311: How to Get Unstuck with Lia Garvin

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You know, I'd encourage people, if you encounter a setback or face a failure or feel like a rejection or whatever, it's not you, it's your approach. And when you change your approach, which is to either ask for help or rewrite your resume or get some coaching or whatever it is, you can change your outcome. And that is what I have found with myself. And all the things that I've been really proud of my life have been from picking myself up after it didn't work out or after a failure, rejection and saying, okay, how can I change my approach? And just going forward again, what's next?

This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of the only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast. If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it.

Here we go.

Welcome back, Pivoters. I'm so excited to be here today with my guest, Leah Garvin. Leah is the author of Reframe your thinking to free yourself from the patterns and people that hold you back. She has nearly 10 years, probably more by now, of experience working in some of the most influential companies in tech and including Microsoft, Apple and Google to explore the power of reframing to overcome common challenges in the modern workplace. Leah and I have never crossed paths until this moment, but we have so much in common. Both spent five years at Google, both went to ucla, both did CTI coach training and yoga teacher training. So it's really fun to be here today. Welcome to the show, Leah.

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here and talk about all of our almost crossed.

Path over the years. Yeah, it's like parallel careers. You give a TEDx talk called your decisions aren't wrong. Your inner critic is why do you think that so many of us. Maybe it's a certain personality type where we're high on that big five neuroticism scale or conscientious scale. Why is it that we can spin out over decisions and think that it's us and not our inner critic?

Ugh. I mean, for me personally, I think there's a couple things at play. And as I've talked to others across coaching and working, you know, in the corporate world, I think perfectionism is one that I think a lot of us can get tripped up over and wondering, kind of spiraling around, what if this, what if that, what if this, you know, and all of these, what could go wrong? And I started to notice that when, when we start to think about all the things that could go wrong, we sort of bias whatever outcome that happens because the brain wants to know it was right. And so if we're thinking about all the things that could go wrong once we make a decision, then we're only looking for those and we're not looking for the things that actually went right. And so I think if we have a tendency to overthink things because we either are perfectionist or we are just a kind of habitual overthinker, then we almost create like a self fulfilling prophecy where the decision isn't something that we're happy with.

That's so interesting. It reminds me of I was just talking at dinner last night about the research, talking about satisficers and maximizers and that satisfies, just kind of take a quick decision and that's good enough. And then maximizers are always looking for the better version or the best and trying to make the best possible decision or purchase in any given category. Do you think that has something to do with it or is it more of an insecurity of just not quite trusting ourselves? Sometimes when there's a big decision on the table, I think it's a little.

Bit of both, I would definitely say. I think it has to do with that. I want to make sure with this career move that I'm lining myself up to be a leader, to grow to this, this, this, with this maximizer tendency, we can sort of believe that a small decision has bigger implications or that we can guarantee some sort of certainty around any decision. And what I talk about in my TEDx talk and what I've observed especially over the last few years with the pandemic is nothing is certain. Like who are we to think we can make some decision and it will guarantee some outcome? Like the reality is a decision is a best guess. It's a bet, as many people you know have said. And so I think when we can acknowledge that, we can actually shift our maximizing tendencies away from trying to achieve a certain outcome that we have less control over. Hey, have I satisfied the things that I set out to do? So I like to talk about this like separating the drivers from the decision or from the outcomes. And well, what are the drivers to make a career move? Well, maybe it's to be in more of a leadership position, maybe it's to explore a new industry, maybe it's to live in another location and we can actually satisfy all of those things regardless of the outcome. Like even if we don't like the job or the manager we came to work for moves on or it's not a fit, we can actually find success in our decisions if we reframe focusing on the outcome to actually accomplishing the drivers and the motivations.

So in this case, the drivers would be what's driving the decision, not the result of those choices.

Yeah, exactly.

I love that you call the book Unstuck because so many pivoters experience moments of being stuck. It's what usually initiates a big career move. But also it can be easy to get stuck mid change, mid transition. And I love too, because you have so much experience within companies.

You describe in the book, maybe more than once, I couldn't tell because I know you masked some of the examples actually being stuck where you were doing taking on a ton of responsibility or filling in. One of them was filling in with that chief of staff role, the person had stepped out and another one where you kept asking for advancement and the manager kept saying no. And then with the chief of staff, they filled the role without really even consulting you or giving you a heads up. How do you know when you're stuck on a team or with a manager that is just simply not going to advocate for you or doesn't see you, you're practically wearing an invisibility cloak versus that internal stuckness that we've been talking about, that internal self talk and dialogue and spinning, because that's what I've always found difficult in my career, is discerning the difference between those two things.

Like, as you're calling out, it can be hard to tell the difference. Like let's say with a manager we've asked for advancement or you know, new opportunities and we keep hearing wait, wait, wait, or not yet. We can then start to spiral internally and then the two things can become like, indistinguishable in our minds of what's actually happening. Recognizing when it's more of the environment or external looking around at, have I actually asked for something? Have I given a little bit of time to see if that would materialize? I'm not saying waiting years here, but have I given the person that I've asked something for an opportunity to deliver on what? Let's say I've said I want to be promoted and we've talked about a timeline. Have they met me? Where I'm at with that? Is my organization somewhere where I can develop and grow? Have I gotten feedback both positive and constructive? And so I think if you're not getting these fundamentals like feedback or development opportunities or manager isn't willing to talk about your growth, then I think you can say, well, is this the environment for me? And it's probably has some things that aren't really working. But I think on the flip side, if those things are in the works, and I'll admit it, like, sometimes, like, I get a little bit impatient. I'm like, hey, I want to do this now. I'm ready. I think a lot of us, especially the maximizer you called out, are really ambitious. We want to get this thing now, we want to make this change, we want this opportunity. And we can start to feel like, you know what? I don't want to feel stuck, even for a few months, and then decide, hey, I'm going to change the situation. And so I don't think it's a bad thing if we have a little bit of that impatience nipping at our heels. But it is important, I think, to recognize that something that's our internal driver, it's not. Doesn't mean it's a gap in the organization. But just to kind of figure out, well, what timeline makes sense based on what I want versus what's realistic in this company.

I think something that I was trying to shed more light on with Pivot is how uncomfortable it can be to feel stuck on a team or within an organization and not know what to do. It's like, it's one thing when you're running your own business, which I know you're out on your own now when you're running your own business, like, okay, I'm stuck and I might be having a crisis, and now I'm worried I can't pay the mortgage, but at least it's all on me. And that's the good news or the bad news. But it can be so hard in organizations to navigate the bureaucracy of change where you're stuck, you're uncomfortable, you're bored out of your mind, or you're doing busy work or really bureaucratic stuff or you have a fire breathing dragon manager which like I hate to put the responsibility on someone else. I know it's as much on us, but I've had managers where everyone on the team got physically sick from working with this person, you know. Yes. And yeah, that's the stuckness that I just think can cause so much despair because you have to almost wait until there's an internal role or you have to actually land the internal role when it could be very competitive. Someone said many years ago at Google they were like, it's harder to transition internally than it was to get hired in the first place. And that's really saying something.

Yeah, the problem with when we start to feel stuck is that we start to lose confidence or we doubt ourselves or we're not really sure what path we want to take or we're kind of running away from something instead of towards which can make the choices that we make, not what we want to make. If we felt like really excited about an opportunity. And I agree. I mean, I think the feeling of I've tried everything, I'm putting myself out there and I'm just not getting the results I want, I'm not liking this thing, but I don't know what's next. I think that's something that so many people are experiencing right now of feeling like, hey, I've kind of come to this realization that this isn't the thing I want and I don't really know what's next, but this isn't doing it for me. And I love to work with people in that moment because it's so important to me to remind people of all of the experiences that they've had, set them up for success, to be able to do the next thing and to really not discount any of the experience we've had. Even if we want to move completely away from some kind of role, there's transferable skills and experiences and wins that you have that you can really leverage for your next thing. And so when we're feeling stuck, like if you say, oh, okay, I worked, you know, was a lawyer and now I want to become a mechanical engineer, okay, maybe those things feel like they have nothing to do with each other but problem solving skills, analytical skills, being able to really make a strong argument, all these things can translate. And so first when we're feeling really, really stuck, like I don't know, I don't know what's next for me to actually stop and really recognize the things that you've Already accomplished. I think a helpful place to start. We don't deplete ourselves of the confidence before we even start.

Confidence is a big theme throughout the book and throughout your work. And I have to read this excerpt because this section made me laugh out loud and could so relate. You say I once led a manager training program that featured a feedback survey at the end of each session. Upon reviewing the results, I discovered I had my very own survey troll, capital S, capital T. He routinely gave my training a 1 out of 5 rating each month, claiming the content was useless because he knew all of it already. The survey wasn't even anonymous at first. His BS hit a nerve and needless to say, had me considering canceling the program and never leading another workshop again. Oh my goodness, I'm laughing so hard at your survey troll. And it's not even anonymous. Here's this person who has the nerve to give you one out of five stars every single month, yet keeps showing up. And as someone who's been in various forms of training for over a decade, I know that feeling. I once trained a room of a thousand people at a big conference and there were dozens, if not over a hundred lines of feedback that were just glowing. Love her vibe, love her content, love her energy. And then one of course is like, hate her energy, hate her vibe. Couldn't stand her, you know, and that was one out of a hundred. But it's so hard not to focus on the one and take that as a knock on confidence. So I wonder if you could just take us to that moment of having your survey troll. Like what was your internal dialogue, your process of working through that to recognize that actually that had nothing to do with you.

Ah, survey troll. Bless his heart.

I love. At the end of the book you say, I forgive you, survey troll.

We've moved forward. Not really, but yet. So it's exactly what you're saying. Like we put ourselves into our work and we give it our all. And especially if it's we're delivering content or we're generating creative ideas, we can start to attach our own self worth to the work that we're doing. And we can think, well, it's something about us. Like if someone doesn't like it, even if it's one out of a hundred or a thousand or ten thousand, that it means we're not good enough. In that moment, when I got the results exactly as I say, I started thinking like, should I redo all this content? Is it too, you know, basic or simple or whatever this person was saying? And then it hit me like if I looked holistically, everybody else had found so much value in it. And this thing doesn't have to be everything for everyone. Especially now as I do trainings with teams and workshops and coaching just to remind myself that everybody learns in different ways, everyone absorbs information in different ways and not everybody has to love everything that you're doing and it doesn't have anything to do with who you are as a person. And I think the more we can separate our own self worth from the work that we're doing and looking at the work objectively, then we can also look at it with constructive feedback and say, okay, what is something I can glean from this piece of feedback? What is something I want to change about it and be more proactive about fine tuning things instead of feeling like, oh, if anybody says anything, you know, really negative, I'm going to have to like run away and hide because I can't handle it. And a lot of work that I do with folks is around reframing their relationship with feedback. Because if it is something that feels so crushing when we hear something, even if it's not what most of the evidence is sharing, then it's gonna be really, really hard for us to self reflect and to improve whatever we're putting out in the world. The first place to start with getting unstuck is actually is actually with feedback. I hate to say it, I know it's the hardest one, but I think that is so important to say to remind ourselves. Feedback is information that I'm being given by someone else. It really has more to do with that person and their preferences than it does with me. Our feedback troll was the best manager ever on earth, so he didn't need any help saying, hey, this isn't going to be for everyone and that's okay.

We'll be right back just after this.

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Some trolls on the Internet, let's say the Internet more broadly, are truly, truly trolls. But then how do you know when you do get, let's say, two out of a hundred pieces of survey feedback, how do you know when what nuggets are worth taking in? Sometimes it could be an internal feeling. Something just hits a nerve and because you know it's true. But like with Survey Troll, did you take anything from it? Did you think, oh, maybe we should vet out the managers who already know it all and give them an exit ramp from this program? How do you take that kernel of truth without spinning out about it? I call it the personal development police. In so many dating situations, I was like, it's on me. What can I do? How can I be more compassionate and empathetic and loving and acceptful? Meanwhile, I'm like dealing with a sociopath. Sorry, that was my rant. That was my rant about doing extra work.

Totally one thing to do and maybe in the work setting, maybe in the dating setting too, is like to collect more data. So, hey, if there's a signal that this thing might be too much fundamentals training instead of deeper, deeper into experience being a manager, collecting more information around what is sort of the level of learned that people are looking for. And so I think resurveying people or reaching out to people that have different levels of experience and doing more data collection really to actually dive into if there is anything you want to change or fine tune. The other thing we could do if it was intentionally like, nope, this is a fundamentals manager training is to really clarify that in setting expectations up front. So saying, hey, before you opt into this program, here is who it's for. So really articulating your audience, what people are going to be listening or learning about, what they could expect to get out of it so that people don't show up, be like, what is this? And then they just go right to the survey. Unfortunately, as you're kind of alluding to with trolls in general, like, I think a lot of times most of the people that enjoyed it and just kind of like went along with their business, they actually don't fill out the survey. It's the people that are like raving fans or we're like, ugh, I don't like this. And so collecting more insights maybe from the people in the middle that were the most of the people that were a part of the experience. And then also, yeah, setting expectations a lot more clearly up front so that you can just say, oh, okay, this person, they didn't actually pay attention to that. They didn't know what they were signing up for. That's okay. I don't need to change anything about what I've done.

I love that advice to collect more data. Now, when you say it, it sounds so obvious, but you're right. It's like that one nugget does not have to be the end all, be all, but if it hits a nerve, do more digging. That's a very reasonable next step. Thank you. Another area where confidence and vulnerability converge into what you would call a shitstorm of some kind is negotiating. And I laughed again. You have such funny quips throughout this book. You say, let's talk about negotiating. Oh, you mean that thing I'm terrible at doing that has cost me tens of thousands of dollars over the course of my career because I wasn't sure how to best represent myself? Yep, that's the one. So why on earth for me too, why does negotiating feel so challenging? And especially in a super high stakes situation like trying to accept or negotiate for a new job? Because it feels like such an accomplishment to even get to that negotiating table. You don't want to do anything to screw it up.

Yes, exactly. And so I think that's the first thing, right, Is that we get to the negotiation and we've put so much pressure on ourselves that we actually forget we already did the hard thing. We already got the job. And so that's the first thing I would say to folks that are approaching a negotiation or in the midst of one, is to remember you already did it. They already want you. And it's actually like, probably way harder for them to find a new candidate than to just close the deal with you. To recognize when we're psyching ourselves out, like, oh my God, I'm gonna blow it. I'm gonna say something and they're gonna be like, like, what's this person's deal? Because this is a formality at this point. We're just closing the deal here. Now, that does not mean we don't want to be prepared. As I talked about the book, we want to kind of always be prepared for negotiation. Even we're not negotiating a salary. I mean, you never know when something's going to come up. Like, let's say someone approaches you from your network out of the blue with an awesome opportunity, or you're at a. Some sort of in a conversation unexpectedly, where someone asks, you know, what do you do? And kind of, you have an opportunity to talk about the value you bring. And I think when we wait to think about that till the hour before a negotiation, we're really doing ourselves a disservice because it puts so much pressure on. Okay, how do I explain this? And what do I say if there's an awkward silence and we put all this into this one conversation, but instead, if we think about what is my general expectation in this situation? What is my bottom line? Like, what do I want. Not want to go under? But then what are some of the levers that make an opportunity better? Before COVID it was like, maybe having flexibility in location or being able to work remote. Maybe now it's about days in the office or something else. But I would say when you're struggling with a negotiation, I think it's a couple things. One is putting so much pressure on this one conversation and not having thought about these things before, where you've demystified them in your mind. And then two, not being prepared and thinking about, what are the things that.

Are important to me.

Maybe doing some role play with a friend. Like, how do you explain. How do you advocate for yourself in an awkward conversation when someone disagrees, when someone offers you something that's totally not what you would ever go for. Right. Sometimes we have to hear ourselves say these things out loud to know, okay, I can say it. Here's a way that I can say it that lands really well. Here's what I wouldn't want to say. And just work through it.

I try to remember that, too. Like, it's part of the process, it's expected. Someone once told me, too, that the other side often feels accomplished if there's been a negotiation, and they feel like they really got a gem because you're worth this. You went back and forth, you negotiated. You know that it actually gives a psychological boost to them, too. So I try to think about that. There goes my people.

Pleasing.

Like, let's make sure we all feel boosted.

Adding to what you were saying is a lot of us have trouble advocating for ourselves. And if you think about, you're in this negotiation, you're advocating for the value you bring, that it's somewhat external to you. You can actually sort of start to talk about it more objectively. Like, hey, this is the experience that I've had. This is what I've landed, this is what I've delivered. What is this worth? Like, here's what my expectation is based on this. And then you're both talking about this thing outside of you, not your personal worth. And who you are as a person. Like we don't want to be over there because that's where we can get really stuck.

I love that. Thank you. And I'll link to an interview I did with Mori Tahir Report in the show notes. She wrote a book on negotiation that I found super helpful as well. And of course Chris Voss, the master. His masterclass is so good on this topic. Let's talk about getting Unstuck. Creatively writing a book is a big undertaking. It sounded like you'd written one on accountability before Unstuck. Was Unstuck your first big publisher book or was it the accountability one as well?

Unstuck's the first one. And super excited report. It became a Amazon bestseller last week or the week before. So super excited for that. My book on accountability was based on all of my experiences working in team operations and seeing all the reasons things don't get done.

You as well.

Having worked in the program management site, it can become very clear from when you're outside of the equation of all the things that would help people feel more connected to their work and approach it in a way that would help get things done more effectively. But that wasn't enough for a whole book. That's something I would revisit, I think again later.

I mean, writing a book is such a big undertaking and even if listeners you're not working on a book, I find many people listening to this show have creative ambitions. Let's call it what was the most stuck you got in the book process. And I'd love to know how you worked through that.

I'm curious if you experienced this too. Like for me, writing the book itself was fun. It was time consuming, but there was ease to it. It was really important to me to write it in my own voice, you know, be really authentic, to share my experiences. And so the writing was fun. What I didn't realize is the actual job is like getting the word out there, talking about it, promoting it, writing more things. Once you've already written the book and sort of doing this whole second run of okay, how do I bring this out into the world and share it with other folks, get awareness of it, talk about it. That was actually the harder part for me.

We'll be right back just after this.

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You did such an amazing job of writing in your voice. This book genuinely feels like sitting down with a friend and you kind of giving us a loving kick in the butt of how to reframe our thinking across all these different areas. How did you channel your voice in that way? I don't know. Did you have writing practice? Did that aspect of it just come naturally to you?

I wrote a lot before this. I was writing like articles on medium and different places around team dynamics, which is to nerd out is like a hobby of mine to just read about and write about team culture. But I started writing kind of freeform as I was just thinking about. I had been doing a lot of coaching and sort of like what's sort of top of mind, like almost journaling, and I started just writing and building on it and it ended up sort of taking shape into six or eight of these challenges that ended up becoming 12 in unstuck. It was really important to me to just sort of put stream of consciousness onto paper, which I had to clean up quite a bit. I would say that was kind of one of the harder parts was editing it, making it make sense. I felt like there had been so many, so many business books that don't dive into like what is the real experience? Like what is it like if you're not an executive or you're just in the middle of it, in the thick of it. And that's what I really wanted to communicate in the book at that. You're not alone if you're feeling stuck and we don't all have it all figured out. But here are some tools that I've picked up along the way and definitely a lot of lessons I learned things I wouldn't do again. And as I started doing that, it felt really freeing to be able to write that and to be able to share that with other people. And I think it was really fun to be able to really lean into my sarcasm and some of that more than I ever had in my writing and just sort of play around with it. And I think it took a big risk. Like I was worried, well, is this gonna feel too silly or not serious enough? As more and more people have read it, it resonated with them that I was talking, like, just know, having a conversation with a friend or just my normal self. And it ended up really pushing me to do that everywhere is to not have a business Persona. And this writing Persona that was kind of silly and sarcastic and that like only showed up in my book and how would I actually bring that more into my day to day life? And so I think that's something that I really bring to my coaching work and consulting and try to bring to all the content I'm putting out there now is this is me. You know, I have kind of some stream of consciousness thoughts you'll see in the book. I try to create some levity with humor around some difficult topics and it's just made the whole thing way more fun than trying to become this like serious business book. Like, right? Yeah, that wouldn't have worked for me.

It's so punchy. And you're right. There is so much levity and honesty as well. I mean, part of your humor again, like, I wish I could tap into that level of humor. I think it's also your ability to laugh at yourself. With us, we're not laughing at you, but we're just laughing at the situations and your narrative. Like, you just do such a good job. Talk about that stream of consciousness of just taking us to your mindset in that moment. And we've all been there, we've all had these thoughts. They are really, really funny. Thank you. I love that connecting to the writing process in that way made you realize actually there's other aspects of my career that I want to be more myself in. So how is that showing up now? Like, what have you given yourself permission to do to that end of being more fully you with all your irreverence?

One big thing was to actually make the move of leaving the tech world. I had been in, worked in tech, like you said, almost 10 years at Google, five years and just saying, I'm gonna go for it. I'm gonna take a chance on myself and really see, hey, do I like working for myself? Do I like building a business, being an entrepreneur and running a business and I think for a long time really wrestling with being a non engineer, working in tech and kind of figuring out how do I make an impact here and what is the value I bring. And wrestling with this for many years and then coaching a lot of people within Google and within tech around how do you find your identity in a space like that? And then sort of writing the book, doing a TED Talk, and I was like, it's time for me to get myself unstuck and just make some moves that I had been thinking about in the background for a long time. Putting it all on paper too, in unstuck helped me take that leap of separate the drivers from the outcomes. So like, hey, what are the drivers? Well, I want to know if this is something that I like to do and I'm already really enjoying it regardless of the outcomes. But it's been a really awesome experience to see what is this world like of navigating entrepreneurship outside of the support systems you get in the corporate world?

I love just that approach of curiosity, like, am I going to like this? Why don't I find out? You know, because it is easy to spin out going, can I be good at it? I had so many thoughts. I'm not cut out for entrepreneurship. I'm such a good team player. I'm good at following direction. I'm not gonna be good at this. And I love how you're just saying, let me try.

I'm gonna try.

Yeah, I'm gonna see if I like it and if I don't like it, I'll change again.

Yeah, it's been surprising to me. I didn't think that would be my reaction. I was like, I'm surprisingly not stressed about making this move. I don't know. It was the right moment.

There are certain things that you get a whole lot less of as an entrepreneur in some ways. Like there's way less feedback because you're the boss now. So I feel like there's really no one giving a twice annual performance review other than your wallet, your bank account balance. But then on something like negotiation, it's like, oh, surprise, now you get to negotiate every client, every contract, everything you're ever going to do.

So totally.

I can only say I've gotten slightly, marginally better and that it has always helped me to have a second person saying my rates when I can. That doesn't always happen, but yes, continues to be an edge, a button that gets frequently pushed running a business. What did we miss? What has surprised you most since the book came out? Or in conversations that you've been having as you take the show on the.

Road, when you think of something like, oh, a purple Ferrari. And then you start seeing it everywhere, right? Like something you never had thought of before. As I started talking about this theme of being stuck, I've seen it so many places and at first you have like, oh my God, am I talking about anything original? Everybody thought this. No, you know, like rain it in, rain in the self doubt. I think it showed that it was really a moment where so many people are feeling stuck. Like we've talked about at the beginning of the conversation, like whether it's how do I ask for that promotion or ask for more money or make a move or change my situation, relationship or whatever it is. I think this is such a theme right now that people are feeling like, ugh, I just want something different, I want something else. And so I think when we encounter those feelings, to stop and actually to take action and to say, I'm choosing to not feel stuck anymore. Now what I do, and in the book and in my work in general around reframing is encouraging people to look at a challenge where they're feeling stuck and ask, how else can I look at this? What else can I try? What might be going on with the person on the other side? Because when we ask ourselves these open ended questions, we get out of feeling all of the analysis and why me? And all these things that we sort of wrestle with internally that can make us spiral. But instead we see, hey, there's actually a lot of other ways that I could approach the situation. As I was going to my TEDx talk and sharing about it with some friends, I was thinking like, wait a second, people think, oh, TEDx talk. I could never do that. Like, oh, that's for someone else, not for me. And it was really important me to share with people that TEDx, writing a book, getting a job at Google, even getting into ucla, those were all things that didn't happen on the first try that turned out after rejection, after disappointment, after setbacks, and that we often see the other side of someone's journey and we think, oh yeah, that's for them, I couldn't do that. But we don't hear the messy middle, as they say. You know, I'd encourage people, if you're encountering setback or face a failure or feel like a rejection or whatever, it's not you, it's your approach. And when you change your approach, which is to either ask for help or rewrite your resume or get some coaching or whatever it is, you can change your outcome. And that is what I have found with myself. And all the things that I've been really proud of my life have been from picking myself up after it didn't work out or after a failure rejection and saying, okay, how can I change my approach and just going forward again. And I think all of us can try to think about that mantra as we approach things. It's not you, it's your approach. And then what can I do?

Thank you for sharing that. I love that. It's so helpful to hear you say all these things that look very fancy on the outside might have taken multiple tries. And that's the other thing we don't see. There's that now total cliche trope. Don't compare someone else's highlight reel to your movie or whatever, your insides to someone else's outsides. But you're right in that. Don't even compare someone else's career journey or accomplishments with how many tries. You have no clue how many tries it took to land what ends up showing on LinkedIn. That's such a helpful reminder. If you could give listeners one experiment, one piece of homework to try, what would it be?

Ooh, I love this. When you're feeling stuck and you start getting into this why me? Sort of space, like, why didn't they pick me? Why is this happening? Why did they say that? To reframe the questions from why to what. So to write down all the questions you're thinking and write the alternative question as what? So, for example, why didn't they pick me? Would be reframed into what else might be going on in that situation I'm not aware of. To why does this always happen? To what else might be possible? To why doesn't that person responding to me? What might be going on in that person's life I'm not aware of. And by writing down these questions, we can actually see the difference of the why ones are keeping us believing it all has to do with ourselves, that there's something wrong with us or something wrong with someone else and everything is about us. And then when we reframe into the what questions, we see, hey, there's a whole world out there that's happening and some of it has to do with me and some of it doesn't. And that when I see the outcomes on the what side, I can depersonalize from believing that it's all about me. And so I would say, when you're feeling stuck, reframe those questions from why to what and you're left feeling so much more empowered.

I totally second that. Thank you. In fact, that was one of my first managers at Google gave me that feedback. So talk about feedback to go full circle. He's like try asking a what question? Because why puts people on the defensive.

Yeah.

So thank you for sharing that. Where can people find you if they want to learn more and keep in touch?

Yes. So you can find me on my website leahgarvin.com I encourage you to check out. I have some free tips for do's and don'ts for talking about your work. So talking about your work is something I think a lot of us struggle with really owning that value we bring we talked about. So head to leahgarvin.comtips to download that resource. And then I have another resource for teams, how to build your best team yet@leah garvin.com Teams grab stuff there or on Instagram at Leah Garvin. And I have a YouTube channel reframe with Leah where I share little short excerpts about a lot of the themes of my book and a lot of the themes that I work through with teams in the workplace.

Awesome. I'll make sure to put all those in the show notes. Thank you so much Aaliyah. It's a joy to connect and congrats on your book hitting Amazon bestseller status.

Woohoo.

Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. Thanks everybody for listening.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode at Pivot Method.

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Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.