338: Is Midlife Messing with Your Enoughness? + Busting Not Enough Scams with Mandy Lehto

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Yes. Okay. There's so much seductiveness around the Nexting and the dopamine and the having something to look forward to, but on its own, that can also feel slightly shallow and slightly disappointing because you kind of know that that won't be the thing. There'll always be another. It's like a hall of mirrors in the fun house. You know, it keeps going and going and going.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Welcome back, Pivoters. I am so delighted to be here today with Mandy Leto. She is a speaker, writer and coach with a doctorate from Cambridge University, and in her former career she was a director at a global investment bank. She is currently the host of a wonderful podcast called Enough the Podcast, a show for recovering perfectionists and overachievers. When Mandy isn't coaching leaders, she's parenting her two musical teenagers with her husband or walking Herbie, her toy poodle, on Wimbledon Common. Mandy, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me. And I hope Herbie, our toy poodle, is not going to make a cameo appearance here. Thanks for having me, Jenny.

I just scheduled an interview to be on someone else's show and in the pre scheduling small print, they said please be in a place that is quiet, no animal noises. And I'm like, okay, I'll try.

Short of booking a studio, I can't control when Ryder barks. It's just how it is.

We're all about authenticity here.

That's right. And good enough needs to be good enough. There might be some organic soundscape of the household happening.

Indeed. Indeed.

I want to kick off this conversation with one of your recent episodes you're celebrating at the time in this recording, hitting 50 episodes of your wonderful show. And in honor of that, you did a conversation on midlife enough crises. And I've talked a lot on this show about topics like perfectionism and people pleasing. I mean, you and I both know this is why we have a podcast to work through our own issues. And specifically the title is Is middle age messing with your enoughness? It is not something I've covered yet because when I first started my online platform and presence, I was in my early 20s. And now this year I'm approaching a big decade marker. I'll be turning 40 in October and I think I'm hitting that middle age bracket. I read the newspaper and they're talking about midlife crises and it's people in their late 30s and their 40s and here I am. And it's not something that we've talked about on the show even after eight years of specifically how middle age might mess with your enoughness, no matter how much self helping a person has done. So can you just dive into that with me a little bit to start?

Midlife is such an interesting time because, I mean, who even knows where that begins these days, as you said, some seeing where you see it in The Press. Late 30s. I just turned 52 last weekend. So I think I'm safe to say that I'm firmly in middle age. And this is such a big pivotal time because I feel that I'm definitely in between those two valleys. So David Brooks, who's an author, prolific author, and he writes a column for the New York Times, he talks about the two mountains in life where in our early decades of getting into our careers, maybe when we're in university, when we're in our first, second, third jobs, we're accumulating status and titles and shiny things. And there's a lot of this external validation in the kind of figuring out who we are, what it means to be me and who I think I'm supposed to be. So I definitely played out a lot of my, you know, I should do this, I should get married and have kids. I should become a leader in a thought leader in my career. I should want shiny things. So a lot of the first mountain stuff was very much defined by others telling me that I'm succeeding and pushing myself hard to be somebody. And then there kind of comes a time. I don't know if that started for me when I was in my mid-40s, when I was kind of coming out of a debilitating burnout, having left an investment banking career and having two small children and parental health problems and all these things that it felt like the stitching of life was coming loose in so many places. I went into an early menopause. Just lots of things going on that none of that shiny stuff on the first mountain had prepared me for. So, you know, a new Chanel bag or a new piece of technology or running after another accolade was not going to help me. Being in this part of my life and all those things started to feel a bit like, yeah, meh, been there, done that. And this is when I found David Brooks's book and his concept of the Second mountain, of the second mountain really being about values. Because our preferences, our likes and dislikes, those things can change, but our values tend to be quite different. Steady and starting to live a life where success isn't necessarily based on those external validations and those high fives and those shiny things and blue ribbons and trophies and showing the world who I am, but rather in this second mountain place of who am I actually without all of those things.

And what really matters to me and what is the point of all this? So is this a kind of proverbial midlife crisis or midlife enlightenment or midlife questioning? I like to think about it as this being in this place between mountains and success looks different from here. Being of service looks different from here. And then, you know, there's the practicality. Your body starts to look different when you're in this place too. So it's a real place of contemplation and about sitting in those uncomfortable questions that maybe being on the first mountain, like being in that chronic perpetual busyness and exhaustion of all the things where life is lifing and suddenly being in this place of like, just doesn't light me up anymore. That is like where I became really interested in the unto picking of all of these things that can tend to happen to me and to so many people that I've been coaching who are in this same midlife discovery place.

It's so powerful how you describe it as the stitching of life coming loose, or at least the stitching of those shiny things holding us together in any way. And I feel like that stitching this ball of yarn is actually so deep and complex because it's true. In our early years, we're all about striving and just trying to tick the boxes. Do I have the right job? Do I have the right relationships? No, let me fail a million times. Get that right. And even there are different awards or accolades you can get when you're young, like these 30 under 30 lists or I remember being on all these Gen Y Blogger, top tens and feeling great. But there is a shift in midlife. I have more browser tabs open now. It's not just my career. You know, I have a husband, I have a dog. I do have a business. And like you said, it was so powerful. In your podcast, you're even saying things like, maybe you're not sleeping as well through the night. Maybe you can't drink wine anymore. Maybe you've gained some weight and throw in the pandemic. And I'm like, yes, Mandy, that's me. And so it's confronting not quite having the metabolism or even the energy, but there is so much more wisdom setting in and yet shifting right into midlife. Like, let's say, maybe being at the beginning of that journey. It's almost like that, you know, when a train, the conductor or someone has to pull this lever and you gotta switch tracks. You're like, oh, I was going this way. I gotta go this way now. It's interesting. And last thing I'll say, like, I have so many thoughts, is I'm noticing myself. There is, like, this cultural programming to complain about aging because it's not authentic to me. I just feel myself going to say things automatically. And certainly on social media, we see everybody having every which procedure to make sure that we look some certain shiny, acceptable way. So I'm trying to also really watch my language. So there's the internal story of enoughness, and then there's also just all these stories about aging and where we're supposed to be and keeping up with which Jones is where. Now it's a global competition on social media. It's a strange time to be doing this given the cultural context. And it's a strange time even individually navigating these transitions.

I think you've said that so beautifully, and I'm still in that place. And I don't think it has to be that you make a decision that it becomes so binary in that respect that, of course, there is the wisdom and there's all this expertise, and it's just this. I just care so much less about certain things that used to take up so much mental bandwidth and energy, which is a plus. And then there are moments when you know you're taking off your eye makeup in the mirror and you're looking at yourself when you're completely pasty looking, saying, oh, who is that? Who is that person in the mirror? So I'm not saying I'm loving all of the parts of it, but I think part of what I'm sitting with and I By any means, do not have this figured out, Jenny. But there's this invitation to be in a place of self acceptance. And one thing I'm noticing is that I'm really relying more and more on my sense of humor. I'm really flying my own freak flag a lot more, like really embracing the things that make me make me. And not only the things that I thought were kind of publicly acceptable, like really bringing more of my quirk and my sense of humor. Because these things can offset things that feel like they're shifting, you know, like a sort of societal perception of youthful beauty.

So I think there are other facets that do come to the fore, but there is this softening, at least for me. I'm not speaking for all people, but there has been an acceptance and a realization that certain things, as I'm starting to navigate the foothills of my second mountain, have become a lot more important relationships, including with myself, that there's this need. When I was navigating my first mountain, I had this addiction, addiction to striving and this need to be special and important and I mustn't be mediocre. Then I had this uncanny ability to push myself to my limits, to achieve. It's like I achieve, therefore I am. And it was so much of this proving energy that got so much external validation. You know, it's like one of the only addict. Well, maybe the only addiction that we're publicly praised for. So true. And it feels like that is something that it still appears. I'm not going to say that I've like completely recovered from that. The temptation is always there to rely on those old standbys. But as I said, for me, anyway, there's this softening and this remembering how to recalibrate towards what's really important. And I'm in this place of figuring out right now, like the whole thing about legacy, you know, what does that actually mean and what does it look like? And one of my mentors said to me, he's like, you know what, Mandy? Legacy isn't something that you leave because at that stage where you're no longer on the planet, you don't really care that much, as far as we know. So this concept that legacy is something that we live, and I love that because it gets me out of myself. One of the things that I realized when I was in my first mountain phase was how much comparisonitis I had going on. Like always checking who's doing better than me or am I doing better than someone else. So it's kind of like always figuring out where you are in the pecking order, which either makes you feel good temporarily, and that's at the expense of someone else, or else you're constantly feeling this chronic gnaw of not enoughness, therefore spurring you to strive even harder. And it's just so exhausting.

Well, I love your language. The chronic gnaw of not enoughness. It's so true. And I can relate to that very much of. Oh my gosh, just the gaping not enough hole. I thought if I gained five pounds over a certain number on the scale, I would not be lovable. Like, what kind of not enough scam is that? Yeah, where did that come from?

We'll be right back, just after this.

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It's funny, I had a smile when you were talking about as the antidote, embracing more of who you are and embracing your quirks and your humor. Just yesterday I was recording a solo episode for free time and out of nowhere I went on a rant and a story about my hair that I had been straightening it since high school and every time I had a keynote speaking gig, I would get a blowout at dry bar. And then one day, from a little feedback, a guy I was dating. Certainly the pandemic accelerated it, but I thought, I have wavy hair. Like why do I think that I need to straighten it or get it blown out in order to look professional or look a certain way or leave the house or I have wavy hair. Like guess what universe, guess what world, my hair is wavy. And I just stopped getting it so done up for headshots I started letting it be wavy. So my public photos on my website online for keynotes, it's wavy. Surprise, surprise. And if it's a really Bad hair day. I, you know, figure out how to put it back. And even in my headshots, this was now at least five years ago. But I started to say, please don't overdo my makeup. I want it to look like I could do it at home. And I know that's a weird thing to say, but I don't want to give some impression that I look a certain way. I look nothing like that 99 out of 100 days, you know, or 364 out of 365. So why not just put out the image of what I actually look like than to be trying so hard to be some random other thing?

It's so true. One of the things when I first looked at your podcast, when I started listening to it, I thought, oh, she has such great hair. And I'm not just saying that. I promise, somebody with poker straight hair is looking at your luscious, wavy hair.

And isn't it so funny? Yeah, it's like, I appreciate you saying that. And just the stories we make up, I mean, that's just a. Goes to show that we are mimetic creatures. You know, I had a great conversation. Luke Burgess. I always talk about his book wanting, but this is in our DNA. This is our nature to look at each other and kind of compare and measure. And yet it can be done so unskillfully and create so much suffering. I know you've talked a lot about that brick wall moment, that sometimes if we are unconsciously doing these things, the not enough scams, like we're buying into them, that we have this brick wall moment or several. Can you explain what that is?

Let's go back to the scams just for a moment. Like these scams are these. What I call these false beliefs that once we have a thought that we play through it enough times, it becomes automated because the brain is this marvelous piece of technology. But ultimately it's a lazy P. It wants to automate as much as possible to keep energy. It's a very energy heavy organ. So we have this belief that has been set down probably in childhood that I need to achieve to be lovable. I can't gain weight or else I'll be chubby or pudgy and then I won't be lovable. All of these things that we reinforce over and over and over until they become so automated that it's a belief and it feels like caps lock truth, which of course it isn't, but it feels like that. And because it's become so automated, we don't Even stop to question it anymore. So some of these, what I call scams are. I've referred to one already. It's like, I must achieve and be the best at what I do, or else I'm not lovable. I can't make mistakes. I have to appear a certain way. You know, lest I go to the supermarket without bright lipstick and see everybody that I know, and people think I need. What's wrong with you? Are you ill because I'm not wearing any makeup? Or I have to push through even if my body is screaming because I am nobody without my relentless drive. All of these scams about how we're supposed to be, how we're supposed to appear, what we're supposed to strive for, what success looks like. This is all laid down when we start to repeat those thoughts over and over and over again, and then we start to mistake them for who we are. And this can put us into this way of showing up in the world that can be so unhealthy to us, and particularly for people who identify as overachievers, that it can feel like a superpower to be a hardaholic. You know that I will take the hardest possible route. I will push boulders up hills in slippery flip flops, and then the victory will be all the sweeter when I take the hard route all the time. There's this pride in it being so difficult, and then this secret resentment for when things come easily to other people. So these scams get laid down and they become almost like an IKEA manual for how we put ourselves together and how we show up in the world. And it can be super successful. You know, we can become very successful by using those beliefs and by driving ourselves in that way. On my own podcast, I was just talking about this with a consultant clinical neuropsychologist, and she said that our nervous systems actually can become wired to override any of our body's pleas for rest. So when we keep ourselves in these situations, when we're pushing ourselves to the extremes, our nervous systems normalize that, and therefore, it feels abnormal when we're trying to relax. I don't know if that resonates with you, Jenny, but if you've ever tried to go on holiday, if you've ever identified as an overachiever, can be pretty stressful. Totally.

Oh, absolutely. And I talk in free time that we have this energetic time blueprint that gets really ingrained, just like what you're saying. And specifically on vacation, I recorded a podcast called Crashing into Free Time, because I will tell myself, well, you better get all this stuff done on day one of your vacation if you want to enjoy the rest. Like, I have this inner tyrant just being like, you better achieve more so you can go rest. Like, I have to meet some bar in order to rest. And then the whole thing and then I feel guilty and then that spiral begins. And so, yes, I can relate. So with that.

So there's this wiring, right? Like, this is what the consultant clinical neuropsychologist says, that we become wired to jump through these hoops and to perform in this way and we find this kind of sweet spot that we can strive and push and push and push, but when we push beyond that, then it's when it starts to get complicated. And because we're in this tunnel. I used to be an investment banker and I would ride roughshod over all of my body's pleas for rest. It was kind of like my head was in disconnect from my body somehow. It's like the head is, we will push through this. Like there was some warped pride in being able to do that. That rest was for the weak. You can sleep when you're dead. All of those sorts of things. I mean, I heard those things growing up. And it's funny how those things become part of who we think we are. And what this doctor was telling me is that eventually when it becomes really dangerous and our proverbial meter goes into the red and starts bleeping, that we're getting dangerously low, the mind wants to continue in spite of all the bleeping going on, the red lights, the red flags, and eventually the body will take us out. So that's exactly what happened to me, is I kept pushing and pushing and pushing until I eventually collapsed. I physically collapsed in the gym because I was already burning out. And I thought, let's do the things that I always used to do. More caffeine, more high intensity interval training. Because those were always the things that had picked me out of a rut before until my body actually took me out. It's like the brain is somehow not getting the memo. The brain's not getting the memo that the red lights are flashing. So we're just going to take her down. And that's actually what happened. And I asked her about, like, why do we need to hit a brick wall? And she said, well, often people who are wired in this way don't tend to listen to the warning flares that the body sends up. So I think coming back to this whole thing about midlife, like, I'm right now Jenny in the messy middle of, like, trying to make peace with all of the abusive ways that I treated my body, I'm trying to get better at listening to signals. I don't think I'll ever not be an overachiever or not be a perfectionist, but I'm trying to let those things not become maladaptive because there are superpowers to those things.

Right? There is a silver lining. And then there's the flip side to all of it. For me, I realized it just never worked. When I tried to make those qualities go away completely, that doesn't quite work. Then I'm just rejecting a part of myself which creates another little battle. I'm curious, you said, you know, as you're working on this and in the messy middle of it, what are some of the more subtle signals that you've been able to detect as you improve building this muscle where short of the brick wall moment, you spot the warning signs a little sooner and have you, you know, what do those look like for you these days?

You were talking about the voice when you're on holiday, so.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

I've decided to name my voice because it helps me to separate myself from that vitriolic voice that tells me I should push through. And I notice that when I'm not achieving enough and I'm using air quotes now, when I'm not achieving enough, that voice which comes up in my head. So I've named her Judgy Janet. I wonder, do you have a name for your voice?

Oh, yes. I just did an episode who's Sitting in the Boardroom of youf Brain? I have a whole committee up there, and my friend Adrian and I were, like, naming them, personifying them, what they're wearing. So I haven't given them a name exactly the way you have, but I've given them sort of personality types.

It's kind of fun. It's fun to do that, isn't it?

Like, I have an older business school professor that just tells me my business is a joke kind of thing. Like, I'm not doing it by the book. I don't care enough about my financial statements. I'm not building a big team. He's like, just a cranky professor that wants it done a certain way. So tell me about Judgy Janet.

Judgey. Janet reminds me of the actress Maggie Smith. Or she could also be a Joan Collins. It just depends, you know, that very look down the nose at you and always, like, be pointing that fingernail. If it's the Joan Collins version, you Know that red lacquered fingernail. She points it at me, and she's constantly critiquing especially how I look and that I can't hack it. And everything is a critical dialogue. So I noticed that when Judgy Janet is in the house that my body feels quite tight. I started to notice the correlation. And when I start acting like a real jerk to myself, I think this is. I mean, when the sense of humor part comes in, and I'm realizing that our sense of humor is such a great tool. It's like a Swiss army knife in our toolkit. It can be useful for so many things. So I pull out my sense of humor, and I just kind of bat it back to Judgy Jen, like, oh, it's you again. Thanks for coming around. You know, I've been waiting for you.

I love it. Yeah. Yeah.

How do you deal with your professor?

Well, I could see you doing a podcast episode where you create a dialogue because you're so funny. You really are. Like, your humor is such an asset. How do I deal with mine? Well, yours is brilliant. For me, naming them helps, just knowing who's up there. The other thing that helps me, that we did, Adrienne and I together, helped each other. It was really helpful, actually, to have someone else asking, you know, because you're a coach, to just say, what is this part of you motivated by? What are they afraid of? So I find that the parts of me that think that I'm an imposter or not good enough or whatever it is, the perfectionist, they all have a motivation. They're all doing their best to keep Jennie Enterprises on the quote right track, according to them. And so I find that just understanding what are you really trying to do for me, if I would look at this in a generous way, and then what are you afraid of? And just realizing, as you said, these are often adaptive mechanisms from growing up that just aren't necessary anymore or they're not going to work for the next phase of life. So trying to notice it, that helps. That helps. Just separating it out of, oh, this isn't actually me, and it's not the truth. And then I wonder. I have a feeling that you lean on intuition a lot as well. But I try to continuously build the muscle of intuition so I can hear what's really true and get quiet and listen for downloads about what to do that's not based in fear. That's pulling me towards something. Not away from something, something else or compare and despair, as you mentioned.

Yes. I think the thing with intuition is. It's something that I've come to later in life. I think I probably had a lot of it when I was a kid, which helped me to build in some of these adaptive behaviors to begin with, but then it kind of went missing. I think it was like Fort Knox somewhere in my psyche, not to be seen or heard. And my head was running the starship Enterprise. Like, everything from the neck down was just, you know, the control center was running the show, and it was really inconvenient to know some of the things that my body was trying to say. So I think that's why the head was firmly in charge. I think I spent most of my adult life as a head on legs. And then when I had the burnout and I had to just stew in my own juices when I was bedridden for the better part of a year, I couldn't achieve or strive or do anything. I mean, I needed my husband's help to wash my hair, for heaven's sake. So I had to actually go through this detox period of being and not even having the energy to hold a book and listen to podcasts or anything like that. So there was a lot of just laying there, staring at the ceiling or looking at the patterns of light coming through the window with my feelings of worth as a human being shriveling day after day after day until I had to surrender. And all of a sudden, it was like. Not that I consciously did that, because even when I started meditating as part of my burnout recovery, I was gonna be the best meditator, Jenny. Like, I bought all the apps and I bought the Lotus candle. Of course I did.

Yes.

But there came a time where I think it sort of broke down, that striver part. And when I got really quiet and realized that I didn't actually fall into an abyss of nothingness, that space didn't have to be terrifying and meant that I was kind of cartwheeling through it with my mouth open, like, not knowing where I was gonna land. That space and spaciousness could actually be delicious. And it's also the birthplace of possibility and a place where you can hear yourself think and you can hear your own heartbeat and realize that you are also here, A body in time and space, in this moment. You know, my judgy Janet was like, oh, now we're getting all philosophical. Interesting. Right, right. Like, get on. Don't you have things to do? So it was this constant, slightly amusing tug of war between the spaciousness wanting to take up more of my life and it was an invitation. There was a softness there. There wasn't an insistence the way that there was with Judgy Janet and the Come on, let's roll. I think for a while I was in the play between these two worlds, and it wasn't something I chose at all. I went in kicking and screaming. But eventually I realized, like, oh, it's actually quite nice to be in this spaciousness and to start to connect with the sound of my own beating heart and to, you know, put my hand on my belly in a meditation and not be critical that it was a little plumper than I would have liked it to be or, like, just to be grateful to be here and to think of the marvel of my body and how it was trying to heal and all the things it had done for me. And I actually became quite emotional many times just thinking about how my heart does all the things. You know, it's the place that's allowed me to fall in love and allowed me to start my business. And it's allowed me to look at my little puppy and my newborn children and to look into the eyes of my husband and all of these wonderful things. And it beats every day without taking a break. I never actually stopped to slow down and say, hey, thank you. So it's been a real exploration of what it means to be in a body that has so much wisdom to offer me and my business and my life as well.

It is such a miracle that is easy to take for granted. It's just amazing talking to you because I also had a complete paradigm shifting moment when I had the exact same thought. My heart is beating. It can never break. Short of dying, of course. But I didn't need to be so afraid in the world. My heart is beating. It's whole. It's a miracle. It loves me, you know what I mean? Like my heart, my lungs, they're working so hard every day and it really is a miracle.

We'll be right back just after this.

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You asked me the question, what do I do when one of my board members pipes up? You have judgy Janet, do you have a personality? Have you named one part of yourself that is like the comparing one who, even though you have your podcast, even though you've done this work, still pipes up and says, look over there. Look at what so and so is doing, or look at how their life is set up. I don't know if you've named that voice, but what do you do when that continues to come up? Because none of us are perfect? You know, I don't know that any of this ever goes away completely.

I haven't named that one, but it definitely has a feeling. And that one, it's this feeling that it's so tight. It means that I need to go faster and I need to push harder. So this is definitely related to the heartaholic part of me. That means we need to stay up longer, we need to have more caffeine. We need to, like, jack up our nervous system to prepare us for any possible scenario. It has almost like a ninja quality to it.

Interesting.

Yeah, it's like, be prepared for anything and keep moving. That's all we need to do is keep moving.

Like, if you keep moving, you can keep up.

Yes, yes, exactly.

Wow, that's so interesting. What can we call it? Like, the kinetic. The keep moving ninja.

Yeah, the kinetic ninja. I like that one too.

Yeah.

And there's an urgency. There's an urgency that, you know, everything must be dropped, and we must keep the eyes on the ball. It's really about survival, that to win means to breathe. There's no. Failure is not an option. There's an urgency to it, which I know is usually my cue to slow down and to do a meditation and to drink a herbal tea or to take my dog for a walk. Those beautiful recalibrations of getting out in nature or laying down, putting your legs up the wall. And those simple, simple recalibrating tools that I know when I'm going into ninja mode, then something needs to happen in that moment.

Yeah. There's one that I don't know how to put into words, but I find it's more particular to midlife. I didn't have this when I was younger, so I'm really curious to get your take. And I know for sure I'm going to fumble it as I try to explain it to you where I'm not comparing apples to oranges. So, for example, now in my midlife, like I mentioned, I have more of a family, I don't have kids, but these are the apples and the career accomplishments are the oranges. And you know, we can't do everything all at once. So I have naturally taken more of my oranges and turned them into apples or something. Who knows? Or I went and picked apples instead of only picking from the orange tree where I was hanging out earlier on when I was my solo single self. And it's interesting because having been so career oriented and I love my work, I truly love what I do and work gives me great purpose and joy. But I find it challenging in midlife not to sort of like look over on anyone else's career paper, like, what are they up to? And yet all the research shows, oh, it's meaningful relationships. This is what we're gonna. From our deathbed. It's gonna be the relationships and the friendships and the time with your dog. But in the moment you're like, oh, while I'm over here like soaking up all my relationships, what's happening over there? Everyone else is like running some great race career wise. And I don't know, I have this tension in me around this that's as good as I can get in terms of explaining it. And I'm wondering if you ever have that too. And maybe it is some of these somatic practices that you come back to or if there are reminders or mantras that you give yourself in these moments.

I wonder if this is kind of like being on a skateboard between those two mountains. You know, you kind of go up a little bit. Oh, second mountain. And then you're going to slide back down, just back and forth, back and forth.

And then you crash and burn on one and then go rest on the other one.

Yeah, I don't think it's such a clear cut thing. I mean, I think even the two mountains image is probably not exactly what it ideally looks like, but it definitely starts to create a. You have a visual of that, but. Oh, absolutely. Because it's not as if you can take that driver of thinking about what success feels like when you're in your first mountain phase. Status, accolades, hustling, all of that, like proving energy. It feels good and it's not bad or wrong until it becomes maladaptive. Right? So I think all of a sudden to think one day you're going to wake up and you're just going to be happy staring out the window with a cup of tea and patting your dog. It's nice as well.

Yes.

But I think it's navigating between those two things and also understanding. I don't know how you feel about this, but I realize how dopam driven I have been for such a long time of constantly being dazzled by the mirage shimmering on the horizon of the next thing for sure will fill the void inside of me. And none of that is even conscious. I never had that conversation with myself because that would have sounded like super sad and pathetic. Say, when I get that next bonus, it's going to fill the void inside, but it's just this compulsion to continue to be dazzled by the mirage shimmering on the horizon. And I call this phenomenon nexting. The next kitchen renovation, the next holiday, the next five pounds that I lose, you know, the next six figure client that I have, for sure that's going to make me feel enough. And this is really when we're driven by dopamine, which is less about what we have in the here and now. And dopamine is all about what's coming, the thing that we can anticipate feeling good about. And I don't know about you, Jenny, but often when you get to those things, when you achieve the mirage shimmering on the horizon, it feels a bit meh or it doesn't feel as good as you thought it was going to feel. So there's this disappointment. So therefore it's like, oh, it mustn't have been this. It's the next thing. And to stay on that gerbil wheel of constantly thinking that the next thing is going to be the thing. There's nothing wrong with striving, but eventually, I don't know, maybe it took a while. Like sometimes smart people are a bit duh. But it took me a while to figure out that there's a pattern here of achieving the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And the result always feels the same. You can be at this event that you've been looking forward to for months. While you're at the event, enjoying the dinner and the champagne, you're anticipating the next thing, not even present where you are.

Right?

So I think there's this recalibration that for me is happening in middle age is realizing that, yes, okay, there's so much seductiveness around the nexting and the dopamine and the having something to look forward to, but on its own that can also feel slightly shallow and slightly disappointing because you kind of know that that won't be the thing. There'll always be another. It's like a hall of mirrors in the funhouse. You know, it keeps going and going and going.

I pictured when you were saying that. I picture Sonic the Hedgehog chasing those gold coins where it's like. But then there's the next and the next and the next and it's like indefinitely horizontal, you know, there's just always the next ring.

One of the things is like learning how to also appreciate those small ordinary things. Because I think in the mind of the overachiever, the mind of the person who is willing to contort themselves and push themselves relentlessly to go after the ting ting, ting gold coins that you mentioned, there's this fear of ordinariness and mediocrity and therefore there's this constant future focus. But of course you can only ever feel joy and contentment and love and all the feels in this moment. So it's also like learning to. This is what I'm a student of in my middle age years is learning how to enjoy those things that maybe aren't mirages shimmering on the horizon, but just reflecting and closing your eyes for a moment. You know, whether that's having that hot cup of tea that you kind of clasp in your hands and kind of hold up to your sternum and stare out the window and look at the spring flowers and you think this is kind of nice. And that may not compare to buying a shiny new car or getting a new title at work, but I really think that the portal to joy is in the here and now. And this is one thing I'm reminding myself of on a much more regular basis.

That's so beautifully put, all of it. And I always used to have future self visions during coaching sessions or coach training of myself holding a cup of tea, looking out the window in a light filled room. So there is something about that. And you know, one of my anecdotes. Anecdotes. Maybe it's both an antidote around this. Michael and I sometimes joke that we'd rather surprise people. Like we'd rather be low key and not have any of the shiny things. And then people don't know what to expect. Then you can come out of nowhere and surprise them, you know, like in a conversation. But that you don't have to signal so much from Those external shiny things, because, yeah, those are never ending. And you'll never have enough money to keep up with those Joneses. Or at least I don't. I won't.

And also, it's like, do you really want to. When you start to see that it's a hall of mirrors, that it's an exhausting process, and to feel, how much of my life have I been in the hall of mirrors chasing gold coins as a hedgehog? And how nice would it actually be to sit in my sun lounger and read this book? Not because it's gonna make me more productive or teach me productivity hacks or I'm not resting so that therefore I can become more productive, but just reminding myself that it's safe and it's actually okay to be here now in this moment.

So beautifully said. Thank you so much, Mandy. I just love chatting with you. I love listening to your show. If you could leave listeners with one experiment related to all this that they could try in the next week, what would it be?

Let's go back to what we were talking about with the inner critic is name your inner critic, or pick one that turns up that hugs the mic in your head and name it. And I would give it some kind of sort of slightly provocative name. Whatever feels good for you, that you're not going to take it too seriously. And then I would also name your inner champion, because we all have one. We all have that voice that's rooting for us, that is there with us, that's always riding sidecar with us, but that's just not as vocal and in your face as whatever your version of judgy Janet is. And for me, that self is a feeling that I know. She's older than me and she's really wise and she's super rad, and she just knows the right thing to say. And she's usually telling me to slow down. So I haven't got a name for her yet, but she's a feeling. So I would know who's running the show in your head and realize that you're also at choice who to listen.

To and how powerful. In all these years, I've never thought to name the inner champion. And maybe we have more than one. Maybe we have a whole board of champion directors sitting up there. I have done exercises where you picture your counsel, whether it's people you've met in your real life or not, but like drawing upon authors or people who inspire you and imagining them all meeting on your behalf and giving you advice and input. But I also love the idea of naming our and owning our inner champion, the voice that each of us has or the committee rooting for us. That's brilliant. I'm taking that as homework too.

Thank you so much Mandy. This has been such a joy. Where can people find you if they want to keep in touch?

Jenny thank you for having me. I would love to get into their headphones over at Enough the Podcast, which is both on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. So if you like this, there's more of this on my show. Thank you so much for having me. I love this.

Amazing. What a delight. And as always, I'll put all these links in the show notes. Thank you for listening everybody. Have a beautiful rest of your day.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com.

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Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.