330: What Reality TV Teaches Us About Ourselves with Danielle Lindemann

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There's usually some character we can kind of point to and say, okay, that's most like me and kind of grab onto and so we've kind of formed relationships with the people. There's so many different reasons that we watch and so I could definitely see the reason or reasons that you watch reflecting something about yourself in a way.

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Welcome back, Pivoters. I am so delighted to be here today with Danielle Lindemann. She is an associate professor of sociology at Lehigh University who studies gender, sexuality, the family and culture, particularly as they relate to occupations. Her third book, True Story, what Reality TV says About Us is the topic of today's conversation. I'm going to try to boil the ocean here because I highlighted so much in this book. I love reality tv. It has always been a guilty pleasure, but I've never read about it from an academic perspective. So with that, Danielle, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for having me.

You know, I have to ask, is there any particular reality show that you're enjoying the most at the moment?

Oh, at the moment, that's such a good question. Well, as I was just telling you, my semester just ended last week. I usually don't have that much time to watch reality TV during the semester, sadly. So I do have a list of shows that I want to get through this summer, including probably of course, Vanderpump Rules, which a lot of people know is going through some major kind of transitions right now. Some of the Real Housewives I need to catch up on.

Just kind of shows here and there that people have recommended to me along the way. So I'm kind of excited to dive back in.

I love it. I love that you have your list ready to go. Do you have any favorite franchise of all time? Like, of your history of watching reality tv, are there a few shows that you have loved the most?

Oh, that's such a good question. It's so hard to pick just one. I think, you know, the Real Housewives has really, like, a soft place in my heart. I like some franchises more than others. I think my overall number one reality show of all time is probably RuPaul's Drag Race. Just as someone who studies, like, gender and sexuality, and there's so many different themes in there, plus, it's just really entertaining. So, yeah, I'd say RuPaul's Drag Race.

Okay. I have not actually seen that one. And I know you have to got started early, like so many of us on Real World and Road Rules way back in the day.

Yeah. Were you a Road Rules watcher?

Yes. I loved Real World, I think, more than Road Rules. I don't know. There's something. I like this intersection of life and work. I even love Shark Tank. I hate to admit that I enjoyed the Apprentice.

Yeah.

But that's me. I always used to play business as a kid. I like things that have some auspices of trying to work, you know?

So you liked the Real World more when they all kind of had a job to do together. Yeah.

And had to cooperate and had to try to figure that out. I'm curious with Roni. So Real Housewives of New York. I have to confess that I watched that while I was working on my third book. And I don't know why I think writing a book is such an intellectual exercise. And then reality TV can be such a. Such an anesthetic, as you put it in your book, what is it that you enjoy? Since you mentioned RuPaul's Drag Race and Real Housewives, what is it about those franchises that you think speak to you the most? You said a little bit about Drag Race.

You know, it's interesting because part of the appeal of reality TV for me, too, is that it's kind of this anesthetic that you can just let wash over you. Especially, you know, in the world today when the stakes for so many things are so high, the stakes on these shows are so low. It's about, like, who got invited to Ramona's Barbecue and who didn't. And there's something kind of freeing and relaxing about watching that. A show where even if people are fighting, right, Even if there's drama, the stakes, it's not life and death, people. It's a barbecue. So I do kind of appreciate that as kind of the anesthetic. And, you know, so much of what I do like as a professor is kind of so cerebral that it's kind of nice to like switch off my brain for a little bit. But then of course, I don't always completely switch off my brain because occupational hazard. I'm still a sociologist. So even when I'm watching these shows, I'm still kind of analyzing them, the gendered nuances and what they're saying about race and class. They're intellectually interesting for me, but in a way they're also fun for me because I could just kind of like, okay, take a breath and let go.

I find it so reassuring as well to kind of zone out with it, let it wash over me, exactly as you said. Why do you think that some of us derive such pleasure from it and then others, like my husband, he hates it. He says, like, I feel like I'm on a tranquilizer. And he says it almost similar language, but in a bad way. Makes him feel genuinely guilty. Not just a guilty pleasure, but he feels dumber when he's watching. He can't stand how mundane or minute the things are or the fake drama. Sometimes he'll watch Love island with me. And I just got hooked into Love is Blind. Thought you were quoted in the New York Times article. I finally caved because it became such a talk piece show. But though it was like, I love analyzing why people act the way they do. How would I be in that situation? You know, how would you handle this? Or seeing those relationships even from Love is Blind, Try to enter the real world and like they have to meet each other with their flawed selves or the day to day. How messy someone is. Like, I love this kind of stuff, but for some people, they can't stand it. I'm just wondering what you think the difference is.

I know. Well. So my husband doesn't like reality TV shows either. I think I would say that he hates them, but he's just not a fan. But I always kind of use him as the barometer for like what people actually know about reality tv. Because sometimes he'll know about shows like Developments before I do because there'll be like pieces in like the Washington Post or the New York Times. I'll be. Do you hear about this? Like, no. And I study this and you don't know anything about it, but is kind of interesting. So I think they're like two things. On one hand, you can watch reality TV cerebrally, right? As it sounds like you do and I do to some Extent you can parse, you know, the motivations behind people's actions, the psychological motivation, sociologically, what it tells us about ourselves and our social dynamics. So there's absolutely a way to watch these shows in kind of a cerebral, more intellectual way. But I also think it's interesting that people kind of feel the need to kind of justify their love of reality tv. The idea that it's is a guilty pleasure. Even people who admit that it's a pleasure, it's guilty, there's something kind of bad or wrong about watching it because it's not intellectual, because it's not cerebral, which is fascinating to me because so much of what we consume, right, like in our leisure time is not cerebral. Watching sports isn't necessarily a cerebral pastime, but people enjoy it and they don't feel the need to apologize for it. So it's kind of fascinating to me that we kind of have to sit there and say, oh, but I watch it this river way. Or I feel guilty about it, but I watch it anyway. When in fact, why isn't it just enough to say we watch it and we enjoy it, and who cares if it doesn't have any nutritional content, right?

Or even justifying it by saying, oh, I'm a professor by day and I watch reality tv. Or for me, oh, I was writing a book that explains why I binged season one of Roni, you know. But part of what attracted me to your work, and I love that you've chosen this as part of the course you teach and your academic research is, you say, an often ridiculed form of entertainment, seemingly marginal to the serious business of life. Reality TV is, in fact, a pop cultural touchstone that illuminates our everyday experiences and can help us make sense of complex social forces. The genre is a funhouse mirror, to be sure, but one that powerfully reflects the contours of our social world. And another thing, you say, it takes the elements that are central to our culture, our collective preferences, our norms and taboos, and the jagged edges of our social inequalities and beams them out to us in frenetic detail. There is a function it is serving, and not just when there's a writer's strike. It seems that we are magnetized, at least some of us, like you said, those of us that are fans, magnetized watching extreme versions of ourselves on screen and almost vicariously living what they are or contemplating how we would be, how would we react, how would we handle something without having to be out in the world doing it? Because sometimes being out in the world is stressful enough.

Yeah. It's interesting that reality TV still retains this stigma, first of all, because it's been around for so long and it doesn't look like it's going anywhere anytime soon. If anything else, if anything, it's like kind of branching off into different iterations. Right. Like YouTubers and TikTokers. And more people watch reality TV than not. Studies show. So it's kind of interesting that it's still considered kind of deviant, that it has this kind of stink attached to it, despite the fact that so many people really are watching. Again, yeah. Like as you point out, I argue in the book that it teaches us something about ourselves. It reflects, it's kind of a broken mirror, funhouse mirror reflection of our culture. But when so many people are watching, you have to think that it's doing something to us too. And I talk about that in the book as well.

What is it doing to us?

It's hard to kind of tease out correlation and causation. There are a lot of studies that show that people who watch lots of reality TV are kind of different from other people in some ways. They're more likely to use social media. Some studies show they're more likely to be materialistic or they're even more likely to go hot tubbing on dates. Now, of course, that doesn't mean that the reality TV shows are causing them to go hot tubbing on dates. Maybe hot tubbers are also just more likely to watch reality tv. But there are some studies that really do show kind of causal link between the things that we're seeing on these shows and how we behave in the world. Like there was one experimental study that looked at the show the Biggest Loser, which is like a weight loss show. And it showed that people who were exposed to that versus exposed to a nature show came away with a greater dislike of overweight people, which is kind of interesting. After just one viewing of the show, it kind of changed how they saw the world. There's a study that looked at the show 16 and Pregnant which found a causal link between watching that show and reduced teen pregnancy rates that was published in a high profile economic journal. So there is kind of ample sociological, economic, you know, psychological evidence that this material that we're viewing is impacting us in some ways that we probably would say are negative, but I think in positive ways as well.

You say there's this voyeuristic element that we've been talking about. There's this great line in your book. We're voyeurs but part of what tantalizes us about these freak shows is that the freaks are ourselves. And that part of reality tv, especially as the genre has expanded, is it's taking things from the fringes as well and pulling it into collective consciousness. So I'm thinking about shows like Hoarders or Intervention, that there must be something semi educational, although it is a little bit. You know, I'd never want to, like, profit off of people's suffering in the sense of even profiting for entertainment. But there is something educational of saying, like, this is what hoarding is. And if you watch enough episodes, you see the psychological challenges that might contribute to hoarding or childhood trauma that leads to drug use and how the helpers that come in on the show try to talk them through the process. And so there is something about pulling the fringes outward to the masses, right, about some of these shows?

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because earlier I said, even if there's no nutritional value in reality tv, like, so what? But I mean, I do obviously think that there is nutritional value there. And one of the things is, I do think reality TV can teach us about our social world. It kind of takes us into these kind of nooks and crannies in the social landscape where scripted media often hasn't gone. And one of the things that, you know, I mentioned RuPaul's Drag Race, which I love, One of the things I love about that show is 100% of what I know about drag. I know from RuPaul's Drag Race. So it kind of exposed me to this completely new area of life that I would have known nothing about. Now, that doesn't mean that we should watch and accept everything uncritically. But at the same time, I do think people learn from watching reality tv, especially being exposed to kind of different walks of people from different walks of life, different types of people, different demographics of people whom they might not otherwise meet.

Do you think the category of reality show that any one of us is most attracted to says something about our personality? Like, is there some unconscious drive or desire or need being met? Like, for example, the fact that I mostly love these dating shows under the premise of Lavi, we know it's, like, often quite forced or fast. Do you think there's something to that?

You know, there's so many reasons, because I often get asked, like, why do people watch? And I think there's so many different reasons that we watch is we really can't pin down just one, as you mentioned. Right. There's this voyeurism. Obviously, you watch the train wreck to remind yourself that even if you're messed up in your own ways, like, at least I'm not like those people over there, like, who are on the Bachelor. So there's that kind of train wreck thing. There's also the kind of parasocial aspect of it where we kind of form relationships with the people that we see on the screen, because it traffics in these kind of broad archetypes of, like, the crier or the hot one or the smart one. There's usually some character we can kind of point to and say, okay, that's most like me and kind of grab onto. And so we've kind of formed relationships with the people. There's so many different reasons that we watch. And so I could definitely see the reason or reasons that you watch reflecting something about yourself in a way. Although now I'm wondering what it reflects about me.

Well, I'm thinking, what do Drag Race and Vanderpump Rules, for example, what do they have in common? Is it exaggeration? Is it performance? Is it. I don't know. I wonder what you think again.

You know, I'm a sociologist who studies gender. So with the Real Housewives, which Vanderpump Rules is a spinoff of a Real Housewives show, I think that and the RuPaul's Drag Race, there's just so much, like, interesting gender stuff there and social class as well when it comes to the Real Housewives. But, I mean, at the same time, I have to be honest, the fights, they do reel me in. Right. I'm not just watching from some high horse. Right. Because I want to, like, parse these shows. They entertain me as well.

Yeah. I feel like on my end, I was always so challenged by dating and relationships that something in me must be trying to work out why I felt things were so challenging or versions of my former self that would have been a people pleaser or would have fell under gaslighting or. I don't know. I'm looking at these patterns of how people interact in a romantic relationship. There's something about that that always vexed me. I'm married now, but I mean, nonetheless, it's almost like it activates a certain problem solving part of my mind. And as you said, not that it has to.

We'll be right back, just after this.

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You also mentioned this parasocial relationship. Okay, now it is embarrassing when I admit to how many hours of Love Island I have watched. I got to the point where with this latest season, Love Island UK is the only way to go. Australia and US have nothing to on the UK version, but this is like a 66 episode every single day and I was going through a stressful time by the end of that arc of that season. I think the latest I saw was season eight. I want to say these are my friends. These were like, I'm listening to podcast debriefs the next day. I'm not even on social media, but I would log on to see are they still together or how are these couples doing? Talk to us about this parasocial relationship.

I hear you, right? Like I am that person who wakes up in the middle of the night and is like, you know, are Pam and Judd from Real World San Francisco still together and has to Google it. I'm right along with you on this. It's kind of interesting because reality TV you mentioned, you know, listening to them, the podcasts or going on social media and reality TV really has benefited from this kind of multi platform approach where it's you can watch the show but then you can go outside the show and you can tweet at the stars and you can buy their products and you can listen to their podcasts. And so that kind of strengthens that kind of parasocial relationship that we feel. And yes, we feel parasocial. We watch other shows too. In the end, like we might feel a loss of these characters or even read a book. That's true, we might form parasocial relationships, but there's some sense that it might be stronger in reality TV because these are people who are ostensibly being themselves. So even if there is scripting, even if there's some acting involved, it's Kim Kardashian ostensibly being Kim Kardashian. She's not playing a role. And then we can go and tweet at Kim Kardashian. And so there's a sense that it might be stronger in the case of reality TV because these are people who are not acting ostensibly. They're just being themselves.

It's curious to me that we can develop such affinity for them. By we, I mean I. Where it's also this exposure effect. And I do think there's research that shows the more you see something, the greater your affinity, the stronger it will grow over time. Part of the reason reality TV gave us a president, that there's something of just seeing the person, whether you think you like them or not, that just seeing them. But it's crazy how toward the end, like, I'll genuinely care about them or I'll be genuinely upset if I find out one of these couples that I really fell in love with has broken up with each other. And it's like it affects me.

Yeah.

As if these were two people in my extended social network, which obviously they aren't. But it would, like, make me as sad as hearing about not maybe not a close friend going through a big breakup, but certainly a distant one.

But I don't know if that's so weird, though. I mean, we've always kind of been moved by media. Like, even if you read a book and it's completely fictional, it might make you cry, it might make you angry, even though, you know these are completely made up scenarios, at least in the case of reality tv, these are ostensibly real people in somewhat real situations.

That's true. You also mentioned the Kardashians. How can we avoid the topic? My question there. So I avoided keeping up with the Kardashians for a long, long, long time. And then it moved to Hulu and it was just in my face. Every day I tried to say, I'm not interested. And then one day, Danielle, one day I caved. And I feel like there was a sense of schadenfreude that I had with this show and with the Kardashians. And even like some people talk about hate watching a show or hate listening to a podcast. Hate is a strong word, but on one hand, I can't stand them. Although I do like Khloe. One Think piece said that everyone can relate to at least one Kardashian, and there's so many generations that that is the hook is there's one you might like. But let's say, Kim, like, I actually kind of can't stand. Sorry, Kim. Hope she doesn't listen to this, but yet I'll watch, like, what is this? And then the schadenfreude is, oh, she's ruining this dress at the Met Gala. I hope she has to pay for it or whatever it is. But I find myself sort of, like, getting angry. And then the schadenfreude is, like, if something negative happens, I mean, I don't want to wish ill on anybody, but it comes up very strongly around this particular family at this franchise. I think it's because I don't resonate with their values or some of the ways they do things. But how on earth could it be that someone like me, like, I will actually watch a show and still say that I don't like the show, what's going on there?

But, I mean, people have hate watched, like, my students would say, since the dawn of time. Not since the dawn of time, but people have been hate watching shows for a long time. Right. So that's nothing new.

What's that about?

Like you said, it's a schadenfreude or the voyeurism thing, where you're like, well, like, I might have messed up today, but at least I didn't, like, publicly embarrass myself by wearing Marilyn's dress to the Met Gala. Have all these haters on social media. So I think there is that whole, like. I'm not saying you're doing this right, but I think there is that whole, like, juxtaposing ourselves. I certainly do it to other people on the show. But your experience with the Kardashians, like, there's a lot going on that kind of reflects more generally why people tune into reality tv. You're watching, but you don't really like them, but you're kind of hate watching. There's that voyeurism aspect. But also you mentioned, like, Chloe, you kind of, like, there's usually one. And that's not just the Kardashians, as they pointed out. Like, they're archetypes.

Right.

So usually there's one figure on a show you can say, like, oh, I'm most like, that person.

Yes.

Even if these shows have these, like, insane scenarios where they're dating in underground bunkers or wearing prosthetic noses or they're Kardashians and you, like, can't relate to their lifestyle, like, in any way, there's still kind of something you can grab onto and say, like, okay, Chloe, like, I understand her struggle. Not the specifics of her struggle, but I Understand Kind of like the underlying basis of her struggle. To a certain extent.

Yeah. And maybe to that end, with the funhouse mirror analogy, there's the one that any of us can relate to, and then there's the one that we can't stand. And even the one we can't stand is informing, well, why is it that I can't stand this person? What are the qualities? What are the values? What are the choices they make? And then it does still spark reflection and. And part of me, I think I do also get hooked in. Speaking of the back to the anesthetic vibe, there's so much dopamine and bright colors and fancy things. I know.

The fancy things are amazing. That's also why I like the Real Housewives.

Yeah. It kind of like, tickles my senses. Kind of like I try not to try to keep up with the Joneses or overly focus on material things. And yet something is pleasing to the eye about seeing luxury. Or at least to me. Maybe it's my Libra. Libra sun sign. But, like, seeing the luxury or the bright colors or the quick cuts of fancy things and the adventures and the travel and the this. And there I am, sitting in my living room, exhausted, you know, just kind of like, getting taken for on the dopamine machine.

Absolutely. I mean, I think that's been true for a while. Right. Like, even going back to, like, Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous, we like to kind of gawk at the slick lives of the rich, even though we might never be in that position. I mean, Khloe Kardashian's like, a snack closet alone is, like, probably bigger than my whole house. It's amazing, right?

Yes.

So you're certainly not alone in that. I think that's part of the reason that people tune into the Real Housewives too. Although there is that kind of interesting nuance there where, like, people like to gawk at the rich, but they also like to see the rich fall.

Yeah.

So I think that's part of what's going on with the Kardashians too. It's like, we can't feel too bad about hate watching them because, like, look at all they have. If they were, like, barely scraping by, it wouldn't maybe feel as good to watch them fall.

Yeah. There's some really shady seeming business practices that go on, and then I find that interesting to read about those or hear about them from people who've kind of been suppressed in the media and then look at their media machine. Like, you never, almost never see a single nanny on the show. But you know that they each probably have five of them. You rarely see the people in the helping positions. And it's just painted as like, oh, they're all just the most perfect parents and so present. But there's so much.

And then when you do, they're sort of like the foils to the main characters.

Right. And you were talking about class, which is part of why I find Below Deck very fascinating. I was a latecomer to that as well.

Me too.

Yeah. Just the contrast on the actual boat, you see the guests and how quirky the guests are. And of course, the show ends up trying to find quirkier, quirkier charter guests. But in real time, you see the service providers below deck figuring out how to cater to every whim, every want and need, while managing their dynamics as coworkers. And I just find it utterly fascinating to see the class differences, to see the entitlement of some of the charter guests and how does the service providers respond to that. And like, oh, they're just the class learning alone is very fascinating. Like you said with Lifestyle of the Rich and Famous as an OG in that arena.

I know, except Lifestyles of Rich and Famous only showed the lifestyle of the rich and famous. Right. Whereas below deck, you can see that juxtaposition. No, I agree. It's an amazing kind of study on class. Although I wouldn't say that the people below deck are. They're more like. I would say they're mainly middle class and. Yeah, mostly white. Not all, but that's true. A lot of white, middle class, white people on that show.

They're doing well. And now they're all good looking and, you know, able bodied, like.

Right.

And it's interesting seeing them progress, like the longer that they work on these 200 yachts, seeing kind of their tastes and lifestyles unfold.

Right. And then there's the whole behind the scenes stuff. Right. Where they're also now like influencers and have their own followings and they're probably making like a lot of money from that.

You teach a class on this. What's your objective with your class? So you just wrapped a semester. I mean, I just love how you take such a academic, sociological lens on all of this. So when you have these new students come in, I'd be curious to know what types of assignments you give and if there's anything you're hoping that they'll take away by the end of the semester.

Yeah, that's such a good question. So my book actually kind of stems from the Class. I taught the class before, for years before I wrote my book. And really, the class is just kind of an introduction to sociology. I say it's like Sociology 101. Through the lens of reality TV, like, you're going to learn what it means to, like, think sociologically about the world. You're going to learn kind of these major kind of theories, some major subfields within sociology class. Race, gender. Right. Deviance. But we do that through the lens of reality tv. So what I do each week is I pair, like, a classic sociological reading with an episode of a TV show. So, like a reading about gender and then an episode of RuPaul's Drag Race. So we talk about the reading, and then we talk about how that's demonstrated in the TV show. And, yeah, it's a really popular class. Students still seem to like it, although the students are now, like, watching completely different reality shows from me. So I kind of have to keep up with them. But it's good. It keeps me current, I guess.

What's a Gen Z reality show that they love?

Their reality stars are like people who, like, ride pelotons and do YouTube videos. They're like, oh, yeah, I watch Real Housewives with my mom. Yeah, maybe some of them are still, like, getting together and watching the Bachelor and stuff. But, like, their kind of mode of watching reality TV is very different from certainly the way that I grew up consuming reality tv.

Right. It just occurs to me now that's why we have these twitch superstars or gamers or youtubers. TikTokers. Did you see the Charlie? Oh, gosh, I'm forgetting her last name. Charlie, who was, like, one of the most popular Tiktokers. Her family, they had a reality show on Hulu.

Oh, I know what you're talking about.

How am I forgetting her last name?

But he's like an Italian last name. I know you're talking about.

Oh, d'. Amillo d'. Amelo. Yeah. Charlie.

Yeah. Yeah.

She seemed so sad and miserable in the Hulu series, and it seemed like it's such a struggle for young people who come up through reality TV to maintain their grounding because it's almost this inevitable thing. First of all, as you mentioned earlier, we have this crazy tall poppy syndrome thing in our society and in many cultures globally, where people want to see somebody rise only to cut them down if they grow too tall. But it was just an interesting case because she grew to be one of the most popular creators on TikTok and seemed so trapped by it.

I do think about that. I Mean, you know, as I say in the book, is reality TV kind of moral or ethical? Is kind of a different question than what I'm looking at, but I do kind of struggle with that. Right. Like, especially, what do these shows do to kids, especially, who can't really consent to sign up? You know, it's in some ways bad enough being a child star who's known for playing a role, but then kind of being known for yourself being yourself. It seems like that would be so much worse. Not necessarily, but it has the potential to be so much worse in the long run because people kind of feel that they know you and they have these parasocial relationships with you. I mean, I enjoy watching kids on reality tv. I think they're super interesting, especially because a lot of the time they can't be coached. And so they really are saying real things, unlike the adults, who at this point oftentimes are kind of like behaving for the cameras. But at the same time, like, the question that reality tv, the toll that it takes on the people who are in it, kids and adults. Right. Like, is a whole separate thing.

We'll be right back just after this.

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You brought up quantum morals, and in your book, you talk about the importance of people being there for the quote, right reasons, whether it's the Bachelor. That's become a known trope, of course, but it comes through in a lot of these shows of there's this constant questioning, is this person here for the right reasons? I also caved recently and watched Farmer Wants a Wife.

Oh, I haven't seen that. Is it good? Should I add that to my list.

I enjoy it. And the producers know what they're doing, of course. But I say yes, it's worth adding to the list. It's a compressed timeline for what they're trying to do. But you get the fish out of water vibes of city girl lands on a farm. Could she make it here? How are they going to integrate? It's a little bit of, like, kind of polyamorous dating, because these farmers have, like, six women living on the farm. And it's quirky. It's quirky.

Oh, it sounds amazing.

Okay. Yeah. I got into it because living in a city myself, in New York City, I'm wondering, could I make it on a farm? No, of course not. Could I make it? And then you wonder, what are these girls doing there? Like, why did they apply? Why was. Did this ever seem like a good idea? I also get interested in the elements of compromise. Like, well, this girl doesn't want to give up. Woman doesn't want to give up her career. Or this farmer seems to want a worker, not a wife. Right. I just find that kind of thing. I've been drawn to it, let's say. And even the family visits, that's fish out of water in the other direction. And there is always this searching, especially now, especially as so much reality TV provides a platform, as you said, for people to then extend their personal brand out into the world, into the product universe that people are constantly wondering, are they there for the right reasons? And I don't know. What's your take on this? I think in the Love is blind article you were quoted in, could anyone be there for the right reason? You know, anyone who signs up for a reality show on this premise, is there any such thing as a right reason?

In that case, the sociological answer. We talk about right reasons as though they're, like, completely universal and ahistorical. Right? We like, obviously, you're gonna marry for love, and you're gonna marry your best friend and you're gonna, like, marry someone you're compatible with. But, like, historically, that hasn't been true for much of history. This idea that romantic love was tied to marriage is a somewhat modern phenomenon. And so when people on the show say, like, oh, well, you're not really into him, you're just here for the wrong reasons, you're not here for the right reasons. It's like, well, the idea of, like, what's right is always kind of a social construct. It doesn't just exist in the world. And so I always kind of have a little bit of Skepticism, like, yeah, obviously I have a skepticism about why people come on the shows, especially at this point. That's one of the reasons I like watching old school reality TV is because there's kind of less of that, like, I'm going to be an influencer vibe. But at the same time, I don't know, this whole judgment about the right reasons. Yeah, right reasons have never kind of been universal and applied to all.

Yeah. What's funny, as you're saying it, it makes me think that, well, someone trying to build their career by leveraging this TV show as a platform, you could say that's the right reason. Like, oh, you're doing something smart to build your social following.

Especially if they both are the Bachelor and is like the woman who's buying for his hand. If they're both doing the same thing. No harm, no foul.

That's true. There was a New Yorker piece recently where somebody said that the royals are the most ancient form of reality tv.

It's true. Yes. They're famous for being famous.

Yes.

Just the Kardashians, you know, they're famous for being famous, they're famous for doing nothing. They're famous for being part of a families. Not that the royal family does nothing, but I don't think the Kardashians do nothing either. I think they actually work pretty hard. Yeah, they might not do the kind of work that people like, might morally agree with, but I see them out there working. I don't think they're just sitting back. They wouldn't have had the stamina they've had just kind of sitting back and doing nothing. The fact that, like, there have always been people who kind of were famous for being famous, like the royals, they were famous for being part of a family. It's an interesting critique of families like the Kardashians for me, because, like, that's always been true of some people. There have always been people who were famous, not necessarily for any, like, particular talent they had.

Yes. And stamina seems like a very apt word because to withstand that level of scrutiny, constant, unrelenting scrutiny, as the Harry and Megan documentary, kind of unveiled of just what that was like for Harry growing up is really intense. And it's interesting thinking about the royals, or royals in general, as the original ancient form of reality tv, because there again, we have the class thing, that there's like something aspirational about following them. And then I think obviously it's more prominent in the uk, but like following the royal drama, there's the schadenfreude. That's coming in.

The voyeurism for sure.

Yeah, the voyeurism, but the stamina. When I saw Harry and Meghan and you just see how many meet and greets there are every day. All these eyes on you, all these people, this attention, the voracious tabloid press like that is a skill, certainly that the Kardashians and the Royals have in common.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

I never really thought about that. The withstanding scrutiny parallel there. Yeah, I never really thought about it that way before, but that's kind of perfect.

Producer intervention and then paying participants or not, these seem like levers in the universe of reality TV that kind of affect how a show is going to go and therefore how it lands with those of us watching. Do you have any strong take on either one or even a sociological take?

So one of the sort of comments that I get about my book or critiques is it's not real. We talked a little bit about that. Like, reality TV is not real. It's fake, fakeity, fake. It's scripted. And I don't really refute that. I don't think anyone at this point watching reality TV thinks it's just like a pure mirror of reality. Obviously there's intervention at various levels. Some shows more so than others. Some shows, you know, to come out are basically scripted. Some shows a little bit more of a free for all. I don't know when it comes to producer intervention, like, some people have the sense that that kind of like ruins the purity of the shows. To me, not so much. I mean, I don't really have any particularly strong stance on it. I think morally is another question. If the producers are, like, plying people with alcohol or giving them psychological tests and then exploiting their psychological weaknesses, like morally and ethically is another question. But when it comes to the kind of, like, purity of reality tv, I mean, I don't really have a strong take one way or the other on the kind of producer intervention. One of the reasons there's so much reality TV is because it is so cheap to produce. One of the reasons it's so cheap to produce in our capitalist system is because, like, sure, there's exploitation happening. Even the crews, sometimes they don't have to be paid, like, union wages. The participants oftentimes, as you point out, aren't paid. They don't have these, like, ballooning salaries that actors have. I mean, I think if they are, like, performing on a show, then they should be paid. They should be compensated for their performance. I remember there was like a kind of Kerfuffle. Like a while back when the Kardashians first started bringing. I think it was just only Mason at that point, bringing their kids on the show. And they wanted their kids to be compensated like they are. And people were like, I can't believe they're using their kids. I mean, whether or not their kids should be on the show is another question. But if their kids are there, like, performing labor on the show, then, yes, I think they should be compensated just like everybody else who was performing labor on the show. But it's kind of interesting that they got kind of a backlash for that, though. But the carnations could do anything and get a backlash.

That's true. And they'll monetize anything.

Exactly.

They will figure out how to monetize specks of dust. So they'll find a way. Oh, this has been so fun. Thank you so much. Danielle. If you could leave listeners with one small experiment, like either one show to watch or one piece of homework you would give to your class or even the next time they're watching any form of reality tv, what would it be?

First of all, if you don't like reality tv, I'm not here to convince you to like it. No skin off my nose. I often say I don't have stock in Viacom. There are people who, like, fervently hate reality TV and want to tell me about it. That's fine. There are things that I hate that you probably like. That's totally fine with me. But I think you can't deny that reality tv, especially because there is so much of it and so many people watch it, that it teaches us something about our social world. Maybe it's not something that you want to know, but it does. So I would say even if you're not a fan of reality tv, even if you think it's horrible, you never want to watch. I would watch one episode of something and kind of think about, like, what are the broader social dynamics at work here? How are kind of race, class, gender, and sexuality being portrayed on the show? And what does that tell us about those things in our broader culture?

I love it. Thank you so much. I wish we could all take your class vicariously.

I wish you could, too. It's so fun. I love teaching that class.

Yes. Well, listeners, if you are interested in any of these topics, make sure you get a copy of Danielle's book. True what reality TV says about us and Danielle. I'll put all the links in the show notes, but is there anywhere else you want to send people to learn more or keep in touch.

Sure, yeah, you can go to my website www.danielindemay.com or I'm also DJ Lindy DJ L I N D E E on Twitter so you can follow me there.

Amazing. Thanks so much Danielle and big thanks everybody for listening.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivotlist, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to, and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

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