40: The Upside of Stress with Kelly McGonigal

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What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next.

Notes from this episode. Visit jennyblake Me Podcast. If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello everybody. Welcome to the Pivot Podcast. I'm really excited to have Dr. Kelly McGonigal here today. She is a health psychologist and lecturer at Stanford University and a pioneer in the field of psychology Science help, which I love. I've been a big fan of Kelly and her work for many years and we've been lucky enough to cross paths in person. Her mission is to translate insights from psychology and neuroscience into practical strategies that support personal well being and strengthen communities. Kelly is the author of several books, including the international bestseller the Willpower Instinct and her latest book, the Upside of why Stress is Good for your and how to get good at it. Her 2013 TED Talk, how to make Stress your Friend is one of the most viewed TED talks of all time with 10 million views. Kelly also works with the Stanford center for Compassion and Altruism. She co authored the Stanford Compassion Cultivation Training and studies how social connection can promote health, happiness, and resilience. In her free time, she's a passionate advocate for animal rescue and group fitness as a way to create positive social connections, joy and self compassion. Kelly, welcome to the show.

Thank you. It is so good to talk to you again.

Yay. Thanks for being here. Okay listeners, we're tossing the first question over to you. This is from the introduction to Kelly's book the Upside of Stress. If you had to sum up how you feel about stress, which statement would be more accurate? A Stress is harmful and should be avoided, reduced and managed or b Stress is helpful and should be accepted, utilized and embraced.

In the intro to the book, Kelly says, five years ago I would have chosen A without a moment's hesitation. I'm a health psychologist and through all my training in psychology and medicine, I got one message loud and clear. Stress is toxic and the reason I wanted to bring Kelly on to talk about this is because she completely debunks this myth. And a lot of people who are going through a pivot feel stressed. Not only that, a lot of people who are high achievers experience some level of stress. And, Kelly, what you're saying is that this message, stress is toxic, might almost be as toxic as stress itself. Can you explain?

Yes. So one of the things I'm really interested in is how do we react when life is difficult or is unexpected? And it turns out that if you believe that life is supposed to be easy, it's supposed to go as planned, it's supposed to be comfortable and predictable, that when is difficult or stressful, you're more likely to think things like, I can't handle this, or I'm not enough. I'm alone in this. I'm the only one going through this. It's not supposed to be this way. And that's actually one of the things that I'm most interested in, is how we can cultivate a sense that actually, no matter what's happening in this moment, I can handle it.

This is real, and it's okay that this is happening and I'm not alone in it. And it had not really occurred to me that this message that I had learned and that I was out in the world promoting that stress is toxic, that it might actually contribute to the sense of, I can't handle this, it shouldn't be this way, and I'm alone. And yet that's what a lot of the recent research on stress shows, that how we think about stress has a profound effect on how we respond in stressful moments. And that there actually is a way of thinking about stress that makes it more likely that in those difficult moments, what we sense is, I can handle this, I'm strong enough, I have resources, I'm not alone, I can connect to others. And that this could be a catalyst for something positive that I could learn or I could grow, or I could change in a way that's meaningful to me. And I have to say that it really is this motivation that has inspired me to just go ahead and embrace this counterintuitive idea. Because there's an argument you could make about stress being harmful and some forms of stress being harmful. I mean, we can all find a story somewhere of the stress induced heart attack. We know that we don't always like how it feels to be stressed. And what I'm interested in is can we acknowledge, okay, that's true. And there's always Going to be some part of us that in moments of stress, wishes things were a little bit easier, more comfortable, that would prefer to avoid things like loss and pain and difficulty. And at the same time that we could find the courage to respond to stress in a way that really helps us get closer to the goals and the roles and the relationships that matter most to us. And this book is about the research and the practical strategies for choosing this kind of courageous approach or mindset towards stress that can profoundly change how stress affects you. And in the book, I mentioned a couple of studies that really radically woke me up. One was a study I talk about in the TED talk that found that stress only seemed to be increasing the risk of mortality among people who held the belief that stress was really harmful for their health. And that somehow among people who had very stressful lives, they were the most likely to be alive at the end of a longitudinal study if they didn't hold the belief at the beginning of the study that stress was harming their health. And you see this sort of stress mindset effect across so many different outcomes that people are more susceptible to burnout if they believe that their anxiety is debilitating. But people who view their anxiety as a source of motivation or useful information about what matters to them, they seem to be protected from burnout even in very stressful careers or situations. And you see this sort of effect that kind of invites us to make a choice about how are we going to interpret what it means when our heart is pounding or when we start to experience self doubt? Do we think it means that we need to get out, that we're falling apart, that it's all too much? Are we going to make the choice to think, okay, my heart is pounding because my heart is in it, because I care, because my body is getting ready to rise to this challenge. And can I choose to make contact with my own resources and the resources in my community, the people who care about me, so that my response to this situation is one that does get me closer to what I care about.

I find this all so fascinating. And even you define stress as something you care about is at stake. A lot of times stress is because we are working on things we care about or we're dealing with people that we care about. And that not rejecting it outright is really important because, as you say, it's inextricably linked with meaning and purpose and personal growth.

Yeah. So, for example, if you think that stress is toxic, right? You've heard stress will kill your immune cells and your brain cells and when you're stressed out, you need to immediately become less stressed, or you're setting yourself up for disaster. That tends to lead people to do things that are really counterproductive, like I need to get drunk or I need to go shopping, or I need to procrastinate. It's sort of like this desperate desire to just be less stress in this moment because we fear the actual state of being engaged, of being worried, of caring states that actually are there to drive us to do things. One of the. So you've already heard me say that you know, when your heart is pounding, you could choose to view it as your heart being in it and your heart giving you energy. Two things that are true, right? It's physically true and it's psychologically true. But another thing that people often don't understand, something as simple as loneliness. Loneliness is a biological state. It is your brain and your body trying to push you to connect with others. And it's kind of like hunger. Your body will make you hungry if you haven't eaten in a while because you need to nourish yourself. And loneliness is a kind of stress response that is saying like, yoo hoo, talk to someone who cares about you. Don't be stuck, you know, alone trying to do this all yourself. And sometimes again, we think of that as just being this toxic state. We don't want to feel it's all too much and we eat our way out of it, or shop our way out of it, or, you know, binge watch something on Netflix out of it instead of listening to the signal behind the stress. And that's another sort of part of this message about stress, is that rather than immediately try to escape it, can you listen for the wisdom in it? Because if you always think it's just a state to escape, you sometimes don't get the right message. Sometimes stress is telling us you need to make a change because this isn't sustainable or it's not healthy for you. Sometimes the stress is a signal to double down and engage more because this is the most meaningful opportunity you have right now. And you don't know what the signal is until you're willing to listen to it before you immediately try to suppress it or escape it.

I thought it was so interesting how you cite one study where people are giving presentations and they're really nervous and those that had the mindset intervention to believe that, hey, you might feel stressed and that's okay, it's going to improve your performance, that it's not that the stress chemicals in their body were Any lower, but they performed much better. It didn't affect their performance. In fact, it enhanced it.

Yes. And so what's actually interesting is that study, and a number of studies have shown that how you think about stress changes your stress response. It doesn't make you less stressed. It actually does change the physical stress response, but not by making people calm. So just sort of like down and dirty stress response 101. Everyone thinks that the stress response is fight, flight, or freeze. Like, the only way that your brain and body can respond to a challenge is to panic and become paralyzed, or to punch someone or to run away. As if, like evolution is that stupid, that that's the only skill set we would have.

Right.

But that's the way we talk about it. That's what's true.

That's what I thought it was too, until I read your book.

If you are in that state, it might impair your performance. It might make it more difficult to connect with people you care about. But there are other stress responses, and one is a challenge response. And a challenge response is kind of like what happens in your body when you go for a run. Your body and brain are like, okay, we need energy. It's time to act. It's time to perform. And so your heart pounds stronger and faster. Your blood vessels, they actually expand rather than contract so that you get more blood flow to your muscles into your brain. You have less inflammation than in a fight, flight or freeze response because you're no longer in that sort of danger mode. So your body doesn't think it needs to go into a state of inflammation. There are all sorts of positive changes that happen. You actually have lots of adrenaline and testosterone, things that give you power and energy.

And the study that you mentioned that choosing to view your stress as not a problem, but as a resource, as a source of energy, it actually shifts people from a threat response that fight, flight, or freeze, it actually shifts them into a challenge response. You can see it in their heart response. You can see it in their immune system and inflammation. And you can see it in how they think, talk about their stress. They actually feel more confident and they do better. So you mentioned the speech study, but this has been done in all sorts of context. Students taking exams and the students score better. People engaging in negotiations and getting better outcomes in negotiations. One of my favorite was a karaoke competition, and they actually were more on pitch. That's an objective measure.

Athletes perform better in competitions, almost any situation you can think about. And again, I think that this is. It's one of the Most simple things that we can do. Even though I understand that it's a bit of a leap of faith that suddenly if you spent like me, I spent decades thinking stress was the enemy. To suddenly be like, oh, but maybe it's not. Maybe stress is a friend that I can rely on. Okay, I realize that does require it is a leap of faith to start seeing what would happen, what would happen in my body, what would happen in my mind, what would happen in my heart. If I choose to consider that in moments that are difficult, when I'm feeling self doubt or feeling overwhelmed or feeling angry, if I open myself up to that possibility, what happens? And in the book I talk about all sorts of mindset resets like that. It's not just viewing stress as energy, but one of the other most powerful mindset resets we can take is to view stress as, as an opportunity to learn and grow to understand that part of the biology of stress is it makes you more plastic. Not like Barbie, but like the plasticity of I can be changed by my environment and by my experience. So when you're experiencing high levels of stress hormones, your brain becomes more plastic. It's more ready to learn from experience. Your senses become more open and more engaged with your environment so that you're better able to notice what's happening and respond to it. Your everything about you enters this state of it's a kind of vulnerability in which you are going to be changed by this experience. And studies show that if you recognize that, if you recognize stress or even recognize the post stress, the rumination, not being able to sleep at night because you're thinking about what went wrong and what you should have done or why did that happen. All of those things that are part of the stress response after a stressful experience. When you recognize this is my brain trying to learn from this experience. People who take that kind of growth or learning mindset, they're more likely to learn things that are useful. They're more likely to learn resilience from something traumatic. They're more likely to learn that they are stronger than they thought they were. They're more likely to learn who they can count on and strengthen relationships and other things that we could learn from stress, that we don't always learn from stress if we're immediately trying to sort of move on or get past it.

Yeah, I mean even in the weeks since I've been reading your book, things got really ramped up for me and getting ready for my book to come out. And I remember thinking to myself on more than One occasion. Oh, it's all good. My body steps up to help me with stress. And it does. Like, your book helped me reframe a really busy, chaotic time as, oh, yeah, I kind of stepped things up a notch when this is happening, and it just was very small, but a really perceptible shift.

I think it's so great to be able to acknowledge that that is one possibility. And I also, I heard the podcast you did where you talked about your experience with Vertig was sort of the flip side. Sometimes your body's gonna give you some other signals that tell you to slow down. And I feel like it's really important to understand that both are opportunities to learn from stress, that sometimes we really do have the resources we need, and especially if we don't have a choice in the matter. I think sometimes we talk about stress reduction or slowing down and simplifying as if we all have a say in what stress we're dealing with at any given moment. Like, oh, of course, if I didn't want to become a caregiver to an aging or ailing parent, I could just choose not to do that. I could just choose not to have reorganization at work or get fired. I could just choose not to have my own health crisis. We don't always get to choose the stress in our lives. And I think in particular, when we. When we aren't dealing with a stressful hobby or situations that we have control over, it's really important to understand that, yeah, you can rely on yourself and you can rely on your community and to trust that process rather than assume that because you are unable to control the stress in your life that you have no resources and that there's going to be no way to get through this. But I think the flip side is true, too. When we do have more control, it's really important to listen to signals about whether or not the stress that we're choosing is creating meaning, is creating joy, is strengthening us in a way that we value, or if we've made choices that are creating the kind of stress that is more toxic than it is supportive. And then we can, you know, then we can think about simplifying or changing changing paths.

Something you said earlier really stuck out, which is around loneliness and that it's like hunger. And it goes for me, it stood out. Because you also cite some of the news study, like, kind of news reports in recent years that stress is contagious.

Yes.

And for me, yeah, like, for me, when I'm stressed or even grieving or sad, I feel that I'm contagious and I almost need to like contain the virus.

I know. And that's.

I know. And that's not what you say to do.

Yeah, so let's talk about that. Okay, so first of all, it is true that we catch the emotions of others and we catch the physiology of others. And it is most true for people we care about. And that is the biological basis for empathy and for compassion and for strengthening relationships. The only people who are not susceptible in that way, who do not catch things like a stress response or sadness or anger, are they sociopaths, Literally. Psychopaths. Like that is the defining feature of a psychopath, is not having a social stress response. And I think it's really important to understand that our ability to be open not just to our own stress, but to the stress and suffering of others is actually the most important catalyst for experiencing the positive social emotions that are an incredible source of resilience. So if you think that you need to defend yourself against other people's stress or suffering or pain, it means you're not going to get the same boost of positive pro social emotions like compassion, caring, love connection, even contagious joy, sympathetic joy where we can take pleasure and celebrate in the well being or success of others, that we need to let ourselves get infected in that way. And oftentimes people don't want to be a burden. They think that by being transparent about their own problems, they're just being a burden or a negative influence. And the thing that's so important to understand is that if you ask people when they feel most on purpose, when they feel the most meaning in their lives, most people will tell you it has something to do with being able to help others. And we are depriving the people in our lives from that experience if we think it's not okay to tell them when we're suffering. This was actually one of the things that this book helped me with the most. I would say that some of the stuff I'd figured out on my own along the way, how to deal with anxiety, but this book, it really was a huge wake up call for me, myself, that by not being transparent, by not asking for help, by not letting others give me compassion, that I was really not serving my relationships and my community, that it was really important. And it's a gift to others to let people see you as vulnerable and to be able to be the ones who help you, not just the one who is, who is helped by you.

I was going to say that writing this book is like the ultimate mindset intervention for yourself.

I know. Isn't that why we write books?

Don't you write books that are sort of always.

And it's a joint process? Right. Because I wouldn't want to write the book. It's like Brene Brown says, you teach from your scars, not from your wounds. And so I often will spend.

Many years where my primary teaching focus is a particular topic before I jump in and write a book about it. And often before I taught it for several years, I was really exploring it in my own life. And I've been exploring my stress mindset probably since 2000, when I first started to seriously study mindfulness and compassion meditation, both as a researcher and as a human being, as a practitioner. So it's been percolating. But I will say that the universe has a wonderful sense of humor. And while I was writing this book, a number of things happened in my life that were basically like, oh, yeah, you think stress is a good thing. Have this stressful experience. See what this is like. Prove it. Prove that this stuff works. Prove it in your own life. And I think that was a gift because I did have to test it.

Out.

Not just with my students, but with myself. So that was an interesting experience. And it was very useful to be writing that, particularly that chapter about the importance of reaching out.

Of understanding that a lot of stress is bigger than self and you can have a can do attitude for some kinds of stress and do it and other types of stress, you are going to have to rely on something bigger than yourself and to trust that your body and your brain are going to push you in that direction. And if you listen to it, that there are small steps you can take that really activate you're bigger than self. Resources, whether it's faith, whether it's meaning and values, whether it's your family or your friends or your community.

What would.

You say you did differently or how you reached out or handled things differently when these things started to hit? During writing the book and then even after.

Yeah, I mean, just so one example, I can think of one thing that was going on while I was writing the book. So I think, you know, because my first book was about chronic pain, I've suffered from chronic pain since I was a child. But it's like a very familiar kind of pain where I've learned how to navigate it. There's like a space for that kind of pain, and it's okay if that pain is there. And then while I was writing the book, I got a new form of my usual pain is Related to headaches, A new kind of facial pain that was so much worse than it was. Just like, new pain is different because you don't have the same space for it or relationship for it. So I was dealing with that and doing the MRIs and the scans and the going to specialists, and nobody can explain it. And like, if you suffer from chronic pain, this is a familiar process. Nobody can ever explain it. And it's a really demoralizing process. And what I remember is this is going to sound so silly that this would not have been my instinct, But I remember actually talking to my sister about it. I usually think, nobody wants to hear about this. Everybody knows I'm in pain all the time. And I remember sitting on a bed bench with my sister and just talking about it, and she was very empathic. And it just struck me, like, why I was doing it, because I'd been writing about how important it was to do it. And I was writing about why it's sometimes difficult to acknowledge your own suffering and reach out for help. And I just remember that moment on the bench feeling really hopeful and then going off to another medical appointment and just small things like that.

Yeah, so that's an example.

Health concerns and then grieving loss. I mean, there's so many other types of trauma that, like you said earlier and you say in the book, and I think it's such an important note, which is that we would never choose these things. It's not that, oh, we should just love all stress equally, and that's great. No, we're not saying that you would ever wish this upon yourself or a friend or a family member, but that when it shows up, here are some positive things to help you through it when you're ready, when you're even ready for that.

And I think one of the reasons. So one of the ways that we can come to this mindset is also to recognize that stress is not the situation. So stress is what arises in you and in your community when something you care about is at stake. And that includes your emotions. It includes your physical responses. It includes how communities can suddenly come together for positive action or change or support. It's what arises in those difficult moments. So when I talk about the upside of stress and how to get good at stress, I'm not talking about the upside of bad things. I'm not talking about the upside of trauma. The upside in the sense that we should go out and suffer because there's something good about the circumstances. What I'm trying to draw people's attention to is the good that gets activated in us as human beings and within communities when difficult things happen. And I think it's a hard thing for a lot of people to hear because even just like the title of the book can be so triggering. Like, are you telling me I should be grateful for the fact that I just experienced this loss? No, you should not be grateful, but you should be grateful to your own strength. If you can witness that, you should be grateful to people who support you through it. You can find gratitude. That's not gratitude for the loss. And that's really what the mindset in this book is about. It's about how to recognize and then harness these natural capacities we have as humans to respond to difficulty and to stop thinking that we as human beings have such a limited capacity to deal with difficulty. I don't know why science got so divorced from contemplative and religious and philosophical traditions. Almost any wisdom tradition you go to recognizes a lot of these human strengths. And for a while, science kind of was like, I don't know, they were maybe just studying lab rats too much. They didn't get to witness the great human capacity for making meaning that Viktor Frankl wrote about. And yet I think when you really pay direct attention to the experience of stress, if you're able to pay attention to these capacities, we have to grow, to connect, to make meaning, to rise to the challenge. It becomes quite evident that it's not useful to think about stress as this debilitating, destructive response, that we should be trying to just calm down whenever we sense it arising.

I wonder why, though it is interesting that we still reject it. Like even you and I can say, we can look back.

Who doesn't want to?

I know, but then we wouldn't even have books to write. But yet still, I'm like, oh, I hope everything stays pretty cool for the next little while.

So one of the ways that I often end my keynotes on this topic is I ask people the question, do you hope tomorrow is stressful? Because I feel like that really gets at the heart of this paradox, that it makes complete sense to want tomorrow to be full of joy and ease. And at the same time, it is completely possible, when tomorrow is stressful, to think, okay, I can handle this. Think about what you care about, what your values are. Think about choices you can make that get you closer to who and what you care about. Think about calling on higher resources, that both can be true at the same time. And it's actually a mistake to think that the ideal life is stress free, even if we are deeply committed to trying to reduce the suffering in the world, I think that's probably part of your mission. I'm sure no matter what people do who are listening to this, many of them will have as part of their mission the desire to help people thrive and reduce the pain and suffering that people experience. And what I'm saying is it's actually possible for both to be true. You can be out there trying to relieve the seeds and causes of stress and suffering and at the same time believe it's possible to transform stress and suffering into something that we value.

I think one of the biggest skills, and I didn't make this up, I mean, not the first to say it, but a human trait is being able to hold a paradox and live with.

It and not have your head explode.

I know.

Right? Right. Not chase your tail. I know one thing you're really passionate about is group fitness. How does that play a role here? And for you personally, how has that helped you manage stress?

Yeah, so well. So it's interesting. How does it help me manage stress?

I know, as I said it, I'm like, I don't know if that's the right lingo.

I love in introductions, people often be like, and now Kelly is here to teach us all how to reduce and avoid stress. I'm like, oh, okay. I know he didn't read my book.

Yeah, right. As I said it, I was like, shoot, there was a better way to phrase that.

But what was interesting is. So I know for a lot of people, exercise is sort of a stress management tool, but for me, it's just something else. I believe that people are born with just a natural. Like, there are certain things that when they're in that environment or they're in that activity or in a certain role, it's like their best self comes forward.

And like, part of our job in life is to figure out, where are those environments, what are those activities where our heart sings and we have something to offer and we experience a true sense of being at home and being alive. And it's. People find this hard to believe, but, like, that, for me, has been group exercise since I was in third grade when I first started discovering old school aerobics, the kind of people who were around in the early 80s, remember?

And so, in a way, I don't even think of it as being about reducing stress. There's something for me about being with a group of people moving in synchrony to music that is uplifting and empowering and the content of the movement, you know, I teach yoga, but I also teach mixed martial arts. And I. I teach dance. And I've taught in the past strength. And each one of these movement forms, it connects to a certain aspect of the personality that you can feel fierce and strong and powerful. That in dance you can express your emotions, all of your emotions, the difficult ones and the joyful ones. And that's what I experience in group fitness, that it's like power posing for 60 minutes. That you are doing movements and gestures to music that feeds your soul, and you're doing it in community. I can think of nothing more wonderful than that. And to be able to teach it is when I feel like I still remember the first time I taught a dance class. And I remember afterwards thinking like, wow, I was born to do that. And it's not all I was born to do, but it certainly. If you're in those moments.

I have no doubt that that's part of what I was born to do. So for me, part of it is, I don't know, the group fitness is for everyone. But one of the reasons I'm so passionate about it is because it feeds me in that way. And I actually. And so when I teach it, I look for ways. I look for the people for whom that's gonna be true too. As soon as I can see it. Like the people who have a better than they expected experience. And you can see it. Cause what they're responding to is like the synchrony. When we're stepping and we're clapping, you'll see some faces light up more than others when they realize they're clapping together as a group. And those are the people I know. Pay attention to them, learn their names. Because these are people who are going to get something out of this experience that is a lot more important than a tight butt.

That's amazing.

That's not what I'm thinking about as I'm teaching.

Right. What kind of dance classes do you teach?

Right now I'm teaching something called Dance Jam, which is sort of like all styles mashed up, modern day. It's sort of like so youo Think youk Can Dance as a dance class. But I also teach Zumba.

What I do, I'm McGonagall. Either get back to New York right now.

Oh, my gosh. Okay. The next time I'm in the Bay Area, I'm taking your dance class, if I can.

Yes, please do.

I used to take hip hop class and I started as an adult. And really I kick myself because I should be doing it. I love it. It's so fun. And I've done yoga a long time, just like you. And you're right. I think there's something to also having a. I think what's nice about group fitness is the idea of being led. That surrendering to the teacher, to the music, to the movement, and I don't have any.

It's transcendent. Transcendent.

Yes.

Unless you have a voice in your head that's arguing the whole time, which is like, that happens too. One of the things I used to love to talk with my yoga students about is like, I see you looking at the clock or it's so funny how often. Even the things that bring us great joy. It's such a powerful habit of the mind to be trying to improve the experience or immediately be trying to end the experience prematurely, no matter how much you. Oh, I was looking forward to yoga all day, and now that I'm in it, it's like, when's Shavasana coming so that I can leave? I love exploring even, like, that side of it too, because in part, it's a skill to surrender. The experience invites you to do it, but there has to be some willingness involved.

Well, I also. Maybe this is my own mindset intervention for people who are new to yoga or even Pilates, where I'll say, don't even try and eliminate feeling bored. Someone said to me the other day, oh, I just hate Pilates. That's fin. But do it anyway, because you'll be amazed at the results.

There's a lot of different payoffs, but.

Yeah, it's not always in the moment. Pleasure. I think that's part of the upside of stress, is if we are only seeking moments of hedonic pleasure and ease, we miss out on a lot of the payoff that comes from having done something that's a little bit uncomfortable or new or difficult and challenging. And so sometimes the payoff is afterwards where it's like, wow, not only did I survive that, I feel really good about myself that I did that, even though in the actual moment, the voice in my head was like, how do I get out of here?

Right. Why did I do this?

Yeah.

What about the importance of music? Because I've never really. I haven't read a lot about it, but I'm wondering if with your group fitness, passion. Seems like music plays a big role as well in joy.

It does. Well, it plays a big role for me in life. I feel like my life has a soundtrack there. Every activity has its own sort of musical style that goes along with It. I don't know if you. When I write books, I don't know if you write books to music. I have a book writing playlist that drives other people crazy. It drives my husband crazy because it involves mostly electronic dance music, remixes of holiday music. Oh, my God, that's amazing. So it's pretty cuckoo stuff. And if I'm writing a book in July and it's the ninth remix of Winter Wonderland, like a jazz remix of Winter Wonderland, my husband is like, oh, my gosh. But, yeah, music. There's so much research on this, and athletes know this really well. You know, athletes understand that you listen to certain types of music to put yourself in a certain state of mind and to connect to something that feels bigger than yourself and to unleash the energy that's available to you. Like, why not do that your whole life? Why not think about the music that helps you connect, connect to meaning and purpose and community?

And one of my Zumba students was telling me recently, she showed me on her phone, she has a playlist that she calls my theme songs, which are songs from Zumba class that she associates with feeling certain ways in Zumba class, like feeling powerful or feeling connected. The song that's a song of celebration, but she calls them her theme songs so she can choose to listen to them when she wants to feel that way. And I really endorse that.

I love that. I have to know why EDM remixes of holiday music in particular, what is it about that that gets you in the zone?

You know, it started out with a couple of albums. Well, one thing is dance music is. For me, dance music and jazz are the two forms of music that my heart loves the most. And a lot of the remixes I listen to are like jazzy drum and bass remixes. But it started with two albums that just had a feeling to them. One, if anyone's interested, it was Reindeer Room, Chill It Out Christmas. And the other is Home for the Holidays by OM Records, which is a wonderful label in the Bay Area that does great house music. And these two albums, there's just something about them that felt really hopeful. And.

I love music that has a quality of nostalgia to it. My other favorite album, Blue Train by John Coltrane. There's something about music that feels both sad and happy and joyous at the same time, that has a particular.

It's like you're nostalgic even as you're listening to it. There's a poignancy to it. For whatever reason, these holiday albums made me feel that way. I was nostalgic for them as I was listening to them. And I think that that emotional quality is really important for me when I write books. Because what I'm hoping to do when I write books is not to entertain people. I'm not that kind of writer. I'm not that, like, skilled in prose. I'm not gonna just, you know, fascinate people with great stories the way someone like Charles Duhigg might or Mary Roach, you know, she's a great comedian. What I'm hoping to do when I write is I want to say something that's gonna linger with people and hopefully be available to them. In moments that are difficult. I try to convey a certain feeling of possibility. And so I like to listen to music that for me, it has that kind of attitude to it.

And I feel like maybe if I were listening to something else, it would come out. It would come out in my work.

I don't know if you can relate to this, but I admire amazing musicians so much and the power. I have a friend who makes fun of me because I love, like emo songs, a lot of emotion. But my vehicle to do that, like you, is through books. But not. I don't have flowery prose either. I once, my friend, I asked her, if your writing were a food, what would it be? And I told her, mine's a salad. It's like not the most delicious or rich. It's just chopped up, practical. Good for you. So now naturally I have to ask you, so if you're writing real food.

What would it be that's so interesting? My first thought was a bowl of oatmeal. I don't know. That's very appealing, I think about, because what I thought is like, what do I love holding in my hands and smelling and then eating for me, you know, oatmeal with cinnamon and ginger and pumpkin. But I don't know that people feel that way when they read my book. That seems awfully aspirational to be like held in comfort because I'm not sure I'm that kind of writer either. That would be like, like the. That would be the ideal. I hope someday to write a book that makes people feel held in comfort.

I absolutely think that you do, 100%. Part of what's funny about that question is people also tend to give self depreciating answers because it's a bunch of writers. So, you know, it's like oatmeal, a salad. My friend Julie, she's like, mine's Brussels sprouts. Cause you don't expect to like it, but it has bits of bacon every now and then.

Well, you know what's interesting? So you mentioned self deprecating answers and one of the things that I've been talking with people about a lot lately is the tragic gap, which is the space between your ideals and what's real and how important it is to just surrender and accept the tragic gap, that the more you care, the more tragedy you're going to feel. That it's not that the gap is bigger, it's that it's going to hit you harder and there's going to be such a desire to offer yourself and to serve and to contribute. And then there's going to be the reality of what life is like as someone who is trying is doing their best. And to even use the tragic gap as a kind of stress that could point you back to what you care about instead of viewing it as a sign that you ought to give up.

That's a tough one. I mean, I shared on a podcast there was a point where I felt like I'm too sensitive for my own life. Life is too overwhelming. But on the other side it's, oh, I have a lot of empathy. Oh, I care. You know, it reminds me what you just said of the Shambhala book by Chagyam Tropa, who says it's like bravery is on the razor's edge of heartbreak and it's just being willing to be there and keep going.

Yeah, and that's of course, that's the other side of my work, the work that we do at the center for Compassion and Altruism. It's based on Tibetan practices of courage and compassion cultivation.

And so that is definitely. That is an attitude that has served me very well. And even when I'm writing science books, that's really like, that's what the message actually is. I'm just telling you about the science that supports it.

I'm so glad you brought this up too, because even working on a big project like a book, you and I were talking before we hit record. Once you hit ship for me, I'm experiencing it now where I'm like, oh, there's so much more I could have said or changed or this isn't perfect or I would have done done this. It's like I got to let it go. Now I have a name for it. The tragic gap and tragic gap. When we care about stuff, it's going to be there.

Yep. And also in different stages of book promotion and publication, the thing that sustains me is sort of the long tail of Emails from people. I have gotten some emails from readers for this last book that have had me weeping because I could not have imagined a particular.

Kind of a particular reader with a particular need. And that I could meet that need in such a profound way for someone who's suffering deeply in that moment. That sustains me in what is a sense of a huge tragic gap. And so much I wish I could have done with this book that I was unable to do in the space and the time and my skill and my talent. I want to actually. So that's actually something. To those of you who are listening, who could view yourself more as readers than as writers, you should actually know what a difference it makes when you reach out to a writer. It really matters because writers get a lot of unfriendly emails, also a lot of cranky emails. That's a big part of the tragic gap, too.

The antidote to the tragic gap is something you share in the upset of stress, which is connecting to the meaning and purpose. It's. Why did I undertake this? Because it's meaningful and I hope to help people. And I know that's why you write your books. That's why I write mine. And that, as you just said, getting, getting emails from people reaffirms the true purpose. It's not about making money. It's not about how many books are sold. It's connection.

Yeah. I think if you get into the business of writing books to compete in that way, I can imagine few things that would be more sort of isolating and demoralizing. It has to be about imagining the reader.

Kelly, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much. Your books are indeed a comforting and nutritious bowl of oatmeal. I learn so much every time. Can we.

We'll put that on the next jacket. Book jacket. That'll be your blurb. And I have to ask you for a blurb like, remember the bowl of.

Oatmeal done with pumpkin and. Yeah. And all the goodies. And then it's funny, I already was creating a pivot playlist that I might release as a pre order bonus because I've done playlists every quarter of my life since I was in middle school. First it was on cassette tapes, then CDs, now on Spotify.

So do you go back and listen to them?

Oh, it's a trip. And I try not to over go back because when I drop back in, it's so powerful that these songs, like, are kind of my life. And especially, as you know, because you split time and live in New York while I'm working on the book. Walking down the street, listening to the same songs over and over, but only for a period of like three months. It's just so crazy how it locks in what was going on at that time.

Yep. It gives you that embodied memory.

Yeah. So I'm going to try and find the albums you link to, and I'll try and link to those in the show notes, too.

Okay, great.

And where else can people find you if they want to connect and keep in touch?

You know, I'm pretty active on Twitter and everything is just under my name. My website, Facebook, Twitter. It's Kelly McGonigal.

Awesome, Kelly. Thank you so much. And big thanks to everyone for listening.

Foreign.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. To learn more and get in touch, visit Jennyblake Me, where I blog about systems at the intersection of mind, body and business. Or find me on Twitter Ennyblake. And remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it all always.