317: “We are the Refresh Generation” — Shifting Out of Reality Escape Artist Mode with Paul Angone

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What are we missing out of? What is the rich meat, the rich substance of life that we're missing out of? To live a fulfilled life, to live at peace, to live with joy, but also to live a productive, purposeful life. What are we limiting because our distractions are calling the shots. We used to live annoyed with distractions and now we're far too often living for distractions.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Welcome back Pivoters. I am so excited to have one of my longest time friends from the blogosphere, Paul Angoni, back on the show today. I have known Paul for almost 15 years. I had been blogging at Life After College and somebody connected us because his website is all grown up. Grown as in the sound that you make when things just aren't going your way. He is so funny. He's one of the most trusted, sought after voices in the country to college students, young professionals, really anybody going through career change. He's written a handful of best selling books, 101 Secrets for your 20s. 101 Questions you need to ask in your 20s. 25 Lies 20 somethings need to stop believing. And today we're talking about his brand new book, Listen to youo Day. The life changing practice of Paying attention. Paul, welcome back to the show.

Oh thank you so much for having me. It's an honor being here.

Ginny, you were Last on in April 2018, episode 92. If anyone wants to check it out on Adulting to win. I feel that this isn't in the bio I read, but you're married, you have four kids, you have a puppy in the house. I watched the unboxing of your family opening. It was on Instagram reels. Not that I'm ever on there, but just Preparing for this interview. And it was so sweet seeing the joy in all your children's spaces, like tearing into this box of your books like it's Christmas. What a special moment.

It's surreal. Every book is surreal. Every book feels like its own baby, really. And I was matching books with babies for a while, so I had four books and four babies. So now this is the fifth book. But now we have a puppy.

Yeah.

She was super excited we were talking about before. I think she was the most excited to see the book. Like, she was thrilled. So I guess I've kind of kept up with the pattern and tradition of books and babies. I dedicated the book to all of my family. My wife, Naomi, she edits all my books before they go to the publisher. So we always have that process together since we were newly married. So she's a huge part of every book. But then every kid as well. I dedicate it to every kid just because it's a sacrifice. You know how it is, Jenny. It's just a sacrifice for everybody involved because it takes so much time and energy and space to really do, hopefully, a good job with a book. So I think it is. It's an accomplishment for everybody. It's definitely not my book. Like, I do feel like this is a family book. This is the family business, so to speak.

I love it. And we were saying, too, you've even gotten into filming commercials as a family, as part of the family biz.

Yes, that's right. Yeah. I mean, my wife and I always dreamed, and it hasn't worked all the time, but we always dreamed of kind of like Paul and Naomi Incorporated, where we would have a business and a family and do life and work together. And now we're really doing that because I have my writing and speaking career, but that lets me be flexible. And so the last few years, yeah, it's been a wild trip to throw in commercial acting into the mix. And now my whole family does it. So we've been in commercials all over the United States and some international commercials together, too. We really do everything together. All facets of life for good and bad. But we really love it. We enjoy. Feels very rich. And I know it doesn't work like that for a lot of people. We can't all pull that off. But it's just a sweet season that we're in where we can make money together and they can make money for themselves.

You joked about trying to keep up a book for each kid, but also while you're doing that, then the complexity of trying to find the time to write each book gets increasingly more difficult, and I imagine the pull for your attention gets increasingly stronger of wanting to spend quality time with your family. So how have you navigated that with this latest book? Given that the complexity is really at a peak right now?

It was even more complex if I can come clean with you and your audience. Because when I had a book deadline, you know, we have this deadline, this looming date that's coming, my family went on this like hot streak, which was totally just beyond what we'd ever experienced before. But we booked like five commercials all in a row. And one of those was like a Royal Caribbean cruise. So we were gone for seven days on a cruise. And one was a Tahoe ski resort in Malibu and one in Vail, Colorado. We were just traveling for like a month and a half straight as a family. And if you've ever vacationed with kids, like that alone is challenging enough, let alone when you're like all working together too. So I was doing all that while I had this looming book deadline. So it became even a more intense, I would say, experience for me. But I don't know if you're this way, Jenny. For me, I kind of need the pressure. I kind of need the deadline, I need the heat, so to speak. I kind of need to get backed into a corner sometimes. And I feel like that's when some people do some really great work, you know, is when you get backed in that corner and really your only way out is to write or create or to do the thing that you know you need to do. And so I kind of got back to that corner, which was interesting for a book called Listen to your day. You know, the life changing practice of paying attention, which is about reflection, hearing the details of your day, getting revelation and ideas throughout the day, and limiting the distractions and noise. So I really had to be very proactive with that if I was going to write a book amidst all the craziness of life.

And when you found that you were backed into a corner, you had to write. What did you do to give yourself that space amidst all the chaos? Like, do you get out of the house? My friend books a hotel for a week. What's your strategy?

I did do some of that. I booked a hotel a few different nights, but without fail, that's when I booked a hotel. And then I get a call that everybody's sick and please help. Cause I didn't book a hotel far enough away where you're still close enough that you can get home. That was problematic. But I actually have this great place here in Denver. It's kind of like a retreat center, so to speak. I know the director there, and so they let me stay there for about three days. And honestly, I probably wrote a third of the book during that span of time where it was just flowing. It was just one of those magical moments where things are really flowing well, where you do feel like you have that peace and quiet to really hear and to reflect. And it was just getting a lot of words and concepts down. So that was really helpful. But also, And I don't know if you're the same way, Jenny, when you're writing. I'm really learning that I do my best writing when I'm not writing. Yes, I'm doing my best writing when I am taking a walk or a hike or doing the dishes or even in this book. This might be too much information, but I say it in the book. I literally wrote, like, a chapter while in the bathtub where I'm just, like, taking a bath and writing.

Funnily enough, you're the second author I've interviewed recently. I interviewed Erin Haig for free time. She also wrote from the bathtub.

See?

So you're not alone.

Winston Churchill used to dictate speeches from the bathtub. What was it? Trumbo, who was a famous screenwriter. There's actually a statue of him in Grand Junction, Colorado, of him in a bathtub with, like, a cigar and a typewriter. We're not the first ones. This has been going on for a while. But it's those quiet spaces, right? Those protected spaces where we can actually think and reflect. We can hear those aha moments. Because those aha moments don't just come out of nowhere, really. They come in spaces and times when our mind and our heart is free to hear and reflect and hear those aha moments.

And that freedom is getting increasingly rare. You have a zinger of a line. You say, we are the refresh generation, constantly getting a hit from our phone for the latest update. The iPhone is our cigarette. Too many of us are chain smoking our phones. Is there an E patch?

Oof.

That one hits to the heart. Because I'm sure we can all relate. I know you too. Where instead of allowing that space, the freedom to think and have those ahas there, we are hitting refresh like monkeys on our devices.

Exactly. And that's the impetus behind writing the book, is I felt like I had a real problem. You know, that's where most of my books start. It comes from me feeling like, man, I'm really Struggling at something, and I need to find some answers here. And so that began the process of researching and writing, really, for years. You know, the deadline hit, and I had to really get it out. But I'd been working on this project for years because I felt like, man, I'm really struggling f focusing. I'm really struggling when I come to a tough spot in my work, I'm finding this natural reaction now where I just find any distraction available. It's like, whatever distraction I can find. Internet browser, my phone, whatever. And I'm not even consciously making that choice anymore. It's really a reflex. I am that Pavlovian dog. Whatever. That bell is ringing, that notification's hitting. It's like, please, yes, a distraction. I need that. And so it really is becoming that hit. And it is addictive. We've seen the documentaries, we've seen the studies, but yet I think we're all maybe still a little bit. I don't know if it's ashamed or we don't want to really talk about the fact that we possibly are too addicted to our devices, or we just want to explain it a way that it's a necessity or I need it or whatever. But I just felt like, man, for myself, I was five, six hours a day on my phone. That's too much.

Was there a reason? I mean, I know, of course phones and apps are being engineered for this. Johann Hari wrote the book Stolen Focus. I haven't read it. I bought it. I just haven't read it. I've heard him on a bunch of podcasts. And there are advocates like Tristan Harris. And in your life at the time that you realized this was a problem, do you think there was something you were trying to escape? Was it trying to escape the difficulty of life, the chaos of the house? And again, they're being engineered to get us to behave this way. And I'm also wondering, what is it within us that allows it to happen or somehow needs this escape? Just like we would turn to food or drugs to distraction.

I think that's the great comparison, right? And, you know, and that's the studies that are coming out. They're talking about the dopamine hits and the chemical reactions that are going on. When we check our phone and we get the validation and the notification, it just gives us that chemical high like a drug would. And I have some different research in the book. I remember one developer when he was being interviewed by the BBC, and, you know, all these developers are, like, coming clean, right? They're, like, afraid of what They've created. It's like the Frankenstein monster, right? And this developer was talking about how it was really like behavioral cocaine is what they were developing. And there's thousands of very smart engineers behind developing that behavioral cocaine. And so I definitely felt that pull of the addiction. And it is very similar, you know, to taking the hit of the cigarette to bring that metaphor back in. If you were feeling anxious or worried or maybe there's just too much noise going on in the room. Right. You might step outside to take that cigarette, you know, kind of calm your nerves, calm your worry. Well, now I feel like we're pulling off that same phenomenon, so to speak, but we don't even need to leave the room now. Now we just kind of slightly, you know, just slyly pull out our phone, and I can kind of escape wherever I'm at. That's why I talk about in the book that we've become kind of cultural escape artists, where we're very quick and we're very good at escaping whatever the situation is. And for me, yeah, it is maybe the noise or the stress or even just the worry or fear. Fear of. Will anybody read a book, you know, that I'm working on? Fear of. I can't finish another book. These fears that I'm running up against, and I'm trying to ease that fear with a hit of some social media platform or whatever it is, some distraction. And, like, we all know, it never really works. You know, none of us spend 30 minutes on Instagram and then come back and think, you know, I feel so much better about my life.

I know. Said no one ever, at least not.

You know, I feel great. I feel motivated. I feel ready to tackle my problems. I feel better about my body, my car, my house, my kids. No one thinks that. Right. But yet we keep getting pulled into it, and it's that carousel. It's that carousel of addiction. And yet we feel like we don't have enough time in the day, but yet we're spending so much time on what? On our phone. And so that's the paradox right now, I think of the 21st century that we're really wrestling with. We're in the midst of this, and we got to start talking about it and figuring out some new strategies and practices. I feel like our attention has been stolen from us or maybe that we've freely given it away.

Right.

And I feel like that is a scary place in this culture right now. It is.

And even if it is a combination of both, it doesn't stop the fact that it's happening. I even noticed in myself I'm having a hard time reading books. And this is something that I've intrinsically loved since I was a child. Books have been my bomb. My best friends, my mentors, they are oxygen to me. Why is it that all of a sudden that love, that intrinsic desire to read a book, where has it gone? That's terrifying to me that it's just out the window. And that someone said to me the other day, they said they don't have the attention span to watch anything longer than a 90 second video because of TikTok even. I'm not on TikTok either because I got so addicted. Like crack. When I used it. An hour would vanish in the blink of an eye.

Yeah.

And I was so entertained. It was scary.

It is alarming. So that's why I wrote the book. Cause I felt like, man, we gotta take it back. Or we at least have to open up this conversation more and more. Because it's not only then what we're being fed through whatever platform we're looking at, which we have no control of. Right. We have no choice. I mean, it's whatever they decide in the infinite scroll.

Yes.

And they created that on Instagram, let's say Instagram stories or whatever. Or TikTok, where you don't even have to press anything to go to the next video.

Even Spotify just launched this ball. Spotify? I was on there. Well, actually this will come out pretty soon from when we record. But all of a sudden now there's an infinite frigging scroll on the Spotify homepage of podcast episodes. And I'm listening to these little clips and these little built in audiograms that the podcaster doesn't even need to create. Spotify's just doing it for us now. Now there's even a frigging infinite scroll on the Spotify home. I just can't even believe it.

Netflix does. It drives me crazy. You jump on Netflix, they don't even want you to think about what you're doing.

Right.

You know, I had this image of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, the one with Sean Connery, that classic movie with Harrison Ford. And if anybody's seen this movie, if you haven't, there's this scene where a plane is coming to kill Harrison Ford and Sean Connery on a beach, right? They have nowhere to go or hide. And then Sean Connery kind of runs out with this umbrella and you don't really know what he's doing, but he's making all these crazy noises because he sees this flock of seagulls. So he scares all these seagulls up in the air. And this flock of seagulls goes right into the propellers of the plane. You know, it's back in the 40s and the plane goes down because the seagulls just attacked this plane and crashed it. Now that was the image I got when thinking about the sheer amount of distractions that are coming at our plane, so to speak, every single day, where we're just flying along happily. We're not even trying to do any harm to anybody. We're just trying to fly our plane. But it's like the moment we open up our phone, or we don't even have to open up our phone, all these distractions are flying up into our face. And it's taken us down so many times. It takes me down so many times. And then I feel so anxious and I feel worried. I don't feel rooted. I feel like I'm missing my family, I'm missing deep connections with my relationships. So it's not only what we're then viewing and consuming, it's then what are we missing out of. What is the rich meat, the rich substance of life that we're missing out of to live a fulfilled life, to live at peace, to live with joy, but also to live a productive, purposeful life. What are we limiting because our distractions are calling the shots? We used to live annoyed with distractions, and now we're far too often living for distractions. And that's alarming.

We'll be right back just after this.

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On the flip side, I love how you put this and I've never heard anyone put it precisely like this. You say, I would argue the most successful and fulfilled people on this earth are Simply better at paying attention to what's important.

Yes.

I love the way you say that, that paying attention truly is the path to becoming an expert. Experts focus on one thing through a lens that others are not willing or cannot see through.

That seems like the opposite direction of this. If those of us, those of you who are listening, if we crave to have meaning and impact in our lives and presence with our families, then paying attention is the vehicle.

We only see what we're looking for. This seems so simple, but it really was a game changing realization for me that I write more fully about in the book. But really what we pay our attention towards is a choice. It's something that we're thinking about. It's something that we are looking for because many studies have shown that we're actually really bad at paying attention. It's called inattentional blindness. And I talk about this in the book. That we actually don't see a lot of the stuff coming right in front of us every day. We just don't see it. We're not aware to doesn't cross that threshold of cognitive awareness. So we really only see what we're looking for. That's kind of the whole goal of advertising, right? In marketing it was called the rule of seven. And I used to work in marketing and that was the goal. You get an image or phrase or something in front of somebody at least seven times before they'll even realize they're seeing it. And so that's why it's just the sheer amount of advertising. They just want you to see it so many times before you'll even realize, oh wait, I'm seeing this now, that paying attention is that choice. And that's why I say that experts, they're not these magical people that are more talented or smarter than everyday people, they've just chosen to pay attention to something with a narrowed focus, with a concentrated focus. And they're willing to go deeper into this area than anybody else. And then they're the expert at it. We need that to be successful. We actually have to narrow our sense of focus. We have to make that choice of what am I going to pay attention to? Paying attention is a choice. So what am I going to direct my awareness to today? And we can ask ourselves that question every day as we kind of set the stage for the day. It's telling our minds, hey mind, this is what we're focusing on today. This is the golden grail. This is the focus. Like we're doing this today. And then that way your path and Your purpose becomes more important than your distraction. You're more focused on that because now it's like, man, yeah, no, I can't do the distraction right now because, man, there's some really important stuff that I know I want to focus on today because it's important to my why, my reason, my purpose.

Yeah, I've noticed for me too, especially as I've gotten older, as my friend Kay says, shock creators age. So I'm turning 40 this year. I can't believe it. But it does not sit well at all. As in, it wakes me up in the middle of the night. I know that it does. My mood definitely drops the next day. So no matter how warm and fuzzy in the moment, it's past the point on the curve where it's even worth it at all anymore for me, with very rare occasions, maybe some super fancy cocktail at a speakeasy in New York or something. But attention is like that. And so that's why I'm not on social media, because I've always felt so much worse. It was like the hangover was never worth it. And so I think what you're saying about being an expert, when we start the day and we're choosing where to put our attention and our focus is remembering I don't feel good when I do the other things or I don't feel good when I take a hit off my cell phone too many times a day. Yeah, I actually feel worse. I feel hungover. I feel sad, lazy. Not lazy, but like lethargic. And so it's also, for me, it's like remembering it doesn't even feel that good to be doing that.

We talk about self discipline and this is a great point, Jenny, because we talk about self discipline a lot or, you know, I want to make smarter choices and build healthy habits in my life. And usually that comes with. A lot of times it's with eating and with the physical components like you were describing, which does factor into our attention levels a lot. But I don't think we've asked ourselves this question enough of what new habits and practices, healthy ways and new ways of living life do I need to create so that I'm living a kind of more of a disciplined life? Or at least I'm choosing to make healthier choices when it comes to what I'm paying attention towards instead of just filling myself with the junk, what decisions am I going to make so that I'm making healthier choices about the ways that I'm spending my attention? And how do I start really reining this in how do I start making these conscious choices instead of my phone making that choice for me? And so I think it is a distinction that we really do need to focus in on.

And now that's even going to be an edge and an advantage because it's becoming so hard for people to do that. That in doing that, in building the skill that you're teaching in this book. Listen to your day. That will give us an edge. I also thought it was interesting how you referenced the show Chef's Table, and I have so many friends who've gotten into it. I haven't watched it, which is crazy because I know I would love it. You say that you noticed a pattern amongst the many chefs that they feature. Can you tell us what your observation was from watching all the episodes you did?

It's a pretty classic story that you see in almost every episode. It's that story of a chef that typically they study in, you know, France. They learn all the culinary techniques and they try to create a restaurant that really mimics the other famous chefs of the day trying to be another five star French chef. And they do this. And sure enough, within a year, two years, whenever it completely fails, they burn out. Nobody comes to the restaurant. It feels like a fake. It feels like they're being an imposter. And so they have that kind of going into the desert moment. A lot of them will end up going back home to that place they were trying to escape from. But then they start realizing the power of their, what I call into metaphor speak, everybody's signature sauce. But in these chefs, it's really their signature sauce. You know, their signature flavor is really rooted in their home, in their place. They grew up in their story, in paying attention to the world around them and the ingredients and the resources that they have that is unique to their experience, that only they can really showcase. And they kind of feel this calling, that, wow, I really can see it now. I can hear it. I can see now my path and my calling as a chef to create a flavor that really tells a story. And that's what a lot of these chefs are. They're storytellers. And I see that for us too. Even if you're not a master chef, it is what is your signature sauce? What are the ingredients that you're bringing together in your flavor to create a substance that the world really needs, that the world is hungry for, that the world is desperate for, that only you can provide. But you only get to that place if you make that choice of, okay, what are the ingredients how do I pay attention to these throughout the day to figure out what is that Mix the blend of strengths and skills and values and relationships. These are the things that I feel like goes into each of our signature sauce. You gotta watch the chef's table, Jenny. You'll love it. You'll be motivated, and it'll be a good use of your time.

I feel like I'll trade you one. Shout out to my friend Ron Friedman, previous guest of the pod. We'll put in the show notes. He told me about this movie, Delicious. You can get it on Amazon prime and it's so delightful and it does tell exactly this story. I'll just say he started out as a chef for very obnoxious French royalty in the Marie Antoinette era. And you see his journey as well of finding his signature sauce and making a very similar point. Another previous guest, Luke Burgess, shared in his book wanting that sometimes obsessing over Michelin stars just makes us miserable. And so you've said the same thing. Our signature sauce, it doesn't have to look like everyone else's and we don't need to be at the pinnacle or get some gold star. Someone else decides to award us the most fun might be in actually turning that down. Turning that away.

Yeah. And then you're really making a decision for. Yeah. The health of your soul and for something unique and different that is telling your story. And I think that's a profound way to go through life.

We'll be right back just after this.

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There's an episode of your podcast. You shared a really profound story. The episode is titled I'm a Failure and Why that's a lie. And I'm really fascinated by this, too, that sometimes success is almost as hard for our minds, our hearts, our spirits to process as what we quote, unquote, failure. You've always been so open and honest in your writing, all of your books. Everything you do is so transparent and funny. You have this gift of humor, but, like, you're so open about all your foibles and failures along the road and really showing that it's a mess in the kitchen. Like, you're really good at that so that people don't get the wrong idea. Even seeing your family cavorting around resorts in the commercial, smiling, laughing. You're all gorgeous, but you're so open. Can you tell a little story from this episode? Because I know it really landed with you, too, of sometimes, even when we get the thing that we think will make us successful, it doesn't guarantee any level of happiness.

Oh, yes. Was that the story of Searching for Sugar Man?

Yes.

Did I talk about that in that episode?

The director.

Gosh, that's one of my favorite. Have you seen that documentary, Jenny?

No, I've got to do that one too.

Oh, my gosh. Movie night. Okay, you gotta move that above chef's table.

Okay.

I love chef Table, but Searching for Sugarman, you probably know, I probably have given away too much. If you don't know about it, it's even better if you watch it without knowing.

Too much homework for all of us. I'll put it in the show notes.

It's the classic story of basically a quote unquote, failed artist in the 70s, Sixto Rodriguez is his name. He releases albums, they flop. And he goes through that process of, well, I failed. And he goes back to doing manual labor in Detroit. Just hard, a hard life. But he doesn't realize that his albums are a gigantic hit in South Africa and they're really speaking into the revolution of apartheid. And so he doesn't realize, like, how big of a success he is. You know, it's that whole, like, you know, you don't know where the ripples are going. You don't know where your work will end up. You don't know 10 years from now whose life you're going to save. And so it's a really powerful example of that, of someone who thought he was a failure, but then you realize what a profound success, quote, unquote, he was. Then the crazy realization for me and what I talk about in that podcast episode was the director, Malik Bendajul, is he had a crazy battle to make the documentary happen. He went through tons of obstacles. I believe he had his first cut of the documentary and he showed it to his investors and they completely pulled his funding. They said, this is crap. We're not investing any more money in this. Sorry. And so he had to edit the whole thing on his own. He did all the graphics on his own. I mean, for years he worked at this. It was this labor of love trying to tell Sixto Rodriguez's profound story. But then the documentary comes out, it finally comes to fruition, and his wildest dreams come true for the director. He wins best director, he wins an Oscar for best documentary, really becomes the hit the IT director of the time. He's young, he's good looking, Everybody wants him to work on their project. So that's why I was so incredibly shocked when just about a year later, I saw that headline hit of that Malik Bendajul had tragically committed suicide, that he had stepped in front of a subway. I couldn't believe it. I was shocked. And so I started reading all the interviews, all the accounts I could of what happened. It's hard to fully wrap our minds and hearts and why. What was the reasoning behind somebody taking their own life? But his friends from Malik Bendajul just felt like the weight of that success, the pressure. He was feeling anxious. He was losing his kind of core friendships. He was traveling to LA a lot. He was losing that rootedness. It just became too much. He never felt like he could pull off an amazing success like that again. He felt like he'd really hit kind of his peak and so he ended his life. And so that was that crazy juxtaposition of this story of Six Toe Rodriguez and then the director that shared that story and this idea that we were so quick to label something a success or failure, when really I feel like we should throw those words just out of our dictionary. Like, we really shouldn't even use them.

I agree.

Because I think you've probably realized too, Jenny, like the things that we thought were a failure in the moment, like we're super embarrassed about those ended up being like the most life changing moments that really set the path to our purpose in a profound way. And then it was those moments that we thought, like, oh, this is a success, like, oh, I'm getting the TV show, right? Or I'm getting that big interview or whatever it is that then leads to nothing. Like, it wasn't really a success at all. And so I think we got to throw those words out because, yeah, it's way further than that. We only can really see success and failure through the lens of eternity. And we can't do that from our limited lens right now. So it kind of frees us up too to say, you know what, I don't need to hold so much weight on can I showcase this success on social media or not? Because we can just throw those words out of our dictionary entirely.

Hear, hear. I agree. I second that motion to throw them out. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that story. It really is so tragic when that happens. It reminds me, as you were telling it, of Mark Manson on the Diary of a CEO. Said that the year after his book became a mega bestseller, Subtle Art of Not Giving an F. That was his life dream. His life dream was to be a New York Times bestselling author. And the year after, he said, was one of the hardest of his life because for so many reasons, he no longer had this big motivating goal. He was worried. Could he replicate that success? Was it a fluke? Is he a fraud? Like all these thoughts came rushing in the other side. And I know this is kind of a little pivot from the conversation about focus and listening to our day, but I also think it's not judging our day. And I think that's something you're so good about, highlighting that if we listen and be present. I love how you put it, the judgment we'd have to have the lens of all of eternity because our lives keep unfolding and how could we call something good or bad when we don't know where it's leading?

And then we can find fulfillment in the richness that is each day and not in the outcomes or accomplishments, but just in the beauty and the joy and the life and the amazing things that now our eyes and ears are attuned to. That's why even in my practice now, I go on a hike, I work for a few hours and then I go on a 45 minute hike. I have to spot this routine and that is a part of my practice now. And that's something that I do for my mental health, my spiritual health, my emotional health, my physical health. It's like a no brainer now. I just cherish that time and I don't listen to anything. I just go and I hear and it's just such a grounding experience where I can feel worried and anxious when I start that hike. And then by the end, just none of that stuff I was worried about feels as important because I feel like I've kind of touched in on what is really actually important. We all need to build those practices and habits. Because if we're not enough with less in our lives, we'll never be enough with more either. We all know that. We've all seen the books come out and the reviews and the book sales. Like none of it's ever enough. No book deal, no marriage, no kids, no puppy. Like none of it's ever enough in and of itself. But it's really that, the process, the beauty, the details, being just in tune to what is important. And I feel like it roots us in a world that is just trying to cut our roots out from under us. I feel like far too often you.

Give so many ideas in the book, but if you could leave listeners with just one experiment to be more rooted after they finished listening to this episode, what would it be?

The last half of the book or last third? I talk about mindset models, which were for me just a fun way to almost play a game. It's almost like you're role playing your day to kind of get out of your own perspective and lens and say, you know, I talk about like the entrepreneurial mindset model. So even if you don't feel like you're an entrepreneur, it's like, well, today I want you to think like one and I want you to pay attention like one. And I want you to see your problems like an entrepreneur would, which was is maybe like, well, maybe my problems are like exciting because they could lead to an opportunity, an invention, a business idea, something I can help. So I give these ideas in the book of we can even play these games, so to speak, and practice different ways of paying attention like a monk does, like a farmer, like a teacher, investigator. Which was really helpful for me because it kind of pulled me out of my own existence, so to speak, or pulled me out of my own just routine and gave me a new lens to say, you know what, this is actually profound to really just focus into my attention to one thing today. So don't feel like you have to see everything, hear everything. It's really about narrowing our focus and paying attention to what is important to you. And so I guess that's a question we all have to ask then, is what is important to you? And asking ourselves that question when we wake up and setting the course of our day each day. And I think it'll be a fruitful life that we can live if we start setting those practices in place.

I love that. I love that. Yeah. In free time I say, what's your job today? It's not what you think. Our job doesn't have to be what we think it is what we think we're assigned what we think we have to do.

That's great.

Oh, thank you so much, Paul. It's such a joy to have had our winding pivot paths these last almost 15 years. Where do you want to send people? Of course, to go buy a copy of Listen to your day, the life changing practice of paying attention. Anywhere else?

Sure. They can still come to my website, allgrownup.com it's still going Giroan, like you said, all grown up, like you're groaning in pain. And people could get free chapters from all my books there. I don't know if you've done this for everybody else, Ginny, but I feel very special and honored because I think we've realized. I think you've endorsed all five of my books.

Oh, my gosh. Yay.

For over 10 years. So if you want to see the Ginny stamp and Ginny writes the best endorsements.

Oh, my God.

She doesn't just mail in those endorsements like, they are well thought of. They're personal. So you are like the best at being intentional. Even something like that, which is cumbersome sometimes. So I really appreciate you.

I agree strongly. I need to read the whole book. Yeah, I do. I do. There are some people that are like, great, can you write the blurb for me and then I'll sign off?

Yeah. We won't say names of.

But you're right. You're so intentional about it and I really appreciate that, too.

I'm so honored that I get to blurb every book. It's such an honor and a joy. I'm always excited when I hear a new one. Just to give you all a sense of Paul's writing, He said, my new Year's start has looked less like a jet taking off and more like that old rickety wooden train car that you move one slow pump at a time. That's my year, too. I said I'm a snail on a turtle's back. We both love a good metaphor.

Metaphors are the best.

They really are. They're everything. Oh, my goodness. So fun. Let's do it again. Please write your next book and bring another being into your house. It could be a dog, a snail, a turtle, and then we'll do this again.

Thanks, Jenny. I would love to. And yeah, no more kids. That's going away, so it's going to have to be on the animal front. Four kids is like, how about an alpaca? Yeah, sure. To carry all the kids. Yeah. I mean, we're making a farm and just we need something to transport the kids.

So funny. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, Paul. And thank you for listening everybody.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to, and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes for from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter @jennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.