351: The Ultimate Guide to Great Mentorship with Scott Jeffrey Miller

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My intent is not always matched with my technique and what I intend to share isn't always received the same way. A little bit of self awareness goes a long way in preventing yourself to be the jerk. As a mentor, spouse, partner, leader, neighbor, roommate, parent, friend, committee member, son in law, you name it.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of the only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it.

Here we go.

Welcome back Pivoters. I am so excited to be here today with Scott Jeffrey Miller. He's a sought after speaker, a Wall Street Journal bestselling author and podcast host who is currently serving as Franklin Covey's senior advisor on Thought leadership. Prior to his advisory role there, Scott was a 25 year Franklin Covey associate serving as the Chief Marketing Officer and Executive Vice President.

He's the host of On Leadership with.

Scott Miller, a very popular leadership podcast and today we're talking about his latest book, the ultimate guide to great 13 roles to making a true impact. Scott, welcome to the show.

Chini, thank you for the spotlight and the platform today.

So you know, I have to start by asking what is the best advice that you have ever received from a mentor?

I spent 25 years working with the Franklin Covey Company, the world's most influential leadership development firm. And for about 24 years our CEO man named Bob Witman, who now is the Chairman of the board, he once said to me, thinking is a legitimate business activity. What he meant is sometimes you gotta close your door and put your feet up on your table and sit back and think what's going right? What's going wrong? Where should you be spending your time? Where should your focus be? And I think in today's sort of hyper connected world where we're all suffering from some onslaught of information and attention deficit. That thinking is in fact a legitimate business activity. So for a guy who has a sometimes irresponsible bias to action, I have to give myself permission to do nothing and think about what should I really be focused on.

There's a great business book called the Road Less Stupid by Keith Cunningham. My brother told me about and he's.

Very adamant about thinking time. Capital T. Capital T where he sets aside an hour every day to do nothing but think.

And the book is like chock full of thinking prompts to guide. So I'm so happy you shared that advice from Bob.

My oldest son, Thatcher likes to do nothing. He's not lazy, right? He's in school full time. He plays tennis semi professionally as a young teenager he goes to church, all kinds of things. But he likes to not over schedule himself. He likes to sometimes just sit at home for an hour and have a snack and sit outside in a chair and do nothing. And it kind of has inspired me. Jenny.

Well, Thatch, he's our inspiration today. We called him Thatchmo. He's the coolest kid.

He came in for tech support. So I was very lucky I got to meet Thatcher, who was our non on air guest today.

Okay, what about the most recent advice that you've received from a mentor?

I'm thinking because I want this to have some gravitas to it. I'm kind of at a stage in my career where I'm spending more time mentoring other people than I am right now being mentored as probably my business partner. So in addition to being an author and a speaker, I also am a talent speaking and literary agent. I co own a rising agency. My business partner Tony out of California is constantly reminding me about we can't do everything. Well, we can do everything, but then we'll be doing everything. And so he's constantly reminding me of the power of focus, the power of disciplined focus, that everything we say no to is probably something we can say great to with higher margin, higher impact. And so I tend to probably be too much of a yes person and a people pleaser person. And so I like to take on every client who calls me every opportunity. And I think what's happening is I'm probably having some diminishing results. So I would say the best advice I've gotten recently from a mentor is just to exercise integrity in the moment of choice and be more courageous about saying no when good often comes at the expense of great.

That is such powerful advice. And I find that focus no matter how many times I say it. And I try to have the mantra do less, say no, focus more. It's like trimming hedges in a garden, which I don't have.

I'm not skilled at. The hedges keep growing. Like, there is no one time that you focus in.

Okay, now check. I focused. Now it's really a muscle. I find it's a day to day thing. And you and I were talking before I hit record that your book is already doing quite well right out of the gate. And all that does is bring more.

Work and you have to kind of stretch your saying no muscles and your focus muscles even farther with every next rung of success for any of your given projects.

Well, as I've got this hedge metaphor, which I have hedges, I'm fertilizing and watering them every day. Of course they're growing. I need maybe need to water less and fertilize less because I'm spending all my time clipping them into a beautiful topiary.

Oh, I love that.

I'm picturing Edward Scissorhands right now as we speak.

Mine's actually a shrine to me. Mine looks like me.

Best hedges ever. Yes. Oh, my gosh. So one of the classes that I teach for managers and coaches is called Accelerating Aha Moments.

And I start the class by asking them, what's one of the most powerful questions that a mentor has asked you? Say, when you're contemplating or navigating a big career move?

So, Scott, I'm curious, do any super.

Powerful questions stand out that someone has asked you that kind of stopped you in your tracks or made you think differently?

Yeah, I think they usually kind of coalesce down into why. So why are you doing that? And then what will happen? And then what will you get? And then what will happen? Oftentimes in our careers and life, we're playing chess as opposed to checkers. One of my favorite books I've ever read and interviewed on my podcast is yous Next Five Moves by Patrick Bet. David, highly recommend this book, you Next Five Moves. And the metaphor he uses, of course, is playing chess is I don't know how frequently we think about. So if I do this, what does that look like five moves from now? What's the impact, positive or negative? If I write a book, am I prepared to be on 100 podcasts? Am I prepared to go give 100 keynote speeches? Am I prepared to create a course that might be adopted by 50 companies, but they all have different LMS systems and it has to have different types of scorm compliance and security features. And have you really thought through all the impact, positive and negative, of what your decisions might be? And so I think that's that. So then what? Then what happens? And what does that get you? And what does that get you? And I think if we actually believe that thinking is a legitimate business activity, we take the time to think about the consequences of our actions and decisions. I think we often hear the word consequences with a negative intonation or inclination, but it's also the positive consequences and they actually might come back to haunt you if you've actually not thought through it. So that probably would be my sense.

That's so true. And those positive consequences, sometimes there's no right or wrong answer. I remember thinking I reached a point with the pivot book and IP where I could either, I don't know, try to bring in a CEO or sell that part of the business or build out a whole consultancy with 10 or 20 or 100 employees. And that just made me cringe. And so I actually scaled back a lot of the efforts that I was doing to land new corporate clients. I'll react if someone comes to me and they're interested. I will absolutely move forward and have a conversation. But I realized that I would just be chasing somebody else's version of success if I were to go that route, that that business would no longer fit my strengths and interests. And unless I was going to sell it for a lot of money, it.

Just wouldn't have been worth the effort, even in the interim, to get it to that point for me personally.

Beautifully said. We're taping this podcast today, midday. I've already been on seven business calls. Interested organizations wanting to take the content from my recent mentoring book and adopt it in their company. And my colleague has another six calls set this afternoon. So today I will have 13 business calls, each about 40 minutes long. Now, that's 13 follow ups, 13 scopes of work, 13 pricing options. I've got to be more thoughtful. And by the way, not every day is 13 client calls, but, you know, usually six or seven. And so I've also got to be thoughtful when you create a product, a service, a solution that really matches where someone is in their pain, point in their circumstance, and a problem that they're trying to solve. I've got to make sure that I've spent as much time on creating a solution as I need to on delivering the solution at six or seven hours tonight. By the way, this is not a lament, right? I'm enormously grateful. I've got to be more thoughtful on planning my days to make sure that I have as much time delivering on the interest as I do on creating the interest.

We'll be right back just after this.

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I appreciate you sharing that and you can create the book. And I don't know about you, but I love the creation process.

I love pulling ideas out of the ether and into my mind and then creating a book that someone can hold in their hands.

It's so true, though, that it doesn't stop there. That actually, if you do that well.

It'S going to spawn all those meetings.

And calls that you're in the middle of today and all these next choices and next forks in the road. And not to mention you have three.

Young boys at home. You know, you have a very full life at home as well. So let's dig into the book a little bit. I laughed because your mentors and advisors and early readers of the book encouraged you. They said, scott, you cannot have 15.

Different hats that mentors can wear. You've got to pare it down like no more than 10. Try to aim for five to seven cheekily. So you ended up with 13.

So you got under 15. And you also snuck in a 14, which is where I'd like to start. The Jerk what is a jerk mentor?

Well, I think jerks are jerks. So to your point, the book is the ultimate guide to great mentorship. 13 roles to making a true impact. My publisher did want me to have like seven or eight after all. Scott, you know you're the seven habits guy. He worked for Stephen Covey for 25 years. You know the power of seven. I did get it down to 13. The 14th one is kind of a bonus role. I don't really talk about it much outside of the book, but this is really not a role you want to play. This was kind of a fun ending where I kind of role play what the jerk looks like. Someone who as a mentor is always talking about themselves. They're using so many self referenced examples. Well, I did this and I did that and if I were you, I would do this. Kind of breaking the golden rule of mentorship. You're not your mentee. You don't have their fears or their passions or their joys or their traumas. You're not them. So the jerk is really just kind of a tongue in cheek to quote you reminder, all the things not to do. It's kind of intuitive, right? Anybody could have written this chapter. If you think about your most arrogant leader, your most arrogant coach, your most obnoxious politician, you pretty much can see what's in the chapter around being the jerk. The jerk is a bonus role. I don't really call it the 14th role because I don't want people to think about it any other than like a light ending to the book. Does that make sense?

Yes.

And the reason I appreciate you including it is less about the capital J jerks running around that we all know and loathe. It's more that you. One can become an accidental jerk when mentoring or coaching others. And that's something that I found as well.

I teach managers and leaders how to.

Be better coaches and the very first thing I tell them is they've got to talk less. That actually a good coach is mostly asking simple, powerful, open ended questions.

And so the reason I'm glad you brought in the jerk at the end, even if it's meant in a humorous.

Way, is that sometimes even with our best intentions, like Michael Bungay, Stanier wrote.

A book called the Advice Monster. Our inner advice monster rears its head and we become an accidental jerk in a mentoring context.

Isn't that true? I mean, I think all of us in daily life we have a propensity to be a jerk, usually not as a sociopath. I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning and says who can I diminish today? Whose self esteem or self confidence can I lessen? Who can I triumph over? But I think in a hyper competitive world where we're all trying to both get ahead, but not at the expense of someone else, we have all kinds of moments of being a jerk. I'm sure I've been a jerk several times today and for me it's just about being mindful. What does being a jerk sound like, look like, feel like to other People, what's it like to be on the receiving end of Scott's frustration or Scott's charisma or Scott's creativity? Because my intent is not always matched with my technique and what I intend to share isn't always received the same way. A little bit of self awareness goes a long way in preventing yourself to be the jerk as a mentor, spouse, partner, leader, neighbor, roommate, parent, friend, committee member, son in law, you name it.

Podcast host, podcast guest.

There's so many demands about audio setup. I started today as a jerk. Okay, we don't have time to get into all 13 roles, nor would I want to to just stick on this like a book report.

But I'm wondering if, for listener's sake, I can read all 13. And then I have three rapid fire questions for you where you'll pick the one that applies. How does that sound?

I love it.

Okay, great. What's that reaction? Okay, listeners.

So the 13 roles that a mentor could play, they're not mutually exclusive. You could have more than one hat on in a given session or relationship are the revealer, the boundary setter, the absorber, the questioner, the challenger, the validator, the navigator, the visionary, the flagger, the distiller, the, the activator, the connector, and the closer. So, Scott, I want to ask you, what is the one that people miss opportunities to apply the most?

Oh, definitely number two, the boundary setter. I think this is one that is crucial for mentors to be mindful of. The boundary setter requires you to move outside of your comfort zone and discuss the undiscussables. Because oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes, there's a power hierarchy in mentorship. Typically, not always, but generally, the mentor is going to be a little older, a little more seasoned, a little more experienced. Not always, but frequently. And therefore, if that's the case, much of the time, your mentee is going to be sometimes unconsciously incompetent. They may not know the rules of the game. They may not know that they're crossing a metaphorical line. It's just naive. Good fences make good neighbors. So if you want to avoid conflict, if you want to as the mentor, void your mentee, crossing a line that you're not comfortable. For example, they may think you want to fund their business. They may confuse you as a mentor with being their ally or their champion. They're not the same. They may think that you should open up your metaphorical Rolodex and give them access to your network. Everybody's different. So if you want to Avoid those awkward positions for you and your mentee. You'll follow my advice in the book and be the boundary setter up front. And by the way, it isn't always just the mentor setting boundaries. I think you go first. You also invite your mentee. Hey, are there any boundaries you'd like me to be respectful of as well? It's a two way street, but the mentor leads it.

Which one do you think that mentors over rely upon?

What's their comfort zone?

Oh, I think the visionary role 8. When we think about the visionary, we think of big, bold, stretch visions. And well, what if you did this? And how about that? And here's what you could do. And I actually think it can be irresponsible when you think of the word visionary. I think it connotes a positive implication, but it isn't always true. You can crush someone with a vision that is based on your skills and your passions, not their skills and your passions. I think it's a trap that mentors fall in. Well intended and accidentally. But as a mentor, you've got to be cautious that you're painting a picture for what your mentee could do based on what it is they're trying to accomplish. Like parenting. Sometimes we live vicariously through our children and I think mentors fall into the same trap. Do not lure your mentee into accomplishing the things you wanted to accomplish when perhaps you might be setting them up for failure. It's counterintuitive, but I think it's valuable advice.

Yes.

And that tips us back into being an accidental jerk, that even with the best intentions, they're not us and vice versa.

Can I give you a good example of this?

Yes, love, good example.

So I live in Salt Lake City, Utah, where we're avid skiers out here. And I'm notorious for inviting my friends out from Miami. Never ski before. No problem. Come out. I'll have you skiing black Diamonds in two hours. Right. And what's happened is they're coming down in a stretcher and because I've oversold it, someone calls me and says, scott, I want to give a speech. No problem. Six thousand people. I'll train you in two hours. No problem. And they get up there and they have no idea how to manage an audience of 6,000 people. I am quite irresponsible when it comes into using my charisma and my selling skills, my persuasion skills. And what I think I can do doesn't necessarily have a correlation to what you think you can do. And so there's a fine line with being aspirational and being motivational and not setting other people up for failure because your passion doesn't always translate into their skill set.

That skiing metaphor is so perfect. I just picture myself. I always go down like a pie slice. If I'm on a black diamond, it's like I can get to the bottom, but I won't look good doing it.

It's actually an issue for me. So my intent is for you to have a great day and learn your skills and be able to ski together. But I have learned kind of the hard way that in my attempt to set people up for amazing success, I have set people up for some failures.

Well, I appreciate you sharing that, and the examples really are helpful here. Before I ask you my third rapid.

Fire question about the 13 types of.

Mentoring roles, you mentioned the difference between a mentor, a champion, a sponsor, and even a manager. And I know that when I was working in corporate, we were mostly focused on the mentor role. I didn't even say coach. And now there's a lot more nuance that I'm picking up on entering the conversation within corporate context. Could you just lay out for us what you see as the difference between coach, mentor, sponsor, champion? Because they all kind of aim in similar places, but they are different.

Yeah, I actually think they're very different. And I'm sure some of your listeners might disagree with me. Fantastic. How boring if we all thought the same, right? I think the biggest difference between a mentor and a coach is typically coaching is a profession. You've gone to some university credentialized program, you have a pedagogy, you have a process and you're charging money. Great for you. You are a professional coach. I'm thinking less in an athletic setting and more in a professional setting. But mentor is usually someone who is a leader. Perhaps you're an entrepreneur, perhaps you're doing this always typically pro bono. But mentor is someone that is marshaling their wisdom, their failures, their successes to the benefit of somebody else. And it's something done pro bono that's mission centric. That's in no way meant to minimize or diminish the value of a coach. They're just different. I see coaching as a certified process that's quite serious and quite accountable, directed. And mentoring is a little more informal, a little more aspirational. I do not think your coach or your mentor should be your leader. I have a pretty resolute position. Don't ask your leader or your manager to be your mentor. I think it sets them up for an uncareful or an uncomfortable and precarious position? Are there exceptions? Of course, some of our best mentors in life were our leaders, but we didn't name them as our mentor in the moment. We usually named them that later in life. I also don't think your mentor should be your ally or your champion or your sponsor. Now, they may come to decide to play that role later on. But if I'm your mentor, I may have been matched with you three weeks ago or three days ago. I'd never met you. How could I possibly recommend you for a job or be your ally or champion? I know nothing about your work ethic, your character, your competence, how trustworthy you are. Do you make and keep commitments now? After nine mentor sessions, I might have a better sense for that. But I really am passionate about mentors. Set boundaries around roles that you're going to play. Whenever I mentor someone in the first hour of the first session, I say, hey Jenny, let's have an uncomfortable conversation for three or four minutes. Now we'll go back to having a comfortable conversation, but for three or four minutes I need to discuss some uncomfortable things. First, I've got to set some boundaries. Let me tell you how I see the role of mentor. I do not see it as advocate, ally, or champion. I do not see it as banker. I don't see it as investor, and I certainly don't see it as connector. I have worked very hard to develop a list of pristine relationships and I do not share them easily. Now, the fact of the matter is, off the record. I'm an amazing networker and a connector. I love to make connections. But you and I both know that when I make a connection to someone, that's my reputation as much as it is theirs. And that person disappoints me or my friend, that comes back to harm my reputation. So I just think it's important to also upfront outline. Basically, don't ask me to be your referral. Don't ask me to be your ally, recognizing that when you set these boundaries, you can always choose to lower them if your mentee builds that level of confidence in you. But I always differentiate between how I see the role of mentor and other easily confused roles.

We'll be right back just after this.

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It's so helpful to hear your sample language too. Even the one around making introductions that that's not a guarantee. It's not just going to come with this new budding relationship site unseen that you're really careful about that as you should be. So thank you for sharing that.

And by the way, I make sure that I declare my intent right, because that could be a harsh conversation. I usually say it more genteelly, but no less clearly now. I set high boundaries early on. Do not ask me to introduce you to Matthew McConaughey. Do not ask me to give you Martha Stewart's phone number. It's not happening. I've built these connections. Like you, I'm able to host a lot of cool guests on podcasts. So like you, I have a broad network. But now what I'm doing is I'm listening and watching them over the course of the coming months and carefully watching how they might earn their way in to me, softening that high boundary. Because who knows, I mean, maybe Martha Stewart is looking for someone to run their digital media and the person I'm mentoring is the best person. But I want to make sure I thoroughly vetted them before I pick up the phone and call someone.

Yes, last question. About the 13 types.

Which of the roles delights you and.

Or your mentees the most?

Oh my gosh, for sure. Number six, the validator. I think this is the most powerful of all the roles. If done well, this can be life changing. For your mentee, the validator, it means that as a mentor, you're exercising great judiciousness with what you validate. You don't say, hey Ginny, I'm so honored and delighted you came on time today. I'm so glad you have some questions. That's great, but this is really about naming someone's Genius. Naming someone's superpower. It goes like this. Hey, Ginny, I'd like to stop for a moment. Like, literally, I want to take a time out, and I want you just to listen to some things I'm going to say. I don't want you to dispute them, refute them, deny them. I don't want you to minimize them. I actually want to pay you a compliment, Jenny. I want to validate something that I see in you as a very unique superpower. I'm even going to name it Jenny. You have a sense of calm about you that allows me to look smarter. The cadence, the tone, your inflection, your diction, the speed at which you ask your questions, your ability to pull back and let me share the second part of what I wanted to share, it sets me up for success. This is a superpower, Jenny. I think this could differentiate you. You get the point, right? I could go on and on, but I have paused. I have cited specific behaviors. I have named them out. And now let me tell you what's good, what Jenny's going to do. Jenny is never going to forget this. Whether she's 18 or 28 or 68, she's going to take that validation and she's going to metaphorically pack it in her backpack and she's going to carry it around with her when she's getting her ass kicked by her boss or someone has violated her trust or minimized her competence. And she's going to whip out that validation from Scott Miller and have it come to her aid at a time and a place when she needs it most. I can think of numerous occasions when someone validated me with great specificity and I carried it forward for decades.

Absolutely. Well, thank you, Scott.

This is really such a gift. I mean, I know you were giving an example, but what I find so powerful in the example you gave is.

Exactly what your intent was, but the specificity. And so, wow, to be on the receiving end of that. And you could have said anything. That would be a compliment and even generic and yet wonderful, like, oh, you have a great voice for podcasting, or I really love your interview style, but the way the depth and specificity with.

Which you gave when we only just met, it's not like we know each other. We're 40 minutes into, hopefully, a friendship to be continued.

Wow, that really did land. And you're absolutely right. That's going straight into my backpack for.

What I call my keeper's file. So thank you for that beautiful gift.

It's a golf club that goes in Your club, your bag, and then you bring it out and you swing it whenever you need to. This is the most powerful of all of the roles. It's the validator. It requires a pause. It requires specificity. It requires identifying behavior that you think is a differentiator in whatever it is they're trying to accomplish. It should not be done in every mentoring session. It should be not done so often where it has no meaning. It should be done very carefully so that it's separated and is elevated Amongst all the other things being discussed in your mentoring relationship.

There's another practice that you have that.

Seems like it pairs with this perfectly.

And so before we wrap up, I would love for you to share what.

You think the benefits are of a mentor creating a handwritten or handcrafted certificate of completion at the end of a relationship.

I love that you asked this. No one has asked me this question in a hundred plus interviews.

Wow.

When I was in my 30s, I was living in Chicago. It's where I met my wife. And we went on to get married and have three kids. And I decided to join the gym. And I was that fairly tall, lean, like, very lean guy into my 30s. And one day I decided to change my life. And I decided to put on a bunch of muscle mass. So after six years of working three times with a trainer, could have bought a Ferrari on that one. At the end of my training sessions, as I was moving from Chicago back to Utah again, my trainer, a guy named Chris Triber, he actually found a piece of, like, construction paper, and he wrote out a certificate of completion, like he was a certified trainer. But he took, like, a pen and just sketched out this hideous 8 1/2 by 11 landscape certificate of completion. And it was, like, meant to be sincere. It was also sort of super hokey. And let me tell you, at 15 years later, Jenny, I still have it. I mean, I don't have the Wall Street Journal that showed my book at number three, but I have Chris Triber certificate from me, quote, completing my training course. Well, completing meaning ending, because I was moving away. My point is, when you're a mentor, at the end of your sessions, do the same thing. Don't download one off the Internet. Take out a crayon and a piece of paper and say, congratulations on surviving the school of Scott Miller. Annoying, tough, difficult, painful, but hopefully rewarding. You're the best. And sign your name on it with a smiley face. I mean, the more senior you are, the more it'll be treasured. Right? Because I think a lot of Times we take ourselves so seriously with our EVPs and C titles. And I've earned all those things. And by the way, I don't make it stupid, so it's not meaningful, but I actually put a little bit of heart and intent into it. I even identify some of the things that I've seen in them and write about it. And I don't know if my mentees have treasured it as much as I've treasured mine from my trainer, but I like to think so.

I love this so much. I just have the biggest smile on my face. Hearing you describe it, hearing the certificate you got from your trainer and that you still have it, I don't blame you. I'd frame that, put it right on the wall. So, listeners, that's one experiment you can practice with creating your own certificate of completion for mentees.

Scott, is there any other small experiment that you'd invite listeners to try in the next week? Something small as it relates to being a great mentor.

I mentioned this a little bit earlier in our conversation. I just think it's the golden rule you cannot break. I think as a mentor, a lot of us mistake what our job is. Our job is really to help our mentee clarify what it is they're trying to accomplish. Not what you think they should accomplish. They're really helping them uncover. You're like a paleontologist. You're like an archeologist. Your job is to brush away, blow away the surface dirt and to help your mentee really understand what it is they're trying to accomplish. And for you to have the biggest impact as a mentor to do just that, you've got to build your self awareness. You've got to be really hyper aware of what it's like to be mentored by you. I mean, you and I have very little in common when it comes to our communication style. I'm fairly impulsive. You seem to be quite deliberate. I'm always in persuasion mode. You seem to be in interesting listening mode. Right. I have a very sort of harsh, loud voice. You have a very soft, enveloping voice, by the way. I love what I do. Right. What I do is what I do. I mean, my charisma and my strengths are my strengths until they're overplayed. Because all your strengths when overplayed, become your weaknesses. So my point in sharing that last bit there is to really understand what is it like to be on the receiving feedback from you, what's it like to be in a zoom call with you? What's it like to be sitting with you at Starbucks and your body language and your intensity and your voice inflection. So few of us have any idea what it's really like to be in any kind of relationship with us. So go ask. Go ask your wife what's it like to be married to me. Go ask your roommate what's it like to live with me. Go ask your boss what's it like to lead me. Go ask people and build your self awareness and then calibrate as necessary.

Thank you. That's very courageous homework.

I love the call to action. The challenge to all of us. This has been so delightful. Scott to chat with you listeners.

Make sure to get your copy of the Ultimate Guide to Great Mentorship. And Scott, is there anywhere else you'd like to send people to keep in touch?

That's so great. The website for the book is greatmentorship.com I have a online certification program that people who want to increase their mentorship skills are choosing to invest in that, as are their companies. For them, you can visit scottjeffreymiller.com and you can follow me on any social media platform. To my wife's horror, I'm on them all.

Amazing. Well, thank you so much again. Big thanks everybody for listening.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter at @jennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always?

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