359: “You can’t give what you don’t have” — Expecting Greatness While Practicing Acceptance with Nataly Kogan

This episode is brought to you by Nespresso Gift Magical Mornings with Nespresso Vertuo Pop Compact and stylish, Vertuo Pop is made to meet every morning coffee craving. From espresso to coffee, hot or iced at the click of a button. And celebrate the season with Nespresso's limited edition coffee flavors, sweet almond and hibiscus, cinnamon and candied tamarind and festive double espresso Magic in the making Shop the holiday gift collection exclusively@nespresso.com having someone expect excellence from you feels really great. It feels really great because it tells you that you are capable of it. And I just think that that's one of the gifts we can give each other is to expect greatness from each other. And that doesn't mean over efforting or over delivering or over giving or perfectionism, which is where we take means that I think we each have a lot to give.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at we go.

Welcome back Pivoters. I am so excited to bring you today's guest, Natalie Kogan. Natalie is a leading expert on emotional fitness and leadership and a longtime entrepreneur, author and sought after keynote speaker. As a former refugee from the former Soviet Union, she began her American journey in the projects non welfare learning English by watching tv. Despite starting from those challenging circumstances, she achieved remarkable success in her career reaching top positions at McKinsey Microsoft VC firm and even founding five startups and tech companies. After all that and experiencing the resulting burnout, she transformed her approach to life and work. Today she's the founder of Happier Inc. She hosts the awesome Human Podcast and we're talking about just few of her influential books including the awesome Human Project and now the brand new awesome Human Journal. Natalie, welcome to the show.

Oh my goodness. Thank you. What an introduction. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

It's so great to have you here. I want to start with a kind of geeky technical question. You say at the start of the awesome Human Journal that you are self conscious about the hand drawing element of it and it does have these really essential qualities, this organic hand done nature. So I was wondering, when you create a journal or a book like that, what software did you use to create the whole thing, essentially through your handwriting. Like, I just think it's such a great way to approach a book or a journal.

Oh, my God, I love that question. Okay, so I'll give a immediate tactical answer. So I have to open my iPad for this because I don't remember names of anything. But I want to tell you about this program that I use to write notes. It's called Procreate, and it's brilliant. So I draw on it, I take notes in it. So Procreate is the program that I use to handwrite and illustrate the entire journal. I was talking to my publisher about creating a journal based on my book, inspired by my book, the awesome Human Project, because the book was doing so well and I'm all about practices. So we're like, oh, let's make a journal. And literally in the middle of that conversation, I have this idea. I'm like, ooh, why don't I handwrite and illustrate the whole thing? And my publisher is incredible. I've done so many books with them, and they're really committed to honoring the author and what the author's vision is. So they were like, sounds crazy, but great, we'll make it work. And then I hung up the zoom or the phone and I was like, omfg, what did I just sign up for? I am not a professional illustrator. I paint. But all to say, since we're talking to pivoters, I like to take leaps. I don't like to think things through, or sometimes I try to think things through and it doesn't work. I share that story as we dive in the journal. I love the way it came out. I love that I hand wrote it. Someone said, it's like a love letter from me to them. One of the readers. I love that it was really hard to do, but I love that I just leapt into that crazy idea to handwrite the whole thing.

Totally. Was it hard to edit and work on because of that? Like, normally publishers work in Microsoft Word and track changes and just seems like such an interesting approach and project.

Yes. Like I said, I'm immensely grateful for my amazing publisher because they had to do a lot of extra work to make it work. Like, they had to edit off of, like, a hard proof off of a printed out page. And then I had all these extra layers because they would just literally make edits by hand or suggestions. And then I would have to go and redraw draw the file. So it was absolutely, like, I bit off way more than I thought I was biting off. But, like, I said, I think there's such value to taking leaps in our life. If I sat and thought it through, I wouldn't have done it. I wouldn't have been like, this is too much of a mess, too much of a process. My publisher, me, blah, blah, blah. And I love that I did it. I wanted the journal to feel like it's something your best friend made for you. And my whole vision for it is you become your own good friend as you go through it. And the closest I can make it feel that way is if it's handwritten and hand drawn, because your best friend's not going to be typing things for you. So I love the outcome, and I've gotten such incredible feedback, and people can't believe I did the whole thing by hand. But it was definitely a leap that I am thankful I didn't think through.

In the journal and in the book, you describe your own journey through burnout and specifically this early arc of your career, thinking that achievement would get you to some type of nirvana. And I can so relate to that. I felt like achievement was the answer, too, in my early career. And then you had this, as you said, debilitating burnout where you almost lost everything. What pulled you out of that? I mean, I know in a way it's these books, and you've given us all the tools, but what were some of the first steps that you took just to even be able to get to the tools that you're sharing now?

I love that question. You know, it's like the most common question that I get when I do, like, a keynote or a workshop. How did you get from there to here? Because I'm really open book. I share a lot about what happened and how difficult it was. And when I say almost lost everything, I really mean that. Like, I was shut down the company I'd built. I didn't think my marriage would hold. Everything that was meaningful to me was disappearing. And I would say it's two things that got me from there to here. The first was I made a decision that I had struggled enough, that I had suffered enough, I couldn't take it anymore, and I wanted to feel better. And it might sound like a simple thing, but it is the most monumental thing in the world. And, you know, I do a lot of work. I coach senior executives and leaders, and I often ask them this question, like, what makes you feel good in your work? And they start telling me all these external things, like, my team values me, or I help move us forward, whatever. And I say, no, you're telling me things you accomplish. I want you to tell me what feels good in your work or life. And they don't know. I didn't know. Because never in a million years did I ever pause in my life to think about feeling good. I did things that were hard. I did things I thought I should. I did things that feel difficult or felt accomplished. I never thought about what feels good. And so that was the first giant step of just making this decision. That I don't want to just suffer through life, that I want to figure out how to feel better. The second thing was starting to work through some of these really ingrained stories that I'd come to believe about myself. These mindsets that actually kept me trapped in burnout and overwhelm and exhaustion. And this was the really hard part. And I do offer some of these tools in the journal. But it's things like, first of all, just becoming aware that there's these stories we tell ourselves that are not true, but that feel very true. And some of my stories that got me into that state of struggle and burnout. Where life is meant to be a struggle. It's just how it is. Life is really hard. You're supposed to struggle. Actually struggling is good. When you're struggling, it means you're doing something important. Another story was, it is really selfish to spend any money or time just on yourself. You should really be a martyr and take care of everybody else. And it's good to not feel joy. Another story was that you have to do everything alone. You are this force of nature. You're the superwoman. Everyone calls you that. Like, you just gotta tough it out. So I'm just giving examples because I hope the listeners are nodding. These stories are not unique to me. But I had to first become aware that I was trapped in these stories. And then I had to do probably the hardest work there is and start to edit them and release them and call my bullshit on them and free myself up from these stories first, before I then began to actually take the steps to do things. To take care of myself, to honor myself, to do things that felt good. Editing and releasing those stories was that necessary second step. So I'd say those were the two huge things.

You also had a friend or one of your investors who gave you an ultimatum and said if you don't go see his friend Janet, he would stop talking to you. Now, before you tell me that story and seeing Janet, I find that's very risky on the part of a friend or investor to say something like that. I Don't even know if I would be that bold. And yet, looking back, we can say he was absolutely right, and it did indeed change your life. And it was kind of almost an inciting moment of a turning point for you in this journey. And yet that takes a lot of guts to say that to a friend and to be so strong about it.

Well, you're gonna love a detail of that that I don't know if I actually write about. I think I do, but I can't remember. His name is Mike Hirschland, and he was my investor in the tech company. Happier. And also we became friends. He went through a lot of difficult stuff as we were building the company, so we got close. And I mentioned this because he was in this unique position. He was a friend who I trusted, but he was also my investor to whom I answered. As a founder of a tech company, you answer to your investors. And so he actually had this really unique position of power that no one in my family or my friends had, because I could just ignore them. I mean, for years before, people were asking me if they could help, if I was okay, and I just dismissed it all because I felt I don't need help, and it's ridiculous. So he was in this really unique position. But here's the kicker. I found out years later that my husband, Avi, called him. Now, my husband, I mentioned my marriage was in a really dark place, because when you're in a dark place, it spills into everything in your life. And Avi and I have been married for 20 years. We've been together for 23 years. We have made it through. We have found each other again. I feel like the luckiest human in the world that we made it through. But at that time, Ami and I hardly spoke for years. We were raising a child. We lived together, but we were in this really dark place. And so Avi saw this dangerous place I was in, and he called my investor, and he said, look, I'm really scared for her, and I know she won't listen to me do something. And so it was Avi who kind of reached out and pushed Mike to do it. And Mike, of course, see I wasn't okay. And so I think it was gutsy of him. But he also had this unique position of power as my investor to force a change that nobody who was just a friend could do.

Yes. And then he had the blessing of your husband in a way. So he kind of knew. And your husband, that was kind of his flag saying, we need help here. Like, maybe you can reach her whatever. Your husband had been trying. Of course, it's always hardest sometimes with the people closest, actually 100%.

And so Avi was the gift, and I'm so grateful for that. And Mike kind of forced it. And I'll never forget, he gave me this card of this woman, and he said, okay, you have to go see this woman. Her name is Janet. Until you see her three times, I'm not talking to you anymore. And he got up to leave, and I was like, oh, my God, you're so annoying. Like, stop. I don't need a therapist. Because I remember I was a force of nature, and I never had a therapist. Why would a force of nature need help? And I'll never forget he turned around and he was like, first of all, she's not a therapist. Second of all, I don't give a crap, because I am literally not talking to you until you do this. And I didn't call her right away. I, like, tried to email him. I needed things, like investory things, because the company was in trouble. Because I was in trouble. Of course the company was. But he ignored me because he was holding the Ford. He was, like, holding to his word. So I had to go see this woman, Janet. And this woman Janet became my teacher, my spiritual guy. But thank God she did not use the word spiritual for, like, years, because none of that was open in me. But she really was my guide for a few years of, like, my journey. And I'm so grateful for her and having connected with her. But I did try to kick and scream and avoid it for a while.

What were some of the most helpful things that she helped you do or realize?

At that time, there was a few. I do always want to share this. It was the first time I went to see her, and, oh, my God, I hated doing it. All the shame. And this is so pathetic. And I'm going to talk to some stranger, like, all the things. And I remember I walked in. She had this wonderful little office and this white little house, and she was sitting in this reclining chair, and I sat in the other reclining chair, and she said, well, tell me how you're doing. And I remember I sat there for, like, legit five minutes going through every single possibility in my head of, like, what was the safe thing to say to her? You know what I mean? Like, what was the least vulnerable thing I could say? Because no way was I telling the stranger how I really felt. So I went through every possibility, and I'll never forget. I said, you know, I'm just Really exhausted. And then she gave me one of the biggest gifts she's given me because she didn't tell me things were going to get better. She didn't tell me what to do. She didn't ask me questions. She just looked at me very kindly with, like, full acceptance of how and who I was in that moment and said, of course you are still. Like. I just got goosebumps saying this, because in that moment, I could put it all down for a second. Don't worry, I picked it right back up. All the stuff. I picked it right back up. And it would take a lot more work, but for a second, for a moment, I just put it down, and I felt okay to just be how I was. And that was a giant gift. And it is. Whenever I work with people, I give talks. People always tell me, oh, I have a colleague who's struggling. What can I do? Or somebody on my team? And I always tell them, of course, the instinct is to help, to cheer up, to support, to give advice. Like, I have the same instinct. It's human instinct. But please recognize that before we do that, there's this other thing we have to give, which is just helping the person feel that it's okay to feel how they are. It's not that she said, yes, Natalie, I want you to suffer. But she just let me be okay how I was. And that was a lot of what she gave me in that first year. It's funny, she never told me what to do. She didn't ask a ton of questions. It was this very intimate, natural journey. But I remember one of the other things that she said to me at the time. I was like, who cares? I don't know what this means. But then I realized one of the greatest things I internalized. She said, natalie, you're a being, not a doing.

And she said it during this one session when I was losing my mind. I was, oh, my God, Janet, what is this? I'm now this lazy sloth. I failed at life. I failed as an entrepreneur. I failed as a wife. I'm just gonna sit around and do nothing. Like, that's it. I'm so pathetic. And she was like, natalie, you're a being, not a doing. And like I said at the time, I was like, whatever. I don't know what this means next. But I think the greatest thing that she has said to me and the work ultimately that I did and that I try to lead people to do, is embodying my own humanness and worth as a human being that is separate from my contributions or achievements or all the wonderful things I give to others and just really learning to love my being. It's funny, like, I just said that sentence. It's very true. I learned to love my being. But if I was listening to this podcast five years ago, I'd be turning it off right now. I'd be like, I'm done with this. What is this, bs? So I hope no listeners just did that, but just in full transparency of where I came from. Loving your being. What? That's pathetic. There's all these imperfections you have, all these things that are wrong with you. How could you love your being? That's one of the core foundational things that I had to learn how to do and that I try to now guide people and coach people to do. We have to learn to embody and love our being before we can unleash our unique gifts in the world.

We'll be right back just after this.

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In a way, I always hated the advice, you have to love yourself before anyone else can love you. I do feel I learned to love myself better after my husband already loved me. Like, I think it works both ways, that sentiment. But I get what they're trying to say.

Just want to jump in on that because I think it's such an important thing that you're bringing up, because I remember talking about this with Janet and that my kind of path into it was more that my husband has always been. He's a very nurturing human being, very loving. But because I used to give myself zero love, I expected him to give me a hundred percent of what I needed. And nobody can give you a hundred percent of what you need. So it was never enough. So I would constantly be bickering and not enoughing it. And our relationship completely transformed when I began to give myself the love, because then I didn't have the expectation that he'd give me 100%. And I actually began to appreciate, deeply appreciate the love that he gave me. And I say this because I do think there's nuance there and that it's harder to love ourselves if we're in the absence of love from others. Absolutely. But I also think that if unless we are honoring ourselves and loving ourselves, we're always going to resent people around us for not giving us enough.

Yeah, that's so true. And going back to what you said previously too, the paradox of self help, which is that you have to accept the completely burned out, stressed out, mess self in order to even attempt what would follow. And the repair work and the refilling your own cup. So it's horrible. Like you have to accept this part of yourself that you don't like that got you into this mess just to.

Move ahead even a hundred percent, you know. And two things I want to say about that. Yes, Giant acceptance. I used to hate this word because I thought acceptance was like being passive and whatever happens happens. And I hated this word, but it's actually one of the core skills I teach now because it is the gateway to anything. Because acceptance is really about taking control. Acceptance to me is really about saying, this is how it is right now. This is how I feel right now. What is the one step that I could take to move forward. So acceptance to me is about this forward energy. So funny. Right before this podcast, I posted on LinkedIn, I'm going to read it because it's about this. The post is you can either spend energy talking about why you are where you are, or you can spend that energy taking steps to get to where you want to go. This is one of the core things that I guide my clients through that I had to understand. And I'm going to say probably I'm going to step on some toes of therapists. I know I'm about to do it because I've heard them reach out to me. When I say this before, I should just say I'm not a therapist. And a lot of therapists use my work and their work and my books and I love that. But I think that we in our world tend to spend too much energy overanalyzing like, why we are the way we are and how did we get here and all that. And that energy is the energy that we don't have to spend on this forward movement, on this, like, okay, this is how I am. I'm a burnt out mess. This is where I am. What is one thing I could do to move forward? So I think change requires this forward energy. And I think reflection is really important and learning from our past is really important. But again, I just see so many people overspend the energy and the attention on like, why am I like this? Or why is my life like this? Or how did I get here? And then we don't have that energy to go forward, to actually say, okay, this is how it is. It's a mess. This is how I feel. But what's one thing I could do to move forward? And then you do that thing and then you say, okay, what's one more thing I could do to move forward? My things, by the way, just to be like fully transparent. I started by googling how to feel better. I am not making this up. I didn't know. I just googled and then I would print out the Google search and I'd come to Jan. I'd be like, okay, what do I do? So, like, I didn't know, but I remember like a couple months in and I wrote about this in my first book, Happier Now. I said, okay, I'm gonna do three things every day to like, feel a little better. I'm gonna take a walk, I'm gonna go to yoga or Pilates, whatever. And we have this little room. It's like this cornered, screened in porch. I'm gonna sit in this room and read a couple pages out of a book. Those were my things. These are not revolutionary things. Okay? These are like pretty basic things, but for me they were giant. But I call them my daily anchors and I started to vary them. But every day I'd be like, okay, I feel awful. This is how I am. What are three things I could do today to feel a little better? And that's how I got here, by doing the things I could do. And so thank you for coming to my TED Talk about change. But I just feel very strongly about this that we tend to spend too much energy analyzing why I am the way I am and not enough energy. Like, this is how I am. This is how it is. How do I move forward? What's one step I could take?

Caroline Meiss, I remember reading many years ago, she calls it woundology, where we lead with the wound but then we're sort of connected. And yes, there's wounded healer energy. And I know, thank goodness, like, mental health is a bigger part of the conversation now, and there's so many more resources. And I completely connect with what you're saying, which is also, like, don't just live there. Take these tiny steps. One of the ones that I loved hearing in your story is you say it's never too late. You begin to paint when you were 40, and now there's all this joyful merch on your website. There's sweatshirts. Your watercolors are on the COVID of the books. I mean, that seems like you really gave yourself a permission slip not just to do it, but to, like, declare it. It's on sweatshirts on your website. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

I love that.

Thank you. That means so much to me that you bring that up. It's a giant part that took a really long time to unco. But again, just to be really transparent, it wasn't overnight. I'd always wanted to paint. I never gave myself permission. Why? Because, well, that felt like an indulgent waste of time. And also, what does that have to do with me being a successful entrepreneur or a great mom? Nothing, therefore, no. And so it was in, like, when everything in my life was on pause in that first year of really dark burnout. I was turning 40 and everything was bad. And some encouragement from my friend. I was like, okay, I'm gonna paint. And I did the most ridiculous thing that I had ever done. I signed up for a painting retreat in Tuscany. Why is that ridiculous? Cause it costs money. And I just was this person. I used to tell myself the story that spending money on myself is selfish. Turns out the true story was feeling joy is selfish. But we can talk about that separately. So I was like, okay, I'm turning 40. My life is over. Let me go to Tuscany. I think I was trying to be like Diane Lane and under the Tuscan sun when she gets divorced and she goes to Tuscany and buys his house.

Best movie.

Yeah. Thank you.

Yes.

The only thing is, she should have taken a painting class. When I watch the movie now, I've seen it, like, roughly a billion times. She really should have gone to a painting class because I really feel like a field of sunflowers. So I have this image. I go to Tuscany to this watercolor workshop. And because I leave, as we talked about, I didn't read the fine print. It was for semi professional watercolor artists. So here's me and 20 semi professional watercolor Artists from England. The good news is they just spent the whole time making fun of my American accent and ignoring how bad I was at watercolor. So it was fantastic. But I came back, and I started to paint. And I first did it in, like, secret. And I mean that, like, in our basement, we have this tiny little room, and I did it. There's. I mean, my family knew, but I didn't talk about it. It was, like, this little thing in secret, taking time for myself. And then I would start to bring some of the paintings up, and we would start putting them on our walls. And it was this, like, magical experience of watching that. It was healing me because it was bringing me joy. And it was Started to heal me and my family. And then my art was on our walls. And then I, like, remember the first time I shared it on Instagram? I deleted it. And then I shared it again, and I deleted it. Then I would start sharing with my community. I have 60,000 people on my email list. I was like, okay, I'm doing this thing. And I would start talking about it, and it took years to own it, to embody the artist, part of myself, to share it, and then finally put it on hoodies. And when I give keynotes, my slides have my art in the background and my books, as you said, my art's on the COVID and I just do it for joy. People tell me, you should do a show. You should sell your art. Like, I'm not even doing it for that. It's just who I am. And now it's this thing. It's part of my life. And I want everyone to hear that nothing is overnight, that it is this unveiling of who we are. It is this process. But it only happens if we just keep taking those steps forward that feel aligned. I didn't start painting because I went to therapy again. I feel like therapists are gonna hate me. I didn't do talk therapy about why I haven't painted for six months. I sort of accepted this is what I've always wanted to do, and I haven't done it. What's one thing I could do to move forward? Okay, I'm gonna buy a couple canvases on sale at Blick and just start doing it. And I just think that I encourage. And if people can, like, pick up the energy through their ears, we have to take our energy and direct it forward in a way that feels aligned and things will start to unfold. But it doesn't mean overnight, and it doesn't mean it's easy or all Pleasant. But, boy, am I happy that art is part of my life.

It's just so cool to hear your story. You also say, don't try to be anything you're not. And I'm wondering if and how this still shows up for you today. Because sometimes I'll catch myself bending over backwards to impress someone, and then only afterward, I feel kind of hungover and I go, what was I doing? It's one thing to sort of be social, but then I'll realize, oh, my gosh, I'm trying to impress them. And I'm curious to hear how this shows up. Don't try to be anything you're not.

You're going to get a very vulnerable answer. Because this has been something very raw and fresh for me that I've been working through starting, like, mid last year. I realize recently, about mid last year that I've kind of bifurcated myself. I'm going to explain. So I spent 20 years in, like, finance and tech and usually being the only woman in the room. And I have being really spunky and having to go toe to toe to some of these obnoxious bros. And I have a lot of alpha energy. I'm spunky. I'm like, that's who I am. I love being that. And then I went through my burnout and the whole journey, and then I became the teacher. I teach, I write, I give keynotes, I teach, I coach. I teach people how to embody their best self, essentially. And in becoming this teacher, I embodied this other part of myself, this very kind and understanding and loving teacher, which is also me. But I left the other part behind, the alpha, the spunky, the strong, the singer kind of me, it hasn't been here. I kind of left it over there, making this motion like I've bifurcated my life. And so I have started to feel, like I said, last year was a big year for me to realize this, that in things that I say on stage or in my emails or even in my books or in my social, they're true to me, but they're only true to this part of me, that I'm actually not bringing that full honesty into my work and that there's a little bit of fear almost, that people now see me as this giving, kind, understanding teacher. And how are they going to react to the fact that I, when I give them some tough love and I tell them that, oh my God, enough complaining. That for me is a big area of my inner work, is to really connect and embody my fullness of who I am. Which is all these different facets, like, in everybody else. And to really boldly and openly speak that way, I don't just mean speak, but bring that into every facet of my work and life, because I actually think I can be of greater service if I am fully in that truth. But that's a place where I've just had this recent realization that I'm only taking about half of Natalie Truth into the world.

That's so interesting. And even what you're saying here, I won't even call them baby steps, but it's like, sorry if I make the therapists mad.

Yeah, exactly.

I have the business police or the personal development police, and you might have the therapy police, who are, like, ready to pounce on what you're saying. And yet we can also hear the part of you that feels strongly and is like, sorry, therapy police. This is my personal take. And you can disagree, and that's okay. But I see you and hear you putting yourself a little farther out there to say I disagree with some of what I'm seeing. And here's the approach that worked for me. Take it or leave it. But I'm gonna say it.

You put it beautifully. It's a hundred percent that it's not from a place of judgment of anything. Actually. I was on a podcast recently, and the host was a therapist, and he did this really cool thing where one of his listeners can send in a letter, he announces who the guest is, and ahead of time, a listener can send in a question. It was really cool. And the listener, what he wrote about was that he's been in therapy for a long time, and he feels like he's just spinning in childhood stories. And he's like, do I have to keep going back to my childhood to move forward? And of course, now you know what my answer was. And I was like, no, I actually don't think so. I think you just begin where you are today. And this wonderful therapist who was the host, he very kindly and very nicely, he was. Let me give you my take. Here's why I think it can be useful. I realized, like you said, it doesn't come from a place of judgment, but I think that it is really important for us to be honest enough with ourselves, to really own what we believe and to be able to share it. And that's my work that I've realized, not doing that fully. I'm holding it back. I'm trying not to offend.

I have some folks in my community. I do a lot of free things that I love to offer to my community. I have a lot of folks at nonprofit teachers. They don't have a lot of money. So I try to offer free webinars and podcasts and I look at my email every week. It's free and it has a lot of value. And I've had some people, they come to my webinars for years maybe, and they're connected with me, they reach out and they're stuck in the same place. They've received all the advice and all the tools, but they're just not willing to give up like where they are. And I've realized I'm not doing them a service by not calling them out on it. I'm actually not doing the thing I want to be doing by being this nice, understanding teacher that's not actually honoring what I want to be doing. And so that's my big area of work. I think it's probably true for everyone, but for me, especially as a teacher and a coach and a speaker or it's just really important to have that integrity to the fullness of what I have to offer. And I've realized that I haven't been doing that and I want to take steps to do that.

We'll be right back just after this.

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There was a friend whose therapist said maybe it was after one or two times of not doing the homework, the commitment who said, if you don't do it by the next time we meet, I'm gonna drop you as a client. And it's exactly what that person needed. Exactly what they needed. They were so happy that someone finally was gonna hold their feet to the fire, that they didn't want to lose the therapist or the coach. I think it was a coach lose their respect. They wanted to do good for them. They loved having this deadline. And I remember thinking, even then, wow, that was so bold of the coach to say, if you don't do it this time, we're done. And now they've been working together for probably at least another year after that moment. And I'm sure more homeworks have been dropped, but that's okay. But the coach kind of had their moment and that strength was so valuable to the client.

Yes. You know, I'm about to do this little five week course coaching program for my community and I send an accountability email at the end of the week. And I respond, like, when people tell me what they've done, I respond. And if I notice a pattern, I respond and I let them know. But this was the thing you said last week too. And so often I get a thank you. You know what? Thank you. Thanks for calling that out. And that's, I think, the other thing. And this is pulling a lot of connecting a lot of threads for me. I think we don't expect enough of ourselves. There's a controversial statement for you. I think that we're capable of so much, and I think that we in some areas, in some ways don't expect enough greatness from ourselves. And I come from a Russian education system. It's a very different system because a lot is expected of everybody. I don't know how it is now. I have no idea. But there's a lot of things wrong with Russia. But the education system is not one of the. I came here, I was three years ahead in math and all the sciences. A lot is expected of you. I was also a dancer in Russia and I danced as part of this, like, youth group kind of thing. Semi professional, four hours a day, practice five times a week, that kind of thing. Performing in like Carnegie hall, like, halls and stuff. Perfection was expected. That was the only acceptable standard. And I'm just gonna say that is not what I'm suggesting. I think that's wrong because we were beaten literally if we weren't perfect. And I'm not advocating for that. Okay. Just for the record, however, having someone expect excellence from you feels really great. It feels really great because it tells you that you are capable of it. And I just think that that's one of the gifts we can give each other, is to expect greatness from each other. And that doesn't mean over efforting or over delivering or over giving or perfectionism, which is where we take means that I think we each have a lot to give. And it's this gift of love that we can give each other to expect a lot. My daughter is 19 years old now. Mia. She is my light. She's my guide. Every book is dedicated to her because she's been my guide in a way that I've wanted to break some of these old patterns so she doesn't pick them up. We're super close. We just did a podcast together. She was on my podcast last week, two weeks ago. And I bring that up because I have always told her, like, I expect great things from you, not because you owe it to us. You know this expression like, so Mia goes to Wesleyan University, where my husband and I both went. We met there. She's doing something super different. She's pre med. I was econ. But there's this expression like fill your parents shoes or whatever. I'm sure I'm getting this cliche wrong. I get them all wrong. But I remember when she started college, you know, I graduated first in my class. I like pretty well known on campus because I overworked myself to death. But someone said to her, oh, you have big shoes to fill. Your mom's a big deal. And I said, no, you have your own big shoes to fill. You're not filling my shoes, but you have a lot that you can give and I expect excellence from you. And I just think that it's one of the ways that our kind of societal pendulum maybe has sworn. It's like, ah, don't worry about it, it's fine. It's just human. Yes, we're all human and no one's expecting perfection. But I just think that feeling that we can expect excellence from each other and greatness, I think it's actually a positive, a gift.

Yeah, there was this great Malcolm Gladwell piece, I'll try to find it and put it in the show notes where he talked about how he's a difficult writer or author to work with. But. But there's a difference between being difficult and being mean and toxic. Being difficult is this commitment to excellence. It is a fierce commitment to quality. And I resonated with that so much because I'm ultra meticulous when I work on my books. There are certain things I don't mind being an imperfectionist about. This podcast being one of them, but the books. I am psychotic with my attention to detail. I am a Perfectionist about the books. I didn't want a single hyphenated word on the right hand margin of any pages of free time. I was crazy. I didn't want words breaking at the bottom of page. I had so many specific things, not just what I wrote, but how it showed up on the page. I agree. It is a good thing to pick the projects that we want to expect greatness from ourselves on. We can't control the outcome necessarily, but we can rise to that occasion. And it feels good to do that. It's not sustainable to operate at 150 out of 100 at all times. But for sprints, for big projects that we care a lot about, I'm with you.

I think it's just important to differentiate greatness and excellence from perfection because they're not the same thing. First of all, there is no perfection. I just want to call it out on that. Perfection is depth. Perfection means completeness. I did a podcast on this. I went and looked it up. I looked up the source of the word. It means completeness. Do we really want to be complete? I mean, then it's the end. If you're complete, then what? Then, like, it's over, right? So I think it's really important to separate greatness and excellence from perfection. And I think just to add like a little side to that. I don't think it's just about projects we care a lot about or books or whatever. I think it's just on a daily basis how we are with ourselves. Again, it's about loving ourselves and knowing ourselves. But loving yourself can also mean get off the couch and go exercise or stop complaining and make a change. That's also loving yourself because you're loving your full, best version of yourself. And that's. I guess what I mean. Like, I just see a lot of this conversation around self love and self acceptance that veers into this direction of don't challenge yourself. And I don't actually think that's love. If I always told my daughter, everything's okay, how you do it, you're perfect, I'd be a horrible mother because I'm not actually helping her uncover her greatness.

One of the things you talk about, there's this cool word that I learned from you, a hole on. Or you can pronounce it. I don't know if I'm pronouncing right. Hole on Holon, where a thing is a hole in and of itself, and it's also part of a larger hole. So in the journal, you give the example of A bicycle wheel is complete in and of itself and it's also part of a bicycle. And the bicycle can't function without the wheel. And the point you're making is you can't give what you don't have. So it's kind of a way to drop the self care guilt, that self care is vital to all of the topics that we've covered up till now. I'm wondering if you want to just speak to that concept of the holon or There's a lot out there on self care, so maybe if you have even a contrarian take or the Natalie, the unique, bold Natalie take on that.

Well, the holon, I love that you brought that up. That's my favorite thing. So a holon is actually a concept in biology, like atom and molecule. So holon is something that exists. It's fully its own entity and it's an essential part of something else. So it comes from nature, comes from biology. I didn't make it up. A bicycle is a good example. Right? Bicycle wheel, it's a thing in and of itself, but it's an essential part of the bicycle. And when I read about this in science, I was like, oh my God. This is how I can articulate to people and to myself why this idea of self care is selfish is complete bullshit because we're all whole on. So think about it. How often do we think like, oh, well, I feel guilty about taking time for myself because my team needs me, or my kids need me, or my family needs me. And we create this reality in which is I am separate from my team or I am separate from my family. And that is not true. You are a colon. So you are your own person, obviously, but you're this essential part. Picture yourself in the center of a circle. You're this essential part of your team, of your family, of your friend group. And therefore that if you feel depleted and exhausted and overwhelmed, that is what you're giving to the rest of the group. That means you're snapping and lacking patience and you're actually spreading. Human emotions are contagious, so you're actually spreading that into the group. And I just think it's so powerful to recognize that because I think a lot of this, this self care, selfish stuff, or I feel guilty about taking time for myself, comes from this place where we see ourselves as separate from each other. But we're not. We're not spiritually, we're not energetically, we're not physically. You know this. You meet a person before they open their mouth, you get a Feeling we sense each other, it's one of our core evolutionary skills, is to sense the other person. The reason we're so good at sensing each other, by the way, is to learn, like, can I trust this person or not? Basically, safe or not. So we sense each other's emotions, we pick them up. Take me as an example, when I used to just completely deny myself joy, deny my self love and care. What do you think I brought to my family or my team? It's not that I want it to be that way, but I wasn't a good listener. I wasn't patient. I snapped all the time. I often had this really dark cloud around me, and not all the time. I was also like, cheerful and energetic, but I had a lot of that. I didn't want to bring it to them, but I can't help it. To me, that's the way to bust through this idea that taking time for yourself is selfish is to realize you're not a separate self. You're an integral part of other groups, other essential selves in your life. Your team, your friends, your community, your family. When I hear that voice in my head and it happens, one of the things that's very important for me is quiet mornings. It's like my sacred time. And like, I can't always do it. Sometimes I have to do a talk or whatever. But most of the time, like, I don't like to talk before noon. And that's my thinking time, creative time, writing time. And it took me a really long time to like, first of all acknowledge this is what I need. And then I had to say it to my husband and my daughter because this includes weekends. Guys, I really don't want you to talk to me before noon. I need to be quiet. I felt like such a. To be honest, I was like, oh my God. Like, I love my husband and my daughter and we love hanging out. What am I this, like, don't talk to me. But I also realized that by honoring that in myself, I bring the best of me into our group as a family. So then I show up on the weekend full of light and energy, and I am happy to be there. And I am in myself with a loving way versus if they talk to me all morning because I think I should be there. It's selfish to not talk. Then I'm snappy and irritable. And so this idea that we are separate from each other is at the core of why this concept of like, self care, selfish even exists. There's no separate self. Yes, you are your own being, but you're a Holon. There's no separatedness. So if you are denying yourself joy, denying your self care, you're literally denying that to every group you're a part of.

So well said, Natalie. If you could leave listeners with one tiny next step, and there's so many good ones in the journal, what would you want to offer.

From the whole journal, the awesome human journal? Is there one that you're just delighted by or that you find most helpful or you love giving out?

Yes, I loved, loved your questions. I just want to tell you before I share the note to self, I do so many interviews and this has been one of the most thoughtful, honest, raw, hopefully very interesting. It's been very interesting for me, again, to upset some people. I've done a lot of podcast interviews where I'm so bored because I'm just having to regurgitate. I know the things from my book or my bio and I'm like, ask me a question about something interesting. So I just want to tell you this feels like a gift you gave me. Thank you. And I hope it's a gift to the listeners. But one of my favorite notes that's in the journal, I'm not going to get it exactly right. But don't let the leftovers of yesterday spoil the freshness of today. And I really love that because I love studying neuroscience and our brain has a lot of inertia, the human brain. And that means if you felt really crappy yesterday, it's really easy to carry that through, to keep thinking about it, oh, I had a bad day and carry that through. And I just love this idea that every day is a gift and it's an opportunity to start fresh. And so, yeah, don't let the leftovers of yesterday spoil the freshness of today.

I love that. Thank you so much. And it really has been a joy to connect. And thank you for going to all these places with me. It's probably because it's on my mind, too. So I just really appreciate you sharing where you're at with your process and all the different cohorts of police out there, of which I have many.

That's a term I haven't heard before. I'm gonna use that. I love it.

My two are the personal development police and the business best practices police that tell me I'm a terrible CEO, which by their standards I am. But they're all in my head, of course.

Therefore, there are stories they could be told to shut it.

Absolutely.

Thank you. It's been a giant gift, like I said I deeply appreciate your depth and thoughtfulness and I think your questions really honored what we talked about. You asked for my truth and excellence versus just a stock answer. So thank you for that.

My goodness, thank you for that reflection. You're so welcome. A big huge thanks to everybody who's here listening. I'll put all the links in the show notes and make sure to grab your copy of the book the awesome Human Project and of course the brand new awesome Human Journal.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening, listening to, and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.

Foreign.

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