization going through change, there were just about three of them poignant moments where we're writing and writing. We're like, oh my God, this is so amazing. The concepts here are just mind because it's based in story. And. And then we would say, well, does it apply to what we're going through at our own shop? And sometimes I would just dribble little tears out my eyes because it was so potent. Like I wasn't even. It was meta to be like writing this deeply riched research book, pull back, apply it to my own situation and have These moments where it felt like as a leader, the scales fell off my eyes, you know, and I was like, oh, my God. I was about to do a talk on Monday, and when I look at my own body of work, I was about to say the wrong thing. Like, you know, it was just meta. We had these moments where. And she's one of my big leaders here, and she's an empath. I would say I'm a heartfelt leader, but I'm not as self aware as Patti is. And an empath is defined as someone who has supernatural gift of empathy. Like, supernatural. Patti has this supernatural gifting that I don't have. And so I think it makes it a different book where it's infused with her gift and infused with my gift, and it's a different book should either of us have written it alone. So very fun. Very, very fun to write this book.

I call those truth tears. When something is so true, you cry, but you're not sad. It's more like how joyful to really have something resonate that deeply.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's incredible.

It was really something.

It's very. I love hearing you describe the shift from resonate, which has influenced and inspired so many people who have to give a presentation or write a talk. And I love how that has exposed, expanded now to what you call them, torchbearers, people who are holding the torch to lead a movement. And that this book is really about leadership and leading groups and organizations through the innovation cycle and the change process. And we'll dig into a lot of your structure soon.

But I want to read a quote first about torchbearers, because I know that the people listening to this pivot podcast are torchbearers, and if they're not yet, it's like, right around the corner. So I just have to read this because it's so beautifully written. You say the torchbearer's calling. The future is a formless void, a blank space waiting to be filled. And then a torchbearer envisions a new possibility. That vision is your dream, your calling, and it burns like a fire in your belly. But you can't create the future alone. You need travelers to come along. Yet the path through the unknown is dark and unclear. You have to illuminate the path for travelers. Torchbearers communicate in a way that conquers fear and inspires hope. Some say being a torchbearer is a burden. Some say it's a blessing. Either way, those who light the path are the ones who change the world.

Aw. Isn't that pretty? Yes.

Nancy, this is like a poster. I want it on my wall.

Oh, I love that.

What I love is just the way you acknowledge the future is a formless void, and change is hard. And I'm cur. Curious how you came to the language around torchbearer and travelers. And then we'll get into the venturescape.

Yeah, it's funny, you know, we. We did a first pass of the book and had. We had so many poignant moments on the book. But anyway, very trusted, smart friend was like, I expected more from Duarte, right? In the first pass of the book, we called the people troops, right? Because we didn't want this to be like, people thinking we're talking about internal change movements or, you know, because it's social movements, it's client movements, customer move behavior movements, like, whatever is your movement. And we decided that there's something really special about the bearer of a torch, because situations where you need a torch, usually it's like a cold, clammy cave or something, but it's dark, and you can't see very far away. And the torch only casts a bit of a shadow, right? It only dissipates a little bit of the darkness. It's not like a searchlight that shines far. And that's what a leader does. What they do is they. They shine enough light into the future to say, this isn't so scary, is it, guys? We can do that, you know? But the bearer part is something where it's like, I think leaders are called, but not everyone answers the call. And everyone's called, I think, right? Everyone's called to lead something, and many refuse. So the ones that do decide to take this mantle on and be a bearer of a torch, it comes with a lot of responsibility. We looked a lot at how things are created. We looked at actually the creation story for some of that language, because we believe everything's a formless void. Even the earth was right until. Until someone spoke a different future. And that's where we were like, wow, how much happens with the spoken word is so powerful. In fact, you can. I challenge you to find a movement that didn't start with an impassioned plea, a moment where someone spoke something so powerful or so revolutionary or so scary, you know? And that's how most movements and to be the people in the impassioned plea business, you know, we were like, you know, what we have seen for 27 years, people take something that didn't exist and make it become reality. And that's this Kind of the burden or the calling of the torchbearer travelers. We were like. It was when we really got into Lord of the Rings, Lord of the Rings, we looked at, looked at Gilgamesh, we looked at Beowulf, we looked at epic length tail structures. An epic length tale basically transcends multiple generations and covers lots of space and time. Right? And that's what you want your organization or your idea to be. Something happens to you, you want someone to pick up your torch and keep your idea going. So how is it that these structures of the epic tale. And it was kind of when we went back to JRR Tolkien's Lord of the Rings that we were like, yeah, Frodo, there's just, it's just him and his buds and they're just traveling, you know, we were like, oh, travelers. Like that's what it is. He, he didn't ask to be the bearer of the ring. He didn't ask. He was like, I want, you know, it was, it was given to him, it was passed to him, and then he needed travelers there with him. He needed his friends, he needed the ones that he knew would, you know, and he was a leader. And that's when so the whole thing just kind of came together in a really beautiful way. And that was kind of rambly to your answer, but we really wanted it to not, because the publisher we talked about, they kept saying, no, change it to the word team. It's teams. You're the team. I said, no, no, no.

You're also luring people. You're also luring strangers to come and say, sacrifice your time and your money to make this nonprofit become successful. You're asking for a volunteer army. That's not your team. It's not your team. You know, and so we had to kind of fight hard for some of the language because it was important to us to make sure everyone felt that leading is what they're called to do.

You know, I love that distinction and lure is such great language because you're right. And I love that it speaks the truth about we don't own people. And even when someone is technically on your team, at your company, that travelers to me connotes co creation and that people are there ultimately by choice. And that like Lord of the Rings, we're kind of walking side by side. And maybe I'm the one with the torch, but I'm inviting you to come with me. Not commanding you the way it would be if I would use troops.

Exactly. And that's. That's right. And as people Were like, whoa, your language is so militaristic. When we were using troops and we couldn't think of what else to call it, but. And then we just had this moment where it's like, oh, my God, they're my travelers. Sounds so much like, let's go on a journey together. Let's pack our bags and go. You know, it's just different mindset. And I think traditional leadership is command and control.

And that's why troops just didn't work.

I also. I can't stand the word followers, actually. When people. Or fans. When people write to me and they say, maybe your fans, or maybe you could put this out to your followers. And I cringe at either word. I call them community. That's the best word that I have found. But also fellow travelers, because. Oh, I just don't like the idea of.

The soapbox. Like, someone up high, I don't know. But, I mean, of course, a torchbearer, in a way, is taking on that role, and we don't want to shirk it. You want to own it, but.

Well, what's cool about fire is you can pass it on. Right. And it is about spreading a flame. Yeah. So it's not. It's also about shared responsibility, too. Right.

Yeah.

Frodo never would have made it without his buddies, you know?

So true. One thing I find you do a great job of highlighting in the beginning. So when we think about starting a movement, a lot of people would assume it's the start of a movement and beginning, and there's a lot of adrenaline and excitement. What you highlight is the innovation cycle or the S curve. What do you do when you're a couple years in and things are not so exciting or there's a change that people are resisting a little bit? Can you just share what the S curve or the innovation cycle is and why having to make these. These icon pivot are such a natural part of any movement's process?

Yeah. Because the book is about speeches, stories, ceremonies, and symbols, it felt natural for us to pick a symbol from the collective business consciousness that people are totally familiar with. So it could get us part of the way there. Right. So find a familiar symbol that we could use to explain what we're trying to do. And the S curve of innovation. I don't know. I don't remember the first time I saw it, but it's an XY axis with an S on it, and the S can go on for infinity. And.

It'S fascinating to me because when I first started my business, I Have a high school degree. I mean, that's my full confession. And yet I run a $20 million business in the Silicon Valley that thrives. I am the American dream. And I saw the S curve. I read hbr. That's how I got my mba. I read HBR for about five years, nonst cover to cover, and somewhere in there was this S curve. And I thought, okay, I can't stand still. I have to innovate. So what happens is at the tail of the S, you start and then the S goes up the slope and you grow and you mature. And then what happens is if you stay in a state of maturity, just like a standing pool of water, it'll turn into foul rot if you don't keep infusing it with a fresh stream of ideas. So then no sooner do you arrive at the top of the S that you have to infuse your organ organization with new and more innovation. And I remember seeing this and I, I've been accused by some employees of loving chaos and creating change just for change sake. And I'm hoping, you know, that's not the truth, but in 27 years, my own organization has been through five clear S curves of innovation where we, you know, jumped ahead to the, I made the company jump ahead to the next curve. And I think that's why we're still around. And a lot of, lot of agencies are gone or they've been bundled into conglomerates or they're getting bought by public companies. Like, my whole space is in chaos right now, yet we're thriving. So I think that that's part of it. And every leader needs to be standing on the edge of that formless void we were talking about and being like, how do I make my future certain and where do I need to go to do that? And that's the leader's job, is where do I need to stand and be in the future and how do I communicate it in a way that makes people want to go there with me?

Right. I love how you say change is hard and risky. In order to guide your travelers toward that future, you have to anticipate their reactions by imagining each step along the path as they might experience it. Because like you said, as the leader or torchbearer, you might have this vision. You might love chaos, you might see exactly where things need to go. But getting people along for that ride is different.

I know. And ones that do take risks, right? Sometimes we don't make the right decision all the time. And how do you keep the trust when you don't right. And then at least you have stories of saying, I did this before and I really screwed up, so I won't screw up this time. Let's go. So it is fascinating to lead.

Part of your genius is breaking things down into systems and structures. And this is why I love your work.

I'm so happy you see that. That's how I feel.

Y. Oh, my goodness. That's why resonate is such a dream. I think once a week I'm using this framework of the current state and the new bliss. And, you know, it's just brilliant. So let's talk about the Venturescape, because you've actually broken this down and you're saying, hey, torchbearers know what to expect. There are five stages, six if you count the last one. So can you briefly walk us through the Venturescape? And then I'll sort of jump in at random points after that?

Yeah, so I was just kind of walking through the S curve. The Venturescape follows that. We were looking for a symbol that could be a guide into the future. And so basically there's five stages that when you break it down, it creates a three act structure, which is basic storytelling. And so as a leader of transformation, you're trying to. People will be changing. And so stories are the greatest vehicle for transformation. Telling stories of transformation. So the three act structure goes like this. The first act has two stages to it where there's the dream and that's when the leader needs to create a moment of innovation. And then the leap, that's where everyone jumps in and makes a commitment. That's when you need to create a moment of decision. So that's the beginning. You cast a dream and you get people to commit. That happens quickly or it should happen quickly. And then the middle of the story is where all the action is. Just like in the movies, right? That's where the big fast car chases are. And somebody hits the side of your car and you tumble out and you accidentally impale yourself on the way while you're running. And then you. Then you still have to kill an alien and the girl is suffering. So you have to make all this, you know, really awful things happen after you've jumped in. That's the fight phase. When you're leading during the fight phase, you have to instill your teams with a moment of bravery. So the middle is fight and then climb. So no sooner do you have almost this unrepairable wound that you have to climb out of this big cavern and you don't know if you're going to make it. And it's this moment in storytelling where you have to make a recommitment. Oh, my God. Is the sacrifice worth the reward? Why am I doing this? And you make a recommitment, and you're like, can I keep going? So in the climb phase, the communicator needs to create moments of endurance.

Then there's the resolution, the story resolution, which is you've arrived. And that's when you need to create a moment of reflection and you need to reflect on what just happened. So again, the beginning is dream Leap. The middle is the scary part, and that's fight, climb. And the resolution is that you've arrived, and then no sooner do you arrive that you start all over again. So what's interesting to me is the middle, which is fight and climb. Even though we put it sequentially, actually it's really kind of not. It's like, Fight, climb. And it switches back. Fight, climb, fight, climb, climb, climb, fight, climb, fight, climb. So picture it like zigzagging. When you climb up a really tall, a steep mountain, you can't. Well, some people can take the face of it, but those are specialists. But most of us have to do switchbacks to make it up the climb. So that's what it is. That's why it's like, fight, climb, fight, climb, fight, climb. And sometimes that goes on for a long time. And then you arrive, and the leader needs to be very cognizant of how their travelers are feeling. So what this model is this staged model, it's an empathy model. It's a model where the leader can be like, oh, my gosh, I can see why my people are behaving the way they are because they're feeling like that. And then the model gives you the right speeches, stories, and ceremonies to do in that stage. So we've come up with the plot lines for all the different stories that need to be told in the stage, all the different speeches and all the different ceremonies. And there's a motivating story and a warning story. So that's why there's these kind of this positive resolution and cautionary tale. Because the emotions during each stage very polarizing. Some people are energized and some people are entrenched. They don't want to do it. And you need to be very cognizant of the emotional stance of your travelers, so you deliver the right message at the right time.

For those of you who can't see the book, there's also cartoons, there's torches, swords, dragons. It's really fun. It's a really great graphic that illustrates this. What you just said is fascinating to me because you talk about emotional polarity and at every stage, just as you said, giving options the way to the new hope for the new future. And also, worst case scenario, what would happen if they don't. And I found that interesting because I probably tend to sugarcoat and just focus on what's possible. So can you talk a little more about that?

Well, that's the new bliss, right?

Polarity.

Yeah. Yeah. What it is is that Western cultures are really used to. All of our movies have a conclusion, and it's a comedy. A comedy simply means that it resolved in a positive way. But life's not like that. Life is not like that. You could put a market out there and it fails. How's that? How's that a happy ending? And so we need to tell those stories and use them to warn people. If we do it like this, remember last time and that product failed, we need to not fail. Right. And those are the stories we rarely tell. So that's why, you know, in the dream phase, you may need to tell and neglect the call story. In the leap phase, you may need to tell it, ignore the reward story. So we have all these different types of stories that aren't so positive. Like in the climb phase, if you're suffering, you need to say, don't you remember this lose the way story? When we lost our way last time, let's not do that again. So we have all these structures and plot lines that you need to use to tell the right thing at the right time. And so, yeah, not everything in life ends the way it does. Other cultures are maybe more used to it. Asian cultures, most of their stories are inconclusive. Like Bob Hollywood movies, you get the boy and the girl at the end of the movie, they lean in to kiss each other. And then it cuts before they kiss. Right.

Just.

They're used to life. Not always. You never really know exactly how this is going to go yet Western cultures want closure. And so that's why it's actually the purpose for putting ceremonies in here is because of wanting. People want closure. And that's what ceremonies do. It's a way to close each stage or phase you're in so you can be ready for the new.

That was such an important highlight that I'm guessing a lot of people, just from my individual coaching that I do with clients, one of the most helpful things I can do is help them celebrate or debrief something. And so I Loved that ceremonies were in here. And what's interesting is you do recommend them at every stage. And some ceremonies are to mourn a loss or a failure. They're not always celebratory.

Right, right. And the research we did around ceremonies was in the Rites of pa. If you look back anthropologically at some of the earliest artifacts you can find from cultures, they were used for ritual. So even earliest man had this need for, you know, ritually ending something and beginning something new. And so the Rites of Passage, believe it or not, is a three act story structure also where there's this likable person, they go through a ceremony and they declare themselves changed. So businesses are like people. And you think about businesses today, they're bigger than most historical kingdoms that we obsess about anthropologically. Like, they're huge, they're vast. Yet we don't do a great job at creating these coping mechanisms that collective people need, like socially raising up the collective consciousness about, hey, this has ended and this has begun again. We're just not very good at that. And so that's why some of this language we're trying to insert, it can't be cheesy. I mean, you can do a ceremony and everybody just revolts against it. It has to be something that rises up from the culture and you help facilitate a need that they have as a collective to see something end and something new begin. That's what storytelling is about. The protagonist changes and something in them ended and they ended up a better character for having gone through these hardships. And that's what organizations need to do at scale.

I don't remember if this was told as part of a ceremony or not, but the giraffe story from your organization.

Yeah.

Can you share that briefly? Because it made me smile. And then there was a. I don't have it right in front of me. There was like a great pun that you then turned the giraffe into something ongoing. Will you share that?

So this is a good example of a ceremony that the culture makes that a leader can squelch or a leader can amplify. So years ago I got. I think it was 12 years ago, one of my designers said, we do a staff meeting every Monday. And she said, I just. I feel like I need a program where I can. I want to start a program where I can honor other people who help me. And so she went to the local Costplus and bought this little tiki thing. And it was terribly scary looking, but she wanted to start this program. So she gets up and she Says, hey, we're going to do this program where I want to pass this along, say something positive like, hey, John jumped in and helped me meet my deadline, so I didn't have to stay late. Thank you. And then you pass it to them. So the first person it was passed to gets. His name's Kevin. He gets this thing, and he comes in my office, he goes, I love the program and everything, but I think this thing is demon possessed. It's looking at me with red, beady eyes. I can't stand it. And I'm like, oh, my God. So I went to her and I said, oh, we love the program. Could you run back to Cost plus and go get a little different token and maybe one that doesn't look vexed, you know? And so she went, got a giraffe and a little wooden giraffe, and it would sit on the edge of the table. So we passed the draft, and we did it for 12 years. Just passed the draft, every staff meeting. So this place is just covered with wooden metal, everything, like little stones painted like a giraffe. Like, it's really kind of fun. Just everywhere. They're just splattered everywhere. So. So about two years ago, when we were going through this really big. In the middle of this really big change initiative, I thought writing a book about symbols. Are there symbols or ceremonies I do in my own organization? I'm like, oh, my God, we pass a giraffe. What a symbol.

I wonder what a herd of giraffes is called. What happens when you herd a bunch of giraffes together? A herd of giraffes is called a tower. And I thought that was so beautiful, right? Because I needed a symbol for us to band together and be strong. Because the organization was asking my staff to change a lot, we had to become a little. We had to put in systems into a creative. A system is bureaucracy, and they rage against that, right? And so it was a pretty big shift. And I thought, that's so beautiful. I want to take this symbol we have and make it our official mascot, for starters, and let the team know that a team of giraffes is called a tower. But then we took this actual ceremony that we'd been doing for years called pass the giraffe. And we called it girafformations.

Kind of amplified the whole thing, and people just. It happens spontaneously. Like, someone will see a giraffe stuffed animal and just hand it to someone else, and it's so lovely. It is a. It's like a. It's like A, you know, gift that keeps giving. We, we wrapped our values around it. Like we have a value that we'll always value each other's differences. And that's like the spots on a giraffe, you know, and have a merry heart. And the heart of a giraffe is two times larger than any other animal, whatever. So we can tie some of this stuff back into even some of our beliefs and stuff like that. So it's been really, really fun. And it's just everywhere. I mean, people sometimes walk in, they're like, joanna, what's your fixation with giraffes? Because they're just splattered everywhere. It's kind of fun.

It's such an amazing organic evolution. Girafformations. I mean, who can't use some girafformation? Every night we did, we took like.

A canning jar and we filled them with these. I don't know where my marketing gal found them, but she found these little half inch sized giraffes. And we packed these little plastic giraffes into these little jars and we explained to our clients what we do. And it's so fun because we get pictures from clients of the little giraffes in other people's office, so they start passing giraffes too. It's really cute.

So great. It's so playful and fun. But like you said, such a powerful symbol that has even grown in meaning from that initial spark early on.

Yeah, it's fun.

You talked earlier about the Venturescape and the fight climb, fight climb. And I think traditionally we think, okay, that's all happening in the outer world. The business is fighting climbing, going through ups and downs, and dealing with product launches and systems internally. One thing you also highlight is that travelers also take an inner journey. And the inner journey can also follow this Venturescape. And that there are times where your travelers, you say, will be faced with making a decision to keep going and stay committed or refuse to continue and become resilient. Can you talk about the inner growth and fight climb, fight climb that might occur?

Yeah, yeah. So it is true. So like in a movie, let's just say this so totally likable person like Luke Skywalker, stuck on a sandy planet, he decides to jump into the journey. So not only does he have to fight aliens and kill, you know, but then you realize, oh my gosh, this person person's changing on the inside too. It's either their moral character, their beliefs. Maybe the belief was, I can't do that. That's bigger than I am. And then they realize I can change the world like they do, go through the hardships, also transform them in their heart. And that's the same thing that happens in organizations. You are asking people to work harder, work longer, get this initiative passed, whatever that is. And they're going through an inner struggle. And you have to really be tapped into what's. Yeah, those external activities you're asking them to do are great and they might get them done. But what's the condition of the heart? Are they doing it grudgingly? Are they transforming? Are they growing? Are they becoming stronger in their character or in their skills? And you need to really be tapped into that because there's always an inner and an outer journey. And the condition of their heart is what will keep them going. If you ask them to do it again, as long as they're changing on the inside, they'll keep making change on the outside. Outside.

It's so important too to recognize that it's not a linear path on the inside either. I love what you said about as the organization or the Torchbearer and the travelers, whatever kind of movement it is, are going through the outer world events that. To recognize how much transformation is really happening on the inside as well.

Yeah, yeah. Just be cognizant of it. I think leaders, we have such big objectives. We're like, oh, I got to get this done. Got to move the. And we. We forget. We forget about the heart of the Travelers.

One of the sections of the book that I took screenshots, I was reading this while traveling Bash from South by Southwest on the plane and so I took screenshots instead of. Normally I'd be scribbling notes furiously. I loved the story of your 2014 company pivot. You did a big reorg. The interactive exercises and team building that you did was just so creative. And I would love for you to share with everyone listening because I think anyone with. With a team of any size can learn so much about even in just a span of a few days, how you walked people through, got them on board with the change.

Yeah, it's funny because that we read actually how it was kind of launched is we read. I had the whole company read Creativity Inc. The year before and that's CEO of Pixar, Ed Catmull wrote that book and they had something called Notes Day. It was something that they. Notes. Creating notes about a film is just this thing that was already in their culture. And so they decided, what if we turned that process on ourselves and did our own process on our own company and they had Notes Day. Well, I met Ed after that happened, and he's like, well, one word of caution is notes Day turned into Notes year because they're trying to improve the organization, and some of it can't be done in a year. And so we went into our own kind of moment, our own moment where we turned ourselves internally on ourselves, decided to just work really hard on creating change in our own organization. So we made Shop Day. Everyone wore shop aprons, and we did, like, schoolbook signings. You could take a silver pen and sign each other's shop day aprons. But the whole day was designed in a way that let people first. The week. Two weeks before, we let everyone vent, we facilitated these meetings where people got to say everything crappy about the company. That was hard. That was scary. They got to say everything crappy. And there were like. There were a couple people who'd only worked there a week.

Did they think out loud or in anonymous? An anonymous.

Well, no, out loud. I. You know, we're trying to build a culture of candor. And that was. That was the part that was so important. So we had to actually train my employees who were facilitating to just not react and just welcome everything. Right. Welcome. Okay.

Were you there? Were you in the room when that was happening?

No, no, no. In fact, I wasn't even on the team that reviewed them, and they did package them up and send them to me. And I had to be in a very contemplative space to read it. Right? Because every wants to build a company where everyone wants to work there. Right. And it was hard. Most of it, I knew. But what that really was was one of the ceremonies you have to do is the cleansing ceremony. So we'd been quite a while in this change initiative. People were tired. I had some questionable leaders. You know, I had. Some Stuff was broken. And I knew, and they needed that. They needed to let off steam and feel safe letting off steam, Right? So we took all these insights and we piled them into. We categorized them and piled them in to different initiative. Eight different things that we wanted people to brainstorm how to solve. Now, what's interesting was one of the people that had only been here a week said, oh, yeah, they did this at my last company. What a disaster. You know, leaders were reactionary. They were, like, punitive. They were screaming at everybody. And he goes, it was so nice to feel safe in a new, safe environment. I was like, well, you know, this is new behavior. So we're trying to let everyone feel safe being honest. And it was great. I mean, we classed everything into eight things that need to be solved. We broke everyone into eight teams. All day long they got to work on how do we solve this. What was so funny is then we had to have these cathartic breaks. Like we would go out into the back parking lot and do like life size Rochambeau and have these big competitions, let everybody scream and clap. And then we did these communal art projects so everyone could feel like they made a mark on one of the wall. So we did these little interstitials, right? And then at the end of the day, this is so fun. We had a competition. So every team had to nail their insights into a two minute pitch and then the whole company would vote on which three initiatives we wanted to do this year. It was so funny. Everyone got so into it, they started little internal marketing campaigns. There were these beautifully designed posters all over. When in the history of mankind, when you're leading this big change and asking for a volunteer army to jump in and help do something, do people ask for their initiative to be picked? It was hysterical. So these pitches, we voted on the pitches and then those teams led those big initiatives and it was all volunteers and it was not my executive staff. We didn't want any executives or managers necessarily. Driving turned out amazing. It turned out so amazing and it's so fun that you, like, we threw that one in as like a last minute thing and we're getting a lot of good feedback on that. And people are like, how you do, does it end? How does it end? Right. How do you arrive now? Because you're kind of a cliffhanger and I'm happy to say that, you know, we're, we're doing some really clever, interesting things that have, like I said, our agency is still standing and so many aren't. And so we actually are thinking about dropping two more chapters about our own transformation and the things that we've done, the decisions we've made. Because Shop Day, now, that was the first one, we had a, another one and it was so profound. I've never experienced anything like the second Shop Day. And I think it'll be really good for people to hear what we're still doing and, and what our new vision is. So to come off this really difficult transformation. And then this year I launched the new S curve and people were so moved by my visions. People. I got a standing ovation and some people cried like, how, when does that happen at a company vision presentation, right? Especially one that has just been through the biggest fight, Climb, fight, climb by climb they've ever been through. And so it's just, it's fun. I mean I kind of step back in now I'm running the organization. I haven't done that for about 10 years and it's been fun to re imprint my heart on the organization. So operationally I've been removed. I've just been like the leader, the ambassador, the thought leader and jump back in and tweak things and see results from it has been really, really fun.

That's incredible. I feel like shop day could be its own minor work as you call it, like a whole case study walk through. Because I, I'm with you. I think two lost chapters or secret chapters that people can check out on the process and okay, yeah.

Some people were like, what if our customers knew that we went through this? It's like, well I, you know, we're human. So we put it out there.

Like I said, although it was a Kindle, it was as if I couldn't take notes fast enough because we used to do a lot of team building and internal stuff at the Google and we were always looking for creative ways. And I think so many companies want to do team building and engage people, but how do you do it in a way that's not cheesy and it's not just like a tree climbing retreat?

Okay, this is a slight tangent, but I'm curious because one of the three initiatives. So the three initiatives were resourcing, recognition and remote work. Okay, so this is why it's a little bit of a tangent. Remote work is such a hot topic and it's somewhat controversial and I can imagine as a leader and even different tech companies in the valley have different stances on this, but it's something a lot of people are asking for. So were you a little nervous when that task force came about? And I'm curious what Duarte Inc. What your stance is on remote work and what came out of that work stream specifically.

Oh, it's so funny. You know, now that I think about it, we should probably publish what came out of that. That's funny because we, we did come up with really interesting initiatives. So there was a lot of department around this because we are a service business so we track our time. Right. And you can actually see that the people that come into the office actually log more time than those that don't. And that's interesting to me, you know, and it's just a piece of data. So this cross section team, we made sure it was, you know, part remote, part local. We, they, I should say. And one of the gals who kind of pioneered the whole thing works remotely for a couple days a week. They decided that there's a difference between somebody who's a full time remote worker, permanent in Colorado like a full time remote and people who are given permission to work remote certain amounts of times a week. So there's a whole lot of language we wrote about what's the criteria? How good of a self manager do you need to be? And you can't just work from home or it's raining today so I'm not coming in. You have to have.

Proof that you're a self manager. And so this year we launched one of our big initiatives this year is self management. I got everyone iPad. Nobody has any excuse. You gotta enter your job tickets, you gotta come to work, you know, or something. So you. It's very fascinating. And so there's all these kind of gates you have to pass and then you're granted, you know, you get to work from home because it's too disruptive and it's too much of a burden on the people that come in. But I'm a way believer and here's what's happening. Silicon Valley is hot. It's expensive. Some of my employees are double income families and 70% of their double income just goes to rent. Oh my God, this place is broken. It is not sustainable. I have to let people work from home. So it's not like, like I embrace it but I have to, you know. And they have a two hour commute each way or whatever.

I was just gonna say commuting four hours is.

We're gonna work out all the uh huh huh. And so we're working out all the kinks. And then I may, I may have to just have a small office in the Valley and let a lot of people work remote because it's not sustainable here and people are leaving fast. Not at my shop. I mean a couple people have left in the last year cause of can't afford to live here. But.

I have to break my model to accommodate the work from home worker because my company will not thrive if I don't have that working really well as a system.

Even your perspective on that reflects the introduction of your book which is kind of trying to see one step ahead. And I commend you for it. I think it's fascinating. Like that's probably its own S curve. It's just dealing with this question.

Actually I didn't think of it that way.

Especially in the.

Yeah. And it's funny. It. Yeah. It just came up yesterday. It's like, wait a minute, wait. We have some people that say, live in Sacramento. This is just like a little rant or whatever. Some people live in Sacramento and they're like, oh, I'm gonna travel all during the workday because I have such a long commute and I need you to buy me a hotel or whatever, which is fair, whatever. But then the commuters here that are like, wait, I do two hours each way every day and I don't do it during workout. Right. So there's this interesting as we look at, oh, why don't, you know, how do we accommodate the people that want to live outside the area and buy a home and yet not, you know, I don't know. So we're. It's interesting socially, emotionally. People are very. And it's very open, very honest. And we're having these big corporate conversations about how do we make this work where everyone feels it's fair. Yeah, that's so funny you brought that up. Nobody asked me that.

If you can talk that now.

Yeah. You read my book. I can tell.

Thank you. I did, I did, I did. And I think that you've been so forward thinking and that's one of your great, great strengths and that a lot of people are trying to solve this question and I think if there's anyone that can do it and put a framework to it, it's going to be you.

That's super interesting because we have. But I hadn't considered releasing that to the world, but now I've thought of that, so thank you.

Oh, you're so welcome. Okay, last question. What ceremony will you do to celebrate Illuminate launching and you getting this out there, or if you've already done one, I'd love to know what it is now.

You know what, it's funny. We were talking about you can do one that's kind of cheesy and feels forced. You can. It just naturally happens. And so it was so funny. We finished the book on May Day. It was just a fluke, right. It was our last day. We knew we were going to finish it. We knew that was the day we had to send it off to the publisher. Well, May Day, you exchange flowers, right. It's just May 1st. And so we. Patty came in with these little kind of baby's breath and was like, let's work today with little flower wreaths on our heads. Right. It's like, it's kind of this funny thing. And so we probably spent the first hour of that morning trying to Construct them into something that looked decent. And we wound up doing something, but it looked more like antler ears than a beautiful wreath or whatever. So we're popping away the day with our little antler ear, baby's breath, hair pieces, whatever you want to call them. Feeling so clever, right? Oh, again, we have this little ceremony, and so the book's done. I don't know. It's 5:30. We send it off, we toast champagne with some strawberries in it. Right. Natural thing to do. And I'm like, well, what's James doing tonight? That's her husband. He goes, oh, he's. She goes, oh, he's probably tired. Probably won't be. Want to come? He's really super shy. Both our husbands are introverts, as you can imagine. And I'm like, we'll just ask him. We'll put some stuff on the grill, blah, blah, blah. So she calls her husband. Oh, my God, he wants to come. Because he's. He's not usually like that. He wants to come. And so, interestingly, we had dinner, and then me and Patty and our two husbands sat by the fire and told stories.

Oh, that's.

And. And when it was done, I'm like, patty until 11 at night, and I'm an early bird. I go to bed at nine no matter what. Me too.

Patty. Look what just happened. We just had a communal, cathartic moment with the people we love the most. It was natural. It was like, let's. It was so bizarre. Like, we were like, oh, my God, it happened. But we didn't even have to do the baby's breath in our hair all day and look like dorks or whatever, you know? And we were just like, how did that just happen? How did it happen? Like, we couldn't even have. If we had planned it, it wouldn't have been so beautiful. And that was how we did. And then we did do a book launch and we gave away little lanterns, the torch. But that, to me, was the culmination of the book. Was sitting for four hours around a fire telling stories with our spouses.

I mean, you can't plan it any better. This is so perfect. To the book. Yeah, yeah.

And it was meta. It was one of those moments where we stepped back, we went, what just happened? It was so fun. It was so fun.

Oh, amazing. Nancy, thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure and an honor. Where can people find you? If they want to keep in touch.

They can find me@duarte.com. we also have a free visual overview of the book@duarte.com illuminate I'm on Twitter nancyduarte. The company's on Twitter Duarte. I connect to everyone who connects me on LinkedIn and that's lots of ways.

Amazing. I will link to all of this in the show notes as well, and I highly recommend everyone check out out Illuminate and go back and read Resonate if you haven't yet. It's both mandatory reading.

Thank you Jenny. You're so nice. Thank you.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. To learn more and get in touch, visit JennyBlake me where I blog about systems at the intersection of mind, body, and business. Or find me on Twitter ennyblake. And remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.