354: How Do You “Un-Rut” Yourself? Live Show with Adrian Klaphaak

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What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Welcome back, Pivoters. I am so excited because today is our live podcast taping with Adrienne Clapack returning guest host. This is number 11 of our career Pathfinder by Pivot album that we're recording. We'll put the full link to that on Spotify in the show notes. You probably know by now, but just in case not Adrian is one of my first career coaches. He's a guide. He's an entrepreneur. He's the founder of a path that fits career and life coaching. His coaching approach is holistic, a balance between getting results and a quest for meaning and fulfillment. Adrian, welcome back to the show.

Thank you, Jenny. Happy to be here and very excited about a live recording. I love things live, so this is great extra gc.

So thank you to our listeners who are here with us live in the moment in the Zoom Room. It's so exciting. I asked Adrienne to come up with one topic of the day and then we'll open it up to questions and we'll take those questions live. And I brought you Adrian, a zinger from my 40th birthday. Jack, who's here with us already knows because I shared it in BFF. To celebrate turning 40, I invited people to high tea in New York City at a quirky little place in the Gramercy district in a brownstone called Lady Mandel. And I brought quotes from Alice in Wonderland on cards. And they progressed from what's something really silly that you're afraid to admit down to this last one, that's a zinger. And it just came up on a free time conversation. So I thought I'll bring it over to here and pivot. The quote is. But it's no use now, thought poor Alice, to pretend to be two people. Why there's hardly enough of me left to make one respectable person. So my question to start, Adrian, he didn't know this in advance. Who are you ready to stop pretending to be?

That is a zinger. Wow. Let me take a moment with that.

Yeah, I just threw you right into the deep end. And if you're listening, take this pause as an opportunity to reflect on that same question. Who are you ready to stop pretending to be?

Well, where I go with it is wanting to stop being a pleaser. I'm such a pleaser, I always have been. Like, it was my first.

Survival strategy and it served me very, very well. It's enabled me to deeply tune in, empathize with other people. I think that's one of the skills, strengths of a pleaser is being able to tune in and empathize. And I love that quality, that gift, ability inside of me. I don't want to lose that. But what I want to stop pretending to do or be is bending so far to other people's desires, wills, and in that way leaving, you know, my own truth, my own, my own desire. It's like too much pleasing feels like it pulls me away from myself and I start to go against myself. So instead of including myself, instead of taking care of myself as well as other people, I abandoning myself. And I know that gets really stressful and I also don't feel like it's the most authentic, honest way of being. And I guess I'm scared of speaking the truth to people. I love clients, anybody, and having them get angry, upset, not like me. But if I really could choose in each moment, I would choose the more honest, kind, but honest, more expressive of my truth. So pleaser. Long way of saying pleaser.

That's so good. I love how you said at the end, kind but honest and more expressive. We've talked about people pleasing. I know we're both have that tendency and in fact, I talk about so much wanting to drop that aspect, and I just have the urge to ask you, who would you be if you weren't people pleasing.

The first thing that comes to mind is more honest, but I think you're not quite asking that. It feels like there's more. I'm trying to imagine envisioning myself. I'd be more direct. I think it'd be more free. There's a certain inner tension I feel from feeling something inside myself that feels true, that I want, that I want to express, and then worrying about the impact of directly expressing that or following that. So there's a tension that's generated. So I think I'd be more free, I guess, more direct, more assertive. But really, it's the freedom that would be most different kind of an inner freedom. Sounds exciting. It's a great question. It gets me more motivated to attempt to surrender some of that pleasing.

I remember hearing Oprah talk on Cheryl Strayed's podcast back when she still had that going. And then more recently on Glennon Doyle and Co and Abby and sister Amanda. I'll put those links in the show notes. But it was Oprah who I heard more than once say, there's a difference between being nice and being kind. And it's so interesting because I heard you use the word kind. Kind, but honest. And that was her journey as well. She doesn't want to be seen as nice. I think she mentioned even debating this with her bff, Gail, that Gail wants to be nice and Oprah does not want to be nice. She almost sees it as an insult because probably for her, being nice is that pleaser. It's like, almost has a sticky quality to it, at least as I'm picturing it. And it's so interesting. It's like, what would it look like to give some of that niceness up? And maybe friends and family and extended and strangers asking for things. Like, maybe they would think, oh, well, that's kind of rude, you know, is that okay? I mean, is that an okay cost if it gives us more freedom and more freedom to be ourselves and be more expressive, like you said? So I just have that distinction in mind for all of us existing on that spectrum of nice versus kind or bold. And does it matter? Like, I'm so obsessed, too, of, like, being seen as a good person. And when I had a publisher, a good author, and wanting everyone to see me as good, you know, this came up in the episode with Natalie Liu that I also put in the notes. It's like, who cares? I don't know. It's just, like, comes at a cost. And people always say as they get older, like, with every passing decade, you just care less and less. And I always feel so excited when someone tells me that, because I'm like, I can't wait to care less than I do right now.

Yeah. What about for you? What's your response to the question? I can't remember it exactly, but the original zinger. Maybe you can.

The zinger is, who are you ready to stop pretending to be? And the answer that I gave my birthday in October hasn't changed, which is that I feel so strongly that I'm ready to stop pretending to be an expert at anything at all. And not like, on the one hand, you could say, oh, I wrote the book Pivot, and I've given so many speeches and I've had so many questions, so many podcasts. And there are arguably certain things I know ish, but I just only feel less confident with every passing day, probably because I'm still mid goose state of whatever my next incarnation is supposed to be. That is why rolling a dough has been so freeing. And I know I talk about it all the time, but I think the reason for that is that it is where I'm currently finding freedom. And it is the first time in such a long time, maybe the entire 12 years of business, other than our BFF calls that are always behind a paywall, that are private, where I'm not even pretending to be an expert. I'm actually just every single essay trying to share something that goes wrong or that doesn't go as I expect. And I'm finding it to be such a relief. And I know a few of you are here from DOE who are here recording with us live even, and there is just something, some permission slip of. I don't think it's my zone of genius to, like, tell people how to run their business. Sure, freeing up time. I'm really proud of what I created with free time, but even there, I'm approaching my 240th episode of the podcast and I try to do one guest interview every Tuesday and one solo every Friday. And there is just something in me feeling tapped out on the solos. Like, I think I've said what I have to say. I don't know how much more there is to say right now in terms of the teaching mode, but I can definitely uncover all the stuff I'd rather not talk about or the things that I don't. Like pretending to have it all together to Bottom line it, that's what I'm ready to stop. And it's nerve wracking because it's tricky to imagine projecting an image. I guess I'm careful. Artemy has gotten feedback in the past like, oh, that's not cute. To just talk about what, like what a hot mess you are. It's probably an outdated phrase by now. I'm having a gremlin like as I answer this question. But that's it. Stop pretending to have it all together. Talk about what's difficult, shine light on it, put words to it, craft little metaphors, chopped salads of all my little anecdotes and quotes and links and resources. But around the mess, not just the shiny stuff.

And if you're less the expert, who are you more of?

I want to say a voice for the other 50%, not 50% of people. I mean 50% if not more sometimes of the experience of running a business or pursuing creative projects.

That I feel like it's well and good when things are going well. But the majority of content around this online seems to be people who have like achieved and what they did and what they figured out. For me, dropping the expert, I get to give a voice and help people feel less alone. In the other part that most business owners, myself included, are afraid to talk about because you don't want to deter future business and make matters worse. So it's a fine line because it's like by talking about it, I don't know. I always think about dating parallels. If you broadcast how long you've been single and like almost is like mimetic repulsion even on a subconscious level. So that's what I have ringing in my mind. But I don't care anymore. Don't care anymore. It's worth it to me to put words to it.

I've loved reading your essays. I do feel like it normalizes the large part of my experience and others I know from hearing clients that's difficult. Thank you. The struggle, the shadow, the doubts. Yeah, the flails, the fails.

Yeah, the flails, the fails. I love how you want that. Yes. The clients you don't get, the sales calls that don't go well, the mistakes you make, the team member turnover, like all that stuff. Yeah.

And I think a lot of people don't do things or don't persist with things, projects, career changes, hobbies, relationships, whatever. Because it's hard. And they we include myself in this view the hard stuff as a problem. Oh, it's not working. I must be doing something wrong. I shouldn't be feeling this pain, suffering. I'm sure there's a line somewhere where you don't want to be hitting your head against the wall, but also what you're normalizing, and I think what you're validating through your writings and through your vulnerability is that the struggle is a part of any life, of any project, of anything worth doing.

Well, I appreciate you saying that, and yes, thank you. The struggle's real and you're not alone in it. And also, I mean, maybe it's the mark of a personal essayist and a coach and a coachee. I want to take full responsibility. And always in my writing, like, it's on me. Here's what I did wrong, here's how I'm flawed. And at the same time to somehow deliver the message that it's not just you, you being whoever's reading or even listening to this, like, we're all flawed. I always think, oh, I'm a bad business owner. And the business police, they just shifted off. The personal development police that you and I talked about many episodes ago. And when we did the part, psychology stuff, that was my thought starter. Do you have one that was fresh for today before we open it up for Q and A?

Mine was inspired by Jack's question, and I won't ask the question. I can save that for Jack to ask later. Live. It got me thinking about how do we know what to do? Like, how do we know which career is right? Or how do we know when to make a change, when something's not right? How do we know when to. Like you've been in a process, Jenny, of letting go of things. How do we know when to let go of something? How do we know Just that experience, which is so present in the work that I do around helping people make career changes, there's that point, at some point in the process of knowing or knowing enough about what somebody wants to do or what feels right in order to take action on it. So that was my thought starter, was how do we know? And maybe the question to you is, in these recent several, I think, significant decisions you've been making about what to stop doing, what to let go of, what to start doing, how have you arrived at clarity? How have you arrived at that moment of knowing?

We'll be right back just after this.

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I usually get there in a messy way in the sense that I start becoming I'm not my best self. And what I mean by that is I know I'm getting tired or burnt out or I need to recharge when I start resenting text messages or emails, like when it stops going from loving people who want to see how I'm doing and becomes. I've described it before, even on this podcast, as like people firing arrows into my zone, you know, and they're like, piercing my bubble and they're intruding and okay, so once I get real cranky about something like that, I know I need a break. But to give you an example, on the professional side, if I don't listen to the signals when they're more subtle, it will reach a point where I feel like I'm crawling out of my skin. And I had that recently where I was a guest on a podcast and there's no way for the host to have known that I'm reaching this stage. So it's on me. But before we hit record, they said, is there anything you don't want to talk about? I said, well, the one thing I'd love to just not talk about working at Google or leaving Google. I've been talking about that for 12 and a half years now. So just anything but that. What do you think we spent the hour on? What's it like working at Google? How did you know when it was time to leave Google? What was it like leaving Google? Again, it's not their fault, and that's probably the premise of their show. Maybe I could have done a better job communicating it, but within 15 minutes of this interview starting, I was crawling out of my skin, like for the, umpteenth, time, after 12 years, I'm now just rehashing the same stories and they are part of my story. But that feeling of being so done and not being able to show up in a graceful way. I did my best, but that lets me know. Maybe I should take a break. Maybe that feeling means don't be a guest for a while. Like pause saying yes to those. Give it some space. Because I do want to be gracious and be able to say yes to interviews and have people ask whatever they want. Just like we're doing in this live taping. But also like there comes a point where when you're done, you're done and you know it and you feel it, you're just ready to move on. So that was nice. Recent how I knew how about you just to reflect.

What I hear you saying is it was a very embodied experience. A lot of sensations, feelings, emotions in your body, strong ones giving you information. I'm done. That is true for me as well, and true for a lot of people. As I witnessed people progressing through this career pathfinding process, there's a feeling that often people start with of like, ugh, yuck. I can't do my current career any longer. I've tried Something's gotta give. Call it that doneness. But then as they progress through, I'll notice commonly, and I'll answer about myself in a second as well. But to follow this thread, I'll notice commonly that people are trying to decide between a few different options in their career. And I will always encourage go explore if you can. Go do the thing. Have an actual experience. Informational interviews are great, but doing the thing, like getting your hands into it, so to speak. There's nothing like the actual experience of something to communicate data in millions of data points. From that embodied experience, your body knows your body feels something. Either an excitement for something or some version of no, I don't want to do this. And my encouragement often is to go with the thing that truly feels exciting. Like if I think about the greatest decisions I've made in life, I've been moved by genuine excitement. Not I should do this thing. Not this thing will bring me that other thing that I want later on. Best decision had been moved by deep resonant I want this thing. Whatever that feeling is in my body, I want this thing. I'm excited about this thing. Walking into a place to live and feeling like, wow, I want to live here. Not oh, you know, I like the kitchen, but I don't like the, you know, if I Hear myself saying that I'm like, move on, keep looking, Wait. Wait for the excitement. So I found that to be true in my life. Wait for the excitement. Keep exploring, Try more things. Be more patient. Don't force the decision unless you have to.

I love that I've called that put yourself in the path of pivot, those experiments, but specifically what you said of the embodied sense, put yourself in the room. When I was thinking of going to grad school for seminary at Union Theological Seminary, I went and attended a random lecture just to sit in the room that it was held in. I think it was in a little church, I don't know. But, like, I did get a physical sensation, like being on campus or being in that room at the orientation session and looking for houses or apartments is such a good example too. I remember Michael and I, we looked at countless places. Most of them were downtown. One of them, the house was great, but the broker, flashed us this, like, evil micro expression right at the end. Like he was just putting on such a show for us. It was so fake, and it's like his mask fell. For just a split second. Michael and I just said, nope, that place is out like bad vibes. We didn't care if it was from the broker or from some aspect of the place, but it's just such a great point that sometimes your mind doesn't know. You need to go there, be there, experience it.

When I changed my first, actually my one and only career change from management consulting to coaching, when I first enrolled in the coaching training program, I remember only paying for the first weekend. You could pay for the whole thing and go all in, or you could only pay for the first sort of weekend intro training. And I did that because I wasn't sure if I wanted to do it or not. And it was part of that exploration of getting my hands dirty. And soon enough, as soon as I was there, I was like, okay, this is me. This is what I've been looking for. But I had to feel it, I had to touch it to know for myself. I couldn't know based on being a coaching client, talking to coaches, exploring other careers. It's like I had to actually touch it, try it, be there.

I had the same experience. I had to go to an orientation session and talk to someone who had been through their full training. And that someone was. You remember, that was our first call. I was like, adrian, what is this? How was your experience? Yeah, that was back in the day. That was like 2008, if not 07, that we connected. Wow. Yeah. You were the one that was like, I loved it. It's worth it. Go for it.

Yeah. I was so put off by the term life coaching.

Oh, my gosh. Still to this day, yes, I know.

That hasn't changed, but I just remember feeling like insulted or something by the term. My mom suggested it. No way. Mom, no.

Well, my class laughed at me because I was in my early 20s and I think I told this story once. But the fellow students, because I too went to an orientation. No commitment. I hadn't paid for anything. I'm like, oh my God, these are my people. It's my business. Books come to life. People asking like, what are your dreams? What do you do for fun? It was just the opposite of small talk. But in my class, they laughed at me like, what are you doing being a life coach? What do you know about life in your early 20s? And I gotta say, I. I don't blame them because if I'm looking back, if it was me now and I saw 22 year olds going through coach training, I might also have some questions. But it does teach you very valid skills for facilitating other people's thinking. It's not actually about giving advice. So true. Just allow the record to state that. Well, thank you, Adrian, for the great prompt. Let's open it up to questions now. So before we go to our first question, we have to give a shout out to Adam Zach, who couldn't be here. He's under the weather. I know he really wanted to be. So Adam, this first non question goes out to you to just say hi and you're here with us in spirit. Okay. Over to you, Jack.

Thank you. Such great conversation. That's kind of already answering my question, so I really appreciate that. I'm Jacqueline Fish. So my question, how do you know if you truly need to pivot or if you're chasing shiny objects? I get the feeling in the body. I totally appreciate that. What do you do when there is excitement in all the places and you're trying to decide? This is exciting. I want to go here and. Oh, but I'm excited about this other thing. I'm very curious your process for this.

Thank you, Jack. And we should point out Jack has a great substack, the Intuitive Writing School and just launched her most recent book, Intuitive Writing. Remind us the exact title.

Yes, Intuitive Writing. The remedy for writer's block and the secret to authentic Communication.

Amazing. I will put that in the show notes. So, Adrian, I'm going to go to you first.

Thank you, Jack. I love this question. You posted it on LinkedIn. And I've been thinking about it and excited to go back and forth with you, live around it. So thanks for bringing it. What I would say first is to possibly take a break from looking at the shiny objects and trying to assess or determine which one maybe you want to pick up and try a little bit. So when I say take a break, what I mean is take a break from that and come back to who you are. So do a little sort of internal self discovery. You probably won't find anything entirely new. But I think the act of reflecting on questions like who am I? What are my gifts? What's my purpose? To the extent that you know it, you don't have to have it perfectly defined for that to still be a useful inquiry. What matters to me? What am I passionate about? What are my needs? Any of these questions, spending some time reflecting on them can help you sort of re clarify who you really are and what really matters to you. And I think that's useful when trying to figure out whether to pivot and what to do. Because in my philosophy and in my experience, success and fulfillment in work comes from being who you are in that thing. So I see work very much as an expression of who you are. And the more that you're clear on in real time and connected to, you know, what are my gifts, what are my passions, what am I here to do? Think the more that can inform which of those shiny objects you go to and that you're looking for alignment with those shiny objects as well as that feeling of excitement. But what I hear you saying is they all feel exciting. So one thing you could do to try to get a little bit more concrete about which way to go, you could write out like your top three gifts, top three passions, top three needs, as well as your purpose. And then you could do an assessment of each of those shiny objects, of each thing you're considering investing more time in. You could assess how well does it align with these gifts? 0 to 10, these passions, 0 to 10, these needs, 0 to 10, the sense I have of my purpose, 0 to 10. And you get a total for each path based on that assessment. That you could compare, you know, path A or shiny object A to B to C, et cetera. It's not that you'd automatically go with the one that has the highest number, but going through this type of exercise might produce a bit more clarity about which one is most you and therefore likely to be most fulfill it. So that's an initial thought. I don't know, Jenny if you want to hear from Jack, how that resonates, what follow up questions she has, or if you want to offer something as.

Well, let's just add that Scott wrote in the chat, maybe shiny experiences is a positive. Have fun with them all. You kind of read my mind, Scott, because I was thinking it is such a great feeling when you have so many shiny objects that are exciting to you. And I would say that's the mark of a successful pivot, is that you have cleared enough out that your energy is so full around all these ideas. So for one, I just want to celebrate you, Jack, that the way you're running your business and the way you're running your projects has created this surfeit of opportunity and energy and yeah, that enthusiasm. Because I know deeply what it feels like when everything feels lackluster or overwhelming or like it's stagnating. Of course, this is almost just cliche to reference, but Julia Cameron's artist way talks about artist dates. And part of the free time ethos, which I know you know well, is just leaving a lot of margin in the calendar in your projects. And I wonder, like, is there any harm in creating artist date Fridays or some entire day of the week that is fully dedicated to pursuing the shiny things? And I guess if the question is that you do have to pick one, like, the nature of these projects is that you can't do them all at once. Maybe, like Adrian said, maybe there is a way to experiment or have some just open play time. It's like Friday is recess day in the business and the creative projects and you play and play. And then of course, I think at some point, if it is really a question, because I know some people experience this where, like, I actually do need to pick one, I can't do them all. They just don't work like that. Seeing then and only then after you've had some play time, what does align best with your goals? Like what has the biggest cost in terms of time, energy, money. And then also what could produce the best outcome. And then we know there's tangible metrics, like for a podcast, how many downloads, but then there's the intrinsic benefits or the intangible, like, oh, I would be meeting great people to the point where even if nobody listened to nobody downloaded a single episode, I would still gain so much from pursuing this. So I would think about which of the shiny opportunities has the most upside, no matter the tangible results.

Thank you. A few things came up. First, you touched on Adrienne alignment and that was like the word. It's like, yes, it's alignment. When it's aligned, that is the path. And Scott's comment, shiny experiences is a positive thing. Have fun with them all. Yes, I always have lots of shiny experiences going on at all times. And I also appreciate the benefit of focus. I know if I were to focus on one, one could be so much better than a bunch of, okay, mediocre things. So dancing with that plus Julia Cameron, of all her advice artist dates is the hardest thing for me to actually do. But I get it and I'm really good at blocking time on my calendar. So experimenting with even if it's an hour on Friday, just dabbling, playing down that road.

I'm also curious because you teach intuitive writing, how would you answer this question through the lens of intuition if you were working with one of your clients?

I'd start with the body, which is just what you said. I would also recommend someone turn to morning pages to start exploring each of the options. I'd also tell them to weigh each one. Like imagine you picked one. Now how does that feel? If you instant dread, you know that that's not the one for you. And even ticking one and then letting yourself pivot. So it's that permission. Even if you chase a shiny object, you know that by taking action on it, you'll get the information you need. Whether keep going or nope, pivot again. Pivoting can be tiring.

Oh yeah, Jack, following what you said about imagine, you pick one and notice how you feel. One of the activities that I've seen to be really useful for clients, and it's in my online course in the module that's all about claiming your path, kind of choosing which career is right, trying to get that final bit of clarity. So it's to imagine yourself several years in the future, let's say five years in the future, on any of the paths that you're seriously considering and writing yourself a day in the life letter, like in present tense. So you're imagining yourself there doing that thing, be it coaching or being a physician or whatever it may be, and you're describing in as much detail as you can muster what that day is like, what you're doing, how you're feeling, what your life is like in the present tense, and the act of doing that for a few different career paths or decisions that you're making. It could be, do I move to, you know, New York City or Boston or whatever it is. But that act of imagining yourself there and writing about it and then having multiple different letters then to reflect On I've seen that be the kind of the final sliver ray of light clarity that somebody needs to make a decision.

Thank you Jack for kicking us off with such a great question. Let's go to Scott next.

Thanks, Jenny. I left a corporate career to go into sports coaching full time. And one of the things that I left the corporate career for was because the intensity of success measurement when perhaps some of those success measures don't really align to your own personal values was quite tough. So you believe you've done a good job for people. You are teams and things. But maybe the corporation has a slightly different view. So then moving to work for myself, I find that although it was a positive to move away from those, I actually miss them somewhat. So I can get good feedback from clients. But I've had some pretty harsh after some alcohol consumed by family gave me their thoughts about my decision to move on from corporate and it wasn't very supportive. So there's something that still exists where I'm looking for some kind of external recognition more than the people who are paying me to coach them. And I struggle with that sometimes because I'm like, well, I'm doing this for me. I don't care about the other opinions. I want to be self employed. I want to coach and have that relationship with the individuals. Yet I know actually when I've been prodded at a social event by family and they've been pretty harsh, why are you messing around with that you like a good job? That something isn't sitting comfortable there and I'm not quite sure what it is and whether I should be doing something to, I don't know, ignore it, justify it back to those other people. Whether actually there is something there and I'm not convinced myself in the career choice or there's another success measure because financially as well that was a big part of my own corporate world. And you could see very easily when you're being successful because you get a paycheck and you don't. Five years of coaching for there's something sitting where I'm like, oh, am I successful or not? Who says I am? Me, my family, others, clients that don't know there's something niggles at me. So I'd love to hear some thoughts on how do you know if you're any good?

Oh my gosh, I have so much I could say and ask. I want to give Adrian a chance first. You have anything top of mind.

Thank you, Scott. I love the vulnerability. Your honesty where I go is not a direct answer to Your question, but the part of what you shared that I felt would be, I was most curious to explore more with you is the part that feels uncomfortable in you. It's like, yes, people are going to say what they say and somebody could say, you're doing amazing. And somebody else could say, what are you, crazy? So the part that I'm curious about is the discomfort in you, the part that feels unsettled in you and to understand more about what's there, because I think that will inform how you respond, what you do. For example, it may be that there's something deep, real, some unfulfillment, lack of fulfillment still in this path that informs how you evolve your career as a coach. It really is important to you to have some more recognition. And so you write a book or you do something else that would bring some of that. And that's a very healthy motivation that is a part of your purpose. It's like some deep part of yourself urging you towards the thing that will bring more fulfillment to you and more benefit to the world. And that's great. Or maybe it's the part of you that feels insecure and is not going to feel fulfilled or worthy regardless of however much outward success you have. And then that would not be a great reason to go and write the books or do the this, that or the other thing. If you're trying to fill that hungry ghost that I think we all have inside. It's a long way of rambling various explanations. But to come back to my original sort of question for you, which you may or may not be able to answer now, is tell me more. What's up with that discomfort unsettledness inside of you?

The discomfort comes, I think, two things. One is financial and that independently what I earned is now from how I've scaled the business because it's not scaled enough. I find it hard that as an individual coach, you're limited by the number of clients you can have and then the rates per client. So something has to evolve there in the business model. So there's an uncomfortableness with the financial level it's at just now. There still needs to be some other growth because as great as clients are who I'm working with, I think there's something else amongst the clients because the challenges are new challenges now. They're great on an individual basis, but they're similar.

It's age group athletes I'm working with, they've got similar challenges around time and things. And I'm looking for something more. And part of that I think is also recognition, whether it's at a world class level.

Where other people can understand what you do. I think in the coaching world is quite a. You mentioned Adrian about the word life coach. So even on the sports coach, the first thing you're asked is who are the clients you're working with? And there's a judgment. Then I think externally is are you any good based on the clients you're working with? There's something else there that I'm not setting that with client base.

And if you think about what you would feel fulfilled by or what you would define as success for you, and that it brings that settled feeling that you don't have fully right now that you're looking for, what would success look like for you in this business?

And I'll just add an inquiry because maybe, Scott, these are ones to sit with. I just want you to know that I really want to second what Adrian said. Just the vulnerability of being in business on yourself, by yourself, that was like maybe a Freudian slip on yourself, by yourself, with yourself. But no, it is vulnerable. Especially five years where four of which have been a pandemic. You left a corporate job. That took a lot of courage. I'm 12 and a half years in and people still say to me, well, when will you just go get a job? So I guess the good news and the bad news is that the family members who love you and worry about you and have a value system based primarily around security, that question may never change. You just get more confident at answering it. And you also get more confident knowing that even if my bank account balance is at zero, I know I'm doing what I'm meant to be doing and that that helps carry you through the times where you do get more insecure because maybe you have a lull in clients or the client results aren't stellar. I could imagine with sports there's real numbers, tangible numbers attached to your clients and to their results. So that's kind of nerve wracking too. So I love Adrian's question and just this inquiry to sit with is how will you define success and what do you consider success, no matter what anyone else has to say about it? So like, I still, and I feel I'm probably this year 2023 at peak insecurity of what I know about life and business. And I really mean that. It's probably one of my all time peaks of my life. But I still am holding so tightly to the container that that insecurity is within, which is running my own business. And I Think you can feel it in your bones when you know, okay, I am meant to be doing this and I just. Of course you're not going to figure it all out, all the details, how to position yourself overnight. That takes time. And it's always changing because as soon as you do have it figured out, then you want to pivot, then there's a new direction. The last thing I'll put in the show notes, a conversation with Jay Acunzo. I love how he talks about identifying your even more meaningful metrics, your emms. So there's revenue in the business. I mean, you could pick your three dashboard true metrics. What keeps the car moving down the road? Do you have enough gas in the tank? Is the engine okay? Do you have enough oil? Are the tires blown up? Like, what are those four things that just let you know you are on track. So it could be revenue, it could be profit, it could be how much free time you have. Pick the ones that matter to you, not to your family. But also, don't be afraid to look at the even more meaningful metrics of how your clients thank you or the day you see them cross the finish line at a big race. Just the things that kind of speak to your heart, that are going to keep you moving and keep you motivated even when the hardcore numbers are not quite where you want them to be.

Thank you. Thanks. It's really helpful.

Yeah, thanks for the great question.

We'll be right back just after this.

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Okay, let's go. To Marvia, over to you.

Hello. Thank you for taking my question. I feel like you sort of answered some of my questions from Jack and Scott. God, I'm an educator and a school administrator and I've been one for 10 plus years and I've just been in the field of education for 20 some odd years. And unless you've had your head buried in the sand, I'm sure you've all seen the massive migration of people leaving the teaching profession for all kinds of reasons. I'm not leaving the profession anytime soon. But I do want to pivot. But because I've been in it for so long, I don't even know where to start. So whether it's education or something else, how do you start the pivot if you've been doing the same thing for a very, very long time? Like, my brain is in a rut and I don't even know how to unwrap myself. Like, I like to do creative things. I like writing. I like, kind of like Jack said, all the shiny objects. I love all the shiny objects. But I want to move toward one that could be like, oh, this could turn into something that could have some positive financial things that could help me move into other things that are more aligned to what I want to do. It's just a struggle of how do I even start that because I've only done this one thing my entire career. How do I even find the pivot and lean into the pivot? And I'm also getting older. I don't feel like I have a lot of time to explore all the things out there. So if you're that kind of person, like, what would you recommend? Where would be a good starting?

Thank you, Marvia, for asking. And again, just being vulnerable and open, sharing where you're at. I love how you said, how do you un rut yourself so good. I've never heard it put that way before. And I know that feeling so well. Where you're in a rut. One thing that helps me, I know that I have a hard time getting inspired or clear at all when I'm in that place. And it usually means that I need to start cutting things out, saying no. So I need to clear up real time, but also just emotional bandwidth. And that could be anything from I'm saying no to plans with friends for the next three weeks, unless it's the opposite and that energizes you. Or even this year I had a policy for a little while like, I'm not gonna do late dinners. That's a no, for me, I will do grandma style early bird starting at 5pm or no, I will ask to do coffee instead. But starting to just almost as if you're pruning a rose bush. What can you cut? Like the first step is kind of cutting. And I'm not a gardener, although my grandma is an avid gardener. And they will tell you you have to cut sometimes even good roses in order for the really beautiful ones to flourish. There's only so many resources on the bush and I know we want to have an abundance mentality like it's all possible, but when I'm really in a rut, I just need to start kind of being a little ruthless about cutting things out to even clear the energetic space to let new ideas in and new solutions. How about you, Adrian?

I think that's a great, great place to start. It's like if I want to say yes to exploring a pivot, what do I need to say no to? I'd add to that on a practical level in terms of getting ideas. Marvia, what you could do is do a combination of inner and outer exploring. It's similar to what I said earlier, but you'd be doing the inner exploration first. Simplest way to do that is like, what am I good at and what do I love to do? And then think about where does that point you towards what kind of careers? And you can start with what you know. I hear you about having been in one field and not knowing what else is possible. But you may surprise yourself if you say, okay, I know I'm good at this and I know I like doing these things. What are all the careers I could imagine that would combine these two and write out a list and see where that gets you. Or you could go to ChatGPT or Bard and say, okay, I'm good at this and I'm passionate about this, or what careers are a good fit for me based on my creativity and problem solving skills. And you get a list and you filter through it and see the ones that are most exciting to you. And then big next step is talk to people that are working in that field or as close as you can get. Do an informational interview, ask them to have coffee, could be in person or virtual, whatever, but start talking to people that are doing work that aligns with what you like to do and what you're good at. And if you have a handful of those conversations over months, even years, you know, you'll start to get a sense of what those people are doing. You can also ask them what other careers are similar to yours or, you know, I know I really like this, and I know I'm good at this. What careers in your field do you think would be a good fit for me? So talking to people, really great way to branch out beyond the field that you've been in and start getting new ideas about careers.

Also love podcasts for this reason. Who excites you? Like what? People that exist in the world. I'll tell you my favorite celebrity profile writer. What a random thing. When did I get attracted to celebrity profiles? Because I read Taffy Brodesser Ackner's. I'm probably butchering her name. I read her piece on Gwyneth Paltrow from a couple years ago. Like, who is this writer? And she just recently did one on Taylor Swift. She's done Bradley Cooper. I'm going to put the link to her website that has all her profiles. Not only am I down a rabbit hole reading profiles, I'm looking for every single podcast. Spotify has a really good search feature that Taffy has been on, specifically talking about craft. How does she think about the writing? How does she interview the subjects? And I would just encourage you to also follow your nose and follow your ears of people who resonate with you. Find them on podcasts, like, hear what they have to say. You know, they say, oh, you're the five people you surround yourself with. I don't know, sometimes that phrase really annoys me. But if it counts to surround yourself with podcast guests on other people's podcasts, I'm rich every day with who I listen to and get inspired by. And so that could be a way to get energized and hear how people think and how they approach the world, even if you don't have direct access to them. Marvia, do you want to respond? Anything you want to say before we just see if there's any final questions?

Not so much a final question, but a thank you to both you and Adrienne. You gave me some different ways of thinking. And like one of you, I don't remember which one of you had said, coaches facilitate thinking. And in education, when we talk about coaching, it's really more changing behavior. But how do you change behavior if you're not changing or influencing or whatever you want to call it with thinking. So you've helped me to shift my thinking even with something as simple as use ChatGPT, because that helps it not be so brain intensive, because my brain is so focused on doing the task in front of me. So leveraging those things and saying no to things. I need to start doing that and then taking rabbit trails. Because sometimes on the rabbit trail, you find an answer you didn't even know you wanted. So thank you so much.

You got it.

We've got roses, rabbit trails, GPT. We have all the whole bench. Claudia asks, I have a similar question, but from a different perspective. How do you unwrap yourself if you've already cut out almost everything and have given yourself plenty of time to pause, including a sabbatical and traveling? How do you actively start planting seeds for what's coming next and putting yourself out there more?

Well, I still think what I said earlier about do the inner exploration, what are you good at? What do you love? Follow those threads, see what careers or like Jenny said, what people are doing, work that you admire, that inspires you, and start investigating in those directions. But to add something new, I think what comes up for me is a client that I worked with a number of years ago who would have said exactly this in his beginning sessions with me. I've traveled, I've taken a sabbatical. I've seen career coaches and counselors in the past. Nothing's worked for me. I don't know what's up. And he wasn't working at the time, so also plenty of time to explore. And we went through my process that I always guide people through. And he landed on being a realtor as the career path that he was most excited about, that he thought was right for him. And he was supposed to go and take the exam or study or the certification course. I don't remember what exactly it was, but he wasn't taking the very clear action next step to move forward on this path. And he came back and he's like. I was like, did you do it? He said, no. And I was like, okay, so you must have a really good reason for not doing this. Why are you not doing this? He was like, well, I don't really want to do it. I was like, okay, you know, it's not what you want to hear as a coach, but it was like, okay, fair. You don't want to do this. This is the thing that we landed on. After months of exploring and dozens of hours of him doing work around all of this, I was like, well, what do you really want to do? If you could do anything you wanted to do, if you didn't limit yourself by what you thought was practical or feasible, if you really just let yourself follow the dream, follow the thing that you're most excited about, and maybe it's something that freaks you out. In fact, it probably is. It's something you're probably afraid to do because you fail at it or it won't work out for one reason or another. People think you're crazy or whatever it is. What's that secret dream that you've been kind of holding on to that you haven't let yourself really hear yet? And he's like, well, if I could do anything, I would buy properties. I wouldn't want to sell other people's. I would want to buy them myself and develop them, rehab them. And I was like, okay, well there it is, that's your thing. And he's like, yeah, but I'm totally freaked out. Well, sure, that makes sense. You got to put up a lot of money. You've never done it. Huge risk if you don't succeed at this. But then we were talking about the real thing that he wanted to do. And we could work through those fears and explore them both psychologically and practically. How do you reduce the risk, et cetera, as well as just psychologically exploring the fear of failure and what that would mean and not mean and so on and so forth. So what I think of Claudia in response to your question, this may not be the truth, the solution for you, but for what it's worth, for you and others listening, if you've tried a lot of different things, if you've taken the time to explore and you're still not coming up with something, I would ask you some version of the question like what's the secret dream? What's the thing that you're too scared for? Good reason to admit to yourself that you really want to do and write about that. And it may not be one thing, it may be several. But if you start writing on that prompt, I'd be very curious what initial ideas you might be able to follow and then refine and get other ideas, or that that one idea just does come popping through and you can follow it.

That is so juicy. What's the secret dream? We were talking about being nerve sighted before we hit record. Adrian's four year old daughter came up with it. I've heard it from my friend Alex Marvia says, ask the scary questions. What's the secret dream? I just love that we could all take that as an inquiry. Elise Loonan wrote in a blog post, what is it that you really, really want? Not what do you want? Which is a very powerful coaching question in and of itself. What do you really want? Okay, let's go to a third time. What do you really, really want. And maybe the only thing I would add to that is if I had done all that and I was having trouble unreading myself. Our new verb. I would keep two things in mind. One, my favorite Trevor hall song. And I did faint when he agreed to be a guest on the Pivot pod. That will go in the show notes too. One of my favorite all time songs.

For real?

You actually.

Oh, for real. And I did just name drop that into our episode.

Amazing.

No, because I literally, I truly, truly could barely breathe. And not only that, then his team, because I think Isabel had listened to the Pivot podcast. Anyway, they arranged for me to meet him before his concert in Brooklyn backstage. I died.

I died.

It's just a wonder I'm still here today. So the song is called you can't rush your healing. And it's so beautiful, it will speak to you on a soul level. And I would also say sometimes it's so frustrating I'm in it now. You can't rush your pivoting. We could maybe get him to sing it slightly different version that I remember in 2013. This made it into one of my keynote speeches was I was so frustrated. I did all the things. I meditated. I made my gratitude list. I went to yoga, I did pilates, I got enough sleep, I drank enough water. I add the green juice. Enough already. I was so pissed. So frustrated. I did all the things and I was still floating. And I wasn't just being hard on myself. I truly still felt like I was in that liminal state. And certainly reading Outrageous Openness is one of the things that started to just help me lighten up a bit and surrender more. And the other thing is sometimes when I'm in that place, I need to just do something. Jack mentioned this earlier in Pivot, I say decisions are data. There might not be the answer, some big thing in blinking lights, but can you start doing small things? And you're probably already doing that, Claudia. So I hesitate to even say it, but I guess I've just found that surrendering the whole thing and almost, not in a futile way, but just giving up. Like, okay, universe, I surrender. And again, I'm in it now, 10 years later, I'm just in it again, that I feel like my mind thinks this should be over already or I should be through the goose day, as Penny and I would call it, the liminal state already. And it might just in reality, it ends up taking three to four times longer than my mind ever thinks that it should. It's just how it is for me. I don't know if it ends up that way for other people, but for some reason I always return to a favorite quote from Khalil Gibran, who said, the deeper the sorrow carves, the more joy your cup can hold. And in these moments I feel that we're being carved, whether as a business owner to Scott's question, whether Marvia, Claudia, Jack, like all of us, it's a crucible we're in and certainly the last four years have been that. And just the deeper the uncertainty carves and the sorrow and the questioning, the more joy our cups can hold.

Beautiful.

Well, I think that brings us to the end of this episode. Adrian, is there anything you want to say?

I want to say thank you to the live guests. So fun to have you here. Brought such a good, fresh, vibrant energy. So thanks for being here. And of course to everybody listening, we appreciate your presence too.

I second that. It's so fun doing this. Thank you for those of you who showed up live. And Adrienne and I really hope to do another one in the not too distant future. So keep an eye out on Pivot List. You can subscribe at pivotlist. Substack. Com. We'll also put the links to Adrian's Career Pathfinder course in the show notes because if you use promo code Pivot, you get a nice discount on that and he has really honed those materials over the last decade plus and it's a brilliant way to kind of work through this with other people.

Thank you so much Jenny.

Thank you so much Adrian. Thanks everybody for listening.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always?

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