356: Four Brand Personas with Adam Chaloeicheep — Free Time Crossover (Part Two)

When the holidays start to feel a bit repetitive, reach for a Sprite Winter Spiced Cranberry and put your twist on tradition. A bold cranberry and winter spice flavor Fusion Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry is a refreshing way to shake things up this sipping season and only for a limited time Sprite Obey your thirst. Welcome back Pivoters. I am very excited to be bringing you two crossover episodes from the Free Time podcast 3:55 and 3:56. These are fun conversations that I've had with one of my longest time business besties, Adam Chelya Cheep. He and I are now celebrating over a decade of friendship and business collaborations and I just thought you would get a lot out of these episodes, especially if you're thinking about rebranding or launching something new in the new year. I just love these conversations about what really goes into creating a visual voice for your business or your creative projects. I highly encourage you to check out Together Agency's substack called Rebrand and Adam's co founder Marisol Dahl has another brilliant substack called Mind Brew. I'll be sure to put those in the show notes and if you want to check out their portfolio, including the freetime brand overview of everything we did together, visit gotogether Agency. That's gotogether Agency. What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of the only move that Matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast. If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

We're here in the new year and there's all this New year new you energy. I'm curious about the new energy for a business and specifically I asked you back on the show to talk about how a business owner can know when it's time for a rebrand. And I think there are different levels of this. So there might be a brand refresh, a spruce, maybe judging some social media, you know, templates. And then there's sometimes comes a point where a business owner might feel like they really do need a rebrand. It's not a new business. They may or may not have had a formal brand strategy before. But that's where I'd love to start with you. Who are the people that come to you and how can they know that it's time for a rebrand?

A lot of times when we are first contacted we actually will do that on the first call and have some back and forth over email, if that helps. Sometimes clients just need to talk it through. They don't necessarily know if they need it. They feel like they need it. They might feel pressure from the outside. A friend or an advisor has brought something up to them and they need to verify. And at together we really choose to make sure that we put our heart and soul into every brand that we work on. We need to make sure that they're also in the right place to dive in. Because an actual rebrand or just creating a brand, as you know, is a lot of work and you need stamina and you need to be able to stay up late, give feedback nuanced and get into the details. Which while doing that and running a company or possibly trying to get another company off the ground and using the rebrand as part of that extension, you know, it's a lot of work. So a lot of things to handle. Usually we would say that there are kind of three key things when there's a telltale sign that it's time to rebrand. The first one is your brand is a liability to your business. Maybe your brand is keeping you from making sales, getting deals. People are going to more compelling competitors. Another one is brand's business model shifted. Maybe you have more products and services. Suddenly your name, your identity, you are growing out of it. And then the last one is maybe your brand name no longer works. So sometimes names help move a company in a completely new direction in a new growth model. And so we need to think about where's the future of this company going, starting at reinventing everything from the ground up.

I love these three things that you've outlined. It's so helpful. And when you and I first met, in fact, the latter two were true because I had life after college. I had hired a professional designer at one point, halfway into that project. But by 2012, 2013, I had completely grown out of it. The business model shifted and the brand name no longer worked. So you were there when we did the interim site, Jennyblake Me. And then of course, you were there for Pivot, the Epic logo, and now free time. But in each of those cases, just to give listeners an example, I had kind of outgrown my previous turtle shell, if you will, even though I love those brands and Pivot is timeless and eternal. For that matter, so was what you did with Jennyblake Me. But I want to encourage listeners, really check out episode 45 almost first before you come back to this one, because that's where we talk about all the work that goes into brand strategy. It's so much more than just what you see. It's the strategy of the business almost at the same time. So the piece, Adam, of those three that I'm curious about is number one, you said when your brand is a liability to your business, sometimes it's hard to tell why you're not landing new business or you're not getting the rates that you're suggesting, or how can a business owner know that the brand has actually become a liability and not any other factors in the business?

Yeah, we call this Persona. So we have kind of our own Personas of what our clients are. This is a Jekyll and Hyde Persona. And so when your brand is a liability, it means that you need to go through a rebrand for a better business. Maybe your brand has gotten them so far, but now it's holding them back. So they've got traction, they've got something really special going on, but they're losing out on bigger opportunities and need that rebrand to launch them into the next phase. This is kind of where your brand was great in the beginning, but now it's kind of the enemy. This is probably unpopular comment, but it's kind of like the person in your friend group that keeps you from getting invited to all the cool parties.

I'm still curious, though. How do they know? Because sometimes a business owner has lived with their visual voice and anything else that went into creating that original brand. They've lived with it for a few years. As you said, it can be hard to pull over and work on something like a rebrand. I guess I'm just wondering. It feels like probably much like driving an old or a used car, it could kind of sputter along at when do you actually go to the dealer, put down all that money, get the new car, versus someone who's saying, okay, our brand might not be working extra hard for us, but how do they know when it tips into that liability point where it's actually hurting them emotionally.

You'Re going to be unhappy at how your business is being represented or trying to figure out how to get it represented the right way? The brand also might not be functionally working for you and your team. You know, it can be more. You know, it can be said easier and cleaner. You know, it can be more memorable. And maybe it's grown up. Maybe it needs a different outlook on the world. Its personality has changed. The way we try to approach it is a more authentic approach. We really believe that in Today's world, there's a lot of noise out there, there's a lot of people having empty promises. And so we want to make sure, through our strategic us, that you are actually being seen for what you are and where you're going. You don't need a peacock here, but we need to make sure that we need a full brand expression that is related to you and it's at your fingertips and you know when to dress the part. Great analogy with the car. Maybe it's working, maybe it's getting you there, it's high mileage. But maybe personally, your lifestyle's changed, maybe you've grown, maybe you've now got a family and need a bigger car, you have moved and you have to drive four or five hours to get to family. There's all these kind of factors that come into play that will then start telling you that you need to upgrade.

That reminds me of talking with my brother, who many years ago, he was in real estate. I think he was working for a brokerage, but he would have client meetings or it could have been when he was trying to get his own thing off the ground. And the car that he drove was really important. So if he drove a pickup truck, that was a signal that he gets his hands dirty. He's the guy to buy your house from you at a great price. But if he was meeting with somebody to do a business deal with or start a company, well, that's where the Porsche, he would, oh, I need a used Porsche so I can show up at these meetings and impress people. And it kind of makes me feel the same way when we're talking about brand and when it's time for a refresh. Like you said, your old car might be fine. And it's not that we want to get caught up in status signals, but it is still saying something about you. So I know for some people, I know you've even worked with coaches who I've referred to you who wouldn't normally think, oh, I'm a coach, I need a big, fancy brand strategy. I've also used the metaphor of renovating a house. And yet there are a lot of coaches out there, and there's more every year. They seem to be growing exponentially. You know, of how many go through trainings, whereas it may not have mattered to have a big, bold, beautiful, differentiated brand in the beginning, the economy might shift in such a way, or the market grows in such a way that, well, now it is needed to stand out and differentiate and show. I've been at this a Decade. I take it really seriously and have the website, the newsletter, the social, all tied together in a cohesive brand. Now I'm just speaking for you.

This is what's great. Though we've worked together, you're now educated. This is kind of like when the teacher becomes a student or the student becomes a teacher analogy. And so this is great that you were actually able to speak to this, because now when you are working on your brand and you're growing it, you're able to think of the consistency between all these channels. That's amazing for a small business owner to be able to learn and be a brand manager and not always have to look outside of them to make sure that they're doing it the right way. That's music to my ears. And that's what we hope we're doing. Like we're teaching you how to fish. We'll make sure everything else is set. And that's really what we are known for, to come up with those foundational brand pillars that you can now stand on. And I think what's great, too, is we try to leave room that if you do grow or as an extension of your brand, it's a smart enough system that you can easily use items from it to do that. And then when you get to a certain level where you really need to grow or some verticals taken off, yeah, maybe you'll come back to us and we help you refine that and make sure that the whole system works cohesively together. So everything that you're saying is spot on and that people have to kind of take a step back when it comes to brand building. I think a lot of people get focused on how cool Logo works, how it looks and how everything feels together. But remember, it's about building the relationship with your customer. And first impressions are really important. When we think about the coaches that we have helped with their branding platforms, we've really talked to them and listened to them to understand who they are in a sea of coaches, because we're all different and we're all distinct and we all have our own methodology and process. It's actually been really fun to work with coaches and solopreneurs because a lot of times, as we go through our brand strategy process, we'll help uncover different methodologies and even sometimes name those methodologies that they didn't even think about, and we even tie that into the bigger brand system. All of a sudden, it's not just about them being a coach. They've got a methodology, they have a pov. On how they lead and how they teach people. And so you start having these like distinct brand pillars about who they are that then they can kind of stand on and explain who they are in the world and it will help them stand out differently. And on top of that, we have really dope designers and artists, so we always make it look really, really good too. But the core, strategically forward, the core of that brand is already created before we even get into the looks of it.

We'll be right back just after this.

I love that you mentioned those pillars and even the methodology that makes a business or a business owner unique, let's say, if they're a solo preneur like me, I also like to refer to it as being an ideapreneur when I talk to people about licensing. I mean, you've read Rolling in Dough, you know that it hasn't been easy. I have not successfully landed a third licensing client despite almost a decade of trying. So take this with a huge grain of salt. However, the clients that I did land, those are six figure contracts. And I don't know anyone who's landed a contract like that without a cohesive brand from the inside out. The pillars, the methodology, having the materials look really seamless, unified, they have to look professional. It's like that Porsche, your IP cannot be scrapped together or someone is not going to write you a six figure check. And so in that case, I'm so happy you brought this up because it's not just, I think the website, it's that when you want to go down the path of something like a book or a licensing program, which in my case had a spiral bound facilitator guide, participant handouts, a workbook, there were so many extensions of the brand and they all need to talk together. And I have like a fourth grader skill with any kind of visuals or creating anything cohesive, I'm not skilled at that whatsoever. I don't think that way. I could work collaboratively with a team like yours, but I cannot cobble together what I need just through Canva and now even mid journey or AI. It's so helpful when there's actually a structure to it, to the pillars, the thought pillars, the methodology, but also then all the ingredients that you would combine to create a cohesive set of materials that if you run a business that has a business model where you are trying to land maybe VIP coaching clients or speaking gigs or a book deal or design a book or any of the rest, that's where I think it really does make a difference.

Yeah, and to echo that, there's something really relieving when you as a client, you are actually expressing yourself in full kind of brand therapy mode. We're going through the strategy phase and we are able to understand it, comprehend it and come up with different ways concisely, creatively, bite size snapshots and getting back to you what we think this is and what you're saying to us. And a lot of times we get kind of like the silent. We're actually presenting the brand strategy. They look at us in silence with just a huge smile on their face because they're like, you didn't even just hear me. You were able to elevate it and add more thought behind it that they may not previously thought about before. I think it starts becoming a very real thing when you go through the brand strategy process because it's, as you said, it's part business strategy, part brand strategy. There is this kind of brand therapy part where we're helping you understand, like what to throw out and what to keep. And then we're putting that through our process of what the personality traits are, what are the pillars, what's a 10,000 foot view and all those kind of extra things that kind of make up the brand strategy. So when you read through it, you really understand the story and you start understanding how you're going to start building relationships with your customers.

We'll be right back just after this.

With Venmo Stash. A taco on one hand and ordering a ride in the other means you're stacking cash back with Venmo Stash. Get up to 5% cash back when you pick a bundle of your favorite brands. Earn more cash when you do more with Stash. Venmo Stash terms and exclusions apply. Match $100 cash back per month. See terms of Venmo Me Stashterms. The who's down and who Newville were making their list, but some didn't know. Walmart has the best brands for their gifts. What about toys? Do they have brands kids have been wanting all year?

Yep. Barbie, Tony's and Lego gifts that will.

Make them all cheer. Do you mean they have all the brands I adore?

They have Nintendo, Nespresso, Apple and more.

What about so the who answered questions from friends till they were blue? Each one listened and shouted from Walmart.

Who knew?

Shop gifts from top brands for everyone on your list in the Walmart app.

I love that you said brand therapy. You must have that phrase for a reason. What is brand therapy that you've had to do with clients. When does that come in?

It could be throughout the whole process. Currently we're working on a pretty big brand in New York City right now and the client is having a big issue with the name change and with the new look. We're going not because they don't think it needs to be done, they're just attached to something that they saw as their kind of genesis baby of this brand. But now it's just becoming so much bigger than they thought possible and they're just having a hard time of letting go. So there's always a therapeutic part there where we're trying to help them understand the bigger picture and where it's going to go. Maybe there's a middle ground in what we do with the brand that has some throwback to where it started. So there's always that. And then a bigger part of our brand therapy process is during the strategy and the upfront. I think a lot of times founders, solopreneurs, they come into this process thinking that they already know what this thing is and they just need help unifying it into looking a certain way. And the way we look at it is even if we might know an industry really well, we still try to come in with a Buddhist mind, like we don't know anything. We are just trying to ask questions, get very curious, poke holes. And a lot of times these one hour client calls turn into two hour calls because we are going down various past and memories and why they wanted to do this in the first place. And something a lot of times that's where the good stuff is. We start going down these random tangent pathways and we just start exploring. And there are actually some really cool nuggets in there that we will notate on our end and say, hey, does this make in the brand strategy, this is visual moniker that they're talking about. Does that come up in the actual visual brand? So we'll actually start taking things because again, we're always trying to get down to the authentic part of what this brand is going to be. And since you're the founder, you're the leader, you're the CEO, we need to make sure that it really resonates with you. And I think when people start going down that process, they actually feel a lot lighter when they go through it too. You actually see their emotional kind of state through these calls and going through the process actually changing as well. And that's the really fun part for us is when we get to go through that and we get to see them extremely happy at the end and saying that they feel really seen and heard. Because the whole idea of what an authentic brand is has become like a cliche. We're actually trying to say no. We're staying true to the art and science of what we know. And we know that we can actually really reach an authentic brand for you. And we don't try to sprinkle too much like fancy words on top of that to win you over. So it's nice to see them see relief to be seen, to be heard, and us to bring our talents and expertise to make it something very viable that they can actually put out into the world and feel like it really represents them.

And then you get that fun feedback from website visitors or people who see it, who in my case, with free time, went out of their way to say, what the heck is this? Like, I've got your website and I'm utterly delighted. And for me, that was so helpful. I really did feel seen and I didn't even fully know what the brand or the book or the podcast were. You helped shape that. So I think that's important to say too that not that you want every client coming to you in a goose state like I was, but it is so cool to feel best expressed in the business through the business. Again, for me, differentiating because I wanted people to land on the podcast and not know if it was one of the big players, big networks, and I wanted them to see the book and not know if it was hybrid or indie published compared to one of the big five. I wanted it to look better than the top publishing houses. And if I don't say so myself, I think it does. It won six awards thanks to you all. You mentioned process and the art and science of what you do. When a client comes to you for a rebrand, are you actually following the same process as if they were a new client, or is there anything different if they already have some existing brand strategy or materials?

Yeah, a rebrand and a brand, let's say from a blank canvas, usually will go through the same process. Like we were talking before, like the camp of being a Jekyll and Hyde, you have a brand, but now it's a liability. You're losing business, you're losing customers, you're losing deals. We would need to go through the process to figure out, okay, there's a reason why you're losing those deals. Let's figure who you are now. There might be some things we can look back on that and use, but. But it's actually better and we're better Service that we actually look at it with, again, like a beginner's mind and coming in like we don't know anything to see what we come up with. That also kind of comes into the camp of your brand's like a little bit like a Frankenstein. You did a logo one time here you did a brand strategy later here you did a website. Like, everything's kind of all over the place again. We would rebrand for better alignment there. I would say that if you are coming for what we would call like a tune up, right, you need to refresh your brand to, like, kind of stay in the race. Let's go with the car analogy. You need a tune up and you need fresh tires to stay in the race. It's kind of like you're doing fine, you're making sales, everything feels cool, but you're kind of on the fence whether you need to update your brand or not. So, like, maybe while addressing the brand is not urgent, after a few years, you do run the risk of being outdated. There are a lot of many brand elements that are stuck in their times. For example, do you remember when every tech company named themselves with an ly at the end?

Oh, my gosh, yes. Or without vowels.

Right.

Michael and I still make fun of mud Woody.

Right.

Or they had a Flash website. Do you remember when every super professional, big movie studio or anything was on Flash? Like, absolutely horrendous for mobile accessibility.

Yeah, absolutely. So there are times where you're just like stuck. That is a good time to revisit. And we would say every few years revisit that for what you would call brand refresh. We call it a tune up. So do we want to refine the colors? Do we want to tweak the logo? Do we need to add a few new brand elements that would better serve you? Again, you don't need a new car, but you need to tune it up. New tires, stay in the race, keep things going and running really well. I would also say too that's really fun about these tune up moments is that customers and clients also get really excited to see something new. It reengages interest. When you're able to dive back in, it can become a moment too where you're able to show the world, hey, we're still here, we're still growing. We're not changing the brand from the bottom up and we're not going through a huge rebrand. But we're refreshing and we're refining and we're polishing. That's always a nice thing to see.

I know you have a really dialed in process by now because you've been at this a long time and you're great at hiring incredible and very talented team members. Can you share at a high level what the together agency process is? So from the time a new client signs, what happens? Take us through the car wash. Yeah, I'm sticking with our metaphor.

I'll give two scenarios. You're coming to us like the blank canvas, okay. And you have a business idea, not much else. So we would then first we do discovery and research. So we do some surveys with you personally, we get to know your business, we do our own research around your business, your industry and stuff that we can find that's really interesting. What historically, what it currently is and where the industry possibly might be going. We try to match that up with your survey answers to understand where you're at and what you might be best at in that industry. And then we will take that and we'll put that into a brand strategy process where we actually start understanding your foundational brand pillars, your personality traits, how you want to talk and be seen in the world through mood boards and tonality exercises. Then from there we go into the visual brand exercise. We start off with the logo because a lot of times the logo needs to have a lot of meaning within, can't embody entire brand. That's impossible for a lot of logos to do. But it can have one of the kind of top ideas that we want to understand through this brand. And then from there we'll build out the color palette, the typography system, the graphic elements, the animation elements and then we start going into whatever applications you might need. It could be a full on e commerce website, it could be a simple website, it could be a marketing website. We will go through those different avenues and figuring out what is going to serve you best in your business from a digital standpoint. And if there is a physical point or we need to do some print materials, we work with a lot of real estate clients. So maybe we have to do in unit stuff. We have to do signage. So whatever the expression of the brand is, we will then create it from there at the end of our time and journey of this part together. Because we have also been startup founders on our end, we understand how we need to have things delivered. So we don't want to have things stuck in a Google Drive that is hard to go through. We use a platform where we lay out all your brand assets in a very organized way. So you can easily just log in, download and go can also share it very easily with other people on your team or other contractors. You might have that. You need to help develop something with the brand assets. So you've got that and then at the end you've got your, what we call the brand guidelines, which is essentially your brand bible. This is going to show you how to use every asset and when to use it and just be a reference guide on how things are put together. So a lot of times that we come up with social media templates, email templates, all sorts of different things that you might use over and over. And so those would be readily available through there. And if you want to create something new, you have it as a reference and you know how the branch should come together. That is kind of the blank canvas, a brand rebrand journey. With us, a tune up, a brand refresh would be something smaller. We don't necessarily need to go through a whole brand strategy. We need to go through and see what can we tighten up. Is it looking like a little 10 years ago? Do we need to kind of update it through the style visual representation? Maybe there are some things around tonality and the copywriting that we should also think about. And are there other assets we need to create that would help push you for the next 10 years? So the tune up is a much shorter, tighter timeframe and turnaround. But we're also not digging into like the nooks and crannies and excavating what your brand is. So I would say those would be like the two main ways you could look at our processes.

We'll be right back just after this.

I know a lot of listeners are inevitably going to want to know about budget and what kind of investment. I shared a little bit in the last episode in episode 45, because there is a difference for a venture backed startup that's just blasting money out every which way and they're also trying to become a unicorn. So it's really a no brainer for them to invest in something like this. And it's different for a small shop or an indie like me, where I can say, I mean, I invested almost six figures for free time between the podcast, the brand overall, the book design. And the thing is, I know that it's worth it because I'm going to live in it for five years, if not more. In this case, pivot the brand strategy we did back in 2015, the book launched in 2016. I still love it. I mean, maybe there are certain things to refresh. Probably the things that I did that I hacked together from your brand assets. But the logo itself is still very smart and very fresh. And so that's seven, eight years on. So for me, I'm kind of maybe a little different in the sense that this is the thing I'm really willing to pay a lot for almost sacrificing, like going to a mastermind or hiring expensive coaches. I just like to invest in brand because it's the thing I can't do myself. But I'm curious, like, just tell us a little bit about what kind of investment, at least to work with you. And then maybe there are people who there's not a fit to work with you, or they don't have these types of resources. And I wouldn't have these resources at this moment in time, but when I'm thinking of a new entire direction for the business, I'm somehow able to cobble them together. So I also think sometimes it's not now, but it's helpful for people to think about, okay, do I wait, Do I pool my resources and go with an agency like yours, or do I really need to do much smaller scale?

Yeah, we want everyone to make responsible business decisions for sure. When it comes to your platform, I wholeheartedly agree that Pivot is still timeless, it's still awesome, and I think it's going to live on for a very long time. When you do come to work and sign on with us, that's always our North Star. We are actually hoping that we create something where you will not need a refresh or even a tune up for 10 years. That's our hope. Now sometimes companies grow and they change and they pivot, so they might need to go through a bigger endeavor. But I'm really happy that you brought that up because Pivot again, to this day, we love it. The Freetime brand, we absolutely love free time. We show it off all the time. In our case studies, we've gotten such good feedback from it as well. And like you said before, even mutual friends that we have, I've gotten messages where they're like, how did you capture Jenny in a brand? You know, when they look at free time, that to us is such a glorifying, amazing affirmation of what we're doing because we want to make sure that we're actually capturing you in a bottle. Right.

And by the way, I just want to pause you because at the time of this recording, like freetime launched in the midst of a pandemic, so it's not the best business case study. But Pivot, I crunched the numbers because someone In BFF asked a question. The Pivot part of the business has earned over $2 million. So if I spent six figures on the brand, but it helped me land all these opportunities, speaking licensing, et cetera, the ROI was there over the longer term. Like you said, you wouldn't want somebody to go in debt around it, obviously. But just to update, because I didn't even have those numbers when we recorded the last one. Depending on your business and on your business model.

Absolutely.

I do think there's a correlation.

I'm glad you brought that up. 2 million, dude, that's so good. Amazing to hear that. You said 2015, 2016. So yes, the ROI is there. So I would recommend that if you're going to try and build, let's say a platform like Pivot or something bigger where you are looking to make 500k plus over a few years or pivot 1 to 2 million, that phase, we would actually want to go through a proper brand and that would start around 50k. That's because we're a strategy first company and like I said, we are going through quite a bit of processes to even know what to develop and what you're doing. Brand IP is going to be. We do have what we call a starter kit that starts at 25k. This would be for small organizations, solopreneurs who are just starting out and they just need to get enough to get their brand out to the world. We'll still go through a smaller brand strategy and we'll do enough that is going to help us give us a brand system and that could usually turn into maybe like a one or two page website. The starter kit is something that is hopefully going to get you off the ground, going to work for a year or two and then you are ready to come back to us and say I'm really ready to build this out. Once you've got some traction going and the last one is usually the tune up kind of brand refresh again. That would start around 25k too. A lot of times we would have to feel out if we're going to be the right team to tune you up. Because a lot of times we want to make sure that we aren't just putting lipstick on a pig. We want to make sure we're doing it the right way. For example, Jay, if you came back to us and said one of your brands, let's say in 10 years, needed a brand refresh, we would immediately say yes, because we've already worked on this brand, we know you and we know what you Represent. And we've gone through this strategic process where we feel like we understand the foundation. Other people will come to us who maybe we haven't worked with from the beginning. We would just need to figure out if they're just a good fit and if we can actually help them. And again, not just make something look a certain way for the sake of it making it look pretty.

That makes a lot of sense. What about for somebody for whom their business model just doesn't support this type of investment? It doesn't make sense for them, but they still want to tune up. What advice would you give? Where should they start?

Today's pretty amazing. With the technology around ChatGPT, it's a very smart friend to have in your pocket. You could also start there and even ask it straight up about brand strategy phases and tactics that you could probably work through.

And by the way, I did a ChatGPT episode, I'll put in the show notes. I had to do that. I asked for author and podcaster Jenny Blake, please create brand strategy guidelines. And it was not a bad first draft. So if you have any public thinking or writing out there on the Internet, it's not bad what it gives you, it's not perfect, but you're not starting from scratch to at least create the guidelines. I had it say, what's my voice? What makes me unique? Like it was very interesting.

Yeah. And a lot of times now what's happening is people are actually taking the brand strategies that we've created and using that with ChatGPT. So they're kind of becoming self sufficient. They don't have to come back to us with a question. They're kind of using this technology to help them move forward with their business. So if you don't have the resources, ChatGPT is a great place to start. There's also places like upwork, working, not working. These are all platforms where you can look at different people's portfolios and what they're doing and see if someone seems to be a good fit, understands your industry and you can test them out. I think that if you are first starting out, you don't want to always invest too much if you don't know exactly what it's going to be. If you do have a very clear idea on what it means to be, maybe you can also reach out to different agencies like ours. And we sometimes work deals out. If we really believe in that person, that founder, we will invest time and energy into them as well. So that's always a possibility. It never hurts to just reach out to an agency we really like, you really resonate and say hey I've got something. This is what I got right now. Can we work something out and put me on a payment plan, whatever. It could be anything like that. But if you also just want to feel a little more self sufficient, chatgpt Working, not working. Com is a great resource. Upwork is a great resource. And also if you go to Behance, which Adobe owns, it's just plethora of portfolios of people's work and their case studies and you can hire them and reach out to them through there as well.

And Canva is really good for things like a business proposal or invoice templates. Like I have used Canva very successfully. I just found it easier once I had all the brand ingredients and the color palette and the logo files. I have been able to do a lot on my own. I will say with tools like Canva as well.

We'll be right back just after this.

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast Smart move Being financially savvy Smart move. Another smart move having State Farm help you create a competitive price. When you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

This episode is brought to you by ebay. Before all the algorithm fed blah and.

The endless sea of dupes, shopping used to feel more fun. Find that feeling again on ebay. It's not mindless scrolling, it's a fashion pursuit. And when you score that rare Adidas Collab or the Dior saddlebag you've been manifesting, it's a rush.

Ebay has millions of pre loved finds from hundreds of brands, but backed by authenticity guarantee.

Ebay Things People Love.

Okay Adam, I'm just so curious about these four Personas and listeners. You can I guess see which one might apply to you.

I'll go through them quickly and feel free to ask questions. Around them we see all sorts of clients so they will range widely but usually 90, 95% they all fall into a certain category. So the first one is what we call the blank canvas and that is essentially you have a business idea but absolutely nothing else. The next one is what we call the Jekyll and Hyde which we're talking about. And that's essentially where your brand has gotten them so far and now holding them Back. A very famous one is the Frankenstein. That's essentially when you have done a logo over here with someone, then six months later did a brand strategy over here, then two months later you hired a copy over here and everything is just a hot mess. And again put together like a Frankenstein. And then the last one is like a tune up, where it's really what we talked about last time, like a brand refresh and essentially getting a tune up of your brand to stay relevant and stay up to date. And if there are some kind of old elements, timely old elements that are still part of the brand, to rethink those.

I love the Jekyll and Hyde one. How come you came up with that name for it?

Because even the client wrestles with it, right?

Oh, yeah.

They know their brand is liability, but. And they know that it's been working so far, but there's something about it that is going to work against them. The brand in itself is working, but it also can become an enemy for growth.

So these are really the four Personas. It's almost like the stage of brand status of the clients that come to you. So it's not that there's brand archetypes, because I've had actually previous guests talk about that. I'll put that in the show notes. It's not the archetype of their overall brand. It's the stage that they're at when they come to you or they need some brand strategy work. Is that right?

Exactly. And a lot of times through those first calls with a client and really trying to understand where they're at, they might think that they just need a tune up. And then through the conversation, they're like, holy crap, we're actually in this Jekyll Hyde moment here. And so through that discovery, it does help them understand what they need to do to go forward.

I think you need to rename the blank canvas to some kind of the zombie, or maybe that one's the ghost. And then Jekyll and Hyde, Frankenstein, and then what's the tune up? We need some kind of scary monster.

Yeah, we could do holiday themes. That'd be fun.

Yeah. You have two out of four. So the tune up needs to be like the freshly minted Vampire.

Hungry vampire.

I think that they're all fun. Whatever stage you're at with your product and with your brand, these four stages, they're all fun to dive into. But I think we love the blank canvas. I think there's something really intimate and honoring of that. Really get in the weeds of even understanding the Business strategy as well. We try to really bring a business strategy perspective to the brand strategy process anyways, but it's just really get into the business idea and really distilling that is a really fun part of the process. So just talking about these out loud, I feel like we get a lot of the blank canvas and it's sometimes that's where the startups come in. It's fun.

Yeah. Or branding, like in my case, a book or a podcast. So it's not the business overall. In fact, Jenny Blake Enterprises has no brand. It's a ghost brand, It's a show company.

Yeah. But Freetime was so dope though, because yes, it was an idea of a book, but there's a platform and there's all these other kind of verticals that make up this kind of media company. So for us it's so fun. And also this kind of ties into like what we're looking for in a client. You also kind of fit the Persona of a great client for us. So that also makes it an enjoyable process.

Oh, thank you. I actually wanted to ask you about that because I was putting myself back in the shoes of when we would start a project together. And I remember always being nerve sighted, as my friend Alex would say, totally excited and also nervous. I was often stretching myself and financially, but also kind of nervous doing this collaborative process with you and your team and not knowing how it was going to turn out. And I'm going to spend all this money. What if I'm not happy? I think every client just goes through these kinds of concerns. And I remember also wanting to be a good client for you. That's my people pleaser. I'm just curious, can you kind of walk us through? How can a client or someone who's hiring you or anyone who's hiring anybody to do this level of intense work? How can somebody show up prepared as the client? How do they block off enough time? What is it that you need them to do in order to ensure a successful project?

Well, let's talk about the mindset that is best serving you and the brand that we're going to create and work on together for the next three, four, six, eight months. First off, it's going to be a long term engagement. We're gonna really get to know each other. What we like our clients to know when they're coming in is that first, it's a very collaborative process and you were great with that. So be prepared to take the time to invest in discussions, workshops, surveys. We really encourage our clients to write down their thoughts. Don't just spew them out. You know how it is when you actually write them out on paper, on your computer, they become so much more concise and you think internally to yourself about what you're trying to say and give that type of feedback and direction. Another big one that is really important for clients to know. Sometimes these fall into the camp of, like, when it comes to the rebrand, you have to understand that branding is very emotional. For one, that's what we are actually trying to convey through branding, is building a relationship through those emotional cues. So when it comes back to your brand, we get it. This is kind of like your business, baby. You might be coming to us with an existing name, an existing logo, and you probably know the name needs to change and you know, we need a rebrand, but change is hard. Just in general, every time we're about to present something, we're like, you're about to be thrown into the ice bath. You hired us to be thinking about your brand, to be authentic, but also think outside of the box. Anything new, especially the more attached we get to our current business and brand, it's just hard. It's just hard to be thrown into the ice bucket. We are also strategy first, and so we understand how you connect with your favorite brands. And that's because there's meaning and depth embedded in the design from the very beginning. If you just come to us and say, hey, copy what they're doing over here, or just put out a few logo designs without really solidifying the brand first verbally, we're just not your team. The last one is brand definition. I think a lot of people want their brand to say a lot of things. Okay. And you're only going to get two or three major brand pillars, emotional kind of states through the communication hierarchy. Okay. And what's actually going to sit in people's memory banks, we're always like, listen, we're going to do our absolute best to convey everything this brand is. But the first line of your website can't say everything. And same for your logo design. And we will figure out what core ideas get communicated through what vehicle.

Got it. Okay, that's helpful. And what about when even a client who's trying to do all those things and puts proper time aside has the right mindset? What if they hit some point, inevitable bump in the road where they lose faith in the process, or they hit a dip, or they get really busy and they're not responding? How do you get them back on track or just the relationship staying Moving in the right direction.

We try to stay positive and optimistic. Part of the journey and part of going through. We're creating your brand ip. I think people forget that maybe we're not making actual physical car engine here, but it's going to be your brand engine. There are always going to be bumps in the road, and we might not see eye to eye, but know that we're your trusted advisors. You hired us because of our decades of experience and what we're doing. And it might just take some work and some communication because we're in it for so long. We want to have a really good relationship, a relationship that's open and trusting. So the more open and trusting that we are with each other, the better the work's going to be.

We'll be right back just after this.

What are the types of clients that you would just rather not have?

I don't know if I'm just getting old or what, but this list is growing for me, as it should.

I feel like that's the wisdom of being in business. Discernment. Yeah, give us the dirt. I want to know all.

So what we've learned over the years, and this happens from time to time, one that comes to mind right away is just having too many cooks. The old saying, too many cooks in the kitchen. What I mean by this in regards here is that we've had clients in the past say, oh, hey, I got a great friend who's a super talented designer and they're working on something else for me. I might just kind of have them work on a couple of logo options. Once the strategy's done on just their end, I'm just going to do it just to see what they come up with as well. But really hard. You guys actually come up with a brand system. On the surface, you're kind of like, okay, cool, it's your company. If you want to have someone else explore stuff too, I guess that's interesting. But then in hindsight, I'm like, oh, if they're not plugged into our team and the way we work and our processes and understanding, part of the reason you're hiring us is because our team, Synergy together is a secret power. Right? It's a superpower, it's a secret sauce. It will help elevate and create whatever we're thinking to the next level. When you bring in someone who maybe hasn't been vetted or is working as, like, an outside person on a design system like this, it becomes very disjointing for the team. It can Also hurt morale. And then the client always has this leverage of saying, well, my friend did this. What do you think of this? When we're presenting our stuff and then they're actually comparing the work at the same time, but they're saying to us, oh, no, but you're owning this, you're driving this. It just gets really confusing because at the point then it's like, well, we're going to end up with a Frankenstein design at the end of this, because you've got this other person doing their own thing in an echo chamber and they are just sending you stuff and then you're wanting to plug it into what we're creating. So it just messes up the process and becomes very frustrating for the team and the morale. And what's unfortunate is a lot of times people will bring in or have other friends who are actually really good, talented designers, but there's a reason why they're on their own, right, that really comes forward. That's the kind of too many cooks scenario. I've literally been on calls where the CEO is going through some sort of moment and they say something that completely derails the conversation. And you will see everyone else on their team with those confused blank face of what just happened. Where are they going with this and what are we doing now?

We'll be right back just after this.

Many a Tumblr and a book and a blog has been about like these types of client stories. Especially in the design world. Why is it that design brings out such nightmare client stories? What's the famous one of the guy with the cat? There's one that's so notorious, Multi page word document of a guy might even be fiction. But going back and forth with a design client, oh, now I'm gonna have to Google guy with cat, horrible design client.

You know, I think that for a lot of years, and I think this is changing and this was the whole reason why I wanted to start this agency back in 2014, was because I felt that designers were the new entrepreneurs and because we're always thinking about how to take a very complex problem and reduce it down to the most concise, understandable method, whether that's visually or verbally. And I feel like that's where kind of the human centered design quote air quotes again, because I know those terms are somewhat silly now, but it's like we're always deducing to what is going to make the most sense visually, pragmatically, phonically. And so for a long time, designers were always in the back room Stuck in the back corner at ad shops at other places. And it was always like the sales reps who were glorified, or the big creative director or the cmo. And a lot of times they're given feedback and everything. But it's those really great senior level people, mid level designers who are coming, or even some of the really young guns out of design school that are coming in and they're just coming up with new, fresh stuff that no one's thought about. That takes you back to even when I was in my undergrad. When I was an undergrad, I was working for the newspaper. And when I was there, it did a lot of ad revenue. We were doing a million a year in ad revenue for a little school paper. Like, that's a pretty big deal. And I just remember I was running the advertising department on the ad production side and we were stuck in this back little corner. And when I moved up to manage the entire team that following year, I negotiated with the sales team and said, let's mix every other. Let's do a sale, let's do an account person, then a designer, account person, designer. And let's put everyone in the same area and start working, have the same energy. The account people can actually see how much goes into designing an ad and creating a great ad and the production behind it. And then the designers themselves could see how the accountants operate and the quotas they're trying to fill and the timelines that they're trying to look at. So we get a holistic idea of what the world was for each of the departments. Because all it was was back in the day was designers were stuck in the corner and they're complaining about the count people. The count people are stuck over this corner. They're complaining about the ad people. That was my first understanding of like, oh, okay, so there can be like harmony between these worlds. We don't have to be at war with each other all the time to get stuff done. That was part of my mentality when it came to starting this agency is how do we make a designer first agency where the designers, the strategists, the writers, they're the ones who are glorified and understood on our side. And they're not the ones who just kind of get like beat up. Like, they're not the ones. And that's the stigma in the back of the day. All the designers used to always get beat up and then they would slave for hours. And people don't understand, oh, it's just drawing a picture on a computer. No there's grids and there's methodology and how you make great type icon. There's so much more that goes into it and it takes hours, hours and hours of time. Any designer out there who knows sit in front of a computer for 10 hours to work on one icon, they understand the pain of how much time it takes. I think I'm just a big advocate and almost like a bulldog protector of our team in that way. That's one of our big principles at 2gether is where we protect the people who are doing the actual work because we know how much goes into it.

You were the first person to teach me about grids and the golden ratio and all these fancy numbers and things and like just so spacing. And even a designer who's tweaking like making a custom font out of a an existing font might spend five hours bending the corner of an R ever so slightly. I would also like to report back that my Google search guy with cat horrible design client was successful. Adam. The number one result is called Missing Missy. And listeners, you know I'm putting this in the show notes. It's from 2010. It is so funny. Again, I don't think it's true because I haven't reread it in a while, but he makes all these posters. The premise is that a woman wants a poster for her missing cat and then he keeps designing it and she gives feedback but the feedback is just more and more annoying and the poster gets more and more annoying.

Oh, that's awesome.

Yeah, it's so good. I also found on board Panda worst client comments turned into posters. So I really like the color but can you change it? I'm the target market and I don't like it. I know what I want when I see it. There's the look for you. Exactly right?

Yeah, exactly. There's a lot out there. And this is why I say like we really try to get to know you, your industry and your business. And that's what's so important about that beginning strategy phase because it really sets the tone of how we're going to work together as well. And we're trying to check as many boxes before we move to the next step. That's where the science comes in. This process driven steps that we have. That is what helps so we don't fall into those spiraling out comments that leave everybody kind of like looking up in the air of like where we go next.

There's been even from some of the client stories you've already told us, but it's not just one vague comment. It's probably a whole pattern of nothing is satisfying them. They're not able to give feedback. Therefore, the designers are overworking and they're on their umpteenth version. You or whoever is the touch point for that client is struggling. The clients getting frustrated in a way. I could see it becomes a vicious cycle. And I know you and your team are so good about preventing that cycle from starting, but it's very easy to see how it could.

Yeah, it happens. It happens. And that's why we try to stay positive and optimistic. There's always a solution. We're always going to figure out how to get there, or at least do our absolute best. We haven't lost a client yet. Sometimes it does take a little bit more, but that kind of falls into. We're talking about, like, we need to understand where they are at as a company. Things feel new, sometimes it doesn't feel fresh. It feels like you're being thrown into an ice bath. There's shock. Sometimes it takes a little bit for the thaw to wear off before you can actually give good feedback, too. So that's why we never put anybody on blast. We're like, hey, give us feedback right now. We're like, oh, you might need to really think on this. Sleep on it. Get back to us in a couple days, right? Let's have another conversation. We build into our timeline. We cushion in extra time for reviews, for feedback, just in case we're not aligned on something and we figure it out.

Two things that that makes me think of. One, there's always a solution. And that's what I found working with you. And in general, even in my marriage, I say in free time. My friend Christine Arailo calls it the sacred third solution. And what I found going through the design process is that maybe V1 was close, but not it. V2 was close, but not it. Then I start getting worried I'm gonna be one of your nightmare clients. But then V3 blows us all out of the water. And in a way, it was worth pressing ahead. It was worth. Cause it is like a cold plunge when you first see a design, because there's this very fuzzy vibe happening in the creator's mind or the owner's mind. It's just a fuzzy vibe, and your team is trying to take the first crack. And so it often does look vastly different because I can't convey my imagination. And then the point you said of you gotta sit with it. And I remember you telling me that more than once, sit with it. Let it simmer. It is surprising at first. It's almost like if a fashion stylist comes and gives you a new wardrobe, you look at yourself in the mirror, you're like, that's not me. I'm wearing dirty sweats every day. It just doesn't look like you. But that doesn't mean it doesn't look great. It's just that there's this jarring moment of having to sit with and imagine that new thing. And so I think sometimes there is nuance there of when it's not right yet versus oh, it's just so surprising. I have to sit with it and actually I can cozy up into this. But I think I don't imagine, you know, you've nailed it, because at least in my experience as the client, it's like, this is it. Hallelujah. You know, you start hearing angels singing because it really clicks when it works.

Yeah, this happens a lot more in like the blank canvas phase. If a client's in the blank canvas, there are going to be maybe some more iterations because we're taking something that was an idea and making it concrete. And it's not always what you think it's going to be or what it's going to feel like. So it might take a few versions to go through and we bucket that in. I mean, that's why there's a certain price point, because we are creating digital art that is going to be used as a marketing vehicle. Right. And it's your personal ip. So there's a lot of things that we are also trying to check off as we're creating them. And we want them to be artistic and pleasing. And we're checking up all the scientific checkboxes that like, this is going to be easy to read at this size and that size and the colorways are gonna work well together across digital and print. And there's all these other things we have to look at. That's why we bucket in like this might take two or three rounds to get there. That's all part of the process.

Even in book cover design, what's strange to think about is that it has to look good as a 1 inch thumbnail. And that's the way the majority of people are going to encounter a book cover for the first time nowadays. It's not gonna happen in the bookstore. I, to this day still haven't seen free time in the wild in a bookstore on the shelf, even though we paid to have it in airports and such. So it's like, how do you design A cover that looks great when you hold the physical product and it looks great blown up online. But then most people, I don't even know what percentage, 80, 90% are gonna see it for the first time in a search result on an online retailer. And it'll be one inch. Does it translate at that size?

That's still kind of like a new thing. You gotta remember, App Store only came out in 2007. It's a new thing that now we have to think about how this gonna look as a little thumbnail online. How's the spine gonna look if it's sitting within a bookshelf? How's the front of it gonna look if it's being presented in an airport gift shop? There's a lot of things to take into consideration. Budget, as you understand print methods, different legibility and visibility, colors for the type. And people might be like, oh, that's just a book cover. People are now starting to understand, like, oh, this is much harder than I thought it would be.

My budget is just loading. Please wait. Beach ball.

I can't create anything new. I found the Doe logo myself. I don't know who designed it. I gotta reach out to them so I can if I try to publish anything. But that was a good find, though.

It was a great find. I love it.

Yeah, it just conveyed how I was feeling. Gotta build up those coffers again. Oh, my goodness. Well, so fun to chat. As always, you get to offer a third permission slip. So based on this conversation, if you could give them permission to do something differently or drop something altogether, what would it be?

You get five minutes to judge the crap out of anything you want and then let it go.

That's hilarious. I love it. No one's given anything like that permission before.

I like it. I get to be the Grumpy Old Man. This is the Grumpy Old man podcast version today.

So good. 5 minute permission slip to judge for 5 minutes, be as critical as you want.

Anything you want. Anything. Anything. And then drop the mic and walk away. You're good.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter. Ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always?