352: “A Goal Should Not Be a Chore” — How to Set Aspirational Pull Goals with Ayelet Fishbach

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What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast. If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Welcome back, Pivoters. I am so excited to have Dr. Ayalet Fiswah here with us today. She's a professor of Behavioral Science and Marketing at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. She's an expert on motivation and decision making and the author of Get It Done. Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation. I have to say thank you to previous guest Cathy Onetto, who gave a shout out to ayelette in episode 320 as we were talking about sustainable ambition. And so the onestone creative team sent an email to Ayelette saying, hey, you're featured in this episode. And Kathy and I said, and we'd love to have you on our shows if you'll say yes. And you did. So thank you so much. Welcome to the show.

Well, I'm excited to be here today. Thanks for reaching out.

On the topic of goal setting, which is central to the book, it strikes me that for people who grow up in a really collective way, collective culture, collective group or community, discerning your goals from the collective or the community's goals can be quite confusing. And so I'm wondering how your relationship to discerning your own goals from the broader group has evolved since those early days.

I was full time growing up in kibbutz. I was there until age 18, which is when I went to have my mandatory military service and never went back. Basically moved to the city. This is to say that I probably was not the best fit to the communal way of living. I was not into farming. I did not want to get tractor driving license when I was 15, which was a big deal back then. So you ask how to discern your goals from the goals of others. In that context, I think it was probably easy because I was not a great fit to begin with. I actually learned a lot about how the situation can affect the goals that you're pursuing and what you care about and how much you thrive. I also learned that a large part of pursuing goals is doing it with others and in the presence of others. And there is no better place to learn that than when you grow up in a communal society.

A lot of your language is around pulling. It pulls us forward or we pull ourselves up versus what might be a push goal or a goal that's a means to an end. So can you share why the language of pulling as it relates to goal setting or aspirational goals?

This is because if you set the goal right, you know how to monitor progress. It fits with your other goals. You are used social group support this then the goal will do the work. It shouldn't be hard. I think that it's a common mistake to think about motivation as strength, as muscles. We were actually chasing that metaphor for a few years. As a field, we were trying to see whether self control acts as a muscle, whether motivation is a resource. Not much evidence for that. What we know now is that if you set the goal right, it will pull you. Let me give you a very concrete example of that. I have a dog. The dog needs to be walked. She makes me walk so I don't have to push myself to get to my step count. There is another creature in my house that at 7am Says hey, I'm already one hour after the time that ideally I would like to go on a walk. This is a girl that pulls, or in this specific example, a dog that pulls.

And puppies literally pull. They will pull you all the way around the block. People used to tell me who's walking who. They used to yell the street.

I mean, exactly right? You don't have to tell yourself, I need to be working, I need to be moving. It's just part of your day. It just happens because you set things in a way that work for you.

Yes. So I'm wondering if we can workshop two goals. They're similar but related, that every time I set them, I fail. Okay. And now I did read your book, but maybe you can talk us through and listeners. I always try to pick examples relevant to you. I don't know hopefully it will be. I thought about even talking about weight and weight loss, but I'm so bored with it already that we won't go there yet, because I know that's often a common goal people have, although norms are changing, luckily. Yes. Right. Okay, so we'll put a pin in that issue specifically. I often think to myself, okay, I've written three books, I have two podcasts, and each time I'm launching a book or when I think about that, I really want to podcasting to be my main goal and role because I love it. I love it so much. I get a lot of meaning. It is aspirational for me to do this work, but every single time I try to set a numerical goal for how many downloads or even how much ad revenue or whatever, or how many book sales, it's as if it's meaningless to me. No matter what numbers I've set. And this is now over a decade of experimenting with goals in this way that feel like they're connected to an aspirational vision that I have. They don't motivate me. I fall short. I never hit them. And so I'm wondering if we could workshop this to see what is going on. What is wrong with my goals?

The goal is great. The goal is to be successful at the work that you love. We are discussing the target. The target is the number that you put in it. The target is the how much and how soon. The target can be helpful. Targets are often motivating. There is a reason why your gym teacher might say, yeah, let's count 12 more reps or something that is motivating. But these numbers are often the wrong numbers and they are the wrong numbers. Well, in your example, when you have little control over them, and I know I can get myself to do another five push ups, but I cannot influence how many copies of my book are being sold. I just don't have direct effect on that. So the numerical goal becomes something that is outside of my control. The numerical goal that is the target can also backfire in other ways. We see that sometimes when people hit their target, they disengage with the goal. In a way, they only think about this goal in terms of the numbers. There is a classic study with cab drivers in New York City showing that they quit when they hit the amount of income that they set for the day. Now, I bet nowadays many Uber and Lyft drivers do this. They have a goal to get to a certain amount of money and then they quit. The problem with such targets is that on days when it's easy to make money, you end up working less than on days in which is hard to make money. So when the city is busy and everybody wants to drive around within four hours, you meet your target and you go do something else. But you know what? That's the day in which you should have been working for eight hours and not just four on that slow day. This is when you should only work a few hours. And then finally, a numerical target can lead to unethical, unhealthy behaviors. I start my book with the example of getting to that summit of Mount Everest. And I tell the story of a group of mountaineers that basically some of them were injured, some of them were not coming back as a result of setting this very specific goal, which is to get today to the summit of Mount Everest. This is extreme example. But you know, there are extreme diets, there is investment in projects that actually we should quit and we keep doing it because we have this target.

Yes, I did an episode on that. The perverse incentives sometimes with numerical goals and how they can be tricky because exactly like you said, the crash diet or even people buying followers, their goal is to be an influencer or get sponsorships. But then you buy followers and then that can backfire. I feel like there are some people who are very motivated that if they said, okay, I'm currently getting 1,000 downloads per episode, I want to get to 10,000. And they are just so motivated, they're so on it, they're competitive in a good way, and that number fuels them. And then, okay, they hit 10,000. And then maybe unlike the cab driver, they go, okay, Now I want 100,000. And I feel like there are some people that really, it works for them, these kinds of numbers, because I guess when I was reading your book, the aspiration is earn an abundant living while making an impact. But then if I would put specific targets, I just blow over them. I ignore them as if they don't exist. In contrast to what I feel, some people are actually motivated by them.

Yes. So what motivates people is often being intrinsically motivated. That is, pursuing the goal is an end in itself. For some people that target these downloads, that ad target, this is an exciting game. Like this is like getting up in the morning and checking how many people downloaded it. So for the rest of us, how many people liked my post on social media and it might be a game that is exciting, that gives meaning to it. What I do, the person is intrinsically motivated and they find it useful. I think that for you, this is more of an extrinsic motivation. You really don't get pleasure of watching the downloads, monitoring how is it going. You feel like you should be doing it. It's a goal where you want to get to the target but you don't really enjoy the way and then just drop that target. It's not motivating.

And would I replace it with a different target? So for example, my friend Jay, we did an episode where he talked about his even more meaningful metrics. So if he puts out a podcast or an email newsletter and he counts the urr's unsolicited reply ratio, how many people hit reply to a newsletter that he writes and say, wow, this is just what I needed today. And say kind words, for example. Now those might feel good in the moment, but what if Jay's mission or mine, let's say when I publish a book or you with your book actually I'm curious if you had any numerical goals where we know a lot of authors, they want to make the list or you know that if you can sell the first thousand books or the first 10,000 books, you know it's going to start to spread word of mouth and it will gain traction in a very important way for the longevity of the project. I'm curious for you personally, does that motivate you?

I did not set such goals. Now my situation is a bit different. I'm an academic, I'm a researcher, I study motivation. Writing a book was so much fun. I basically took a year of my life and thought about what I Learned in the 20 years before then and how to organize to knowledge. And I discovered like this framework that emerged from the organization and I was completely in it and really enjoyed it. But then by the end of the day, I went back to do my daily job which is to run studies, collect data, see what increases motivation more than others things and I'm not monitoring the numbers. I, I don't like it actually I find it kills the mood kind of.

Yes, that's a good way to put it. Yes.

So why would we do something that like we have no influence on that and will make us feel bad? I'm all for negative feedback when it works, but being competitive just for the sake of like you never win the competition because there are always people that are going to be ahead. Right. So why would you do this?

We'll be right back just after this.

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It's interesting to think about your work in the context of us each individually creating goals that feel aspirational and less of a chore, and that that's not a universal rule of what goals feel like a chore versus ones that don't. You give a lot of examples in the book, but I appreciated the traps that you talked about that can get in the way of a powerful goal.

Yes, a goal should not be a chore. One example of something I'm sure you discussed many times, which is people setting exercise goals, people often set them with a mindset of going to punish myself, I should be running. I hate running, but I should be running. I've been told that I should do this exercise that doesn't feel good, but it's the first day of the month or the year and I'm going to do this. And what we consistently find is that these goals fail, and they fail very soon after they set who is going to stick with their goals? Well, the person that sets goals that they are excited about that they just can't wait to to do that. Now, let me say that we set goals because we are somewhat extrinsically motivated. Okay? It's not just about the fun. We don't set goals to eat more ice cream and watch more tv. We set goals such as to work on our project at work, which for us is disseminated ideas. We set goals that relate to our health and our finance and our relationships with other people. So yes, we set things because we think that we are not quite where we want to be, but we need to set it in a way that makes us excited to do this. Basically, that God pulls us, that we don't need to push ourselves.

Yeah, I appreciate that so much because you had some great conversations with Dan Harris was one of them. And Eric Zimmer, who's a previous guest of this show on the Wolf you feed, where you were saying, when it's an intrinsic goal, you don't even need to set the goal in the first place. So I appreciated you highlighting as well that for the goals we need to set, it's likely that they're not 100% intrinsically joyful. The example you gave is watching TV. Guilty as charged. I love reality TV. I don't need a goal to go sit down and watch my favorite guilty pleasure TV shows. I don't need a goal. That's like, my default state. What I try to do is like, okay, you can only watch that show if you get on the peloton bike and watch for the first 30 minutes. While riding the bike. I have to kind of entice myself to some of the other things that aren't just by default relaxing or joyful or freeing or. I don't even know how to describe it.

What you just described is what Katie Millman will call temptation bundling. Now, your goal is to get on the peloton bike, which is nice that you are still using this bike, because I know for many people that by now it's basically a closed hangover.

Yes, mine is on a lot of days. Don't worry.

So it's nice that you're using it, but you're making it fun because you really want to know what happens to these people in their lives. And the only way to find out is by going on the peloton. And I do the same. Like, I have things that I connect with exercising that I'm really excited about. I want to watch this show. I want to listen to this podcast. And the way to do it is by exercising.

Eric was talking to you about this, and I agree. Why on earth is something like exercise that we know is good for us, we know will help us live longer, feel better? Why does it continue to elude some of us? I feel like I know some friends who are just super athletic and it's no problem, and they live for exercise. They just know that about themselves. And if I get into a good groove and I'm on a roll, I do really well with streaks, I'll be okay. But God forbid I break my streak, and then inertia sets in so quickly. I don't know if it's my ayurvedic dosha or what, but oh, my gosh. Then I need to muster the motivation all over again. So why have we evolved to have this weird relationship with food and exercise when we know what's good for us and how we'll feel when we do the things that promote better health? This drives me nuts. You can tell I'll get off my rant now.

Jenny, you're raising so many great insights and questions here. At first, why doesn't it become a habit? Well, some behaviors that are good for us are completely habitual. Like we wake up in the morning, we brush our teeth. You ask me an hour later whether I did this. I barely remember. But I know I did it because I don't need to motivate myself. This is just part of getting up some activities, such as exercising in the morning. Even though I actually do this almost every morning, I still get myself to do this. It is never completely habitual like other habits, like things that you don't need to think about it. So just be realistic. Some goals, you will have to take the initiative and restart the thing every time. It's not going to just happen by itself. You also mention that starting something is hard. And this is true. Even for something that eventually will feel pleasurable and easy. It is often hard. Kaling, Wooley and I did some studies in which we encouraged people to set the goal to feel uncomfortable. And what we found is that when people get into the task thinking that my immediate goal right now is to feel uncomfortable, then actually they feel very comfortable with feeling uncomfortable. They are. Okay. We did a study with improv students, the Second City Improv Club here in Chicago, and we encourage them to feel uncomfortable as they are doing the improv exercise. If you ever try to learn how to do improv, it's very easy to feel uncomfortable. It's kind of embarrassing before you get used to it. They were more engaged because they took this negative signal as a positive signal. They realized that sweat or embarrassment or emotional difficulty, this is a sign that this is working. This is a sign that you are doing well. And then you also mentioned that why don't we eat what's good for us? And gosh, that's a whole other topic. We were a bit tricked by modern life. We actually eat based on principles of what is good for us many years ago in our evolution.

Your response reminds me of another part of the book that I found very interesting. You talk about avoiders versus approachers, and that we have a behavioral approach system, the bis, and a behavioral inhibition or avoidance system. Biscuit, can you tell us about these two systems and how it relates to the context of goals that we set.

Many of the goals that we set are approach goals. It's about what we want to do. We want to sell books or we want to eat certain foods, or we want to exercise or we want to excel at work. Other goals are more of do not goals. We don't want to lose our job. We don't want to eat certain foods. We don't want to engage in certain behaviors. We want to move away from certain relationships. It's interesting to note that for many goals, you can choose whether you think about it in terms of approach or avoidance. Take being excellent at your job. Can you think about it in terms of approaching success or avoiding failure? I want to do something great. Oh, I don't want to mess up. What research finds is that most people most of the time are more motivated by approach framing. Of course, thinking about your job in terms of approaching success is usually for most of us, better. But there are important individual differences. That is, some people and for some goals are actually highly motivated by that avoider's cause. And these are the avoiders. And you kind of need to ask yourself, well, what motivates me to eat the food that I want to eat? Is it that I want to approach, I.e. select good food that's good for me, or do I want to avoid this specific food by the end of the day? It depends on you. Every person is different.

Now, is there a nature versus nurture element to this of what makes us an avoider or an approacher?

The social psychologist in me always resists anything that is about our genes. We always appreciate the flexibility and the way our life shapes us, the way we are. So I bet both can. I would only focus on how the situations that we are in our upbringing, our social interactions affect the strategies that we use. Because this is something that we can change.

Yeah, exactly. The social setting that. If you had strict parents, does it inform your relationship to goal setting? Or if you had super permissive parents, would that change someone's relationship? I don't know if you've studied any of this.

I did not study that, but I can talk about personal experience.

Yes, I would love to know.

In my family, we believe in approach, goals, setting high expectations, and we don't have punishment. I have three children and they made many conversations with teachers. They were often surprised that we don't have punishment, like we don't have consequences. I try to explain that we have really high expectations in my household. Here we want our kids to be the best. But when they mess up, we move on mainly as expectations, not punishment. So hopefully they learn to set approach goals more than avoidance goals.

We'll be right back just after this.

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Well, I don't have kids, but I appreciate you sharing that because when I was doing research on behavioral training for dogs, they don't even understand punishment. They actually, at least the books that I read, said that dogs don't understand when you say what not to do or bad or you punish them for something, they cannot actually make the association with what they did and that they shouldn't do that again. They could later, maybe out of fear and intimidation, could adapt their behavior, but it's far less powerful than what you just described. The approach and the aspiration, saying, I love it. Like today, Ryder and I, we sprinted down the hallway in my apartment and he glued himself to my hip because I had mini hot dogs that I brought back from the grocery store. And so I learned this from Susan Garrett, who's all about giving the dogs choice. And you help them choose the choice that you want. And it was so cute. It was like his motivation was so strong for this little hot dog, and he sprinted and glued himself in a heel in a sit. And that was aspirational. Whereas if I had just punished him for not getting there on time, like, I don't think it would sink in nearly as much.

I completely agree with you. Dogs understand that you're upset. They just have no idea what is the correct response. They understand that they should not pee on the carpet. They just have no idea where should they pee.

Yeah, Right.

Now, what is interesting is that we find the same effect for people, except they don't pee on the carpet. What we find is that you can teach someone new information using positive feedback or negative feedback. So you can tell them what they guessed wrong, or you can tell them what they guessed correctly. And in my studies, basically, people are presented with binary questions. So now I ask you, what is the meaning of a word that you've never seen? And there are two options. Either it's a hand or it's a foot. If I give you positive feedback on what you guessed correctly, you learn. If I give you negative feedback, I tell you what you guessed incorrectly, even though you could have inferred. If this word is not a foot, then it must be a hand. There is much less learning. There is barely learning. People tune out, they lose interest. They are not excited. Now, again, there are individual differences, but in general, positive feedback is easier, which of course is a bit unfortunate because life can teach us a lot through negative feedback. It's just harder to learn.

That's interesting because in Susan David's work on emotional agility, she talks about how when things are going really well, we learn less. We're a little less observant. So what's fascinating about what you just said, let's say we're going through challenge. It can be hard to understand, especially if we have personal blind spots. What did we do wrong? How did we end up here? But then this is the work of therapy. And personal growth is those are the moments that also simultaneously require us to slow down and reexamine and really unpack. How did we get here? This is why it could be so confusing to be a human being in this world.

Yes, and I think that it's a bit confusing because the message on negative feedback should be more nuanced. It's hard to learn from negative experiences, meaning that we often don't learn. And if we learn, we often learn the wrong lesson. We learn that it's not for me, that I should never try this again because I cannot do this. I'm not good at it. Basically learn helplessness. Now, it's really important to learn from these experiences because this is often when you have new information, Right? If everything goes as you planned, you didn't learn anything. If I designed a study, I got exactly the results that I predicted. Well, it's great. I can publish a paper, but frankly, I knew that this is what I'm going to get before I run the study. The results exactly confirmed my expectations. However, when things don't go as planned, there is something to learn. There is new information. So, yes, there is information in setbacks and things don't go the way you Planned it, but it's much harder to learn than if everything goes as you expected.

Now, what would you say to that end, to somebody who things aren't working out or something goes wrong or they make a mistake, etc. The person who should actually drop the goal, they have not chosen the right goal for themselves, even for their soul's calling, versus the person who should persevere. So even let's take an example of a PhD student. Maybe some of them hit a lot of roadblocks. Their dissertation is a disaster. I don't know because I don't have a PhD. But for somebody, they realize I'm not supposed to be here, I'm going to quit, leave the program early, versus the other person who goes, this is the quest I'm on. I will be a professor someday. And they're meant to stick with it.

I actually love your example because if you are pursuing a PhD, there is no way that you are not going to feel the way that you described. It is absolutely expected that at one point, at many points, you would wonder whether this thing is for you. It's just that the goal is too hard. It's like a person training to a marathon will ask themselves at one point whether this is even something that they can do and should I maybe quit? It's just every time that you do something that's really hard, you will wonder whether you have made the right choice. Now, the people that are successful are the people that were able to survive these thoughts. They were able to say, well, I doubt myself, but maybe I should stick a little bit longer. Maybe I can get over that. At one point you will realize that this is just not for you and you do need to adjust your goals. There are certain things that you need to quit. But just the initial idea that maybe it's not for me will happen to 100% of the people who attempt difficult goals.

Absolutely. Now, I'm going to use that as a 90 degree turn here because that's true for many authors as well. And some authors say it never gets any easier, that no matter if it's their first book or their fifth, they always have that messy middle, as Scott Belsky calls it. And I read a line in your acknowledgments that I just selfishly have to ask you about. One of your editors, Cassandra, you said she helped you add color to your black and white stories. And I thought that was the most beautiful. Thank you note because I've often used that metaphor too, of trying to take something from a black and white photograph to a 3D movie. And my mind doesn't naturally think that way. And so I'm just wondering if you can take us behind the scenes a little bit to either what you found challenging of working on the book or your messy middle. And also specifically that line in particular I just thought was a very beautiful description of your process.

Wow, Jenny, thank you so much for noticing this. Cassie is wonderful. And Cassie works with me after I wrote the first draft. And you're right. So you know that like there is the part where you talk about yourself and you expose yourself. And I'm like all academics. I'm a very private person. We are introverts. We are people that sign up for a job where most of the day just sit in your office by yourself. We don't talk about our life and not like the way right now, like I bought my kids at the conversation. It's not how we brought up. So Cassie would just like go chapter by chapter, page by page and say wing more of yourself. When I hesitated, she said, well, let me ask you questions. How exactly did it go? What did this person tell you? How did you respond? And there were like stories. Let me give the example that I talk about how my husband and I became American citizens and you have to go and do this test. And she really asked questions about the test. So like where were you sitting and how nervous you were and what kind of questions were asked and brought color into a story that initially was just, oh, I was nervous being tested for my knowledge of American geography.

Right. Isn't it interesting how I don't know when people ask me those follow up questions or ask myself at first I think, I don't know, I don't remember. I have to really sit with it and go, how did I feel? Sometimes I block them out, you know, if it's a really nerve wracking moment and then it is interesting to go back and try to add the color after the fact of having lived it.

Yes. Which is why it's actually wonderful to work with another person that knows when to push and when to ask the question.

So if you could leave listeners with one small experiment that they can try this week or next after they're done listening around aspirational goals that pull us forward, what would it be?

One thing that you can try this week, I would say try to think about how your goals fit with each other. We have multiple goals. We have relationship goals, health goals, financial goals, work goals. How do they fit with each other? Take work and family goals. It's easy for many people to see how they are conflicting, think instead of how whatever you do at work supports your family members, helps them, how they'll support, how being a daughter, a partner, a parent helps you at work. And when people are able to identify these connections, when they perceive their goals are more coherent and less conflicted, then these goals more easily pull them.

Super helpful, thank you. And for that reminder too that yes, we have many operating in parallel. And I appreciated your insights in the book too, about we had to make sure that they're not in conflict, like one goal directly sabotaging the other and vice versa, even unintentionally.

Yeah, that happens all the time. And women, the girls need to support each other, not undermine each other.

Sometimes I feel like that is the work of adulting, by the way. Oh, you want to have a family and a career. There you go now, the tug of war for time and attention and energy. And yes, it can be integrated. But it's so powerful for me, like since I got married because I used to just live by myself and work by myself all day. And then you don't quite have that sense of tension being pulled in multiple directions in those early days.

Yes, even like my college students are struggling with like let's say mental health and academics. They stay up all night to finish their work and now undermine their mental health and then they cannot be good students. Right. So yeah, you need to find the.

Right fit and then our bodies are yank the rope back or two. It's like you can't just go for your academics at the expense of your physical body. That's why everyone gets sick when finals are over. Well, listeners, you'll have to read the book to get the rest of the great advice and framework from Ayelette. It's called Get It Done. And is there anywhere else that you'd like to send people?

My website, ayeletfishbank.com I publish there all the new research that comes out of my lab. Lots of information there. And I really think that being successful is about being wise. It's about knowledge. So go there, learn how to motivate yourself and you will be able to reach your goals and it will feel easy.

Oh, I love that. Well, thank you so much, Ayoola. Thank you for being here and big thanks everybody for listening.

Thanks Jenny.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

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