360: 📦 Unpacking a Big Business Decision and Dissolving Related Doubts with Adrian Klaphaak

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These things are not without doubt, they're not without loss, they're not without major loss sometimes, or major doubt or major concerns. And I hear you saying the sadness, the loss, the doubt. And yet you're still doing it because something deeper is moving you. You're listening to that.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your of the Pivot Podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Welcome back Pivoters. We are here in a little bit of a bittersweet episode because I'm with my very first coach and now longtime Pivot Podcast collaborator Adrienne Clapack. This is our 12th episode and it is the last one for a little while. You'll hear why in a moment, but first I'll introduce Adrian. He's a coach, purpose guide, entrepreneur, and founder of a path that fits career and life coaching. His work helped me so much in the early days. He's one of the people that inspired me to go to coach training at all and make it a huge part of my career at Google and the years afterward. And this rounds out our dozen of the Pivot by Career Pathfinder Spotify playlist, which I'll put in the show notes. Adrienne also has an incredible flagship Career Pathfinder course that Pivot listeners get a special discount on. So apply promo code Pivot if that might be helpful to you this year. Adrian, welcome back to the show.

Thank you Jenny. It's great to be here and it is bittersweet being the final episode for a little while, hopefully not forever. And I really want to thank you and everybody listening for the opportunity to share my work and engage in these conversations. I've really enjoyed it, grown a lot, met some great new people. So thank you.

When you first came on for episode one, we didn't know that it was going to become 12. We actually just scheduled three to start, and it was a long time coming because I'd had the show for a while and you'd never been on, but you weren't a podcast regular. It's not like you have your own show and you're guesting all the time. What has it been like for you? And our topics, the things we've done, have really been kind of vulnerable in terms of personal sharing out there with the world and with the many wonderful pivot listeners. How has that journey been for you of just putting so much more of yourself out there this last year?

It felt natural, actually. Surprisingly so. I was nervous in the beginning, was preparing a ton for the first handful of episodes, and then the more that we did it, the more that I would still prepare. But I trust that whatever was alive and organically unfolding was gonna lead us and that I'd be able to draw on my almost two decades of experience doing this. And so it's been empowering and it's been a lot of fun. And I also feel like I'm even more current with the landscape of what's happening in career and career development right now. Because, Jenny, you are so on it all the time in your knowledge and what you read and digest. So I also feel like it's brought my coaching with clients and the way that I run my business and some of the decisions I make to the next level. So I'm grateful for that as well.

And did you have any vulnerability hangovers as we went?

There were a couple. I can't remember the specifics, but, yeah, definitely there were a couple. Like, whoa, did I really say that? You know, did we really go there? And I think you and I connected offline a couple times after those. Usually it was mutual. That was comforting to know that we were going into the vulnerable territory together that maybe we'd go to, like, on the sofa in person, but not on air, not for anybody and everybody to hear. But, yeah, it was good for me. It kind of stretched like nothing bad happened. I've had a bunch of new clients and participants in the Career Pathfinder coaching program come through as a result of this. So it's all been really positive, expansive for me.

Yeah, it's been so fun. And I enjoy having a recurring co host. And I promise listeners, we will, like, move into more topics for today, not just talking about the two of us, but I'll say that there's something nice about not starting from scratch every time and building. And you and I have so much trust built from knowing each other 15 years, if not more. And so, yeah, I'm really grateful and I'm grateful to everybody who submitted questions in the past, came to our live recording, left feedback, left reviews every time we would do these episodes with your facilitation. And we did get really great feedback. So it's been a highlight for me. And I have to say, I do think it kept me going with the Pivot podcast, because now in 2024, we're turning into the ninth year, and I had been wondering for a while, what do I do? Should I keep it going? This is a long time. It's hit various growth plateaus. In November, I got a download that I needed to pause everything, or at least the main things in my business where I was spending the most time and energy and even money. And that includes the Pivot and FreeTime podcast and my private community. So between podcasting and private community, having those over nine years now, I'm actually, I mean, you're getting a sneak peek here, listeners, but I'll be announcing on 22424 that I'm going to pause those shows, these, including Pivot. And so you just really helped bring me through that last year of kind of having fun with it. Renewed energy and enthusiasm. And once I got that download, I also realized, okay, as hard as that is to stop something that seems to be going well, it also feels like the right time to take a step back and reflect.

Yeah, absolutely. I think everything has its natural sort of life cycle. It's definitely been a win, win. It sounds like a win, win, win for the listeners, for you, me, over this last year, and I find myself really curious, what is it that's behind, that's moving you in this new direction to pause the podcasts in your private community and go into wherever it is that you're going?

Yeah. And I don't have a destination in mind. So let me start by saying that some people have asked, what are you going to do with your newfound time? And I don't know. That's part of what I'm exploring. There's even a very practical financial component, which is that because my speaking gigs slowed down so much the last four years, I'm sure it's my fault or like I didn't go out and chase it. There's so much maybe I could have, would have, should have done that I didn't to land more speaking gigs, but that used to really keep the lights on in my business, in my household, and would kind of fund these podcasts as a passion project within My business, that always cost more money than they made. And I had big hopes and dreams that if I would double down on podcasting, as I did for the last two years, producing 14 episodes a month, at one point, I was spending 3,600amonth on production, which for 14 episodes is not bad. That's actually a great rate. Later, I had to downshift to $2,600 a month, but still, the podcasts were costing more than they made. And there came a point at the end of last year where I just realized I actually just can't sustain this right now without speaking gigs coming in, at least one gig a month. And as much as I wanted my shows to kind of break through, and I really did believe the big leap, like, find your zone of genius, do what you love, and the money will follow. And it's been a kind of confusing time because I feel like I did do what I loved and I did double down on podcasting. And it is a very tough industry. It's getting tougher even for the biggest shows and the biggest networks, they're doing big layoffs and shutting a lot of shows down. So I'm not alone in this, and I'm not unique in this. And yet it was kind of shocking to realize I didn't do what it took to grow fast enough, and I just can't sustain it without something shifting. So part of the stopping my private community and the two shows is to do something differently because my business was kind of letting me know, hey, something isn't working, and we're not going to tell you what, but we need you to give yourself more time to think. So if I'm not conducting four to six interviews a week and preparing sometimes hours at a time for each guest, I think in that quiet space, new answers will hopefully emerge.

You're courageous for listening and also for stepping into the unknown. Like, I thought you might have a destination, and you said, no, there's no destination. I just know that what I've been doing, something needs to change, and I'm going to create the space to find that. One of the things I'm really curious about and what you're sharing comes from a question that I get so much from clients and participants in my group coaching program. And that question is, how do you know when the next step is clear? And for you, I hear that you don't know what is next in your work, what you're going to create or offer next, but you do know clearly that the next step is this. This pause. And so it's that clarity that I'm curious to ask you about is how. When did you know? I need to wrap these things up. I need to take this pause for myself as a next step. How did that become clear?

Yeah, happy to share. And let me say, I. I wish I knew where I was going. I'm actually really getting sick of it. I feel like a high school quarterback still talking about my life and business before the pandemic. It's honestly at times infuriating and other times totally maddening and other times totally despair inducing to just still feel like I'm walking forward through quick stand or not even. I love mixing metaphors I don't even know to describe. I just picture my legs are like in the thickest mud and I have no clue where I'm going. It's taking way longer than I would like to have clarity. And I'm okay with uncertainty. The whole point of Pivot was getting comfortable with uncertainty. But the financial precarity that's coming with it right now, because I'm the breadwinner and because I'm the business owner, that's what's killing me. I wouldn't care as much for my identity if I didn't, like, have my next cool project. But at a certain point, the bank accounts are just yelling at me. And yet, when I go look at Slash Careers pages, I wrote a whole article called Slash Careers on rolling in do. I don't feel clear that that's the answer either. And so to your point, how do I know it was time to pause the community and the podcast? One day I was taking Ryder out in the morning and I got a download. And what I mean by that is a voice or an inner knowing that was very clear. And it just said, stop everything. And at first I just thought, am I in a bad mood? Maybe I'm just grumpy today. You know, these things are making me pretty irritated. And in free time, I open the book talking about burn it all down mode. And so I thought, is this just a phase? What I did next got me to the clarity that you asked about in this question is I tried on the decision. So I just said, all right, I might be grumpy, or this might be what I'm meant to do. I might indeed be meant to pause the things that are taking up 80% of my time, money, energy, and attention. And if so, what would that look like? So before I told anyone, before I made any decisions, I just imagined, what would it look like if I were to stop the two shows? When could I do it? How many interviews do I already have in the can? How many interviews do I already have scheduled? By the way, this insight was in mid November, so I already had 15 interviews already recorded. I had 15, if not 20 interviews scheduled into February. So it was going to be a while anyway before I could make any sort of announcements. And at first I thought, well, no, I would miss it so much. This is how I connect with people. I'm so grateful for the listeners. I got a real hit of FOMO when the Spotify wrapped for podcasters came out and it showed how many people listened to Pivot in their favorite podcast of all, or the top three, or the top 10. But the more I sat with the decision or with that download, the more I realized, oh, actually a break would be good. It would feel good financially, it would feel good to free up my time. I got the sense that it would help me think more expansively or creatively or differently versus when I'm just trying to keep up with production and trying to keep up with the old activities. I'm not really having paradigm shifting new ideas.

That's an amazing process. So what I hear, just to recap is there was a download, as you put it, something kind of extraordinary coming through that you heard dismissed, questioned, but then really listened accepted in a deeper way, which I think happens for a lot of people for me, but I've observed this with clients as well, is that we have this deep sense, call it almost a knowing, which isn't like go and be an ecologist necessarily, but something deep moving us and we maybe ignore it, ignore it, ignore it until people will come through my program and it becomes clear in that over time. Or maybe it's not a voice as much as it's a really powerful experience that someone has. I think this is a long time ago now, but for example, I'm remembering somebody who is interested in becoming a physician or getting into the medical field was like first to see a car accident and immediately, instinctively just found himself on the side of the road, pulled his car over, got out, was the first person to deal with this car accident victim who had serious injuries in the process rekindled, realized this desire to go into the medical field and that influenced the unfolding of his path and career change. So it could happen like that. It could be a feeling in the body, like a really just strong feeling, or just this sort of thematic recurrence of like, oh, I keep finding myself interested in anything to do with writing again and again and again, or however it happens. But you hear this thing and then you have the ability, I don't even know what else to call it, to kind of accept it, let it land. And then comes what I thought was a very insightful way of being with it. Not rejecting it, but kind of entertaining it. You said, I tried it on. I let myself imagine what would it be like to imagine wrapping things up and how would that feel and how would I do it? And I call that, in my process, a test drive. Test drive the thing. Get an actual experience of it, or as close as you can, because that's going to communicate more to you than any amount of online research or informational interviews or projections about what you think that will be, what you like, what you want. So anyways, trying it on or test driving it, and it sounds like it was through that, that you really felt it, like, yeah, this feels right. This is something that I want to do. And then what? And then are there other major doubts and obstacles that you had to contend with? What has happened, you know, after that Clarity?

Well, I love the test drive idea and it's test driving. Conceptually, what would it feel like? Logistically, what would it look like? And then for me, there was. Then the next test drive was telling trusted friends about it and kind of bouncing it off of them and also hearing myself say it out loud and hearing how they would react. And then the most interesting thing, once I did make the decision, truly, and I'm like, I've told my assistant, Faye on my team, I'm pausing the shows. I told the production team, I'm pausing the shows starting at the end of February. And I announced that we were pausing all payments for the private community in December. So early, even a month earlier, I was going to kind of close out the year because I was still doing all the normal things for December. But once I had the clarity, I thought, I'm not going to make people pay when they know I'm sort of getting ready to check out. And so we bumped that up even, and it was kind of helpful to stagger. And by the way, what the community earns and what the podcasts do cost across production, and also my recording studio here in New York kind of cancels each other out. But then the last step was what? Once I started making these announcements, I actually felt relief. And then, if you recall from high school days, a little bit of senioritis started to set in, where once I knew the pause was coming, I was kind of thinking, are we there yet? Are we there yet? And it's not that I'm not grateful to be recording and doing things, but it's interesting how my psyche was already starting to move on. Like, oh, now we have three more months. And that was such a shift from oh, should I do this? To are we there yet? Is the pause starting yet? When can we start? Almost like an eager kid to get to that free time point. Yeah, that was the interesting path of the test drive.

Yeah, yeah.

As far as obstacles, the one that continues to get in my head is just right as I am hitting. I can't even say it's momentum in terms of show growth, audience growth. I got rejected by two podcast ad agencies who said my shows weren't big enough, as in enough downloads for them to work with me. And the whole industry was hit by the latest Apple iOS update and some shows lost 30%, 40% of their downloads and have to even lay off their teams because of it. So again, there's these industry wide factors. There's also the long tail of podcasting that even though Pivot is in the top.05% of all podcasts according to Listen notes, it doesn't earn nearly enough. And so one obstacle that I had is I have the team, the production team, I have the systems down. I've gotten really good at it. I'm flowing from week to week. There are so many people who made their top list in Spotify wrapped up. And so I have a little gremlin of like, is it self sabotage or am I stopping momentum never to get it back? Same thing with the private community. Like, am I cutting off a good thing? The podcast and the private community really were the things that I loved and that kept me afloat during the pandemic when a lot of my corporate clients pulled back and tightened the belt. And the private community is where I found a lot of support and it was so rewarding. I think at this point in my process still being so in such a goose state, I just couldn't hold space for people anymore in the way that I would want to. So those are some of my obstacles of just a little sadness because they're things I genuinely love. A little bit of just frustration that I couldn't figure out how to make them work, or that my personality type maybe isn't suited to what's required now, like being on YouTube. I just want nothing to do with it, or like mastering paid advertising. I just really didn't have the cash Runway to like burn a bunch of money on ads and not even know if it was gonna work. So there are things that I could have done and didn't. And that's what I would say is still lingering, just sadness of letting people down who do listen and breaking momentum and then like, what on earth am I doing wrong just overall in my business? Because I don't know. That's it. I'm like leaping into the void again, because I'd say those are some of the just obstacles and yet I don't know what else to do. Because again, clearly something isn't clicking or isn't in flow. So what gets me over the obstacles is just, well, what else are you going to do? It's just time for more dramatic measures.

We'll be right back just after this.

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Well, I want to celebrate first. You said pivot is in the 0.5, not 5%, 0.5% of all podcasts, which is an amazing accomplishment. And that's so worth celebrating regardless of what happens with it. That's amazing. So congratulations and well done there. And then I also just hear your integrity so strongly that you were recognizing a part of this decision is the recognition that you don't have it in you right now to continue to meet your listeners, your community with the excellent support and content that you have for these nine years. So rather than continuing because you want the money or don't want to disappoint or don't want to miss out on something, you're having the integrity. And I think ultimately it comes down to inner strength to say, no, I'm not going to do that. Or integrity, I'm not going to do that. It's time for me to wrap up and give myself the pause. The rest wait for that inspiration to come. I want to talk about the pause and these sabbaticals and the value of that in a second. But the other thing I wanted to reflect and just sort of amplify for everybody listening, because I think it's so true of almost any pivot I've ever done myself or witnessed in thousands of clients, is that these things are not without doubt, they're not without loss, they're not without major loss sometimes, or major doubt or major concerns. And I hear you saying the podcast was, on one level, wildly successful. 0.5% of all podcasts, people in the top three, all over, Spotify this voice going, why am I letting this go? Right? Doubt, hesitation, as well as how much you've enjoyed all of this. And some of these things are revenue streams in your business. So the financial loss, the sadness of not doing it. I know how much you care and love your listeners, your community, you cherish them and have loved this journey that you've been on. So it's a huge, huge loss, huge doubts, huge concerns. And yet there is this deeper truth that is moving you in a hard direction. And so I think that all of it is true, that all of it is happening. So often I notice people struggle with, well, I don't want to make a move until it's absolutely everything is just all right. There's no cost whatsoever. It's perfect, perfect, perfect. And it's like, that's never going to happen. You're never going to do it. And so I really appreciate your vulnerability, you sharing the sadness, the loss, the doubt, and yet you're still doing it because something deeper is moving you. You're listening to that.

Yeah, I appreciate that. And I even quote PidPivot, one of my favorite quotes from Stephen Gross, who wrote the exam, in life, all change involves loss. And so I appreciate what you're highlighting is that there can still be doubt and grief and fear and loss. And the other thing that I've always thought about since I worked on Pivot and talked with so many people afterward, is that we have ideas in our mind about how long change is supposed to take, and especially when you need the money. I kind of think the universe talks to me through money or lack thereof, because that's the only way I'll listen. And when it drags out these moments, it's like, well, I would have loved for this to take a year, and then suddenly for me to have a booming business, it's been four years of not quite knowing what's next. Now, of course, I wrote Free time and I launched the Free Time podcast. I launched a whole part of my business in that. But I had dreams that those were gonna sort of pull me out of this post pandemic situation or position where they didn't like. I invested so much in free time, and I'm so glad I did. No regrets. But now I'm kind of back at square one. It feels like even though I know logically that I'm not with now, way less savings, way less energy, and a feeling of way less time. So it's something that I think we say, well, oh, why is my job search taking so long? Or why is this pivot taking so long? And I really think sometimes we don't control how long it takes. And I have found repeatedly that my mind wants it to take a half or a fourth of the time that it's actually taking. And it's so uncomfortable to try to say this is deeply frustrating and there's nothing I can do about it beyond what I'm doing, attempting. And even the experiments that I've attempted to pull me back into, let's say, more business earning abundance, they just haven't worked. So it's like, okay, go for test drives, try things out, try new things, brainstorm new ideas. They kind of didn't work the way I would have needed them to in order to keep the shows going or really comfortably get to a good place with the business where I'm even saving money. What would that even look like? And so that's what I find interesting, challenging, maddening. There's not a set timeline, and it's just so uncomfortable wishing that there was. And just like with my dating life, I have to remind myself because I was single for a long time in my 20s. Also, don't waste this time. Don't reject this time so much that by the time you meet someone, you look back and go, oh, why didn't I enjoy the time that I was single? You know, and that's true too, because there's a lot to appreciate, even in these liminal spaces.

I know you to be a doer, somebody who likes to be creating an inaction. And there's more sides of you as well. But I hear that you tried everything you could. You did all the doing you could possibly do, and it wasn't working. And some people are sitting on different personalities, no better, no worse. But some people are sitting on the idea and struggling with the oomph to go and make it happen, or the doubts and fears related to putting themselves out there and going and making it happen. And in your case, it wasn't that. And the hard thing, it seems like the last resort almost is to stop everything, take the action of wrapping it all up and resting or pausing. And I think the pause is so important and so undervalued because one of the things I see, which I don't want to describe your experience, but as an experience that exists, some people will call it the dark night of the soul, or even a depression or just a really hard time or it's like seasonally it's winter. But we all, as humans, we have these cycles. It's not always great, we're not always on the rise, the upward trajectory. Sun is shining and everything is abundant. It's just not how it goes. And yet we have such a hard time, I think individually and culturally accepting the recessions, so to speak. We feel like we're doing something wrong, we're bad. What's not working, when in nature it's a natural cycle, right? Death and rebirth, the season cycling through. I'm sure there's so many more real metaphors and understanding of this. So that's where I see you. There isn't anything wrong when I apply this lens. This is a natural part of what's going to be springing forward after the winter, come spring, come summer, come the fall, harvest, the abundance. This is the phase you're in. And I think we do ourselves a disservice when we try to resist what's actually happening. And instead you're giving yourself to this. It's like the leaves are falling off the tree. The podcast, the community, the active work. And you're going to rest, you're going to see what emerges next, what sprouts in the spring. And I feel like there is a time, probably many, for all of us to go through this. I've been through it myself, catalyzed by back pain, by having tremendous pain and just being at the end of what I felt like I could. Trying everything as you had. And I stepped back from my business, I had some support to keep it running, which I was grateful for. Thank you, Daniel and others.

I came out interestingly in that time not free of back pain, but having discovered all these other parts of me, the more wild, creative, passionate part of me that had been buried by the very purpose driven, ambitious, service oriented, coach and entrepreneur and that has remained in my life and I've since have had the healing of back pain. Thankfully, that came from also trying everything but just sort of including this Long rest. I think it was a year or two. Trying everything, but also just continuing. What else am I going to do? I'm just going to keep trying. I'm going to accept, I'm going to enjoy, as you said, the other parts of my life. Like I'm going to try to find meaning and joy where I can and keep going until the next. I don't know what. The breakthrough sounds so cheesy, but it really was. Until the pain is gone, until I find my way to heal it. And then finally, so many years later, it was like, now all these threads are coming together. The creative wildness coming through from that sabbatical, the purpose driven, service oriented, ambitious, coach, entrepreneur still there. And then also now a healthier body free of pain. It's like this all took decades for these parts of my life to come together. And I'm really glad in looking back on it. I'm glad that I took the break. It's like I have no doubt for you, uncomfortable as it is, that something new, something more you, something of greater service to your communities. Maybe you come straight back into Pivot Podcast free time, your community, but with this new wisdom and energy to contribute. Or maybe it's that and something else, who knows? But I'm sure these dark nights of the soul, these crises, these winters in our lives, they do give rise to something when we give ourselves to it.

Well, I appreciate you mentioning your back pain and that whole experience because I remember how trying that time was for you. And funnily enough, I've had a gremlin in my lower back, as I call it, intense back pain. Like every day that I sit, I end the day in pain and I'm doing all the things. I'm doing Pilates and I'm, I'm doing a lot of things. And yet I can't help but think, oh, my body is like reacting. My body's physically telling me, I hate when you're sitting and working right now, you know, because it happens every day if I sit and I sit on a bouncing ball and I have for the whole time. I've been self employed almost 13 years, but now it's creating pain. Now my back is screaming at me to just focus on it and a.k.a. health overall. And then part of me, the acceptance thing that you said is so huge because part of me thinks to myself, I'm not guaranteed some big breakthrough. Aren't there just riches to rags stories that just end up in further rags? Yes. I don't know why I feel like I'm Entitled to some kind of big breakthrough. Oh, it's just around the corner. And then I'll be even more successful. Like, I don't know, maybe not.

I don't want to sound pessimistic, but there is a part of me that was like, why do I feel like, oh, I'm just guaranteed to be bigger and better on some other side? I don't know. That's one of my existential questions of what is possibly an early midlife crisis.

I don't think you are. I think you're right. You're not guaranteed that. The faith I have, Jenny, is knowing who you are and knowing your resilience and you've had periods like this in your life. But also it's that you tried everything, you exhausted all the known options to you, and you were listening to this download, as you put it, this sort of deeper, extraordinary communication as well as your body, the pain you're experiencing. It's another, I would say, way of downloading, receiving information. But it's like something is moving you here. And it's those things that in my life and in others, clients, friends, et cetera, I trust those deeper movements. I'd call it a deeper inspiration. And you just happen to be in sort of crisis in winter. So the inspiration is not a bubbly excitement so much as it is a pull into the unknown. But it still feels like an inspired thing, something from deeper wisdom.

Well, thank you, Adrian. And I didn't realize this would be a straight up coaching session today and pseudotherapy. Thank you for all these generous reflections as we start to wrap up what is our 12th and final for now in our epic podcast album collab? Is there anything else that you would want to offer to listeners around transitions like these or just for the series overall, that would help you feel complete for now?

You asked me this via email, so I've had time to prepare and I don't know, everything I've thought of kind of feels like a canned answer at this point. I think right now what I'm feeling is touched by your vulnerability and your courage. And maybe I'll just follow the theme for today. It has me reflecting on the pause and where am I really at in the cycle of rest, birth, death, creation, et cetera? Which is to say, what do I really need? Like, where am I really? How am I really doing? What do I really need? And I personally believe in giving myself that as best I can. I have two little kids. I have a business to run. It's not easy. I can't take a enormous pause right now, but I can find ways to pause and it may not even look like that for me, but you have inspired me to listen on a deeper level. What do I need? Where am I really at and how can I give myself that? And I trust that in doing so, the next more aligned step will become clear from a much stronger, much more whole foundation. That's what I've got for today and thank you so much and I will miss you in these sessions.

Well, we'll have to just keep on going at some point or we'll be chatting on the phone, I'm sure. And you had used the word faith earlier in the conversation. That's my word for 2024. Because as you said, when all my strategies ran out, to me the only thing remaining is faith and I'm with you. That life has always shown me the way when I look back. No, we're not guaranteed success or anything, but when I have followed, I am always shown the one next step and the one after that. But sometimes it does take these endings first to even clear the space. So it's been such a joy jamming with you Adrian. I'm so grateful for you listeners, all the info, how to contact Adrian, how to sign up for coaching with him or his team, even our Spotify playlist. It's all in the show notes and you'll be hearing my official podcast pause coming up. This was actually kind of unexpected. I didn't think of doing an early reveal, but I'm so grateful that we could unpack this a little bit. So thank you again Adrian and enormous thanks to you for being here listening.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for PivotList, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to, and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.