347: Claim Your Bragging Rights—From Hidden Gems to Halo Effects with Lisa Bragg

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It's really about the people that you want to connect with your work and I think that's really important to guard your energy and not waste your time as you go through this work to Self promotion and Bragging what's next?

This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For sure. Show notes from this episode. Visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Welcome back, Pivoters. I am so excited to be here today with Lisa Bragg. You can imagine with a last name like that, she has had to master the art and science of self promotion and now I'm delighted to be talking about her book Bragging rights How to talk about your work using purposeful self promotion. It launched in May of 2023 and Lisa and I had the great pleasure of meeting in person at the TED Conference one month just prior to our book launch and bumping into each other throughout the week. Lots of serendipity popcorn. So I'm just delighted to have you here. Welcome Lisa.

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. I am a fan girl, you know that. So thank you.

That means so much. Well, there's so much to discuss. One of them is your background in broadcasting, and I feel like that must have been a little bit of a tricky Pivot because as much as you're putting yourself out there in front of the public, it's not as much about your own ideas so much as it is reporting the news or reporting other people's stories. So I'm just curious to hear your relationship with bragging from that former career to even what you're doing now.

Oh, I still find it hard.

In what ways?

In broadcasting, it's all about the people you're interviewing. It's about the story, it's about the audience needs. And so now when I put myself out there, it's a little bit different. Yes, it's still about the audience needs. It's about the story and the context that I'm talking in. But these are my stories now and not just the people I'm serving. So it's different that way. Where I still love putting the microphone to you or to someone else and say, tell me your story. Where now it's like, well, now I have to tell my story and stand out from get in front of the camera all the time and talk about what I think is important in the world where broadcast news back in my day, it was never about what I thought it was really about, what the story was about.

I find the same with coaching. So we were talking before we hit record that I did one on one coaching for about 10 years, both inside of a company and outside. And coaching is all about deep listening and follow up questions and a few bits of advice, but not much. And so it was actually hard for me as well to develop a relationship to putting myself out there front and center. Especially when in those relationships you're kind of terrain to fade away. Even in an interview, you know, even just podcasting or what you did in broadcasting, it's like, how do you let the other person shine? The spotlight is not meant to be on me as a person.

You know, it's totally that way. And that's why it's like how do I keep showing up and not be what I think? My natural inclination is to be a hidden gem. So I have to make sure that I am showing up. And I would identify as an ambivert. I'm an extrovert when I need to be and I'm an introvert when I need to be. But I'm an ambivert. I do like to be with people and I do like to be by myself and I get energy from both places. But being a hidden gem so often I have to remind myself to get out there and to be seen and be heard and that if I'm not being seen and heard, then I realize that it's a disservice to the people who really need to hear from me. I have to remember to be out there and to share my stories because people do want to hear them and I have to remind myself that they're really valuable.

That sounds like a phrase in there that you've thought about before. Hidden gem. Is that a term in your body of work around people who see themselves as that Tell us more about being a hidden gem.

Yeah, it's something that I realized is that so many people are so valuable, but we're working in the background. We're not seen and heard. And I believe it's fundamental to humans to be seen and heard and to be out there in whatever format and whatever audience you need, an audience of one or an audience of millions, but it's fundamental to humans to be seen and heard. But I find that so many of us, we're hidden gems. We've been told, put your head down, do good work, and eventually someone will notice you, or keep working in the background or be so great that they can't ignore you. So we do all these things behind the scenes, hoping that someone else will say, okay, welcome, Jenny, you can go on stage now, it's your turn. And we're waiting, and we're waiting and it never happens. And so we're hidden gems and we're the ones that are doing a lot of the work in the background making other people look good. But we need to also make sure that we're being seen and heard so that our futures are intact and that we're continuing to self advocate because I think so many of us, in my research, I found we do abdicate and we think that someone else is going to bring us along where really we have to have it on ourselves and not always be that hidden gem waiting for someone else to pluck us out and pluck us out of obscurity and bring us forward.

You highlighted a couple of the myths in that response that are in your book too. Such as your work speaks for itself. Cream rises to the top. If you wait for it, you'll be chosen, and we all know the one. If you build it, they will come. I can't lie. I still do have a certain sense of that. Like, there is a part of me that I feel if my work is truly good enough, someone will tell a friend. Like, if they read a book, they'll put it down and they'll tell a friend. If they listen to a podcast episode and it's good enough, they will send it to a friend that I won't need to ask. That's kind of my benchmark for quality. However, I see what you're saying in the sense that you have to get the momentum snowball started. And so is there a point in the bragging, which, by the way, I love how you define it as helping people shimmer with pride. It doesn't have to just be obnoxious, gloating. Is there a point along the spectrum where, yes, you have to give yourself more of a push in the beginning, and then you can let your foot off the gas as you get that momentum. Or do you see a steady stream bragging practice necessary?

It's a practice. You need to come back to it. For most of us, you'll need to come back to it again and again and again and remind yourself to not be that hidden gem. Eventually, though, what you do want is that people know you enough, that they do refer you and that they do tell a friend and that they're your brand ambassadors. So that's what you do want, that they're talking about you, they're passing on the podcast, they're helping sell your books. That's what you do want. But you have to give them something to start with. And so many of us think that, okay, well, I wrote a book and now the people will find me on my tiny piece of the Internet. There's so much content being put out there all the time that you want to make sure that you are continuing to be the beacon, not part of the noise, but be the beacon out there letting people know how you are here to serve. So yes, you do want everyone to amplify you, but you need to help them and tell them what to say about you. And that's what a lot of people don't even say. Here's what I want. We think that people are mind readers and they're going to read my mind, that I want this book to do this or I want this to happen. I want to be doing more keynotes and workshops. No, I have to invite them to want to. I have to be invitable. So I have to let them know how I'm here to serve. And so I think that's a critical piece. But yes, once you get your flywheel going and people can share your book and share your podcast, that's a beautiful thing. But we have to continually be present and let people know how we are here to serve.

On that note, one of the more awkward questions that I find, and it's quite common, is in, let's say a networking interaction or a catch up call. Even somebody says kind of to close out the call, how can I be most helpful to you? And I totally understand and appreciate the spirit behind that. I always find it awkward. I'm just wondering if you find that awkward too. First of all, I feel awkward to actually say something. I mean, I often say something very easy like, well, if you think of anyone who could benefit from free time, I'd love for you to pass the word along or, you know, just keep me on your radar. I offer something low key I don't legitimately say, now that you ask. I'd love if you could draft an email to your 100,000 followers and send it out on Tuesday because I have a big launch coming up. I just get uncomfortable with this question and I find it vague. And I don't know if it's one of these polite things like pretending to get out your wallet at dinner, where it's like, let me just offer. And I don't actually want you to give me homework from this phone call. What's your take on this question?

I'm exactly the same. I'm always floored when I get it. It's like, oh, and I do feel that awkwardness too. It's like, oh, and I feel like we should prepare something. So from this takeaway right now, we need to all prepare something. But I think what I would say right away is, what would it take to get on your list to be seen in your newsletter in front of all your followers because you are so great. So give them that compliment because you're already in a call from them. It's not a throwaway compliment, but what would it take to get on your list? So then you're putting it back to them to make it a consideration. So I'd use that magic question that's out there, what would it take? And then see what they say from that. But we should have those asks ready to go because people are offering. And so that's where it's like, what is my solid thing that I need right now? So if you could refer my book to someone or refer me to a workshop keynote, like having that one or two things that you could ask them, ideally relevant to the conversation, though. But we need to have those things when people give us the opportunity to actually hold it and honor them because they're offering.

So.

And if it doesn't go anywhere, I think that's something for us to see. Check back in a year. Did those conversations ever go anywhere or was it just lip service?

What about a tit for tat situation? I've had this come up before, too. So you're now my bragging rights therapist, where it's someone I don't know very well, we're connecting for the first time. They ask inevitably, what can I do to help you? As we're getting ready to close out, and again, I don't really know this person. And then my fear sets in that if I actually say something or I don't, I say I'm good. You know, just spread the word if you fear anyone related. Okay, great. And then I feel obligated to go, and how can I be most helpful for you? And then they're going to say, well, now that you mention it, and they have some big request of me that actually, in my heart of hearts, I probably would not have asked them this question because I'm not ready to help them yet. I don't know this person. But now I feel I need to reciprocate the question. So has the flip side of this ever happened to you?

Yeah, absolutely, it's happened. And going from awkward to dread is what I feel from that. We are so used to being the givers, though, so we have to make sure we do ask from people. So give, give, give, take. We do have to remember to take from people when they ask. And when you're put in that position, though, you can say, that sounds really interesting and hold space for it, but then defer it. You know, you can always go back and have an email saying, you know, thanks for the opportunity, but I'm not able to do it at this time. Like, I know that sounds really awkward and it's been all really nice, and it does feel that, gosh, I'm going to now go into the shame spiral because I didn't show up when they asked me to do something. But we have to have boundaries, and that's where so many of us have to remember what are our boundaries when somebody's asking something of us. So it's setting up, saying, that's just beyond my reach right now and saying no. And it's hard, and I have the hardest time with saying no. But we have to say what our limits are because you have your priorities that you need to fulfill. But if you let too many other people's priorities get in, you're never going to get ahead to the success that you want to have. So I think it's really making sure that you have your boundaries.

That's an interesting thing to try to gracefully say no or buy time in the moment, because that's when I get most flustered. Like, I just have all my social mores and considerations.

Absolutely. Yeah. And so what I would do anything that you have that really trips you up, have a script. So back in broadcasting, I used to have to call these people, all these different people. It could be the head of a country. I'm in Canada. So it could be the prime minister's office, it could be a politician, it could be the police talking about something that just happened. And Sometimes I wouldn't know exactly what I was going to say. So I would write myself a little script and I would have my little notes. So if I was calling a police station to check in on something, I would have right away my three little bullet points that I wanted to make sure that I covered. And so have those little things right beside your computer screen or on your desktop. That is a folder of what are my asks and what can I say no to? What are my boundaries? Just even have a point saying say no and allow yourself what is my script When I say no? So what is my script? What is my ask? So have those things that are your script right there ready to go so you have those lines prepared. Because it is hard in the moment to remember. And that's why in broadcast journalism, we would have our scripts and we would memorize things sometimes and we would know it so well that we would then throw away the script and just be able to talk more extemporaneously right off the cuff about whatever it was. But we already had it really deep inside of ourselves to know what we were going to say. And so I think that if you had some scripts ready to go, that could cushion that shame, awkwardness and all the things that we do feel when we're put on the spot about something. So have those things that you're already predicting because you've already had it happen. What are those things that I need to make sure that I have ready to go as a cheat sheet or a script so I don't get caught up again?

We'll be right back just after this.

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Many years ago I interviewed an author, David Zweig. He wrote a book called the Invisibles and I'll link to that in the show notes because it's ancient in terms of the Pivot podcast archives. And his whole book was featuring people who are essentially invisible. Like the audio engineer at a Cyndi Lauper concert, of whom I happen to know a person who did that.

Awesome.

Yeah. Or just could be anybody. The chef at the White House. I mean maybe they do end up making a name for themselves. But long story short, there are people in professions whom they don't wanna be out in front. And there's even the phrase, you know, power behind the throne. I've had people in a way I prefer for my right hand person. Whoever it is, at any given time, they're not trying to launch their own business as a thought leader, it has a shelf life. If that's the case that you kind of need sometimes parts of the business or people to be out in front and then other people who say I don't actually want that, I'm super happy behind the scenes optimizing things. So for the people who don't mind not blasting themselves out into the world, what would you say? What piece of this is still important? Like these are people for whom they genuinely want to be recognized for the quality of their work.

First and foremost, Cyndi Lauper Engineer still needs to be known in the industry. So they might not be known in a greater wider audience, but to their important audience they're known. Otherwise they're still downstairs in their parents basement playing on stereo. Right. So they need to be known to the audience that they care about. That's why context really matters. And you can have your primary audience can really just be one person. It could be Cyndi Lauper, but you need to be known in your industry. And so that's where I challenge that thinking where you know what, they might not be known on the Beyonce level scale, but they're known in their industry and probably featured in those industry magazines or in the Grapevine that people know who's who. So I think that that sounds like it's thinking on a worldwide scale instead of thinking well no, I can have an audience of one and really make that important. So I think that's why this work is so important. No matter if want to just reach one person or reach the world, you need to be able to talk about yourself and to self advocate. Otherwise people won't know why you're here or what you're here to do. It's being of service to other people. So that's really interesting. But it's that we so often don't tell people what we're supposed to do. We want them again to read our minds, but we need to be out there letting them know and then they'll know how to use us. I think this work is also really important because we want to do more work in the future and if they don't know that you're the person, then they're not going to be able to bring you along. I think I found his work when I was doing my research for the book because I did a lot of research and investigation and thinking about all the different challenge points of why people need to brag. And so bragging is to talk about your work with pride. And pride also means self love. So why do we need to do that? Well, we need to let people know how we are here to serve and then we can go forward. I feel like I'm just rambling on the same phrases today, but it seems like that's where I am with it.

I love all the different angles. And I will say that I am someone who definitely, maybe it's a crutch. It's kind of a bragging comfort crutch of quality. And I don't even care about the moniker best selling author. I like award winning author or award winning podcast. And yet you gotta submit for those awards. So you're right that even the audio engineer for Cyndi Lauper, they want to be known among their peers in the industry and even all these people who have won awards and prizes in their industry for the quality of their work with free time. I paid almost a thousand dollars to submit for two Webby Awards. Like it was the most expensive award, but it's very prestigious and it did end up getting nominated, which is like among 14% of submissions.

Bravo.

And I'm so proud of it. But that costs money. You know, that was money that was time to apply. It took me raising my hand and it does take courage to even say, is my show worth $1,000 to even submit myself for an award that I don't know if I'll win. And then even the free Time book has won six awards, but we pay for every single one. The publisher submitted a bunch that I didn't even know about, but you pay for them. Like someone has to think to do that and you pay for them and then if you get them, that's wonderful. But even those awards are not just automatically falling from the sky.

And that's what so many people think. They think they are. They think, oh, wow, aren't they special? And that's why you being honest and saying that, like, no, I paid for them. That allows someone else to say, oh, I should do that too, and how do I win? Because we think that someone else is going to do it for us, and that's the mistake. And so when we shine a light on what we're doing and how we're doing it, we're showing the moments and not just the milestones. The milestones would have been you winning or placing highly. We are showing the moments that, hey, I'm going to put myself forward for this. This is really important to me. I want the world to know that I am doing good work so then more people can find me. And so it's really, do I want to be invisible or do I want to stay employed? Do I want to get a new position? Do I want to find people who will help me solve impossible challenges? That's where we need to build social currency. We need to be able to talk about ourselves. We need to brag about ourselves and the good work we're doing, and we need to then promote the good work that we have out there. So good for you for going for it. And everyone find something that you want to win and nominate yourself. Because secret's out, people are doing it. They're nominating themselves, so you should too.

I have two more bragging stories on this. First of all, the awards business is huge business for these companies. You pay to submit for every single award. Then in the nomination stage, if you make it that far, then they want you to get like, oh, there's a people's choice vote. What does that mean? Blast. They want to collect email addresses from everybody who votes for you. Then whether you're nominated or you win an award, now you can buy your awards. So for one of the podcast awards, I bought two statuettes just to have them physically in my home so I could look at them and remind myself to keep going. And I paid a couple hundred dollars each for these statuettes. This was in the boom times of 2021.

So the point is, these companies are making huge money. It's good business for them running a gazillion different awards. And so the good news there is that there's a gazillion different awards to submit for and they want to make money off of you. So you might get a nice certificate or A nod or essentially the participation trophy. But people don't even necessarily know that that's what it is in some cases. Not all. Definitely not all. But the second thing I wanted to tell you, Lisa, is that I submitted for the Webby, and again, only 14% make it to the nomination stage. And so I did. And my husband Michael, I told him, and I would have just stopped right there. I would have just been, I'm nominated. Great. That's enough of a win for me. There's no way I'm going to win given these behemoth shows in the category that I'm in. And Michael said, this is a big deal. You need to put out a press release. You need to make a big deal out of this. You need to ask for votes. This is a campaign. He used to run a brand strategy company. And the point he was making is that it doesn't matter anymore if you win. You're conveying something by saying you're nominated and asking people to vote. Like, this is important. This lets people know that your show is worth listening to, et cetera, et cetera. The shift he helped me see was that at that point, it was no longer about winning. It was about the bragging, which I would not have done without his encouragement because I hate asking for votes and I hate that kind of stuff. But he convinced me that I needed to make it known I couldn't just stay as the hidden gem in hiding. So I want to tell you that that's kudos to Michael on that one.

Those are great stories. You know, when I had my content company really going, and we had all these employees, they were like, let's go for these awards. And I was the same way. I was like, why? You know, it's pay to play. Like, what's it all about? But it was really important to them to see that they're part of a winning organization and that we were winners together and that I, as the leader also, not just internally, said, good job, but we said, hey, we're a force to be reckoned with. Look at us. We're winning awards. It also, because we were winning, we attracted more right fit players to us. And so it's the halo effect of saying, hey, we can win and we're doing great things or at least be nominated, and we're doing great things because this is the company we keep. And so then more people are attracted because we are doing great work. So I got over that, too, where it's like, okay, I have these awards now. I do need to pull them out because they are points of celebration and points of conversation that you can then have to say, well, here's what else I can do and here's how we can partner. So I think that's really important for all of us. But we do need to say, you know what, we need to show those things and let other people talk about them for us too. But it's so funny. We're so quick to dismiss it. Okay, I got that. I'm done. I'm moving on. But we forget that these are important places to be and milestones to share with other people. So kudos for your husband to put it out there for you.

Well, like you said, it's motivating for the team as well. It really is. It does the team a disservice. In your book, you share a very helpful seven point bragging strategy of seven questions to ask ourselves to set our own bragging strategy. Could you share what those are off.

The top of my head?

Or I can share them and you can pick the one you think is most important.

Yeah, you know what? Well, I think there's some really good ones in there and why I think they're so good is that it gives us a place to start and say, okay, I can move towards these things. It starts with, how are you? Because so many of us bragging is taboo culturally. It's not something we're comfortable with. And I'm in Canada, so I thought it was a Canadian thing. And then I found out it's a Midwest. And then I found it was in New York and then I found it was everywhere. And Japan and UK and Australia. My international research found it was. All of us have this cultural taboo about talking about our successes. A lot of it comes from the social norms of the factory era and now we're in the imagination era and so we have these constraints on ourselves. So it really starts with, how are you? Are you suffering from imposter experience? Or the tallest poppy? Things like that. So how are you, as you start this journey to say, I'm going to start talking about my successes and promote myself, because you need to start having steps where you feel courage and then eventually we'll feel a little bit more confident, but it's about courage to start taking those steps. So that's one of my favorite ones is how are you? Give me another one. Which one do you want to talk about?

Well, they're all so good. And by the way, it's officially bragging rights strategy. I said it wrong the first time. I'll read them all. And then I'm curious to know which one do you think people this most opportunity to improve. How are you? Who are you? Who do you serve? What do you know? Who do you know, who knows you and what's next?

So I think one of the really important ones is what's next? And that was last on your list and why it's important is I always tell people to market to where you want to go. We think that our reputations are so important, the end all be all and we don't want to do anything that wrecks our reputation because this isn't really where it looks like I should have gone from wherever I was before. This doesn't look like the right next step. So we worry about our reputation so much that we don't think about our future selves. And so what's next is really thinking about where do I want to go and why do I want to go there. And then it's so funny how you'll see eventually the red thread of your life come together when you do some self reflection. But what's next? Where do you want the future Jenny to be? Where do you want to go next? And then start marketing yourself to that person and it will all start to align as you do that and people will help connect the dots. So I think that's a really important one is what's next. And thinking about one of the challenges I have in the book to do because there's some exercises is really what is your legacy? What do you want people and this is outrageous but if you live to 130 years old, so there's no excuses of time, if you lived to the ripe old age of 130 and you had your nieces and nephews and children or great grandchildren all around you or just friends and family, what would you say to them about your life and what are the things that you've done? And so putting that in that kind of like I've done it all kind of context and then you can start to plan backwards and know where you want to go. And that will help inform why you want to talk about what you're in service of. And then it'll help you then say here's the self promotion I need to do. The tactics, the video, the emails, the newsletter, whatever it is, or word of mouth. Here are the things that I need to do through self promotion. So think about what's next too. You're starting to let people know how they can help you. So you know, we were having the conversation people do want to help us, but we need to let them know how they can help us. And so if you start to tell them this is where I'm going next, this is what I want to do, then they'll help you get to your goals faster. So I think that's really one of the most critical ones is what's next.

That's so true. And as it relates to pivoting, we're always evolving and becoming and sometimes it's happening continually behind the scenes in a really organic way. And I talk about that in the book. And then other times we're hitting a more dramatic pivot point. And you talk about pivot points too in your book, where we're going in a new direction. And the kind of the message I've had to do that many times where the message I'm sending is, hey, I'm going this way now, I invite you to come along for the ride. But there is some explaining to do and I find that a lot of people are happy to go on that journey. They're excited to go on that journey. It gives them permission to go in a new direction. I just can't stay in the same place, being the same person, talking about the same things. That's just not my personality type. And so you're right that, that what's next piece can be nerve wracking. But it's how you build into the new direction with and surrounded by other people.

And Jenny, I'm gonna say celebrate you for that because we're in a new era where before, you know, our parents, our grandparents, they would have had the same job for 20, 35 years or same career and same messages. And so they wouldn't have had to pivot and transmit these new messages. And so we're in this new era where we do have to say, this is what I'm thinking now and it's evolved and this is where I'm going now. Because we're part of the knowledge economy, so we have to allow our thinking to change and bring people on that journey with us. And I think it's really important to say, we're all new at this and let's go and keep doing it. So allowing people to come along on the journey and giving them permission to also say, you know what, that was great. That was Lisa of 2020. But now what is Lisa now with being an author and the next steps? Lisa, it's how are we evolving and our thinking evolve? So allowing that to change and signaling to people that it's important to allow ourselves, to change and to realize that we're all learning on this journey, you know, and we're humans having a human experience. So making sure that we're allowing ourselves not to be perfect, which I've demonstrated on this podcast. I think it's really an important thing that we're all evolving and that we are there to support each other as we go. Some of the stuff sounds oh, Pollyannaesque cheering each other on, but we really do need to come together and cheer each other on as much as we can and support each other and scaffold each other as we go along.

We'll be right back just after this.

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I'll just have one more cheese at Cracker and then I'll get back to it.

There's one more thing I wanted to ask you about this line in your book. By trying to appeal to everyone, you appeal to no one. Instead of broadcasting, think of narrowcasting. And I thought that was so well said. I would love for you to explain what you mean by narrowcasting as it relates to bragging rights and our bragging rights strategy.

Yeah, you know what? So many of us want to be out there and right there so everyone in the whole wide world knows us. But it's really that we need to find those people that really want to resonate with us. Instead of talking to everyone, we talk to those few people that we know already like our message. And we spend so much time that one of the sayings is one third of the people like you, one third of the people.

Meh.

They don't really care. And then one third of people won't like you. But then we spend so much time on trying to get those people who don't like us that we waste our efforts and energy. While we think about narrow casting is really just think about those one or two people that really need to hear your message, hone in on them and what they need from you. Instead of thinking about broadcasting to the world and no one hearing you, it goes back to being that beacon. So if you're a beacon, really just sending that direct signal instead of being part of the noise and trying to attract everyone, I think that's the critical piece and that's where maybe you are still just trying to go back to our Cyndi Lauper music engineer. He would probably be narrow casting to a very small audience of people who really critically matter to him. Instead of trying to be up on stage with Cyndi Lauper trying to take over the stage. It's narrow casting. Who do I really need to talk to? It's also less exhausting when you get out there and try to self promote. You're not trying to get the people from high school to like you and to appreciate your work. They're part of your past, they're lovely. But that's done. You need to really think of the audience that you want for the future. And I also guide people to think about what is your primary audience, your secondary audience and your tertiary audiences, what are those audiences and what do they need from you. And really just focus on that first audience of those people who really resonate with your message and that you really want to help in this world.

I found that very helpful too, of almost thinking in advance, it's okay if this type of person doesn't like me, or it's okay if this type of reader is appalled by what I'm writing or sharing, or I have to almost decide who it's not for to just give myself permission to keep going because I know who it is for. But I have to remind myself, wait, I'm not trying to get the approval of every single segment of, let's say business owner population. And there was somewhere I read once that a good sales page, which I call an invitation letter, should disgust someone.

I always wonder like, okay, who am I disgusting right now with my frou frou heart based business language? You know, whatever it is that they're gonna just roll their eyes at, it's good. It means I'm attracting the right people and repelling the wrong ones.

Oh, repelling is so good. Because that's where narrow casting is really important. We don't want to have those people that are really cringy clients that are coming to us and that we're just not going to be able to serve. It's not going to do us anything and it's not going to do something for them. Back when I had my content company, I'd say, oh, we can work with anyone at any budget. Oh my goodness, no we can't. And so those are lessons that I won and really hard fought lessons to realize that we can't be for everyone. It's just too much energy out when we're trying to be there for everyone. And so that's where having that crisp message that repels people is beautiful. And some of that, your parents, your family, I know your dad loves what you're doing, but some of your family members might not appreciate what you're doing. They're not part of the audience for this work that you're doing. And I have an example in the book about someone, her parents, whenever she'd go on camera and talk about her work, they would say, oh, negative feedback. Well, that doesn't really help any of it. So it's really about the people that you want to connect with your work. And I think that's really important to guard your energy and not waste your time as you go through this work to self promotion and bragging.

One of the journal prompts in the book is when do youo Wish you had Been Bolder? So as we start to close out, I would love to ask, since the book has launched, let's say in terms of promoting the book, is there a moment of this year where you wish you had been bolder?

Oh my goodness, I'm in that stage now where you have to ask for reviews and ask people for them because people don't think the review matters. And you know how often we don't like or engage with a post. So I have to ask people, will you review my book? Will you give it an Amazon ranking? And most podcast shows it's like, please give a five star review so more people can hear it. And for books we have to ask too, because people just don't think that their review counts and matters and it desperately does. So I'm being bold by saying, will you please review my book and give it a rating? And so that's something different for me. I'm used to asking for sales and I'm used to asking for different things. But again, I feel like this is more I have to watch because I feel like it's more about now you're rating me. But they're not. They're rating a product. And the podcast is a product that you have. But I encourage people to have grace when people are asking them for a review or a testimonial. And get out there. Have grace for the person who's asking, but have grace for yourself as you're asking. So I'm in that boulder I have to be bold and ask for. Please give me a five star review on the book and let me know your thoughts on Amazon. Because it's all about the algorithms and all these things that aren't even part of the book to help more people to see it and to get it into more hands. It's really a critical thing. So I think that's my bolder thing right now, which I have to admit it's one of those things that's a practice that I have to come back to and say, no, I can't be a hidden gem. This book cannot hide in the Amazon or any of the bookstore, Barnes and Noble shelves. It can't hide there waiting for someone to pick it up and become dusty. No. It needs to be in the hands of the people it will help. And so I need to help usher it into the world. And those reviews are part of it. So that's what I'm up to right now. I know you can relate on that one.

Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. I feel like just as they say, willpower is a limited resource and you can have decision fatigue or willpower fatigue. I get bragging fatigue or bold request fatigue where I'll do a burst of it and then I just need a break. Cause it's way outside of my comfort zone and my natural way of being. So I can kind of fake it for the sake of a project for a couple months and then I take a break.

That's where I said at the beginning, I'm a hidden gem too. It's a practice we have to come back to. But a lot of it is because we've been trained that way and it's cultural. But if we're out there saying, here's how I'm of service, why should that be fatiguing? But it's a cultural thing that we think it is. By asking for something for the work that we're doing and wanting something to be successful, that self advocacy piece does become tiresome. It's tiring and it shouldn't be. And we need to start helping each other more and scaffolding each other to share more in the spotlight and make it eventually that it's not the spotlight. Talking about your success should be commonplace and telling people, hey, this is the great work I'm doing. You should come take a look and appreciate it and move forward with it. But it's so hard for us. And that's where I really thought this book was needed out in the world.

So if you could give people one experiment around bragging rights to try over the next week or two after they're done listening, what would it be?

You know what I'm going to say something that everyone is going to say or I've already heard that it's start your brag book but actually do it this time. So write those kudos that you didn't get in your brag book and those compliments that you want or if you have them in your emails, download them into note file and smile file your brag book, whatever you want to call it, but actually do that and go back to it every so often, especially when you feel a little lost on your way. And that will help make you move forward and say, hey, yes, I do need to let more people know how I'm of service. And so that would be one of the easiest things to start going forward with. And then I'd also say find a friend who needs some support. And I talk about in the book bragging and self promotion sounds so me, me, me, me, me. But really it's about here's how I'm here to serve, then let's partner and then let's change the world. That's what it's really about is how do we then let people know I'm of service. Then we can partner with each other. So find someone out there on social media that you know and comment on their posts and take part of their posts and repost them instead of reposting. And I love Brene Brown and Adam Grant, but we have enough of those. There's enough on repeat. Find a quote from Jenny or your friend or anyone else and quote them in your social posts and put it out there and that putting the spotlight on someone else, it will come back to you. So those are two things I would do right away is put the spotlight on a friend and share their good work out there and then also make sure you are doing your brag book and hashtag bragging rights and I'll find it and amplify your post for you. But again, this isn't a social media game though. It's much more beyond that because Social media can be exhausting for all of us, but there's so much more you can do behind the scenes, but not in the hidden gem state. That's the difference. Not being the hidden gem, but behind the scenes, all of us can still be going.

I love that. And I love the homework too. Shine a spotlight on a friend. We can all do that. Today there are people that will listen to an episode. I have friends who buy the book of someone they hear on a podcast as a way to say thank you for that conversation. Like they're very generous in that way. Or someone will say, I love that episode so I left you a review. Or you know, when I see them come in, it's so true. Like just shining the spotlight on someone else, even having a practice. I've heard of people who do, like send one nice note every day. They send one thank you email every day or text message.

Can I just jump in one more thing, Jenny though? Because I was a fan, I said at the beginning I'm a fan girl and I complimented on one of the podcasts you had. I can't remember what the episode was about. Then you complimented, you said my name back on your show and I was like, oh yay, that's so exciting. And so doing those small things by leaving your name on a review or commenting on someone's social post, people will see that and they'll see your name and then eventually you'll get into their mind and they'll start to think about you and maybe consider you for an opportunity. So these are small seed planting things that you're doing along the way. Maybe it's not intentional. Mine was not intentional to say, oh Jenny, bring me on your podcast. But it's a seed planting to say, hey, I'm in relationship with you and we're going to start building something together and then that's how things grow. We have to get into somebody's sunshine in some way. So starting with a genuine compliment and saying, hey, I appreciate you is one place to start on your self promotion journey. So thank you for having me on your show, but also thank you for mentioning my name a few weeks ago too.

Well, I love that you shared that story because we get five, sometimes 10 podcast pitches a day and keeper emails of someone genuinely listening and genuinely complimenting the content of the show. It's so much more rare. It's very refreshing. And Lisa, in your case, when someone does write a keeper, I call em a keeper. I like smilephile too. Write a keeper email about an episode and I see that they have a book or they have something going, I always check it out. Sometimes they're submitted anonymously or there's not much I can click on. But you didn't need to write and say I love your work and by the way, can I be on your show? You were just sending a genuine compliment and then I said, oh, she has this book. Oh that looks interesting. Oh I Jenny can put two and two together to say let me think about that for a future episode. In that way I think that you're right. The authentic connection is more powerful than assuming someone needs to hit me over the head with a podcast pitch in order for me to make a connection. If an episode might be a fit, it's like when there's a genuine overlap of the work, I just don't need to be told. So in that way, sometimes the over impersonal bragging does not work as well as shining a spotlight, building a little relationship and then letting it unfold from there.

Yeah, that's exactly. And it's long term relationships that's the thing. It's how do we be successful together and share the spotlight with each other and help build each other up. So thank you.

Amazing. Well, I'll put all the links to your work in the show, notes listeners. Of course, if it's not already on your radar, get a copy of Bragging rights how to talk about your work using purposeful self promotion. And Lisa, is there anywhere else you'd like to send people to learn more?

Well, come to my website LisaBrag.com, and it's brag with two GS and yes, my last name is Bragg. And then on social media I'm heavy on LinkedIn so you can find me there too. So thank you very much.

What a joy. Well, thank you so much Lisa and big thanks to everybody who's here listening.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching list, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter @jennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.

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