324: Six Golden Shadows of the Imposter Complex with Tanya Geisler

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One of the things that I want to atone for is believing that all roads lead to the imposter complex. And that's not entirely true, nor fair, right? So if you are a people pleaser that doesn't in and of itself mean that you experience the imposter complex, it might be for you an instrument of safety.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it.

Here we go.

Welcome back Pivoters. You're in for a treat today with my dear friend Tanya Geisler. Tanya and I met over 12 years ago. She interviewed me for her show at the time thing finding Thursday in 2011 and we were both saying we remember that day. We remember that conversation so vividly. And it's just a delight to be back with her here today. She's a celebrated leadership expert, mentor, coach, keynote speaker, writer. She had a podcast called Ready Enough. After a successful career in advertising, she entered the world of coaching two decades ago. She's been running her business coming up on 18 years, working with thousands of change makers, innovators and leaders to dislodge that not good enough feeling, perfectionism, procrastination, diminishment, people pleasing comparison, and leaky boundaries that all roll up into imposter complex. Tanya, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much. I'm beaming from ear to ear. This has just been so much fun getting caught up with you. I want to just frame something up for the pivoters that are listening right now. It was so long ago that we met that you were the first person that told me about red velvet cupcakes.

Are you serious?

Uh huh. Uh huh.

Oh my gosh.

That doesn't give time and place. I don't even know what is just the phrase.

Red velvet cupcake is of that era. Cupcake tweet ups and whatnot.

Oh, my gosh. It's the truth of it. It's the truth of it. So, yeah, it was that long ago, and I'm just so delighted and thrilled to be here. Thank you.

It's been a joy watching you build your body of work, and you've explored so many nooks and crannies of imposter complex. I mean, it's just amazing. When did you land on this as your raison d' etre of, like, the one thing you wanted to orient around?

You know, I think it was not very long after we spoke.

Because I was invited to do a TEDx talk. And there is nothing in the world that is going to clarify your message, like trying to articulate something inside of 20 minutes. And the theme for the that event was the space in between what is real and what is imagined. And so I was trying to distill what I've been learning through my coaching practice. I was like, maybe I'll just talk about the inner critic. I was like, wait, what? Like, that is just preposterous to try to unpack that. So then I was like, what is the biggest objection that I'm seeing inside of my own life and in the lives of my clients? You know, folks who'd been on the Today show and Oprah's couch, Like, what were they experiencing through and through? And it was this piece, this imposter complex piece. So once I started researching, I was like, whoa. You say nooks and crannies is like rabbin warrens upon, like tunnels upon tunnels upon tunnels. And I feel like we've still just only scratched the surface of understanding it.

I love how clearly you've outlined the six main habits, the ways that imposter complex can manifest as perfectionism, procrastination, comparison, people pleasing, diminishment, and leaky boundaries. And it's so funny because you might as well have just described the Pivot Podcast archives.

These are the topics. These are the really naughty, sticky places that I'm often trying to unpack with my guests. It doesn't matter that the show is eight years in. I still want to talk to people who struggle with people pleasing or perfectionism. Compare and despair. You said on a podcast that these all roll into belonging, and I thought that was very interesting. So can you say more about that? I've never heard anybody say imposter complex has to do with belonging and actually trying to fit in.

So you'll really recognize it when I say that ultimately this rolls into our Fear of both success and failure, because at either end of the spectrum, not part of the crowd, right. We're either way out in front, not belonging, or we're way behind, not belonging. We're kind of obsessed with making sure that we're part of that pack now before we go making ourselves wrong for that. That's really just a tribal need to belong. There's safety in all of that. So that's really what it comes down to, is all of the ways that it's trying to point out that you don't belong. So we do these things, we go to these behaviors to cope with the fear that we might be the imposter and that we don't belong.

That is so fascinating that we can be equally afraid of success and failure, because I think that the failure literature gets a lot more attention, and certainly probably even in our minds, we give the fear of failure more attention. So then the success side of it can be really sneaky because we get somewhere, we accomplish something, and all of a sudden, this massive fear of either losing it, being. Being found out, or even, as you say, sticking out, shining too brightly comes in. And I've often felt more unprepared for those moments because we think, oh, just when I achieve this level of success, then I'll feel okay. Then I'll feel confident, and the fear will dissipate. But sometimes it can actually be magnified.

Absolutely. And this is why we feel like admonishment is the appropriate response to that. Let's make sure that we aren't found out, that we aren't shining too brightly, that we aren't that tall poppy that stands up so proud and then gets clipped down.

Can you explain what diminishment is? What are the behaviors that we do, and why do we do that?

Oh, boy, oh, boy. This is really one of those, how long is a piece of string? So if you don't mind, I'm going to sort of frame this up a little bit differently and just name that for me and my understanding of the imposter complex. It has three main objectives. It wants to keep us out of action, doubting our capacity, and alone and isolated. That's its M.O. it's raison d'. Etre. And so it will accomplish this by having us believe 12 really specific lies that I'm happy to share. And it will have us hiding out in those behavioral traits, one of which is diminishment. And you've named the other six so beautifully, by the way. In all of the years that I've been doing this nobody has ever actually reflected those behavioral traits. Every time I say them, they're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, what? But you had them. That's perfect. Thank you so much.

That's just my diligent note taking. I can't take any credit.

I love it. I love it. So these are ways that we want to avoid feeling like the imposter. So we go to these behaviors. And the great paradox is that in hanging out in these behaviors, we actually end up feeling more like the imposter. Yikes. Do you see what I mean there? So we go to people pleasing because I want to make sure that I belong. I want to make sure that I fit in. So I'm going to be lovely and charming and I want to make sure that you really like me. But then when I'm given an opportunity, I'm going to pass it up. I'm going to chalk it up to the fact that you just like me. Not because I'm deeply skilled, brilliant and talented at what I do. Very sneaky, sneaky. So it has me feeling like an imposter both ways.

Well, I was going to say what you described as a great paradox. And it's also a vicious cycle because then the more that we ping pong between these six behaviors or habits, they reinforce and exacerbate the way that we're feeling, like you said. So it's just that thing. Of course there's probably some famous Roman, Greek, who knows adage, but that the more you aim at something, the more elusive it becomes.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And this is the reason you naming that ping ponging. So, you know, am I going to handle my diminishment or am I going to handle my procrastination? And I work my way through that, but then it's going to pong over into perfectionism or maybe it's going to ping back over to leaky boundaries. And you know, we like to sort of link these up, but they really do ping pong off of each other. So dealing with the actual behavior really doesn't have a sustained relief. It's like the head of a hydra. You just lop it off and they keep popping up. So we have to understand the sort of the system and the structure of it. I also want to acknowledge, and this is where when you asked me about diminishment, I kind of went off into like over on that pathway because I think we were talking at the very beginning, but things that maybe we got wrong or were misinformed about at the time. And I think that one of the things that I want to atone for is believing that all roads lead to the imposter complex. And that's not entirely true nor fair. Right. So if you are a people pleaser, that doesn't in and of itself mean that you experience the imposter complex. It might be for you, an instrument of safety. And so I think it's important to acknowledge, you know, I'm talking about this through the lens of my lived experience as a white, neurotypical, able bodied, cisgendered woman of middle class means living in North America. And that's not everybody else's lived reality necessarily. And so looking at each of these behaviors in and of themselves is not the whole picture. Having people pleasing doesn't mean that you necessarily experience the imposter complex. It could be an instrument of survival. It could be lots of other reasons. And so that's the reason I actually created the Ready Enough podcast, was to talk with other folks who admittedly experience the imposter complex, but through different lenses of experience than mine.

And I think it's in the description, which I love the title of the show, Ready Enough. So good that you even say, if you have a hammer, you go looking for a nail. That we do tend to do that. And of course we're going to do that. That is the gift of focus of any body of work. We're going to say, oh, I have an imposter complex hammer. You know, where can I apply it? And I think that's a real gift. And I appreciate what you're saying right now, which is that's not always the whole story. It doesn't have to be the main story. And these things aren't mutually exclusive. Like, you said that just because you procrastinate, it may or may not be tied to imposter complex. It may serve in other ways.

Yeah, yeah. And so people are like, well, how do you know? You know, right? Like, you know, I don't go around telling people you have the imposter complex. I actually did a funny little. Well, I thought it was funny. I'm terrible at doing gifts, but I actually tried my hand with doing an Oprah Winfrey. You have imposter complex and you have imposter complex. And I'm like, I don't do that anymore. But I did at one point. I really could see all of that. But now you know that you're dealing with this, talk to me. We can work this out. It is helpful to consider what else these behavioral traits might be telling us if we are talking about the imposter complex and we know we don't want to feel like the imposter. I might go procrastinate because I do not want to find out that I am indeed the imposter, or I don't certainly don't want anybody else to find out that I'm the imposter. But then when I go hang out procrastination, I'm going to allow the fear, the sleeplessness, the anxiety, all of those things that can build up. And it means that by the time I actually get around to producing the thing, doing the talk, delivering the pitch, all of those things, I'm not delivering it to the best of my ability, which of course simply reinforces my imposter belief. Right? Yeah.

And you and I share an approach to this that for me it never worked to try to make any of this stuff go away. Maybe because they're so prominent for me. Did you go through CTI coach training? And someone said to me very early on, she said, you're so smart, so is your inner critic. And I felt doomed. I felt that she had doomed me, sentenced me that I have this like really smart inner critic and it was gonna get me and this adversarial relationship just didn't work. Almost a decade ago now, I remember writing a blog post, self love formulas are. Because I was so sick of the only if or when you love yourself fully, then someone else can. I never saw it as an only if then. And I believe that it's with other people's love and lens that I could just say, dating my husband, then marrying my husband, he helped me love so many parts of myself I would have never even thought to consider. Like when we first met, he said, I love your forearms. Your forearms are so strong. Had anyone ever said that to me in my life? Tanya, guys are. No, they had not. But funny. I used to do handstands in the park every day as my release from working. In fact, I probably did have really strong forearms. I would have never seen that in myself. And that's just a very superficial example. But I do think that sometimes the conversation around all this, as if we can get rid of it and it just doesn't work. I also appreciate how you just say, listen, just expect it. It's going to be there. It's going to be there at the beginning. It might be there as you hit moments of success. And it's about working with it because just like with public speaking, the more hard on yourself if you start getting nervous when you get on stage and turn red and then get self conscious about that again. It's only going to magnify and create a self fulfilling prophecy rather than fix anything.

That's right, that's right, that's right, that's right.

I don't know why I just need to go on that tangent. I guess.

We'll be right back just after this.

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I think that is the coolest thing I may have ever heard that you do handstands in the park. That would bring me such joy if I was going through the park and I saw somebody just like handstanding it out. Yeah, that is amazing. Do you still do that?

No, not like that. Because I lived in a different part of town. I lived in Nolita. I would walk to the west side highway and there was something very playful about hands in the grass failing every day. I wrote about it in Pivot. Literally failing all the time. Cause a freestanding handstand I found very difficult. And let's just say I'm like a little heavier on the bottom than the top. And I never realized at the time that that makes the physics of handstanding for me were a little trickier than people with really long thin legs and bodies. And yeah, I would be there every day trying, failing and flipping upside down. So it's also very metaphoric for like. Oh yeah, I don't know if that's a word metaphoric just made it one. But it's a good metaphor for kind of turning your life your problems upside down, breathing fresh air. And I would often make weird friends just out there.

Love it.

Thanks for sharing that.

Yeah, I'm super excited about that. And I'm also being a little heavy on the top. Makes me wonder if this might work out for me. So I'm gonna give it a go. I am gonna give it a go and I'll report back. Yeah.

Because if you think about it, your hands and torso will be planted and stable. And then it takes hamstring flexibility to get your hips over your hands. That's step one. And so then you might have an easier time with not as much momentum, like getting one leg into the air and then the other, because my legs are, like, short and heavy.

I am so excited. Yeah. I'm so excited to try this. I really, really am. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I love it.

Pro tip, everybody.

Yeah, Everyone go to the park. I'm so here for that. And I've honestly been thinking a lot more about, like, how am I getting grounded, how am I getting out in nature? So this is so exciting. Thank you. So, yes, we both were trained at cti. I love the inner critic work that we learned a million years ago about coming up, discerning what the golden nugget is inside of each objection, inside of each bit of self determination. And I caught that pretty quickly with the imposter complex. First of all, it shows up on the precipice of expansion. Right? It shows up when we are on the precipice of something new, something important, something meaningful, something that matters. So in and of itself, it's actually a pretty good. I want to say canary in the mineshaft, but I'm not sure that's the metaphor. I mean, but.

Okay, let's just leave that canary in the coal mine. Yeah. Close enough. Yeah.

It's metaphorical. Yes. Making stuff up all over the place here today. So there's that. And also it's important for us to remember, too, that we experience it because we are high achievers with strong and gorgeous values of integrity and excellence and proficiency. So it shows up on the precipice. It shows up when we're doing something that matters. And it shows up because we have those beautiful values. So I'm super not interested in eradicating it any more than you are. I think it's great fun when it shows up, but it's great when it shows up because it lets us know that we are stretching ourselves. Right. We're about to do a handstand, we're about to pivot, we're about to write the book, do the blog, like, all of the things that actually matter to us. I've been Very obsessed for a couple of years now with this idea of being iconic. And what I love about the word iconic is that of course you can't spell iconic without IC twice. Meaning it's going to get you the beginning and it's gonna get you at the end. Because the next moment you decide that you were already standing and said like, yeah, monocon. I got this. I got this. Bloop. It's gonna show up again because you're gonna be on to the next.

Yeah, I love that.

It's so much fun. Did you ever come across, Jenny, that. There was an extraordinary talk by a coach named Caroline McHugh and. Oh, so beautiful, so beautiful. She was talking about the collective grief that we all experienced when Prince and David Bowie died. Is this ringing a bell?

Collective grief for sure. I haven't seen talk yet.

Oh my gosh, it's so beautiful. So I'll be real fast about it because this is where I sort of landed on it. I used to talk about your starring role. That language was a little dissonant for a lot of folks, so I tried to move away and I was like, what do I mean if I don't mean starring role? And I heard Caroline McHugh talk and she was talking about, there are certain people, the universe has carved out a U shaped space just for you. And very few of us will ever extend into the fullness of that space. But there are those who do, and those are the princes and the David Bowie's. And we see them in the full expanse of who they are. And they look like they've swallowed the moon.

How beautiful.

I mean, just can you even.

I have a tag in my collection file called exquisite greatness. But I think people like Adele, she's the one that inspired that tag. Just exquisite greatness. Very similar. Beautiful.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. So your exquisite greatness is what I see as iconic. And we gotta recognize that to step into that exquisite greatness. We're gonna feel some stuff and we're gonna feel it coming and we're gonna feel it going. Cause we're always yearning into the more and the next. We're never fully there. That's kind of the human condition. And we could make ourselves wrong for it or we could just. That is what it is. So with the imposter conflicts, when it shows up, my want, and I believe it's your want too, is to just turn the lights on faster and go, yeah, okay, I got it. I see you. I know what's going on. This matters. I'm at the Precipice, and I've got these really strong values. Let's go.

Bam. Well, I want to talk about the six traits. The golden shadow, as you call it, the silver lining of the imposter complex habits. Before we do that, I want to come back to. I love the play on letters that you can't spell iconic without IC twice. The part I'm so curious about is the IC at the quote end. We know that there's never really an end, but let's imagine these superstars that we look up to that have swallowed the moon. Why on Earth? Sometimes isn't it fascinating to realize that no matter how famous, rich, beautiful, et cetera, someone is, they can still get it? Or no matter when they've won the Nobel Prize or this is like massive moments of arrival. So they're not quite at the precipice. They have arrived. They have been recognized. Why on Earth would the imposter complex come in or get the volume turned up so loudly in those moments?

Because the ego wants to want more than it wants to get. So no matter where you are, that Nobel Prize, right? It's like, oh, beautiful. Like, the most evolved of us will take a moment to actually celebrate. Many of us won't bother. We're just gonna be like, all right, what's next? But most of us will be onto what's next. So if you sat on Oprah's couch, was it for what you wanted to be sitting on Oprah's couch for? You know, metaphorically, of course.

Right. And how'd you do on Oprah's couch? And did enough people like it? And then did you sell enough books as a result of being on Oprah's couch?

Right, right, right. And then the oxygen gets thinner and thinner and thinner the higher up you go, because then it's like, well, what is next? What is next? And I actually think that there's a lot of dissatisfaction when you get to that point. Now, for those folks who have not actually burned themselves out, they are using the methods that you talk about and that I talk about that are about building on your wins, recognizing that you have been here before. Never exactly here, but we've all been at that precipice of our expansion. So whether you were in grade 10 and about to win that award or the first time you put yourself up for. For promotion or the first time you were handed your child or the first time you were managing a team or, you know, the first time you did the pitch like there was a first time. If you can go back and remember this experience. You've been here before, different here, but you've been here before in this uncertainty, in this unfamiliarity, in this will I, will I not? Right? So in those moments, we have to go back to them and remind ourselves on a cellular level that there was a party on the other side of our resistance. But it's hard for us to remember because we don't take the time to celebrate and to integrate that effort. And that's the reason so many of us, when we say, well, you have to track your wins, they'll be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But they don't. It's hard for them to build and bolster their authority thesis, which is what you know my language for looking at all that you have done and created and sold and delivered and healed to get you to this very point. So again, the higher they've climbed, they have to climb that much higher to get to that next place. So why Again, it's human condition and the ego wants to want more than it actually wants to get. So we'll always be on to the next.

How much of it do you think also has to do with the fact that at least in the US and definitely the uk, we have this kind of tall poppy. Actually a lot of cultures have this tall poppy syndrome where it's almost like society builds up the tall poppies just to cut them down. We were talking about schadenfreude and both of our fascination with it before we hit record. Do you think that for some people, they fear reaching those moments where they're more visible because of. Some cultures believe in the evil eye, like now you have more eyes on you or in a very real sense, sometimes those are the people that then somehow something shifts, society turns on them and then like the people who build them up take just as much joy and bring them down. Or all of a sudden trolls come into their comments. Like, Tim Ferriss wrote a Great post on 11 reasons not to be Famous. Yeah, the shadow side of sticking out, which I guess for some people can be very real. For those of us that aren't at that altitude, we might still fear similar things that we've seen happen to other people. Like I can speak for myself. I've always, always since I started blogging had a fear of actually if I get too big, all the trolls might come out. And I don't know if I can handle that or all the criticism or, you know, and that's just on micro compared to what some people deal with.

And again they're very real attacks, very real threats.

Right. Stalkers.

Very real stalkers. Yep.

Mm.

So back to the beginning, we were talking about the fear of success. This is part of it. So there's that actual fear of what will happen when you become the target, or the belief that you'll become the target again. Maybe because they've experienced it or they've seen it. They've committed what Gay Hendricks calls the sin about shining. Maybe they've been bullied, experienced that. I have very early, you know, very early memories of that. And then the other piece is, I talk about the canonization to demonization arc, right? Where we put somebody on a pedestal and then they zig when we wanted them to zag, their humanness started to show, and all of those projections take a nasty turn. I mean, it's all tricky, but I find that one really tricky because we've participated in that, you know, again, that experience that you and I were talking about, Shadow Freud. Like, there are ways in which I maybe have unconsciously, maybe maybe a little consciously delighted when somebody who. I wanted them to do this, and they didn't, and then they did that.

Right. Like, I'm not gonna lie, if Kim Kardashian had not fit into the Marilyn dress, I might have been kind of happy.

Right? So there's that. Then diminishment becomes the thing that we do. So you'd asked about those six behavioral traits. Each one of them. If I go to procrastination, then I'm avoiding being found out that I'm the imposter. If I make sure that everything is perfect and above reproach by embedding myself in my perfectionism, that works until I realize, wait a minute. Nobody else has to work this hard. Clearly, I don't belong here. And that's where it can get us into that bind. When we have leaky boundaries, we might uphold beliefs that we don't actually believe ourselves. We might be saying yes when we mean no. And then, because we are now standing in a belief that's not ours, that exacerbates our sense of imposterhood. Diminishment, I would say, is the one where we might actually feel and understand, though we are doing something pretty remarkable, something meaningful. But then we recognize through our conditioning, you know, three, you name. The Tall Poppy Syndrome. Did that originate in New Zealand? I know my UK clients talk about it a lot, and definitely New Zealand folks and Australian folks, but we're now starting to understand it. There's a study out right now that was just presented about two weeks ago on the Tall Poppy syndrome.

And it looks like it's origin is a story told about King Tarkin the Proud, the ancient Roman tyrant by the historian Livy. So who knows? We'll put it in the show notes where it came from.

Okay, so my response will be, oh, it's not safe. Right. So I have to dim my light. It's not safe for me to shine. So I'm gonna dim my light. And in so doing, I start to believe that less confident bio. I can actually feel my shoulders sort of hunching over right now. And I like stop taking up so much space because I don't want to be, you know, like I start to believe that my body believes that I am intended for smaller. That's the double bind of diminishment. Right. So we don't want to feel like the imposter diminish to do so and then actually feel like I am indeed the imposter. And then, you know, people pleasing. We talked about that as well.

And so does each one map to the iconic quality or archetype or are they not one to one like that? Because I'd love to hear about the flip side. Tell us.

Yeah, in my mind they do. So as you know, the self development space is a $42 billion industry.

$42 billion. That is a ton of money invested in making people feel crappy about themselves. And I'm not here for it. And I know you're not here for it. So I don't find it very helpful to be like, just stop procrastinating. Just stop being a people pleaser. You just better stop comparing yourself. A, it doesn't work like that, B, it's a whole part of a whole structure. And C, we have these aspects of ourselves because like the inner critic, they hold this golden shadow. They hold this light that I think is really important to amplify.

We'll be right back just after this.

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So people pleasing, which is absolutely my go to. I've tackled lots of these aspects of myself, but this people pleasing is really up for me. And what it means is that I have a deep and intrinsic value of inclusivity. That's a gorgeous aspect of myself that I am 0% interested in eradicating. And this maps to the iconic identity of the host. So as a host, this means that I am deeply invested in making sure that everybody feels seen and beheld and included. And that's actually incredibly powerful for me to remember in my business and in my life. So we've got people pleasing. That leads to inclusivity, that leads to this host iconic identity.

I love thinking of the host. Yeah, it's such a nice reframe because you can think about that magnanimous host. And we all probably know these people who are so good when they're literally hosting an event or conference, but then the people pleaser at their best is embodying those qualities. That's great. I love it.

More, more, more. What does the host need to remember, though? The host needs to remember that his job, her job, their job isn't in the kitchen. They're not supposed to stay in the kitchen. You are supposed to be part of the party. Your job isn't to only be of service. Get out there, be part of the conversation. People are there to be with you, not just because how you make them feel. Okay. Really important. If you are somebody who berates yourself for having leaky boundaries, I just want you to celebrate the fact that you are deeply generous, that you have a gorgeous value of generosity. And this tracks with the iconic identity of that of the healer.

Right.

You're generous with your time and your resources and your power and your gifts. The healer. It's beautiful. Beautiful, beautiful. And your job as the healer is to remember that you need to keep yourself in your own circle of care as well.

So important, so easy to forget.

I know. If you are somebody who experiences comparison, right. And you want to make yourself wrong for it, remember that at its core, comparison is about connection. You have a beautiful value of connection and you are a seer. So you see the best in people and the best in ideas. And you Want to connect ideas with ideas and people with ideas and ideas of people. Right. You want to connect all of those things. You're the Maven. The Maven is your gorgeous, iconic identity. The passion that I have for the Maven is to make sure that your focus isn't so out there that you are forgetting your own inner landscape.

Yeah, I love that. And then sometimes they do. You're seeing so much because they love taking in information that I love that you highlight that. Because it can be easy to forget the gifts that the Maven has within because they're so curious about everything else that's out there. Good one.

Exactly. Exactly, exactly. Then we have diminishment, right? So this is like, I'm gonna diminish. I'm gonna diminish because it doesn't feel so safe. And this may be pointing to an exquisite value of humility. Now, humility gets a really, really bad rap, but so many of us have been conditioned to be humble, so this means that we can forget in that desire to diminish and to. Oh, my God, I'm doing it again. I'm actually just hunching over. Like, my body is getting smaller and smaller as I describe this. But this value of humility might keep us hoarding our best work, because it's audacious to shine too brightly for this person. I invite you to consider that you are the visionary, that these big, beautiful, brilliant ideas are our North Star, and that we are really looking to you to illuminate for us what next and to remind us that we also have our own North Stars. My trickster move with this visionary, because usually I can get people on the side with, yeah, actually, I do have thought scholarship that actually needs to be shared. Most folks still get a little uncomfortable with thought leadership, so we'll say thought scholarship. But I have these ideas, and I really want to share them. They can kind of get behind that, but literally, they can get behind the idea, right? They'll get behind it. Let me put that idea out in front of me. Let me hide behind that. Let me hide behind all this. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We need you out in front with this idea. You also matter. Your big, beautiful ideas are important, as are you. So let's get you out in front with these ideas. Stop hiding behind them. That's the. Watch out for the visionary. Then we have procrastination.

My goodness. Procrastination. For me, it points to a beautiful value of discernment. Oh, my gosh. How badly do we need people to operate from a place of discernment when everybody is barreling forward, like, rushing over each other. Hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle. Got people who are sitting back, like the cool hand on our fevered brow, like, this is the sage. God bless the sages, right? They actually just keep the temperature a little bit lower. They just cool things off a little bit. For the sage, though, of course, we need to be mindful that they actually do get into action. They've got a lot of time, but not all the time in the world.

We've got perfectionism. Perfectionism. I know this is ripe for so many of your pivoters. If you've got perfectionism, then you know at its core is a beautiful, exquisite, fundamental value of excellence. Right? We desire excellence. That's such a beautiful, beautiful thing. And we have high standards and we call people forth to rise up and meet us there. So your iconic identity is that of the CEO. Now, the CEO can be super tricky for lots of different reasons. What we've associated with it, who we've associated with it. But the CEO at their best knows that they have to ship faster, that iteration is deeply important, and that pretty much everything that was created, that matters was born of mistakes. So the CEO can hold things at a really high standard, gather the best of the best people, and still ship before things are 100% ready. Right? There's always room for 2.0. So that's the CEO. And I really want to underscore that for all of these things, we make ourselves wrong for diminishment, comparison, perfectionism, procrastination, leaky boundaries, people pleasing. They point to these exquisite values. And if you look at those values, that's the kind of leadership I think that we are here for. Humility, connection, excellence, discernment, generosity and inclusivity. That's the world I wanna live in, where our leaders are upholding those particular values.

I love this. Thank you so much. It's such a beautiful tapestry you've woven of taking the six habits, connecting them to a value. I didn't even know you were gonna throw that in. That's kind of this middle step of recognizing what's this really about. Tier 6 iconic archetypes of the fullest expression or the best self expression. So if you could leave listeners with one experiment as they go about the rest of their day and week, what could they try in terms of stepping into this golden shadow? But I see it as like golden sunshine.

Well, first of all, definitely try a headstand.

Oh, yeah. All Inversions welcome.

Yes, all inversions welcome. Absolutely.

Hey, we're actually talking about inversions, inverting imposter complex. So it fits all inversions. It works.

I absolutely love it. Yeah. So that is really the want. So instead of seeing yourself through the critical eye of self recrimination and blame, can you try to look at your go to habit whether it's damn, I was people pleasing again, can you look at that through the lens of inclusivity and can you admire the host within yourself? So I would really just get curious and I know that's your favorite. One of your top values for sure is curiosity, Jenny. So I would really invite folks to get curious about the place that they will go to and then look what sits under there. What beautiful value is this revealing. And then maybe play a little bit with that iconic identity. And if you're struggling with that in any way, shape or form, of course you can go do my quiz, which is latanya geisler.com quiz and that's going to help you through, I think it's like six or seven questions. It's going to help you figure out which is the most likely iconic identity for you. Remembering that we are all of these most of the time, but usually there's one that we are leading with situationally in that moment.

I'm glad you mentioned that because I was going to say the quiz is great. It's super short. My husband and I took it together with coffee this morning and so that could be really interesting too. And I really love the way the quiz is written, even the different choices. There's a lot of food for thought and discussion. Is there anywhere else, Tanya, that you want to send people to learn more? Keep in touch.

I'm everywhere as Tonya Geissler because that's my name. Come check me out@tanyaguysler.com Lots of articles I've been writing since, like you pointed out, about 18 years. My goodness. I know. And over on Instagram and LinkedIn, Tanya Geisler. So I'd love to love to love to connect and hear what you got out of this experience. Just so thrilled to have been here, Jenny. Thank you.

Me too. What a long time coming. I'm so happy to reunite for the pod. And big thanks to everybody who's here with us listening. Have a beautiful rest of your day, everybody.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter at Jenny Blake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.