319: Who’s Sitting in the Board Room of Your Brain? with Adrian Klaphaak

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Basically, it helps to understand first, what are the parts inside of you that are influencing your thinking, your actions, and then it takes each part and it helps you to explore and get to know and be in better relationship with that part so that it's not just motivating you towards unconscious directions, but that you're actually understanding what is this part really about? What is it trying to do for me? And ultimately, how can I incorporate the positive intention of this part?

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast. If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Welcome back, Pivoters. I'm so excited to be back today with our recurring guest host, Adrian Clapack, AKA my first career coach. He's a coach, purpose guide, entrepreneur, therapist, founder of a path that fits career and life coaching, and now multi episode podcaster here on the Pivot Pod. Adrian's coaching approach is holistic and balance between getting results and a quest for meaning and fulfillment. Adrian, welcome back to the show.

Thank you, Jenny. It's great to be here again. And just one point of clarification. And I love how you call me a therapist, but I am not in fact a licensed therapist, although I have done everything I can to train and try to move in that direction because of how much respect I have for the field and how much a part of coaching, I do feel like therapy can be and often is. So just wanted to clarify.

Thank you for clarifying that. And in fact, don't you have therapists in your family? Like we're going to pull in some therapy tools a little bit today mixed with coaching, but I feel like you're surrounded by therapists.

I'm surrounded by therapists. A lot of my very dear friends are therapists. My mom has been a marriage and family therapist for 45 years or something like that. My dad's a psychiatrist. So it kind of feels like people are in the family lineage helping People in various ways.

I feel that the inevitable next question is, what were your dinner conversations like? I know you have a sister as well, who does your parents leave their work at the office. Right? Right. Or were you constantly, like, diving into your inner world?

Oh, constantly diving into our inner world. And I didn't even know it at the time because it was all I knew, my family, growing up. But later, when going to college and starting my career as a management consultant, and then even later after that, beginning my journey into coaching, when I finally got to coaching, it was like, oh, I know this. This is what I know. This is also natural and familiar. Like, this is my place. This is where I belong. So it did feel like going home, I guess, when I found coaching. But, yeah, our dinner table conversations, my parents were often talking about the clients that they were working with and what issues were coming up. And they wouldn't use names because it's all confidential, but they would consult each other. So my sister and I would be listening to it. And I don't remember us sort of. We weren't like, chiming in or giving advice or anything like that. But it was the lens through which my parents and ultimately my sister and I saw the world and still do. So I kind of feel like I was trained, like, had 20 years of experience in coaching and psychology before I even ever took my first coaching course. So that was useful.

That's incredible. I just picture you like a fish dropped back into the ocean, switching from management consulting, where this is not front and center, and then finding coaching where you're like, oh, this is what I grew up doing. And just imagine, talk about 10,000 hours, just how many case studies or what would you do? Your parents asking each other. That's fascinating.

Right? And now the dinner table conversation with my sister, my mom and my dad and I all together, it's always about what's our inner journey like, what are we chewing on, working with, how are we growing, how are we challenged? And then, you know, sometimes about our work as well. But I feel like so much of it now is really about us sharing our own inner process and journey and the questions we're grappling with and then getting some great coaching and therapy from each other around it.

What a gift. That's just amazing. It's rare enough for a family to get along and let alone to everybody have these deep listening, introspection skills and be able to talk things through. It's just amazing.

All this is true. And like any family in any dynamic, you know, I think that the Place where it would get tough is when we're talking about our issues with each other. Right. It was like that was the place and still is, where it definitely requires all the tools and all the skills to navigate those places.

Well, we're going to have some fun today because we are pulling something out of my coaching tool belt. We both went to the same coach training through cti, and I didn't really know, actually, until speaking with you many, many years ago, that it even connects more deeply to really popular set of tools in the therapy world. So the prompt that I've given Adrian today, because we're thinking, what would be interesting for all of you listening? What could we talk about what's real right now? We're always looking for what's true in this moment, other than everything feeling like it continues to just be shaken up in the snow globe shakeup that we're all experiencing for years on end. So today, one of the most popular coaching exercises that I've ever done with clients that has helped me in so many ways, I've mentioned it in all three of my books, is something I call the boardroom in your brain. That if you have this almost cacophony of voices, who is sitting at the table? And my dad would correct me that the brain is the organization, the mind is where all the thinking happens. So technically, it should be your mind, but that doesn't fit the alliteration scheme that I want. So the question is, who's up there? And do you hire them intentionally? Or are some of them there by default? Are they inherited from growing up? Who are the voices? Who's speaking the loudest? What are they each motivated by? What are they afraid of? And then you are the CEO. You get the say at the end of the day, but. But it helps sometimes, especially when we're going through change or transition or a tough time, to just separate out what are all the voices that are influencing me? When I first learned this, it was all manner of inner critics. But over time, I've evolved it that they're all trying to be helpful in their own way. They're just kind of limited. So the homework that I gave to Adrian, like right before we hit record, is let's each share three of our current board members in our brain. And then the second half, we'll talk about who we want to hire. Who are three more that we want to intentionally hire and bring onto the board in the rest of this year. How does that sound, Adrian?

Sounds great. I'm happy we're doing this. I Want to invite everybody listening to do the same. So as I'm sharing my three current board members that are most active also for you all to think about, what is it for me? What are the three voices that I hear most strongly or in the language that I've learned? Parts.

Awesome.

What are the parts inside of you? Who are the parts inside of you that are speaking loudest?

You've also done nine months plus of a super deep dive into internal family systems. We'll get more into that in a future episode because it does really connect into this exercise today. I know we brought it up in one of our earlier conversations, but before we share who's on our boards, our respective boards, we would you mind just giving us the high level overview of how this relates to ifs?

IFS stands for Internal Family Systems. And it's a therapeutic model. And the idea is that we're all made up of various parts. You can think of them as sub personalities or parts works. And then at the center, at the core of each of us, but kind of beneath or above or just at the heart of all of this inner world that we all have, is a core self or a deeper self. You referred to this as the CEO. In IFS language, it's the capital S self. And this part ideally is who is leading the cacophony of voices inside of us.

And.

And IFS goes through the parts. Basically, it helps to understand first what are the parts inside of you that are influencing your thinking, your actions. And then it takes each part and it helps you to explore and get to know and be in better relationship with that part, so that it's not just motivating you towards unconscious directions, but that you're actually understanding what is this part really about? What is it trying to do for me? And ultimately, how can I incorporate the positive intention of this part into the way that I live my life and really go through that understanding of what each part is trying to do for you and get back to that. The self that really holds the deepest wisdom for how to live and be fulfilled and whole in your life.

We'll talk more about this in the deep dive episode. But were there any particular books or resources when you were first learning about this that you found most helpful?

I would recommend going to their website. I think it's selfleadership.org and looking at what their current offerings are. I jumped right into the extended training because I knew I wanted this toolkit and that training was amazing. So I highly recommend it.

Awesome. Okay, with that drum roll, please. Let's start with your three board members. And again, we both probably have many more, but what are the three that are speaking the most loudly these days?

Well, right now I feel overwhelmed with all that's happening in the world. Jenny, you described it as a snow globe shakeup. I also recently had my second child with my wife. And so we have a three month old and a four year old. So that is a beautiful heart melting chaos. And it's a lot. So in response to that state of being, being overwhelmed, what I noticed right now most strongly inside me, there's one voice that is trying desperately to figure it out. So I don't even know what to call this one. The figure it out. Maybe it's the analyst, but not quite, but something there. But what this part is doing and saying to me is like there's gotta be a way. You gotta be able to figure this out. If you can somehow connect some dots or get the right kind of help or make this change or that change or reorganize this or that, then you won't be overwhelmed anymore. And it's spinning its wheels, it's crunching the numbers, it's thinking strategically, analytical. And I don't feel like it's actually doing that well.

So that's one.

I often ask before you say the next one, if you could personify this character or this, this board member a little more. Like what are they wearing? What do they look like? Are they sitting at the table? Are they off in the corner? Like just put us in the room with this voice.

Yeah. This one is pacing around.

Okay.

Maybe it sits down at the computer and furiously types a little bit. And then it gets up and it's pacing. It gets out, goes outside, it gets a cup of tea. It's like it's everywhere. It doesn't sleep, it's going, going, going. Even when it's with its family or friends or going for a run or whatever, it's still there kind of spinning.

Yeah.

In the background. It's like that. You know, you hear the hard drive on your computer spinning when it's working really hard to try to figure it. Yeah. It's like got that kind of energy to it.

I picture kind of messed up hair and like a pencil behind both ears, a calculator, a laptop in the crook of an elbow. Lots of coffee. Like this one' their fifth cup of coffee of the day.

So that's that one. And then there's one that's saying just work harder, be more efficient, just more. Just keep going. Come back to the computer. Keep making the phone calls to organize family life. Keep going, going, going. Doesn't want me to rest. This is like the way through this overwhelm is if you just work hard enough and stay with it for long enough, you're gonna get to the light at the end of the tunnel. It's gonna be better through hard work. And what's the personification? This guy has a suit on and is like, the tie is too tight. It's a dirty suit at this point. He hasn't showered for a couple days, and easily. He's ragged, but he's still going.

When you were saying the one that wants you to work harder, I almost pictured an accountant. Tell me if I'm way off on any of these. I'm just throwing stuff out there.

Good intuition.

But I pict an accountant who's looking at the books. Whether it's your time or your money, whatever it is just like, more. Adrian, we need more. We need more.

It's not crunching.

Give us more. Trying to balance the books, but, like, demanding. Trying to work you harder. Got you on a treadmill. And he keeps raising that pace that the treadmill's at.

That's right.

Okay, who's your third?

The third one is. I don't even know who this is, but the message is, you gotta surrender. You gotta let go. You can't hold on this tight. You can't push this hard. This one's really in contrast to the other two previously mentioned. Figure it out and work harder. This one's like, you just really gotta surrender. You can't control everything. Let go. It's all gonna work itself out.

I love that you've got this one in there. What is this one wearing? What do they look like? How are they acting in the room?

I can't tell if this is kind of the monk vibe or if it's the hippie or if it's the beach bum kind of surfer. It's somewhere in the mixture of all of those three. I love it.

I've had all of those on my board in various years.

Nice.

Okay, I want to go back and ask you something that I have when I used to work with coaching clients would have them do, is also say each board member's primary fear and primary motivation. So the three I wrote down for you, if we could just give them a little nickname, is the figure outer, the do moreer, and the surrenderer. Maybe those could be our little shortcuts. So for each one, what's their primary motivation for you, and what's Their biggest fear.

So the figure it out. What is the primary motivation? What is it trying to do? It's trying to move me towards a state of peace. I would say something like that. It thinks that if it can figure everything out, design, organize, systems, architecture of life, then I will be able to relax and experience some peace. I won't be overwhelmed. I'm thinking, what's the opposite of overwhelm? I would say it's something like peace or calm or a feeling of I'm in control in a good way. Not micromanaging everything, but I'm in control. I'm confident that I can meet all the craziness of a day. So I think it's going towards peace at the deepest layer. I think that's what it wants.

And what is its biggest fear? The figure outer.

It gets afraid that if it's not trying to figure everything out that things won't work out well, it will all fall apart. Maybe that's the most extreme, deepest fear there. Maybe also very real one that maybe I'm even more in touch with on the day to day is just that I'm going to be stuck in this overwhelm. I'm going to be stressed. If it's not pushing through the stress, trying to figure things out, then I'll just remain stressed and overwhelmed. And that for me it's unpleasant, it's uncomfortable to be in a state of overwhelm for too long.

Yeah. So the day to day fear is just the kind of reaction like this is icky. I don't like this stress. I want to get out of it. And then the bigger fear is failure. If I don't figure it out, this is all going to fall apart.

Yes.

I'm hesitating. I want to ask you a fork in the road. The last thing I usually ask people about each one is what would you want to say to this board member? Do you want to do that now as we go through each one, or do you want to come back to what you, the CEO, would say at the end?

Let's try it right now and see how it goes.

So given the figure outers, everything you've described about him so far, what do you want to say to this board member?

I want to say I see how hard you're trying to organize, design, strategize a way so that I can feel more peace. And I really appreciate that. And you've been helpful. I know you're helpful. You do figure out some key, important things that really do make a difference. And right now I feel like it's too much. I also want to feel peace. I really do. I don't want to stay in this state of overwhelm for any longer than I need to. So what I'd like is I think what would be most helpful for me is if I could consult you when I really need your help. And I'm in the space of wanting to actively figure things out and strategize. So, like we have a meeting and it's got a start time and an end time. And then you give me a break, you take a rest and let me live out the ideas that we come up with. But that you don't keep chirping in all the time.

I love that. Beautiful. Beautiful.

Yeah.

Let's talk about the do moreer. What is their primary motivation for you and what's their primary biggest fear?

Well, the fear is the same, interestingly. It's like it's all going to fall apart if I don't keep working. If I don't keep pushing harder to check everything off the list, going faster, all of it, then I'm not going to get things done. It's all going to fall apart. I'm going to start experiencing some consequences. I won't get things I want. People will be pissed off or disappointed in me. In life and work, it's all encompassing. I'm going to drop some balls and I'm going to feel shitty. So maybe this one is also like, this is about shame. If I don't get everything done, then I'm going to feel bad about myself again. I think for me it goes back to feeling like I'm a failure. So this one, it's all going to fall apart. I'm going to feel like a failure. I'm going to feel bad. I'm going to be in the shame place.

Yeah. That's powerful. And this one's a little more personal. It's like if I don't do more, is that shame of I'm not doing enough? Maybe even I'm not enough.

I'm not enough. Yeah.

So the motivation would you say that's very similar? I know you said they're kind of all related.

Of course, I do think it's similar. I think the motivation is with this one is again, if it does enough, if it works hard enough, it will get into a new reality, a new space where I will feel more peace. Also feel a sense of accomplishment and success.

Yeah.

Which is real. And I think through that worth. So kind of like the opposite of like failure and shame. Is really feeling like I'm successful. I'm. I matter. Yeah, I'm important. And when I say that motivation and I feel it inside, I'm like, yeah, I want those things just like with that state of peace. So this is part of why I love ifs parts work. All of it is kind of. I feel like what we're doing is you're asking me these questions is I'm getting through the frustration, the sort of the most obvious inner experience of being, you know, frustrated and overwhelmed. And I'm getting into the positive intention, the thing that these parts are trying to accomplish for me. And it feels really different inside me. I don't feel so annoyed with the push. I feel like, oh, I get it. I know what you're doing and I want that too. And so there's more of a feeling of being allies or on the same team.

We'll be right back just after this.

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I love how you connected that the do moreer is working toward a vision of accomplishment and making a difference, making an impact however you define success. But they do want the best for you through your doing. What would you want to say to that board member right now?

I'm really in touch with the gratitude I feel for what it's doing. So I think the first thing I would say is thank you. I really do appreciate this part of me's work ethic and ability to show up to do hard things, to stay with something long enough for it to build into a meaningful accomplishment. So I've seen that throughout my life. I really appreciate it. It's brought a lot of Fulfillment. I think it's also helped me to use and express my potential, which has been really a deep, deep need for me and extremely meaningful to feel like I am using my gifts. And I get to see and know and feel the positive impact that they can have. So it has really brought a sense of worth. It's interesting. The fear is all about failure and feeling bad and worthless. And so it really has brought a sense of worth. And I know this part of me is. It's out of touch with the impact that it has on me. So I think what I'd want to say to it is thank you as I have. And then also, hey, I also want to let you know that there's a point at which I really start to hurt. You're too much. You're too strong. I'm tired. I'm exhausted. Like, my body hurts. I'm missing out on some of the joy that can be experienced in other parts of my life. And just like I've celebrated this part for helping me develop certain gifts, I feel like it's really stood in the way of me expressing other parts of myself that don't have to do with work accomplishment, but some of the more fun or creative passions that I love and enjoy pursuing outside of my life. From surfing to baking bread, making pottery, gardening. Like, I wish I had afforded myself more time to pursue those things.

Those might be future board members. The surfer ceramicist. Is that a word?

What do you call someone? That's it. Yeah. Potter, Ceramicist. Yep.

I also pick up that for the do moreer. I would imagine you saying, listen, I love the work we do together. It's not just a game of doing more and more and more. I want to do more of the right things. But I can't just go for quantity here. I have a limited capacity.

Beautiful. Thank you for that. What I get out of that too as well is sort of. It's so focused on career oriented work and I would want to expand. Like, maybe we don't have to think about his work, but what kind of energy put toward other things. Let's incorporate that into your perspective on what we choose to do.

Yeah, right. The do moreer can also be do more fun things.

Right.

Do more in a well rounded way. It doesn't just have to be for the business.

Absolutely.

Okay, how about the surrenderer? What is their primary fear and primary motivation?

It's the same thing, you know, the surrender is like, it's saying, this is all too much like, you can't control all this. You're not going to be able to ever figure it all out or work hard enough to get to this sort of state of peace that you're going for. I want that, too. And what you need to do to get there is let it go. Surrender. That's it. Surrender, let it go. That's what's going to get you out of this overwhelm and into this state of peace and joy. So that's his motivation. It's fear is, I think, like, that I'm gonna, like, overheat or have a meltdown like my toddler, that I'm just gonna, like, lose my shit if I try to keep figuring it out and working harder, working harder. And so I think it's right, too.

The surrender's fear is watching the other two kind of boss you around and go, no, this is not headed in a good direction. Like, we gotta pull the reins back on this a little bit. The fear that you'll collapse, like, no, we need you. Adrian's our guy. Like, we can't run him into the ground here, guys.

I think it also is, like, philosophically the way to peace and joy is not through accomplishment figuring out hard work. It's saying. It's more of just the state of how you relate to the chaos of life. And it's not you accomplish your way through it. It's like you accept and surrender into it. There's some wisdom there. There's a different ideal.

And is there anything you, Adrian, would like to say to the surrender?

Again, I feel appreciative of its presence. I also feel like it's reactive to these other two. So it's got, like, a bit of a rebelliousness mixed into it. And I feel like that actually creates more tension inside myself. So I kind of want to say, I hear you, and I appreciate you taking care of me in this way. And I appreciate your philosophy as well. And what's the. And I don't know, there's something about it that it feels like all these three, you know, or this with the other two are kind of polarized. There's like a tug of war. So I guess what I try to say something like, philosophically, I'm with you mostly, but I don't think I can just let it all go right now. I think I need a little.

Help with how to hold my life more loosely, maybe. And as I say that, I think that's just in trying to talk to it and appreciate it. I think that's where I want to go with it, is help me not let everything go. I Don't want to let my kids go. You know, I don't want to let my family go. I don't want to let my work go. I love all these things, care deeply about them, but maybe instead of, like, let it all go and burn it all down, what I want to do is just hold it a little bit more loosely.

And those are all good examples of things that need some structure. Kids need structure. They need routine. So you're not going to just let it be a free for all around the house.

Right.

You don't want to surrender so completely, but it's like, work with me.

Yeah.

Help me hold this just a little more loosely.

Yeah.

And I hear you. I've got you. Because also, the surrender is a little outnumbered at the moment by the other two.

Yeah, that's right.

Is there anything else you want to say either to your entire board or about your board to feel complete on this little piece?

It's so helpful. It's so helpful just to hear. Well, first, even identifying them when we were taking the 10 minutes prior to pressing record to listen inside myself. Who is there? Who are these various parts? And just that just the act of sort of separating out the cacophony of sound was really helpful. And then especially hearing from each of them, tuning into each of them, and better understanding what they're motivated by, what they're afraid of. I love your last question as well. What would you say to them? I feel like that's where we really start to build a better relationship inside of myself with these different parts. So that was really, really helpful.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Cool. Thank you for being so open with us through this exercise. And I've always admired about you, your ability to tune in to what's coming up for you right now. You're so present with yourself at just noticing what's there. Thank you for going through this exercise with us.

Yeah, my pleasure. And I'll say the same about you. You were the one who brought this up as a topic, and I think you brought it up because it was something that was particularly alive for you. And so I know when designing, when figuring out what do we want to talk about in each of these podcasts, you always want to know what's up, what's alive. Let's go with that thing that's alive. And so I'm excited to turn the tables.

Yeah.

And hear from you. What are your current three board members that are speaking most loudly to you?

Ooh. Okay. There's so many up there. And I totally resonate with what you said it's helpful to just parse what the different voices are. I feel like sometimes it's as if there's 10 radio stations playing at once and just to know what the music is, what each individual station is. I like how you set your board in context of kind of how you're feeling. Overall, I'm not feeling as overwhelmed as I am uncertain. I'm finding myself getting kind of rocked by weird health stuff. At the time that we're recording this, I said to someone yesterday, it feels like I'm driving through a snowstorm. I just cannot see in front of me with my business and exactly what I'm meant to do. I've had weird expenses come out of nowhere, and my morale has been on a real rollercoaster as well. I just feel like I'm in the thick of it. I'm in the belly of the pivot beast, as I've said in previous episodes, and almost surfing a void of sorts. So that's kind of the context that I'm coming from. My current board, well, the loudest members at the time we're recording this are a business school professor, a Buddhist monk, and a dog Walker podcast listener.

Nice.

Yeah. So the business school professor is wearing some kind of traditional sweater. This one's a man. I think it's from some Ivy League school. He's got the elbow patches. He's got some kind of accolades, long resume, but he's also been teaching for a long time. And it's almost as if this voice is just constantly measuring how I run my business against, like, typical business or how it should be done. And when we're recording this, it's just very recent to Silicon Valley bank collapse. I followed that voraciously. I followed it to the minute I was so fascinated by it. And then a couple days later, I had this aha moment. What if I'm Silicon Valley Bank? What if I just got lucky the last 12 years and my whole business is about to go bust? And to me, that's kind of the business school professor saying, you don't really know what you're doing. Look, you don't even forecast. You don't set quarterly goals. Just kind of holds up the rule book about how business should be to show me what I'm not doing and how my approach is just ridiculous.

It sounds a bit like it's in the inner critic kind of realm. Yeah, yeah.

And let's say critical. It's not just a voice that's like, oh, I'm so bad at business. It's just this personality that's like, oh, well, if you were a real business, you would do this, that and the other, whatever it is. But then the reason the Silicon Valley bank thing was so fascinating is that even one of the biggest banks in the country went bust in a day.

In a day.

So there is part of me that's like even the smartest people right now don't know what's going on. You know, don't know how to react to the state of the economy. So I guess I kind of jumped to what I would say to the B school professor. But I would say they're afraid that like I'm doing it wrong. And therefore kind of similar to you, the business will fail and I'll have to go get a job. And the motivation is if I just show you the rule book, maybe you could figure this out already. If you could stop caring so much about freedom and free time and heart based business and just do what I tell you, do the best practices, you wouldn't be in this situation you're in, you wouldn't be so uncertain, you wouldn't have cash flow crunch. You could just get back on track. I think that's the business school professor.

And if you were able to get back on track, if you followed these best practices back on track, where does that go? Where does that all lead? Like, what's the future state that it's wanting you to experience?

Just consistent abundant cash flow, recurring revenue month after month. It's all so predictable. I've always said I have an inner cfo. Even I wrote about that in life after college when I was leaving corporate. And so the B school professor is very related to the cfo, the inner cfo. They have this vision that the business is just steady, predictable. I've had moments like this where there was really steady recurring, abundant cash flow. And I think they just want me to get back there. They're like, we know what that could be. And I think that's their vision for the future.

And how does it want you to feel if you have that stability, recurring cash flow, it's all predictable. Then you would feel, or it thinks you would feel what?

Secure, abundant. And this is an ejenni. I would be able to easily pay every bill, put money in all kinds of different savings, short term index funds, retirement, emergency funds. Like every fund would be filled to the brim and overflowing and we'd be helping extended family. I just picture myself like that gesture we do where you throw dollar bills into the air. That's like the benevolent, successful business person that can just toss money everywhere. Money is needed.

What I feel like really matters to this part core deep motivation. The reason it's doing all this criticism and you should do the best practices this way and that way is so that things will be humming along. But with that comes this feeling of I'm secure and I'm also free. There's like a freedom there as well in that security. And I can help. I can be generous and help, so I can be helpful, supportive.

It is really helpful having someone reflect.

Back, oh yeah, we need help with these things. I mean, it's hard to navigate all the complexities of what's going on inside alone. Absolutely. And so is there anything that you want to say to it now, having sort of done the full exploration of motivation and fear?

I want to say, listen, I know how knowledgeable you are about business. I know how many books you've read, how much you've studied, how many case studies you've analyzed. And I so appreciate.

The insight that you want to provide. At the same time, I am trying to show a new way as possible that maybe wasn't possible in the past, but we do have more technology available. We can run a business from our laptop, even our mobile phone. We don't have to work as if we're in a factory, especially if you're self employed. So I want to be an example of a different way of working. And money is important, but it's not everything. And I would love for you to just keep an open mind about a new way of doing business and a new way of showing up in a business. And that's what I'm trying to do here. So it might look like I'm taking the long road or I'm not making choices that make much sense, but I'm also trying to do something that isn't the mainstream. So I'd love for you to just support me in this effort a little bit.

Amen. When you said the part about I want to do things a new way, I felt like that is so you. It feels like it's a part of your purpose as I know you and who you are and what you're about. So it's really powerful to hear that come through. And I think it also highlights the value of this kind of framework. Like through enough relationship, this comes through. I feel like this is yourself, you know, yourself is speaking to your CEO, is speaking to the professor here. And it's what's coming through is like. Or it's helping you. This whole Dialogue is helping you get in touch with like, who you are and what you're really about. And it's just powerful to hear that come through.

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.

We'll be right back just after this.

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So the next one, the Buddhist monk, it could also be a nun, but I just chose Buddhist monk just like you because you said you might have a monk up there somewhere. The Buddhist monk is like totally checked out, just not even in the boardroom. Like, he's over at the monastery. He or she, they. And they're like, I cannot be bothered with this to the monk. It's like, are you kidding me with the email, the voicemails, texts, like, I'm out of here. I don't want to talk to anyone. I don't want to see anyone. I don't want plans. I want to be safe, silent. I just want to be in silence. Could you just leave me be? Why do you have to keep dragging me out of the monastery? I'm happy here. So there's this tension I have because I relate to that so much. That's a big part of what constantly pulls me. It's just a need, a craving for silence and less notifications and communications.

So I was just going to ask you what the motivation is. You said a craving for silence. What else do you want to share about the monk's motivation?

The monk is motivated by peace and quiet. Just equanimity, peace and quiet. Just being able to be immersed in their own thoughts and routines. So that's the motivation. Truly. Peace and quiet. Just peace and presence. Appreciating small things, just not so overwhelmed by people and the world.

And what about its fear? What is it afraid of if it's not in the monastery alone in meditation, reflection, what is it afraid will happen or you'll experience?

It's just coming up now in this moment, as you ask that, that something essential will be lost, like an essential part of myself will get crushed. I picture a stampede. There's like a stampede. And that's. The outside world is just gonna stampede over my soul. So extreme. But that's what's coming up right now, that the monk is worried that that's who I am at my core. If I'm being truly honest, that's what I need. I need way more silence and quiet than probably most people. And it's afraid to lose that. And then there's some other people pleaser on the board that I didn't even bring up today. But the people pleaser is, like, very afraid to admit that, because if I admit that I might lose a lot of friends, I might not be on my own treadmill of trying to keep up with everyone else.

That's a really deep fear that my spirit, my soul will be crushed by the input, by the noise of everything. And what's it like for you to hear that from this part of you that that's its fear. That's what it's trying to protect you from.

I do get it. I get it. And it's interesting because you talked in yours. There's some tension. There's almost a tug of war. I picture the monk in tug of war with the people pleaser. I think this is why I have a lot of conflict. And I just read a great book. She's going to be on the podcast the Joy of Saying no. Natalie Liu. It was so good. If any of you listening are a people pleaser, you must read this book. But it's like, I picture the monk and the people pleaser tug of war. Like, no, you got to get out there, get on the phone, talk to people, do all the things. And then the monk is like, no, you're, like, killing me slowly or quickly. And they're in direct conflict. They fight a lot, let's put it that way.

I'm just curious. We could not go straight to the dog walker and instead try to facilitate a conversation between the professor and the monk, because you've said they're in such conflict with each other, it would deviate from the original structure.

Right? The people pleaser and the monk.

Oh, was that what you said? You said people pleaser and the monk not the professor and the monk.

They don't really talk. The professor and the monk. It's almost like the business school professor is controlling the money of what's going on with the money. But then my time and energy. The monk, I picture different puzzle pieces are on the table in the boardroom and they're both, like, trying to grab them. They're like, no, give me. I need three pieces over here because there's a dinner tomorrow night. The monk is like, no, my quota of quiet time has not been fulfilled. Get me? And they're kind of trying to grab for resources. So that's a very interesting idea to facilitate a conversation. And then I can just zoom through the dog walker more quickly because maybe it connects to these as well.

Well, I think my first question in trying to facilitate a conversation is, were they listening to each other? Did the people pleaser hear what the monk is trying to protect you from or help you retain? Which is the same thing, which is this sense of your core essence, your spirit that is intact and flourishing. And so I wonder if the people pleaser knows that, that that's what it's trying to do.

The people pleaser can see that that's the monk's goal, but the people pleaser is saying, listen, all the research shows that longevity and happiness connects to your community, your friendships, your marriage, all the people in your orbit, your family. And the people pleaser is like the data shows you gotta invest in all this and you can't drop the ball. Even my friend Jordan and I love Jordan, his podcast, his tagline, he always says about networking is dig the well before it gets empty. Or what is the. I think that's the. I think that's the.

Well, that makes sense. Yeah.

Anyway, the people pleaser, that one might see the need for quiet, but just go, that's not in your best interest. In your best interest is to keep putting deposits in the bank accounts of all these people in your life.

And for what purpose? What is the people pleaser going? If you put those deposits in, if you build your relationships, then what will Jenny get to have or experience?

Theoretically, connection fulfillment. But also, I don't know, probably the people pleaser also wants to be liked. Like, wants to be likable. So I would experience being never making anyone mad. People thinking fondly of me having a good reputation, people thinking I'm a good friend, that I'm a responsive person. If somebody emails in to one of the two websites and leaves a note, responsive to current clients and customers. Like, the people pleaser wants to be good and be seen as good and be acknowledged as such. And it's about putting in the reps to, like, meet the bar that the people pleaser has set for what quality looks like in terms of connecting with other people.

And if you're good, if you're seen as good, then what comes to you as a result of that? What do you get out of being.

Now you're asking the tough question.

Yeah, well, we want to get to the heart of it. Close.

I know.

This one I find hard because it's so deep. It's so deep in there. Probably from childhood. It's so unconscious.

Right. Automatic.

Yes. I'm having a hard time because it's so rooted, Honestly. I think the people pleaser, being good, being liked, also has to do with harmony and peace. That I would be in harmony with my environment, with my community. There wouldn't be friction. No one would be mad at me, no one would be disappointed in me. I remember in CTI they had us name our future self, and my name was Harmony for my future self. So I think the people pleaser wants harmony. Like, don't rock any boats. If I can just keep everybody else happy, all will be well. I won't have any friction or tension in my life. There again, peace.

Yeah. And so it's people pleasers trying to bring that harmony to you by way of pleasing others and being likable and good. And the monk is trying to get you into that similar place. Maybe it's not exactly the same, but the peace, the equanimity, it sounds like harmony, actually through a protection of this sort of core essence spirit that you have, like, if you're just left alone to do your own thing, you will in fact find that, have that harmony, that peace.

Yeah. And it's interesting hearing you say them back, because when I hear you say them back, the monk honestly sounds more authentic to me. And the people pleaser sounds more. It's more of a performance.

That all things being equal, if I'm truly being honest, I lean more toward the monk, or at least right now. And that does connect to the Dog Walker podcast listener, because what do those things have in common? My dog is non verbal.

Right.

He's so cute. But I'll go to the park with him. We sit on a hill in the dirt and I just listen to podcasts. So in a way, I have people that I hang out with, they don't know I exist, but I'm not talking, I'm giving attention, but in a passive kind of way. So the dog walker relates to the monk in the sense that I'm out at the park in the dirt throwing a stick for a ride or a big log while listening to podcasts that I love. And I find that super joyful. And I guess that's, you know, second to the monastery is just another example of the part of me that is like, this business is overwhelming. I'm just gonna be a dog walker, you know, like almost instead of a stay at home mom, I'm just a stay at home dog walker. Like that's the part of me that checks out at 1 or latest 2pm and goes to the park and sits in the sun.

Yeah. It seems like there's a deep truth about you that you're again in touch with. It's not new information, but maybe a deeper understanding or a current remembering of how important it is for you to have time and space for yourself. That that's just a deep need of yours that really helps bring that harmony.

Yeah. So interesting.

So I am curious then.

Yes.

If you didn't at all have the people pleaser, what would be lost?

Well, according to the people pleaser, I wouldn't have a business and I wouldn't have any friends. I might have a few friends who have similar monk like desires.

And that's according to the people pleaser. What about you? Like if you try to get in touch with and I don't know the answer to this, I'm really not fishing for anything. I'm just very curious about this sort of dilemma of it being very real and true for you to need a lot of time alone. And also some obvious concerns about, you know, if you never follow up or stay connected to anybody. What does your life look like? You know, there. So but if we ask you.

Yeah.

What is the cost? What would be lost if the people pleaser wasn't around? What do you think?

It's funny. It's like, yeah, what if I fired the people pleaser from the board? So when you asked me that, I thought, what would I do as a CEO? I might need to hire some kind of liaison, some kind of chief of staff. I picture someone who is a gateway between me and the world, but they just facilitate. They're like a gatekeeper. Celebrities have a handler or something or they're really strict about kind of what gets through. And so there would be some kind of liaison. But it's almost the people pleaser is this like frantic quantity, like me energy.

And then the liaison is a little classier, they're elevated, they're like almost the bouncer at the door of a fancy club or the hostess at a very fancy restaurant. Michelin star restaurant. Like, we take reservations three weeks in advance. Or if it's French Laundry, I don't even know a year in advance. We have limited seating. It's a quality, immersive experience. But this isn't McDonald's.

It's kind of like we had talked prior to the start about first exploring what are the current voices, their. Their fears, their motivations. How do we want to be in better relationship with them? What do we want to say to them? And then we talked about, you know, to continue on which this was your idea. The extension of your exercises is who do you want to hire? And so you're kind of talking about, like, I think I might need to let go, fire. Whatever. I don't know. How nice to be here. But replace the people pleaser with the classy host or gatekeeper. Yes, concierge. I don't know what to call this person.

Yeah, I used to have a surrenderer prominent on my board. I think I'm gonna give your surrenderer a call. I'm gonna invite them to a seat as well.

Nice.

And I thought of one more that I would hire. And then I wanna hear yours before we wrap. Two previous guests, Catherine Price and Kahee, both talk about fun. And I'll put their links to their episodes in the show notes. But I think that I really need to bring on a director of fun. And I just picture them living in a tree house, like, just playing around, innovating creativity. And then the last one, borrowing from a client who I mentioned in free time, a chief wellness officer. I need to bump them up, give them a promotion. The chief wellness officer. And for some reason, the environment that came to mind is a luxury yacht. And so if I could bring the luxury yacht vibe in with the chief wellness officer and the surrender and the treehouse director of fun, I think we'd be in good shape.

Very cool.

How about you? Who would you hire?

I just have to say I love the shift from people pleasing to concierge, or however we label that.

That was a surprise. I didn't even write down people pleaser until you mentioned it.

I think that's also what happens when we start to identify and talk through these things. We start to learn more about who's actually in there and speaking the loudest to us. It can feel messy for a while. There's a point in listening to you and asking you questions where I felt like, whoa, I don't Know what's going on, where is this all going? But then it, to me, it really. There was like a reorganization in a truer sense that. Or a more beneficial to you sense that seemed to happen when you started to question. I don't really know if the people pleaser is working for me. I think I need some other personality, some other part in that role. And that was really felt like a pivotal moment. So anyways, just wanted to say that I'm excited for you there and for me, yeah, I wrote down fun also. And this for me in my language is like the wild man. Like, there's so much in the parenting of young kids that's so not wild and adventurous. It's chaotic, it's a circus. But it's not this like adventurous, wild, me at my edge with nature, backcountry snowboarding or surfing or just like out or doing you're playing soccer or something with. That's just more wild and fun and free. And then I also said I would want to hire a selfish, very, very selfish part. And for me, that's about like all this energy going toward other people, other things, often appropriately, you know, my kids, my family, my business, my team, my clients, and just not a lot coming back to me. So I want somebody who is going to be selfish and advocate for what I want and need.

I love it.

Yeah. And then the last one, this is where I'm so influenced by internal family systems on some level. I can't not want to just promote the self or turn up the volume on the self. Because when I do find my way back to that deeper part of me that isn't reacting to something or to some voice in my head or getting caught up in the feeling of overwhelm or whatever it may be for me in that moment. But I feel like the self can, like, witness it all. It can feel it, see it. It's not missing anything. It's not tuned out. It's not running from something. It's not trying to grasp for something. Like, if only I have this, then I'll be okay. It's like, no, it sees through all of it. And so I guess it's that wisdom of knowing the truth and being able to also have the courage, have the wisdom or discipline to follow it to go with that. So to say, like, yeah, you really want to work hard. Yeah, of course, you know, you think you're going to get through all of it and it's been useful to work hard in the past and wow, you're not going to work your way through this. You're not going to figure it out. You just need to go for a run or rest or whatever that person. I want to promote the cell.

I love that. And that goes with our New Year's Day episode of what Is yous Soul Calling you to do. I just love that you've mentioned courage, like the courage to turn the volume up on your core self. It's beautiful. Yeah, amazing.

I'm just now having this thought like, wow, this was so useful for me. So thank you, Jenny. And also just like, I hope that all of you listening have found this useful as a introduction, as a framework, or that you've been able to follow along in your own inner world and not just listen to us, but also do your own navigation of the three voices that are speaking most loudly and then maybe also the three that you want to hire so that it's not just self indulgent for us. I don't think so. That's not the intention at all at all.

Right. I found it so helpful to hear yours. So yes, I hope if you're listening you found it helpful and I encourage you, get out a piece of actual paper and have fun with it. Write these down. Try to come up with three. But it could be more than three. You might have 10 board members and then you could narrow down. You could even do this with a friend of asking the same questions we did. Core fear, Core motivation. What would you want to say to each one? And I just want to say thank you, Adrian, for playing with me today and doing this. And listeners, we'd always love to hear from you either about this, what we talked about today, or a request for a future jam sesh with me and Adrienne. So you can always leave us a voice memo@pivotmethod.com ask or you can email helloivotmethod.com Adrienne, you rock. Thank you so much.

Thank you, Jenny.

Cheers to our future board, our reorg.

Yeah, absolutely. Reorganization. Thank you. That was so, so fun and useful. Appreciate you.

Likewise. Such a gift. You too.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter Ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always?

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