355: Building a Brand Strategy from Scratch with Adam Chaloeicheep — Free Time Crossover (Part One)

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There is actually a metaverse that is forming. You know, Web two is about me, Web three is about we. So you know, you got to think about like all these different intersections of how your brand's going to grow and stuff like that. And so I actually think brand is going to become even more important so you don't get so diluted and you don't get ripped off and you make sure that what you're doing is going to be very unique to what problem and what you are solving in the world.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Welcome back Pivoters. I am very excited to be bringing you two crossover episodes from the Free Time podcast for this episode, 355 and next week as well 356. These are fun conversations that I've had with one of my longest time business besties, Adam Choloya Cheep. He and I are now celebrating over a decade of friendship and business collaborations and I just thought you would get a lot out of these episodes, especially if you're thinking about rebranding or launching something new in the new year. Adam was one of the very first guests here on the Pivot podcast back in 2015. In episode 12 he was talking about bouncing back from zero from the belly of the Pivot beast. Put the link to that episode in the show notes and you can all laugh at my early days as an interviewer. I just love these conversations about what really goes into creating a visual voice for your business or your creative projects. I highly encourage you to check out Together Agency's substack called Rebrand and Adam's co founder Marisol Dahl has another brilliant substack called Mindbrew. I'll be sure to put those in the show notes and if you want to check out their portfolio including the free time brand overview of everything we did together, visit GoTogether Agency that's GoTogether Agency. Without further ado, let's jump into part one.

We have a very special guest today, my great friend Adam Chloiacip. He is like a brother from another mother we met in 2012. He is a creative business leader with over a decade of experience in a variety of startups. Startup areas including product and service concepting, building teams, operations and the crux of our professional work together has been brand strategy. He and his team together agency are behind every big brand I have ever launched into the world. Adam was the one who taught me what brand even is with my project. Jennyblake me. All the visuals, all the strategy behind pivot, all the diagrams and now free time. So everything that you see here on the podcast, on the website to the book jacket, Adam and his team are behind it. I am quoted on their website as saying I do not trust my projects in anyone else's hands. With that Adam, welcome to the show.

Amazing. Thank you for having me. Jenny.

I'm excited to go behind the brand today. There seem to be three paths that one could take. Some go straight to 99designs. And I talked about this a little bit in episode five with Emily Hayward from Red Antler who you were so generous to put on my radar. Okay, so let's go. There's 99 designs. Put up a call or upwork for a logo and get something that often resembles clipart but sometimes it can be really well done. The middle path is hiring sort of like a low key graphic designer, let's say when they think okay, I need to refresh my brand and then maybe a third path is really going all in and spending what feels like a lot of money to some small business owners, myself included. But getting the full red carpet brand strategy, that's much, much deeper and involving more thought partnership than the first two options. Sometimes people don't know which path to take and when. And I know I brought this up with Emily, but I'd love to hear you say the path that you do, what you work with business owners on, who is it for and how do we get over the fear of spending so much money on something even though we can know it's really important and give us a range too of pricing just to get people an idea.

The level of branding services that we do might seem upfront expensive, but if branding is done correctly and thoughtfully, this should be the start of a multi decade journey for this company in this brand. So you have to look at the ROI over the long term and not just in the short term. And that's really, I think, where it turns into. We work with individuals, organizations and startups who are all in. You've got to really be ready to jump in and make sure that you're going to develop your internal brand strategy and your external voice. So when you're ready to go out there, you can shout it from the mountaintops and be extremely proud. The people that we work with, they have to have that mindset and they got to be really ready to do the work. Pricing, it could vary. We try to work with different levels of organization. So if it's a founding team that we really believe in, we will set up an equity and a cash play. If it is someone who is maybe doing just like kind of consulting and there's not really an equity play into that and it's more of just helping them get their services rounded out and all the materials, but also helping them really understand.

What'S their unique differentiator, what's their special sauce, if you will. Those can range anywhere from like 50 to 60,000. And then when we're actually working with the bigger organizations or even in the startup world, that can be anywhere from like 100 up to 200,000. But that also, that isn't just brand and brand strategy because we also will take what we've developed through our processes and we will apply that to great digital experience. What sales materials do they need? Is there a pop up shop experience? So we will not just help you create that brand, but we are going to help you think about how to activate it in in the world.

You and your team give a lot of input on the product itself too in this process. I think sometimes people think about brand in terms of what you see, the visuals, and maybe every now and then a punchy brand statement. In my experience of working with you all several times now, half of it is conceptual. Leading up to any of those steps. Can you let people in behind the scenes a little bit about what is going on before you and the team even start creating the look and feel of a brand? What is important in terms of defining it?

It's a ton of work. And so. And I appreciate you bringing that up because when you're a strategic LED design firm, you know, I think a lot of people out there want to use that and make it a cliche term and be like, oh, we're thinking about the future and planning that out, but we are really trying to think about that architecture, what is what. So and that's when we say that.

When we are talking to potential new clients, and new partners and stuff like that. We tell them like, we are your strategic brand design, product and advisor in one. We only take on a select amount of clients every year because we put ourselves almost like we are part of the organization. We become very empathetic towards what you are building and what you are doing. And that's not just, you know, so we don't want to just put like kind of lipstick on a pig here because there are a lot of great artists and designers out there that can make something look good, no doubt. And in today's world, they're kind of coming out of all these great schools across the nation, across the world. And so, you know, you can make something look cool, but for it to have meaning and for it to stick and for it to be authentic, from the leadership to the leadership of that company or organization to the demographic they're going after, that's where that like secret sauce is and what you're talking about. So our processes, you know, in that, in that range. So, you know, we kind of call like therapy a little bit, we call brand therapy because we need to dive into understanding what you're doing and why you're doing it and why does this matter? And we like to be people who challenge you on that mission. Because a lot of times I think, as when you're starting or when you're starting something new or you are starting a new company, you know, you are pumped up and you are psyched and you are on adrenaline, you think this is going to change the world and that's great to have that. But you also need to have a team or have individuals who are going to challenge you on that, to make sure that you're thinking about all the nooks and crannies of that, of not just what you're building, but like how you're saying it and how you're going to express that in the world, who you're really serving. So our processes range from doing, you know, we'll do deep interviews, multiple interviews with the stakeholders, with the people you're talking to, who, the clients you're trying to serve. We will dive into a deep competitive analysis of what's going on. We'll kind of think of, we'll do brand service as you know, that will be very tailored and individualized to who you are. Because we want to also make sure that your personality is coming out through the brand and everything that we are creating as well.

To give listeners an idea. In the brand survey, there were such thought provoking questions like, what could you Talk about and never get sick of what makes you angry. Who do you see as competitors in this space? I had no clue before I met Adam and his team and they've evolved over the last decade as well. But I didn't know the first thing. I honestly thought that you go hire someone to design a logo. A logo, an icon. That's it. I literally, that is what brand meant to me before I met you. So when we did this last round for free time, I got a 15 page PDF on strategy. That was before we did a single visual. So it had the business landscape target challenge solution. We talked about 10,000 foot view of what I was creating you guys put together. And by the way, Adam's team and Marisol, who we worked with for many years within JPE is the co founder of Together, which is just such a cool ongoing twist and turn of our many relationships. We did value statements. We did what differentiates the brand, brand personality. A little bit of a mood board there. The big creative brand idea. I had not synthesized any of this. Freetime was started as a download that I got while walking. I then ran it by Adam. Am I crazy to go this direction or do you like it? And next thing I know, I'm hiring you and your team, Adam. I just want to give listeners some specifics here when we talk about strategy that I don't know about any of you listening, but I will read business books and I'll know that these are good things to do and to write down, but me writing it down by myself does not push them forward, you know, and I think it took you and your team asking a bunch of follow up questions and pushing and even us debating, like even when you somebody would say something, I go, no, that's not it at all. You know, this is what free time is. That was really helpful.

So you're right. So we are breaking things down into macro and micro areas, you know, and we are trying to think about variations of how you can speak about the business. You know, just so you're talking about the targets, the challenges, the solutions, the support. We're thinking about the brand differentiators and really truly what those mean. We want to come up with value statements, but we don't just come up with value statements. We want mic drop statements. We want things that you can say and if this is within an organization or a company or even in yourself, if you want to put these value statements up on a wall. So remind yourself of why you're doing, what you're doing and what the walls of that playground are because brand is so emotional, we had to really look at tactical processes that helps us kind of web that emotional world together. So when I come to free time, I know I'm there to learn about how to do business from a place of love and systems. And the ultimate goal is we want you to have as much freedom as possible. That's what the brand strategy is laying the foundation for.

I love that you said we go for mic drop statements. That's so good. And they did indeed come up with through our collaborative conversations, building business blissfully. It was so important to me that the brand that anytime you interact with Free time, there's a feeling of delight and optimism and ease and joy. And I think that's something I want to ask you, Adam, because I know that I am a bit of a shift from I got in, I snuck in through the side door as a friend. I don't necessarily call myself a thought leader, but let's just go with that. Where you have a big experience in branding, real estate, properties, buildings, startups, physical products. And here I'm coming in with these conceptual ideas like pivot and then Free time. And I know that it was. It is a little bit challenging for you and the team. First of all, to brand a person, let's say I was just creating Jennyblake Me. That's already something different than branding a product or a property. And then particularly with free time, the product didn't exist yet, the book was not written, the podcast wasn't launched, And I think that presents its own challenges. For some crazy reason, I felt it was important to do the brand strategy first. And actually, I'm so glad I did, because it really helped me crystallize all the copy and all the writing that would go into the podcast description and the webpage and the book jacket. It was ultimately very, very helpful for me, but I think it creates extra challenge for you. So I'm wondering if you can speak to that and also speak to when should people reach out? And is there such a thing as too early?

Wow, dude, such good questions. I mean, listen, we love a good challenge. And so we, like when you came to us and you're like, well, first off, we're friends. You reached out as, like, a friendly advisor. And like, should I go this path? And I was like, oh, my God, this is with the times. Heck, yes, you should do this. And so, you know, it's almost an honor when you kind of come to us at such, like a blank canvas stage and we can help you figure out that Product. I mean, we love that part. That's why when we talk about like, you know, yes, you can come to us when you've had your product market fit and all that stuff, and we will help you with all those things and hopefully scale you to the moon. At the same time, we also love, because we have people on our team, including me, who have had a startup and had an exit and gone through the VC rodeo and gone through all those various stages. Like, we know what it's like to not have anything and feel maybe a little lost, but you got an idea. And so we like the idea of coming in and helping round out the product. It makes us more invested. For us, it's not always about. It's not about the money. It's for us being us doing something that is going to change and reshape our world because God knows we all need that. If we can have a part in that, it's really, really fun. But it's also good because I think in a way, we can only do that with people and with organizations that we have a trusting relationship with because we need you and your team to fully show up and so do us. So in a way, it almost feels like we're interim co founders with you, helping you kind of build that at the very beginning. And we're happy that our processes can help kind of mold and shape what your product is doing. Because I'm a firm believer since 2005 when I graduated with my fine art graphic design degree. All the way back then, I always believed that I thought product and brand should start very beginning. I don't think I always felt like those companies who are thinking about brand at the very beginning and how that's going to shape the world and how it's going to shape the product is going to be the most impactful. So like for Airbnb, for example, well, those co founders was a designer and a brand designer, you know, like he was thinking about that since day one. And I do feel like that really helps shape the direction of where, of where things are going. So, yes, it's a challenge, it's a fun opportunity. Yeah. I don't know if the ROI for our team is always there on that part, but we get a lot of satisfaction and we love being able to be in it from, from ground zero. Now, with that being said, do all companies need a team, need us to do that right now? I mean, of course, in a great world, yeah, I think you should have someone on the team that is thinking from that standpoint. But this is why we try to be creative on how we do our relationships with people that we really believe in because they don't have the funds right away. We try to get creative. We're trying to think of other ways how we can help them or advise them so when they do get to the place so that they can financially support this like very important big initiative and activation for their brand, we're there and we're already somewhat invested.

Let's talk about the ROI for the person in my shoes. You know, I've had several calls with people who were on the cusp of working with you and it's a nerve wracking investment sometimes, sometimes it's a business owner's biggest investment to date. Especially for something that it's not physical, you can't touch it. Okay. And yet, as you mentioned, Airbnb and one of the co founders has a design background. I can often tell when even doesn't matter. Author, thought leader, podcaster. I can tell when they have a design sensibility and value and when they don't. You can tell when something's really kind of pro and well done and you can also kind of tell when it's just not that important to them. And I definitely do have friends where it's just not that important to them. Whereas for me, I'm kind of obsessed with getting it right. Maybe it's because I have architects for parents or my dad's an artist, my husband's an artist, you know, who can explain why I'm a Libra. Whatever the reason, it happens to be important to me. But I know that it's not for everyone. So what I want to ask you, Adam, is does it matter? Like could I, could I have set up free time with just getting a nice enough looking logo from even a graphic design friend, some kind of mark, some kind of podcast art and then that's it. Tell me about the roi. For me as a business owner and where you think that listeners, or I don't like the word consumers, but like listeners, readers, encounters of the brand, can they notice the difference? Is it explicit or is it just subconscious? Talk to me about that.

First off, I think that a founder, a founding team, I do think that they have to believe in brand. Now the visual of that brand doesn't always have to. I mean, just as human nature is, we are attracted to things that make sense, look nice. I mean the psychology is that, you know, you don't want to walk into a Target store and everything be Walmart blue, right? Like, like, like the the, there's like the misconceptions like that and things that don't line up, they do create a lack of trust in our psychology. But beyond that stuff and knowing that if I think that we believe that design can be a change agent, we believe that design is what bring people back. I think there's a lot of noise in the world and there's a lot of things coming at us from all the different screens and all the different streaming services, and especially being in New York City, et cetera, et cetera, all these towns, like, there's a lot of noise coming in. And so if we only get someone's attention for two or three seconds, we need to make sure that you have that most meaningful and emotional kind of resemblance of who you are in your company organization in that time frame. And if you are done the work to make sure that you are resembling your brand accurately, then the goal is that someone who is looking for that, at that right time, it hits them in the right spot, right in the heartstrings, and they emotionally connect to that brand. And at the same time, if people, you know, people need to remember why, you know, you exist. And so a lot of times having the visual and the voice really tight and consistent will just help kind of solidify that in someone's mind and memory. And so there have been a number of amazing organizations, plenty of organizations that probably weren't designed first and probably not a strategy led design first. But I think that in today's world, that's going to be very like a lot harder to move ahead without.

We'll be right back just after this.

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Lost my train of thought. I've heard of brain freeze, but brain cheese?

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We Work together very closely for six months, starting with branding, free time overall and heart based business. So the heart, the bee that you see on the website, if you listeners, if you go to itsfreetime.com, there's like a little bouncing bee at the bottom that actually stands for heart based business. Then from there we got to the F. Not only for free time, the F and free time, but wings, freedom, flying, optimism, blue sky. So we worked together for about six months, first on the podcast and the overall brand look and feel. And then it was about. That was about three months, and then three months on book design and what would the jacket look like and the flaps and the overall interior design before we handed it over to a typesetter. For me, the brand and having it all be cohesive and harmonious and powerful is what makes an impact. Like you said, Adam, even when you helped me with JennyBlake me, we wanted it to be unique. We wanted people to. And I would often hear from readers. It was the first time I had ever had a professional brand. Readers would say, I'm lost in a rabbit hole of your website. You know, they would have fun there. They would just come and they would not want to leave and they would click on all these links and there was a tech toolkit and it became a fun destination. And that when people landed there for the first time, it did make an impact. And I think what I appreciate about brand and brand strategy is that it quickly conveys, like you said, that emotional piece of how, how do I want people to feel? I want you to feel joyful and positive about your business and have permission to do less and to do things differently. And that's not that common in the business world. So I knew that all of this was going to help shape that. And I, I just knew I wouldn't be able to do that on my own. I don't think visually at all. I just think in words. That's it. I can know great design when I see it, but I cannot create it myself. That brings me to my next question. Adam. So sorry for a rambler of a response. There's an inevitable point in any big project, especially when it might be somebody's biggest investment to date, myself included, where there's this fear. It's almost like the roller coaster of the partnership is clicking upward. Up, up, up, up, up. And then there will come a point in any project where maybe both sides have this, your team and, and mine, or the person hiring you, where you go, oh my God, I don't know if this is going to work. Or the business owner might think, even PR think. But what if I don't like it and I think there's this fear? What if we never get on the same page? What if you can't pull these ideas and this vision out of my head that I cannot explain to you in words because I'm not a visual person and I can just say, I'll know it when I see it. This fear, are we going to get there? And sometimes it does take several rounds. So, friends, I have who have hired you, I've said, don't worry if you see the first round and it feels far away or you don't like it. Every round is crucial for driving toward that blow your mind mic drop moment once it comes to designing the visuals. But how do you think about it on your side?

I don't. I don't think about ever failing. I mean, or not, or not meeting it. I mean, it's a great question because I mean, the way that we look at it and what we just tell people is like, listen, this is going to be a splash of cold water because you are used to what you like and the way you dress and all these things. We're trying to come up with a new wardrobe in a way. And so there's a lot of things that we are coming up with that are going to feel fresh and new. But that's what you hired us for, right? You hired us to be that bridge to get you from where you are now to where you want to be. We are trying to build your new future. And that is essentially what that brand strategy is lining up. And then it is going to come out in a visual representation. And so, you know, this is part of the strategy that's been set up. So we really dig into making sure that not just the value statements or mic drop, but that they are copywritten a certain way that they would feel naturally come from your mouth. We want to make sure that the brand personalities that we are putting together, because we do a big visual exploration, we support that with statements and why we are choosing this visual to represent this certain personality trait. And we only choose five or six personality traits at most because, you know, we want to make sure that this world that we're building for the future is going to look accurate. And so every. That's why we have this, like, very intimate, longer process around the brand strategy because we are making sure that we are walking with you every step of the way. So we start exploring these visuals. We can say, well, listen, this Direction, visual direction, These colors, this typography, these illustrations, this photography style way all this is coming together is based off of X, Y and Z in the strategy. We can always go back to that and we always have that creative brand idea that is our North Star. So for yours it was building business blissfully and we wanted to make sure that we were always going back to that. So if the team and the team and I are working on something, we got that thing plastered on the wall and we are looking at that and we will look and we will explore different variations of visuals and logo types and stuff like that. And if it doesn't hit, if it doesn't hit that feeling, it goes, it goes to the side as, as you know, an exploratory idea. But yeah, sometimes it takes a few rounds. I mean with free time it took three very in depth rounds and you know, to the point where we're like wow, like are we gonna nail this or not?

Are we gonna fire Jenny or not?

But that, but that is also, that is also when the product wasn't fully baked, we were still baking it. And that's okay. And we have come to realize that when you're baking a product side by side with your client, with your partner, like that's just what's going to happen. But I think also what's great about that exercise is it also helps you inch closer to what was right for you as well. So it was a path. We're both on it together and we also navigated those zigzags really well together. And I look back and some of the work is still, is still great. But you know what, what we landed on the free time F the heart based business B the beat, the way everything comes together, the animation styles, colorways, I mean it is dope, it's memorable. And that thing is going to stick out in the shelf and you know we want to rep those pins and that hooded the BFF hoodie like, you know. So I think that. And also when you dig into it, it becomes memorable. So when someone looks at the free time f it's a win. And then all of a sudden you put those two wings on an icon and it starts flying and it starts flying through the air. So all of a sudden you see this like interconnection of all these visuals that are drive down and you feel free and you feel like man, building business with love should feel like that. I should feel like that dollar bill flying in the air.

You know. And same with building. Just saying with the heart based business like that thing is so dope. We were sitting there looking at this heart and we were like, if we turn it a little bit, does that make a B? Is that a B? You know, we're all. So for hours, we're all in the studio just talking to other, printed out these bees all over and say, is it a bee? Do we see a bee? And we're testing that with our own, with our own people in our own network. And then all of a sudden Phil's like, if I add a shadow, we get two bees. And all of a sudden, oh, so it's heart based business in one symbol. So you know what I'm saying? So the thing is, someone might see it and be like, well, that's really artistically well done. But they're going to come back because they're going to once they start understanding the meaning. Oh, that represents heart based business. That's exactly what that is. Like all of a sudden you have just secured a stake in someone's memory, you know, so. And that's what we're always going for. So that was a long winded explanation of yes. It's a journey. When you have a symbol and a brand strategy that is so pure representative of who you are and really bridges where you want to be. That's priceless. These are things that you can look at the great brands of the day. It's how they have built upon that brand strategy. And that message is day one.

Absolutely. And I'll say as an author, this is my third book. And after my first book, I cried projectile tears when I saw the COVID that the publisher sent me. And the second book, the first drafts were clip art, apocalyptically bad in my mind. So it became very important to me, and I would recommend this to any author, is you bring the brand to the project. No one's going to hand you a book cover. And especially if a design team at a publisher hands you a book cover, or you just go with a freelancer and you design a book cover that's going to set the tone for the entire brand that surrounds the book. And I don't. I've never wanted something like a cover that someone does as like some quick project to set the tone for my brand. So it was really important to me with free time that the book as well have this look and feel that we're talking about. What's interesting is that anyone who's listening, who's been around my universe for a long time, I always sign my name with a heart. And Adam was the one who Helped me digitize that signature heart Love Jenny. And it went on Jennyblake Me. He helped me create a stamp for it, an embossing imprint that went on all my business cards. So this heart has been around for 10 years in my world. So it's also fun. And you know me, Adam, I can't get away from this favorite blue color. I have like.

Go Bruins. It's like bruin blue. I love it. It just makes my eyes happy. And I saw a coffee cup sitting on a table in New York City by Joe Coffee. And this coffee cup leapt out of the air and into my. Into the sky. Like, I can't explain the joy I felt when seeing this color blue. And so I became obsessed with this blue. There are. So There are certain quirks. And I think that's what you're saying about personality too, Adam. Like even the heart based business and the F for free time, that becomes a wing that signifies freedom. The conclusion of the book is about hawks flying. So flight is there. There's a little Easter egg in the book design with the wings that listeners, astute listeners will have to try to go on a treasure hunt to find. And you all came up with the idea for bff, renaming My Insider the. My Private Community for Podcast Supporters. Bff, which incorporates all of it into one thing. And it's just. It starts to get really fun. I think what I appreciate is getting all the puzzle pieces that then when you combine them and as you said, create collateral, create swag, like everything comes to life. And I feel that, as I explained to one friend, it's not like you're paying all this money to install a shed in the yard. Then you may never go in there. You are renovating the entire house of your business. You're renovating the whole thing.

You.

You can't. There is no area of the business that is untouched. Letterhead business cards. Every single thing pulls from these brand ideas. And I know, Adam, you were talking about us going three rounds. I think also maybe I'm a pickier client in certain ways. But what I appreciate about you and the team is you, as you said when I asked you, you said you don't even think about failing because you're so committed to having the client be thrilled that the first two brands are beautiful and they could go to someone else's brand. But they weren't in my. They weren't what was in my gut and heart. By the time we got to free time. This third version, starting from the heart and everything and Phil on your team is so friggin brilliant. We knew we're like, this is it, this is it. It's so epic. It's be. It's so far beyond. Oh my gosh. It just transcended a nice looking thing to have so much depth and meaning. And that's what I really appreciate of where we got with this project.

Yeah, I mean look at the way you're explaining it. That's the money. That's the money spot for us, right? It's for us. It's like the other, the other rounds. Yeah, they were beautiful and they were cool and they were well thought out and everything. But that's the, that's the point where I was saying it's like the founder, the leader, the author. You have to be able to say, dang, that is me. You know, I feel so seen and represented and you created something that I knew was there, but I like one of our clients is Resource Furniture. We did, you know, we won a few awards for their brand that we did. And you know, it's so thoughtful. You know, one of the, one of the co founders was like, I've been doing this for 30 years and you finally put something that represented the company that I always knew was there, but we can never figure it out. And I, and he's like, I want to put this everywhere. And so that's what we're kind of going for. Because at the end of the day, we don't want to make a brand that you're not in love with. You're the one selling what you're doing, you know, like you have to go out and rep it hard. So you want to feel proud and you want to be able to talk about it in that thoughtful way like you are now. And I think the beauty of design, really great design, is almost simple when you see it, you know, but it's so much more meaningful when you, when you start peeling back the layers. It's been said in order to get into simplicity is a very complex process.

Yes.

And to be able in today's world, not, I mean, you got anything about, you know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, you didn't have to think about your brand living through all these different digital applications, it was much easier time. So now we're creating brands. We need to think about every screen, every way it's going to, I mean we're starting to think about web 3. How are brands in the NFT world going to actually look and operate now that Facebook is going to meta, whatever all that is Brand laundering. Yeah, exactly. But there is a. But there is. There is actually a metaverse that is. For me, you know, Web two was about me. Web three is about we. So, you know, you got to think about, like, all these different intersections of how your brand's gonna grow and stuff like that. And so I actually think brand is gonna become even more important so you don't get so diluted and you don't get ripped off, you know, and you make sure that what you're doing is going to be very unique to what problem and what you are solving in the world. And I think us, we just want to make sure that we are working with brands that are doing something noble in the world. And that's really what we are always striving to do. So that's why we always want to go that extra mile. And for everyone, kind of just wondering, everything we're talking about goes into, like a silver platter of all these, of all these assets and goes into a brand book. I mean, Jenny's brand book is, I don't know, 70, 80 pages. I don't even remember. And we want to make sure that we're giving guidelines and we are giving you assets that you can work with. So whether you have a design team or not, we want to make sure that you're able to use it in a very applicable way. It's important for you to know that, like, we talk about all these things, but there are going to be very active assets you're going to be able to use out in the world.

Yeah, I just looked it up, the brand guidelines that you sent me. 64 pages. It's a 64 page PDF. Yeah, it's pretty incredible. I forgot to mention you mentioned the flying money. I wanted to say to listeners, I came to Adam and his team, the flying money was just the little emoji that I had picked while I was in the earliest eggshell stage of this whole project. It was this flying money. And I kept saying to them, I don't know why, I just. This emoticon represents this project and this direction. It's this flying money. And. And it is incredible. And I kept. I was stuck on that. So it's like I had the Joe cup, the Joe coffee cup displaying money emoji and a heart. And it's like, look what has been created from these little clues. And there are little clues that just kind of stuck to me like glue. And I would say that to those of you listening, even long before you engage a team, it's just find those things that spark. So Much joy, you know, that you see in your environment. And it doesn't matter how random they are. Like, okay, here, Adam and together agency, flying money emoji, a coffee cup and a heart go. And by the way, this product doesn't exist yet, so let's see what we can do.

Yeah, we love it. If you have those little nuggets of inspiration, bring them to the table. No matter how small they are, they can always be helpful.

What do you think are the biggest mistakes that your clients make? So as you're working with them, maybe there's two sides to this question. Either mistakes that they make before hiring you or during the process, or just ways that things kind of go wonky and is there anything that they can do to make your job easier?

To make our job easier is, you know, trust the process, have an open mindset, and get ready to be involved. We are not the brand design firm, the creative firm that you're going to come to and say, this is what I want. Come back to me in six weeks with presentations. We want to work with you side by side. We want to partner with you on this. So this is the journey that we're all going into. And like you just said, if you have any things of inspiration that you want to bring to the table, bring it. It doesn't matter how personal it is, how out there, it's fine. And usually if it's a bit more meaningful to you, that's better. So I would much rather someone come to us, like what you did and say, I love this blue From Joe Coffee vs oh, we really like the way the Apple brand looks. We want to be niche. So there's that mistakes.

I think the mistakes is more of just people don't look at brand as an investment. I think they look at it as, I'm gonna get a logo over here. I'm gonna get some illustration. I'm gonna get a logo from 99designs. I'm gonna get some illustrations from, you know, iStock or whatever those online, you know, companies are that produce those assets. And I'm going to have someone overseas build me a squarespace website. One that's not. That's not branding. That's you essentially just putting together a bunch of visuals and praying that they're all going to come together in some magical way and that you're going to feel good about it. What I try to tell people is, like, you invest in brand because.

It. Your brand is your competitive edge. You know, the brand is what is going to attract the right customers. Brand is what creates culture and attracts like talent and brand is what helps you get noticed and get press and like I think which is most important at the end of the day is brand creates consistency. Many people don't like like the way you look a lot of ways, but if you're consistent, that still is extremely important. I would just say like, you need to think about investing and building that and building that brand foundation and then you'd be able to jump off from there.

Awesome. If you could give small business owners permission, what would it be? You hereby have permission to to work.

Till four in the morning and wake.

Up at 11am Ooh, one for the night owls.

I mean I get it. This is the 5am club, blah blah blah.

You're just the stay up till 4am club. So you beat the 5am club.

Listen, when I'm in the zone and I'm blasting my my music and I'm doing NFT drops, I'm working on client projects, the world is quiet. That's when I get it done. And then I like to wake up and know that it's all been done and can have a easy late morning.

Thank you so much Adam. This has been a blast to go behind the brand together. None of this would exist in the form that it does without you for so many reasons. As a business partner, thought partner, friend, and for just always picking me up when I'm down, when I feel delusional and insane for going these new directions and putting the investments that I do. You're always one to say keep the faith. I really appreciate that.

I got you. You're my homie. Thank you for having me.

Thank you. Thanks everybody for listening.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.

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