318: The Beauty of Late Bloomers with Jenna Valovic

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I feel like there's really a counter narrative to be told about the success of the late bloomer. And often late bloomers have a very unique set of skills to offer that people who've had perhaps an easier trajectory to finding success just don't have.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of the Only that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast. If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Welcome back Pivoters. You are in for a special treat today with today's guest, Jenna Valavik. Jenna is such a special person. We connected many years ago through Google where she's worked for nearly a decade, most recently in executive recruiting in parallel to running her own coaching practice. Jenna is a woman of many talents. She's a Certified Professional Coactive Career Coach. Her specialty is bringing an open mind and holistic lens and helping clients build a life that feels impactful, aligned and fully in integrity. She's also one of our Pivot coaches. I'm proud to say we'll put all these links in the show notes and holds a Master's degree in Leadership and Organizational Development with a background in positive psychology, breath work, and and Vinyasa Yoga. Welcome to the show, Jenna.

Thank you so much Jenny. I'm so happy to be here.

I've always loved our conversations and back when I was still running the Life After College blog, you wrote this great article called Lessons from a Late Bloomer. If it's okay with you, I would love to read the two paragraph intro. How does that sound? Absolutely okay, because this just completely sets the tone. I really can't wait to hear more about your passion for this topic of late bloomers. So you write. At age 25, I found myself seated across from a recruiter who glanced disapprovingly at my resume before informing me that my career trajectory was too eclectic and unusual to succeed in corporate America. It took me years before I finally came to realize that I was neither alone nor a failure. On the contrary, I was simply what's commonly referred to as a late bloomer. One of many who often progressed in work and life a bit slower than their peers, but whose results are no different once they reach their peak. So I'm wondering, it's kind of full circle that you work in recruiting now.

So true.

And yet that recruiter who threw shade, it can be so disorienting at 25. I don't know who wouldn't take that personally as like a personal shortcoming. So when did you realize you weren't alone and you weren't the problem? There is such a thing as a late boomer.

I think that it really took getting to a point where I considered myself to be successful, that I truly believed that I was okay. When I had that conversation with the recruiter, I took it as a blanket statement, judgment on me as a person. And I remember I came away from that conversation truly convinced that I had unequivocally ruined my life at 25. Like it was over. And I have always felt sort of like I was among the last set of my peers to find my way professionally. But when I came to work at a company that I was really proud of and get to know people from a lot of different backgrounds and understand that one of the things big impressive companies hire for is often actually people who have many skills and talents. So individuals who are not just particularly strong in one area, but the entire package of who that person is. And it was then that I sort of thought back to high school when I got the award for being a Renaissance woman. And I thought about how many people are measuring themselves against what our culture tells us in sexy and desirable. All of those 40 under 40 lists and people who are considered prodigies from a young age, I feel like there's really a counter narrative to be told about the success of the late bloomer. And as I started working with clients who fell into that category, I discovered that often late bloomers have a very unique set of skills to offer that people who've had perhaps an easier trajectory to finding success just don't have.

I love that you were voted Renaissance woman in high school. And isn't that so interesting that your high school peers saw that in you? You must have had so many varied interests. I'm a little curious what they were at that age. But then, as you said, society, culture, especially this hard driving American ethos, makes it seem like it needs to Be so linear. And I'm with you. All those 30 under 30 lists and you feel aged out of things by the time you're 31, or in your case, even 25. And you said in the article that your college roommate was what you've come to term as a straight arrow, knowing from a young age she wanted to be a doctor and never wavering, whereas you have taken a more circuitous route, maybe, but according to who? Even that random recruiter when you're 25. So I would want to know, how'd you get the Renaissance moniker? What did you love?

I think it was probably a combination of sort of being a generalist. I was a jack of all trades, master of none. I was in a lot of school plays and I was the editor in chief of the literary magazine. I just wanted to kind of like dip my hands into a little bit of everything. And that's how many people are. And we're really sort of discouraged from doing that. As a culture, we're really more focused on drilling down into a particular area and becoming a SME, you know, a subject matter, expertise. And that's where we're taught our value lies. And I actually believe, and I've experienced this in the individuals I've worked with, both as colleagues and as clients, that what's really most valuable is someone who can see the bigger picture because they can pull in a little bit of this discipline and then a little bit of that. They're well read, they have a lot of different interests and connections and touch points. Those are the people that really have the most to say, you know, in a more well rounded perspective. I am all in favor of bringing the Renaissance man and woman archetype back.

How do those types convey the fullness of who they are in often a career system that does revolve around resumes and, you know, you've worked on all sides. You have your own personal experience, you have coaching clients and working in recruiting. We all know that crush of trying to stand out in a sea of resumes. So how do the late bloomers or the Renaissance people tell that story? Knowing that often the first point of contact is this linear report card, what it feels like often a resume is.

I think a lot of it comes down to how I generally advise clients to get a job, which is not applying to the rote list of posted roles that you see on online application systems. There's certainly no harm in that if that's what feels good to someone. But in addition to that, I'm a huge proponent of networking and cold emailing and putting your passion for the company and for the work out there. And then in my mind, once my client has gotten the interview that you basically like, made it through the first major checkpoint, and once you get the interview, then you focus on the narrative that you tell. And the good news is that we're all in control of our own stories. You do have to work within the confines of what fits on a piece of paper. But once you're in front of someone, it's your decision how you're going to present the information and how you're going to tell the story of how you got from point A to point B. A lot of employers can recognize when they're across from someone how valuable it is to have someone who's actually a multi potentialite, as Emily Wapnick would say. So someone who has dipped their toe into a lot of different areas and demonstrated learnability, which I think is something that as a recruiter is taken into account. Perhaps not as much as it should be, but that sort of sense of it's not necessary for someone to have done apples to apples what we're looking for them to do going forward, but rather, have they demonstrated a natural curiosity? Have they demonstrated grit, resilience, the willingness and desire to learn all of those qualities? And I think that when you're in an interview setting, that's the opportunity for those things to really shine through.

What about when you get the dream job? There's still compare and despair within, let's say, a corporate role. I mean, certainly in the entrepreneurial realm as well. But it's like some people land their job or they get into corporate and they're so motivated and you just watch them climb so fast or like skyrocket, get promoted over and over. And I can imagine that some people must experience, and I felt this at different points. I've probably felt both sides of it, at least when I was at Google, where you're almost a late bloomer within the company compared to the peers that you started with. And it's like, oh, so and so is now a director of xyz. Org crushing it. And then maybe someone else has a more winding path even within the company. So I would imagine there's a sense of, but I should be happy here or I should just be happy I have a job. And yet it can be so hard not to compare to other people on their trajectory and how fast they accelerate. And who knows why? We all have different personalities too. But how do you reconcile that feeling of being either a renaissance person or sort of a late bloomer within a company.

What it comes down to is really working with your unique skill sets and knowing yourself. Part of the value in labeling someone a late bloomer, say, is really what it does for your sense of who you are as a person and how you understand how you can operate at your best and go forth and be successful. So, for example, if you know that you like to have your hands in a lot of different areas and you're going to be bored if you're just climbing that ladder and focused on what's the next run, what do I need to do in order to get promoted? I think to some extent it's about really making a decision. What is most important to you? Drilling down into your values and saying, okay, is it the curiosity factor? Is it the opportunity to learn something new? Is it actually salary or growth that I'm motivated by and making a decision from that choice point? And if you are most oriented around, say, growth and you find that other people are growing faster than you, I think it's very important to look around and say, okay, how can I gather information on people who are different than myself? How can I see if, for example, I am a late bloomer and I'm surrounded by straight arrows? And that seems to be what it takes to be successful in this realm. Okay, let's do some qualitative analysis, let's pull out some stories and see what the common denominator is. And I am a big believer in choice. So I think once you identify these are the qualities that these people have, this is what they've had to do in order to get there. There's a certain element of, I do truly believe that most anyone can get to where they want to go, but it's a matter of one is it worth it to you if you are in effect going against your nature or trying to be something that you're not, is it actually in service to your long term goal? And beyond that, is it going to be in service to your happiness? So that's sort of one thing to think about. And beyond that, I think it also really comes down to.

If you do want to do it in your own way, finding ways to sort of extract the values and extract the lessons learned, but apply it using your unique framework. And for that I do generally recommend either working with a coach or a trusted mentor, even a friend who understands the business. One of my favorite expressions you've probably heard me use it in, you can't read the label when you're inside the jar. So getting that external feedback. But the final piece that I would say to that when everything seems to be falling through the cracks and it doesn't feel like you're able to move forward. There's a quote that I love, which is, when a flower doesn't bloom, you don't fix the flower, you fix the environment. So one of the ways that I've seen clients really fail to be successful is if they're simply in an environment that is not supportive or is antithetical to their nature. And again, that's a choice point in saying, okay, maybe I need to take a hard look at making some tough decisions and making a change.

I love that line, when a flower doesn't bloom, you don't fix the flower, you fix the environment. That's really powerful.

It is. I love that one.

We'll be right back just after this.

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In pivot. I quote, it's attributed to Lao Tzu, but nature doesn't rush a flower or nature doesn't rush a tree. Something like that. And you would never look at a tree and be like, grow faster. What's wrong with you? Can't you see that the other tree has already grown up already? I like how you talk about the benefits of this different path. Like if you're not on the straight arrow path. I mean, I love that line too. Can't read the label from inside the jar. Sometimes, though, when you're the one that's confused and inside the jar, I don't know. I mean, when I'm in those positions, I don't think, oh, it's all good. It's all in perfect timing. It's like the future feels fuzzy and there's no guarantee, you know? I love when you and other videos on YouTube will give examples of people that Bloom late in life like Julia Child or Martha Stewart. But it can be so nerve wracking when you're the one on the winding road going, but I'm not guaranteed, like how do I know for sure that I need to keep going or need to make a change, need to change the environment. Has there been a time that you had an aha moment around this or a breakthrough that at least allowed you to accept being in that uncertainty?

A lot of it is learned in hindsight. So thinking through past times in your life, or at least for me, thinking through past times in my life when I was absolutely convinced for one reason or another that I wasn't ever going to get to where I needed to be, and then looking at what the outcome was and often where you end up is so much better than you ever could have imagined and so much better than even your most audacious dream for yourself. So I think that's the value add in the great unknown, which is terrifying because of course we're not promised anything, we're not promised tomorrow, we're not promised success. But recognizing that, that also creates space for us to have a life that is even bigger and better than our wildest imagining.

Is there a time where that was helpful for you to look with hindsight where maybe you were discouraged in the moment and then the hindsight exercise was helpful? I'd be curious to know.

When I first moved to New York City, I was initially taking classes at NYU and I quickly realized that I needed to get a job, like pronto. I had blown through my savings and the easiest way to get a job while I was taking classes was to work as an executive assistant. And I was working with recruiters, including the recruiter previously referenced. And I remember I would put on this suit and it felt horrible. I could not find a suit that felt right to me and I would just trudge from one interview to another and it felt like something was truly wrong with me, but I couldn't figure out what it was because I was getting feedback left and right that I wasn't the right fit. But it was for all different reasons. For example, I interviewed at a very high profile finance firm and they said, somewhat shockingly, she clearly doesn't understand the culture because she didn't wear heels.

No. Yeah, so annoying.

Coupled with we appreciate the fact that she's blonde and thin, which would never fly nowadays. This was 10 plus years ago, but another company told me she's wearing too much eyeliner. So things that in hindsight I'm really shocked and Appalled that this was the feedback, that we would even speak to women in this way, that we would allow this to be something that we were rated against. But I also would have experiences where I would go on interviews and it would seem to go really well. And they would say, we just don't believe that she wants to be an executive assistant. We looked at her background. She seems overqualified. So I felt like I was getting everything but the right opportunity and actually being honest with myself, I did not want any of those jobs. I was doing it out of a sense of perceived necessity. And sure enough, what ended up happening was that ultimately I got a call from a recruiter who worked for Google. And that was the call that actually led to me becoming a contractor and ultimately getting a job there, where I've been for almost a decade. And so when I was having that experience, all I perceived this as was a long hallway with all of these different doors, and they were all closed and locked. It felt. And in hindsight, I can see that nothing was opening up because it just wasn't the right fit. And I never in a million years would have dreamed what the future plan was that the universe had for me. It was definitely better than anything that I could have envisioned for myself at the time. And so I like to share that with clients just to remind them that I do truly believe that there are forces in the universe that we can't truly understand and that everyone is meant to live their best version of life and you have to stay open to it. And this doesn't mean certainly that things just come to us and we don't have to work for them. But to some extent, when everything feels like it's not working, often it's the.

Wrong door when there's so much friction. And it can be hard to know, especially when you're younger and earlier in your career, someone tells you these horrible comments, she's not wearing high heels. Too much or too little eyeliner. How you look. It can be so hard not to take that personally. I would have done the same thing of just, oh, I must have done this wrong, or I must not be a good fit, thinking there's something wrong with me, when really, hallelujah, you were spared from that environment, from going any further down that path. And even just the difference of a company that would comment on the fact that you weren't wearing high heels versus where you ultimately ended up working, company like Google, that's like, what is this person doing wearing high heels? You know, it's almost the opposite. And that does exist out there. You've said that one of the qualities of late bloomers is that they're often misunderstood. What do you mean by that?

The sad thing about being a late bloomer is, well, I think I'm going to actually pull out a Malcolm Gladwell quote to answer that question. He shares that on the road to great achievement, the late bloomer will often resemble a failure. That precisely sums it up because when you're a late bloomer, often all you know is that things aren't working out and you're watching your peers and you're looking to your left and you're looking to your right and everyone else seems to have it figured out. And for whatever reason you might be trying as hard as you possibly can and things just aren't aligning. Late bloomers often present as in the eyes of society, unsuccessful, unremarkable. Even things said about famous late bloomers like everybody thought he was a loser. Really, really shocking. Things that really reflect on how society views achievement and the expectation that if we're going to be successful it is predetermined and it will magically appear by the age of 10 or the age of 15. And if it hasn't, it's all over.

Thank you for that Gladwell quote and I'll link to that New Yorker article in the show notes. It's so true that sometimes it's perceived as failure or whatever you are, Myers Briggs, sometimes like the ENFPs will get a bad rap or the sevens on the enneagram. Like people whose personality type is by nature more than diverse, more Renaissance y, you know, and that sometimes they'll get a bad rap also of being not making a decision or non committal or doing too many things. You even said earlier in the conversation, jack of all trades, master of none. It's like that's yet another way that we kind of disparage someone that hasn't done a really deep dive in any one area.

Failure.

On that topic of failure, I mean of course we know like there's no such thing as failure and it's all learning experience. But is there a different way that late bloomers can gauge for themselves whether they're on a track that's aligned for themselves or not? Like given that the outside world doesn't really conform to their path and their version of exploring. Definitely. I mean, I'm just curious, how do you discern for yourself when you're on the right track, even if it doesn't look like everybody else is, versus needing to make a change for yourself, like even within this larger context of what you describe as a late bloomer. But I'll say you're pretty young still yourself, so maybe you're even being hard on yourself with the late bloomer label.

Funny, Jenny. Going into this interview I actually looked up just to verify if there was a certain age where we could say like, okay, this person is officially a late bloomer, this person. And not so much there's no age because it's all subjective, it's all self defined how someone feels against their peer set. But thank you for saying that. The most important metric of success in understanding yourself I have found over time is really tuning into your intuition. And that sounds perhaps a little bit woo woo. And you might be thinking, how do I access my intuition? In my experience, it's something that shows up for many of us in our bodies. If you are, say in a career, working at a company and you're going into the office and you feel a deep sense of heaviness in your chest or that kind of trademark like claw kind of feeling in your stomach, it just feels like you're trying to digest nails or something. These are cues that many clients that I've worked with are having on a regular basis and just sort of dismissing. So I think it's easy to say like, oh, you know, I'm anxious, the world is hard. We have so many stories, including that I should just kind of grit my teeth and get through it because I think quite honestly that's what our parents generation did. And I think the beauty in the world that we have today is that there is a lot of opportunity to move around and try different things without the same penalty that there once was. I've heard you talk on your podcast previously about how people used to stay in roles for five, maybe even 10 years and now often it's one or two. It's much more expected that people will have some flexibility in terms of playing around with different fits. But to come back to your original question, I think that it's really tuning into one, your values. So getting really clear on say the top five values that you want to honor and thinking about how those are showing up in your current situation. And if you're really struggling to find any way that your current role connects to your values, we might call it eight big red waving flags, it's time to rethink this. So that's sort of the logic piece and then the being piece, the somatic piece is really tuning into your body because that will tell you everything you need to know. I had a client who told me he was considering two different job opportunities and the night that he was considering the second one he had debilitating insomnia. He just could not sleep and he knew, he just knew like with his own inner knowing that it was related to that second opportunity and he used that self knowledge to pick the other option. So I think it's being willing to really look inward and see like what's feeling aligned for you versus what I did earlier in my career and a lost late bloomer, which I think many people are prone to do when they feel a bit unsure of next steps is crowdsourcing, where you kind of take a poll of all your friends and you say, okay, what are the top five careers you think I should have? What are my top 10 skill sets? While there is certainly value in feedback and gathering information about yourself, the number one thing that I wish I could say to most late bloomers is to trust yourself and that on some level you already know. You might not know what the path is like five steps from now, but you know for right now if what you're doing is aligned and in integrity with yourself.

Yes, I so know that. Crowdsourcing, like should I stay or should I go? Well, no one can tell you that. And what you said at the end is so powerful, you probably already know. Sometimes it's just hard to admit it, especially if we don't know what the exit strategy looks like.

We'll be right back just after this.

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Before we wrap up, I have another maybe conceptual question. In a sense, we're still in our hustle culture by Even labeling it a late bloomer. Like, we're still on the time space continuum and we're still almost saying that we're, like, expecting everyone to bloom. And my friend Kathy Onetto, she has a podcast, Sustainable Ambition. It's like some people are really ambitious and then other people aren't, or at least in the way that we would gauge from the outside. So they're not Julia Child, they're not Martha Stewart. Like, there's not a blooming moment, even if it comes late. Like, in a way, it's still part of the paradigm of success. And so I'm just curious to get your take on what about the people who just either aren't that ambitious, Isn't that okay, too? Or they're like, they're blooming in an inner way, like a spiritual, intellectual, fulfilled way. It's not even labeled blooming by the outside world. It's just still would be seen as wandering or dabbling or whatever. There's not even a late moment. It's just how they are.

You make a really good point. It is absolutely not up to individuals out in the world to label us certainly as late bloomers, but to label us even in terms of, like, are we achieving our full potential? Are we being successful? I think all that really matters is whether we feel like we're living in the way that we want to be. And when I talk about late bloomers, I think about it not just in terms of career. I mean, certainly we're leaning heavily into that, given the topic at hand today. But I have had clients who are late bloomers in love who really, really want to meet their person, really want to be married, and it just hasn't happened yet or really haven't gotten to a point of optimum health. And they're sort of. It's a stuck place. You can be a late bloomer in any variety of areas, and really the only metric of success is whether your life is feeling good to you. And so I think it's very important to distinguish. It's not at all about how it looks. It's not at all about fame and worldwide acclaim and who knows you and how much money you make, or any of those things. I think it's really about everyone living the life that feels like the highest expression of themself, and that is an experience more than it is something that can be relayed on a resume or even in terms of how someone's speaking about themselves. I think it's more important to focus on the innermost experience and build from there.

Here, here. That's so well said. And I'm so glad you brought up these other life areas too because I was such a late bloomer in relationships. I felt like I was in kindergarten and everyone else had their master's degree. What was I not getting? I was always single. I never had a date to any of my friends weddings. Not a single date, a single time, like perpetually single. And so it's true, like I can connect so much to that feeling even in that arena. I remember one time my dad said his dad might have even said it to him something like, love and romance are relationships. It's the place you can be farthest behind and catch up the quickest. We never know what's going to happen and talk about nonlinear. So just thank you for bringing that in and really reminding us that it does not matter what it looks like. It's on the inside and are you aligned? Do you feel connected to the way you're living every day? It has nothing to do with what it looks like.

One of the things that your experience reminds me of is part of being a late bloomer is the fact that you don't take anything for granted. I remember when you did find love, you were very clear on what you wanted. You did not question it, you were grateful to have found it and you really kind of leapt into it with like an open heart. And I feel like that is one of the gifts of being a late bloomer in that area of life is you kind of knew what to do with it when you found it versus often people for whom it comes a bit more easily tend to not get as excited, tend to sort of take.

It for granted in any area. That's so true. I know you've written about that too. Where thank you for reminding me of this piece of it that sometimes like when you have been on a real journey, you are able to appreciate it so much. It's like exactly how hard it was makes you appreciate it so much more. You said it. Many late bloomers find success to be even more savory when it comes after waiting years and doing so much analysis. And that's true. And then like the experience of not having it. For me, let's say when it came to dating relationships is like that feeling is deeply ingrained of what that feels like. And also was deeply ingrained how to be single and totally self sufficient and kind of like fearless about whatever happens, knowing I can be alone. I don't have to like hop from one relationship to the next. I never had that option like, that was never my life. So it also ingrained some really positive traits of I'll be okay no matter what. And so I really appreciate you reflecting that back. Thank you.

Oh, absolutely.

So, as we wrap up, what would be one experiment that you would encourage listeners to try, especially if they connect to the Slate Bloomer sense of self in a certain area of their life? What could be an experiment to try in the next week or two?

Ooh, I like that. Kind of reminds me of your pivot framework, sort of running test cases. If someone has a sense of something that might be a compelling next step for them and they're perhaps too afraid to try it, or this is something I commonly encounter feeling like you don't meet the qualifications and it doesn't make sense to even kind of throw your hat into the ring. I like to draw from this. I believe it's a term that I learned actually in maybe English class many years ago called willful suspension of disbelief. So I like to have clients put their knowledge and their story around what's possible for them to the side, kind of park it over there and say, okay, if I thought that anything was possible for me, absolutely anything, what would I go after? And then build an experiment from there. And so starting out, it doesn't have to be anything dramatic, it doesn't have to be involve completely changing your life, but carving out a small subset of your week, maybe even an hour, just to take some steps in that direction and notice as you're doing it, say the step is, I've always wanted to have a public speaking career. It has nothing to do with my day job. It doesn't really make sense. Somewhat of a cliche example, but signing up for Toastmasters, taking a leap, saying, I'm going to try this, and most importantly, then see how it feels in your body. Because every step that you take that is closer to the life that you're meant to have, closer to a life that's in integrity. I'm pulling that word heavily from Martha Beck's work. She has a lot of great things to say about integrity, but really focusing on how you're feeling because you will know if you're getting closer. And often when we will run an experiment, we will notice, like close, maybe, but not quite aligned. So being willing to, as we say, pivot and look at other things, adjacent things, or perhaps even if it really doesn't feel aligned, making a radical leap and saying, okay, now I'm going to try this other thing, being willing to be fearless and resilient and dedicated to learning what feels good in your body and what feels most aligned in your soul and I think they're going to give you the most bang for your buck. And I like to create a sort of playfulness around it so that there's no pressure. It's more sort of like I'm going to play with this this week. Let's see where this leads.

That is beautifully said. I love the playfulness of noticing what feels good in your body and aligned in your soul. Like oh yes, that's it, that's it. Where can people connect with you if they want to learn more and keep in touch?

There is a comment form for people to email me on my website. Also happy to connect with anyone on LinkedIn. Happy to talk to anyone. Always excited to meet late bloomers and also people who are more in the straight arrow category but really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you today. And you know I am such a fan. I have always so appreciated our friendship and just our connection is really special. So thank you for having me on.

Well, right back at you. It was just a joy to meet you from the very first day. I think it was 2015. I was doing a Google training and there you were. So I feel the exact same way. And also listeners, you can learn more. And if you want to sign up through Pivot coaching, that's@pivotmethod.com coaching Jenna I'll put that in the show notes as well. Thank you so much Jenna for sharing your wisdom in this area and most of all like the silver linings of late bloomers because I think you highlight those so incredibly well. Thank you and big thanks listeners for being here.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.

Foreign.

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