55: Rebirth: On Fear, Flow, Love and Magic with Kamal Ravikant

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Hello everybody. Welcome back to the Pivot Podcast. I am so excited to have Kamal Ravikant here with us today. Kamal is the author of a new book called A Fable of Love, Forgiveness and Following your Heart. And I first heard about him from Following a little rabbit trail of reading James Altucher's Choose Yourself book when it first came out and James mentioned quote and he said Kamal wrote this book called Love Yourself like youe Life depends on it and everybody has to read it. And so it's fun to read Kamal's book and hear the story from the flip side that he just, and you can correct me, Kamal, but he kind of sent an email to friends and they said, and those friends happened to include James Altucher, Tim Ferriss, and they said this has got to be published. So he wrote up a short book, put it out and it is wonderful. Among these two books, Kamal has also had some incredible life experiences that include trekking to the highest base camps in the Himalayas, meditating with Tibetan monks in the Dalai Lama's monastery. He earned his US army infantry patch, walked 550 miles across Spain, which is what this fable. It's not a fable, it's a novel called Rebirth is about. He's lived in Paris. He's been the only non black, non woman member of the Black Women's Writer Group. I love that.

Very proud of that.

It's so awesome. I love that that's in your bio too.

But that's kind of his tongue in cheek because he's also a very, very successful entrepreneur, has founded several companies and has worked with some of the best people in Silicon Valley. So Kamal is being a bit humble in these bios and also probably revealing your playful, adventurous Side. So, without further ado, Kamal, welcome to the show.

Ah, thank you, Jenny. I love that intro.

A little whining, but, you know, I'm trying to mirror the path. Your trek across Spain, my trek across your bio, this podcast.

Yeah, I like. I mean, I like doing that, having fun with bios. I don't like stodgy bios, you know, and this is more of my personal. Tells you my personality. I think it's true.

And it's funny because you are so accomplished in the tech and VC world, but it must be interesting that if people find you online, they sort of have to find their way to that info and that who they get first is the you underneath all of that.

The funniest thing is I spoke at a conference earlier this year. It was really fun. It was a hedge fund conference in Puerto Rico, and I was one of the featured speakers. And if you look at the featured speakers photos, I still laugh about this. On the left, start left to right, the governor of Puerto Rico, some big hedge fund guy. Another big hedge fund guy, Rudy Giuliani. So these are like all older white men, suit ties, then me, hair flying, no suit, no tie. And what horrified me was actually when I showed up there, they had looked online for a bio and they had pulled an old bio from an old site I had, which included talked about, I've done this and I've done that and I've showered here and I've sat with Ben Kinsley there. It was just like a rambling thing. And that's what they put out as my official bio to all these hedge fund people. It was like, oh, my God. I don't think they have that sense of humor.

So great. I love when you say hair flapping. I first met Kamal in person because I think Kamal, you were walking down the street in New York and it was unmistakable because he has a shock of gray hair and it's long. Is just. You cannot miss Kamal Ravikant if you see him in person. So I remember seeing you walk down the street in New York, and maybe I didn't approach you that day, but it was unmistakable to me. And I was like, oh, I guess he lives here now. Or at least he's visiting. And then through James, we got to actually hang out. But anyone listening, it's almost like Where's Waldo? But even if you're in a busy city, there's Kamal. It's amazing.

I do get around.

Yeah, I love just the themes of your books. Love yourself, live your truth now. Rebirth. That's an interesting Journey in itself. And I'm so glad that we get to be kicking off the new year with the theme of Rebirth, because what is a pivot other than rebirth in some way?

That's a great way to put it.

Yeah. And, I mean, Rebirth is such a powerful title. How did you arrive at that?

Actually, funny enough, the original title of this novel, which I wrote and rewrote for many years, collecting rejection letters. But that's what taught me to be a better writer. Because as I got the rejection letters, I was like, okay, going to be a better writer one day, they're going to chase me. You know, it was over a decade, though, you know, like, just writing and rewriting, getting better. And the original title was A Thin Place. A Thin Place was a concept. Someone told me when I walked the Camino de Santiago, that 550 mile long in Spain, where he said, you know, one of those rare places in the world where when you go, you can almost feel the presence of the other side. Like, the line between earth and heaven is a thin one. So that was the original title of the book. But when I sold to Hachette last year, my agent said that, and he said, that's not a title that will sell, and you got to come to a different one. And that was hard. And then I realized this book actually, fundamentally, that's what it's about. It's about the main character, what he goes through, what he learns, the life lessons he learns, and it comes out the other side, which is like so many of our journeys, the entrepreneurship journey, it's the writing journey. And so it's a human journey. And actually, one part of the Camino de Santiago is called Rebirth. It starts as life, death, Rebirth. And I was like, oh, my God, that's the title of the book. I was gonna make it Life, Death, Rebirth. But that was too much. And just realized, what is it fundamentally about? It's about rebirth. And that was the title.

I love it. It is. It cuts to the essence, and we do. It's our hero's journey. We go through so many rebirths in our lives. I have to tell you, we were at James's house on election night, and my friend and I saw the book on the coffee table, and we were like, what's that? And we told James, we were like, you don't need this, do you? And we essentially just made him let us take it home, because I think he had really. I think he had one more, but that's. It jumped off the coffee table at us. So hopefully the same Will be true for everyone listening to this show.

Thank you. And Hachette's done a beautiful job with it.

Yes, it's gorgeous. One quote. I love this because you open Rebirth with this advice from a monk. And even though this book is. It is based on your life experience. And when I ran back and reread Love Yourself like your life depends on it, you also share this quote from a monk who you asked him, how do you find peace? And he said, I say yes to all that happens. I say yes. So did you actually meet a monk who told you this?

Yeah, years ago. And you know, that may end up being a theme and one of the themes in all my books, because it's such a fundamental theme that transforms your life if you actually start to live it. And actually this book, a lot of it, like the epigraph I wrote about the Secret to Flight. And that tells right there what this book is about. By saying yes to life. Leaning into the wind rather than fighting it. And by saying yes is actually when this guy meets the right people and what they teach him and what he needs to go to have his rebirth. By just saying yes to life.

Yeah. I think it might end up in all my books.

Yeah. I have to read because I earmarked this for our show. I want to read the Secret to flight. You say, don't flap your wings so hard. It only exhausts you. Close your eyes. Lean into the currents. Say yes. Let the wind raise you higher and higher. So easy. That's what eagles do. Oh. This is the secret to life as well.

Yeah.

How did you practice this? Because when the monk first told you, how did you start to really live this in your life?

It's been a journey and it's like it's not a hundred percent thing. Right. But I just know that, you know, like, I think all. Most of our pain in life comes from resisting to the. To what is the present moment, to what is happening. We're stuck in our head, you know, trying to change things in our head at the past or the future versus being. Just saying yes to what is happening doesn't mean accepting it and just sitting on your butt and letting the world evolve. But saying yes and then once you accept it, you're not fighting it. And then you come from a place of power. Okay, what do I want to do? Right. Versus just saying no to life. There's a great book called the Surrender Experiment, which I highly recommend. He did the same thing. He went practically just went and lived. Saying yes to life and his journey.

That Is a fascinating book because he does describe how sometimes our impulse is to say no. It's so tricky because even in the entrepreneurship and business space, then there's a lot of advice of no is a full sentence. And you gotta know when to say no and find your 80 20. So how do you know for you, Kamal, when it's a yes, even if it seems counterintuitive versus a no?

Yeah. Because a no to someone else or something else is saying yes to yourself. Often that's a very important distinction. Right. Because we feel like, oh, no, I gotta say yes to everything. No, that's not true. Because a lot of stuff pulls us away from our focus, pulls away from our time and our. And our, you know, core journey through life.

But ultimately, saying yes to yourself, to what? Your heart into your heart. And, you know, we all. There's no, like, okay, step one, how to listen to your heart. You know, step two, it's. We all know if you lived through life a bit, you know, your heart. And we know that most of the time you don't listen to it. Right. We listen to it, but we don't do it. And it's literally listening to that is where the yeses and nos to the world comes from. And it's saying yes to yourself, which is the only true yes that matters.

Yeah. I love how you, one of your fellow travelers on the. It's going to be so hard, Kamala, to just assume that this is all your true story.

Go for it.

But in any case, one of the characters in the book, you have to bring forth what is within you or it will destroy you. And part of that discernment and following the heart, I mean, love and following one's own heart. Those are huge themes in this book.

Yeah. Yeah. And I try to make them also in a practical way as well, rather than just like paying homage to the core life's truths. Because we all know those. We've read enough. The Internet and Instagram is full of quotes about that. Right. But it really is. It's like, it's something I've learned. It's like if you don't. What's truly in our heart, if we don't bring it out and let it fly, it does eat us away in a way that.

I think we learn versus if you put it out, that's when magic in life happens. It's also scary. Right. It's ironic. Saying yes and surrendering to life is actually scary versus fighting it and saying, no, I want to do this, do that. Whereas we know Better.

It's so true. And they have a different. The magic of the heart as you describe it. Yes, there's a little scary, but it's kind of adrenaline and it feels right. And even if something is hard, it can feel pure and clean, right? Yeah. And then when we don't listen, we try and stuff that down. For me, when I close my heart, I feel worse. No matter what anyone else is doing around me, I feel worse because I've shut myself down.

Yeah, that's an important lesson I've learned as well.

Oh, go ahead. No, please, no, continue.

No. It's actually like one of those ironies in life, right. Like we think we're protecting ourselves, but actually we're not. It's when you go with an open heart is when the magic happens. And, you know, it's about who we're being more than what the world is being. Because the world responds to who we're being. And you know, people come and go out of our lives, but if we are being open heart, we're like being true to ourselves and saying yes, it passes like seasons and all we got is us and the knowledge that we were being true. That's beautiful way to walk through the earth.

It is. And that, you know, it's interesting. I don't know if you felt this way, but I kind of learned this lesson in business and career and money. First of how to be comfortable with uncertainty. And once I became an entrepreneur, at least went out on my own, I really understood. I don't even know how I'm paying, how I'm earning my rent next month. And okay, nobody can promise me anything. You know, every day is an adventure and I just have to surrender to the slow unfolding. And then in relationships, I had to then later learn how to apply it. And that's more recent of staying open like that and riding that ride because it's easy to want to say like, promise me something or give me some security or, you know, anything that will sort of. But it just covers up the truth that nobody can. I mean, I don't know, we get people listening, could disagree, but ultimately I think no one can really promise us anything. We don't know what can happen. And even if you are in relationship, death, disease, divorce, like anything can happen at any time. And the key is to stay open and not preemptively close ourselves down, whether it's around money, career, business or relationships, to somehow think that we're protecting ourselves because we sort of shut it all down before it ever has a chance.

Yeah. And that's actually. I think that's something we can practice and get better at over time. You know, it's something that I practice myself down to the part where I'll actually walk around. Like, I'm in New York these days, like, walk around just reminding myself to open, just open and feel myself opening to whatever's around me. And it's actually like, all of a sudden, New York becomes more magical and beautiful when I do that. It's really simple, but it works.

And you know, your thing about entrepreneurship and relationships, these are all. These are two of the best ways of growing, right? I think entrepreneurship is one of the best paths to personal transformation because you're challenged in ways that, you know, most people would avoid if they could, if they didn't have a bigger mission that they wanted to do.

Every part of us, like spiritually, emotionally, physically, you know, you name it. Like, entrepreneurship is just a series of facing problems and solving problems, you know.

And dealing with uncertainty, right?

Yeah. Bingo. They don't go away. They, in fact, they come bigger and bigger. You hope that you get bigger problems, right?

And. But yeah, that's fundamentally what entrepreneurship is. But it's a gift to ourselves because it's like, who you are, right? You become who you are in that process of that person who can. Who becomes this person who's solving all these problems. You. That's how you grow, and you have this faith in yourself that you apply in other parts of your life. And I think relationships are the same, you know, like, they bring out a lot of our insecurities and so forth. But, like, if we become the person that. It's about what I bring to the table, because that's all I can control ultimately, right? What I bring to the table, it's so true.

And being willing to be vulnerable and be open first, almost without proof, without something on the other side. I had this beautiful moment at the airport yesterday. A woman said, oh, I'm glad you're refilling your water here. I wouldn't have known this was at sfo. I wouldn't have known to come here. And I said, oh, yeah, duh, duh, duh. And I was also filling a tea. I was putting a tea bag. And she said, that smells delicious. And so I said, it's Rishi Earl Grey. It is delicious here. I have an extra bag. Do you want it? She said, sure. She's like, thank you. That's so sweet. Well, next thing I know, about a minute later, she says, I just got back from Egypt. Here's A coin for you. It has King Tut on the back.

And it's like, oh my God. Yeah.

And I love Egypt and all things Egypt. And we had this beautiful interaction where of course I gave her the tea bag. Not expecting anything. I just wanted her to have. And it was my last one. Doesn't matter, I can always buy more. And then she, in her heart felt like, oh, I want to give you something too. And so I end up exchanging a tea bag for this awesome coin that just came home from Egypt. You know, like, that to me is magic.

Yeah, that's how life works, actually.

Yes. Yes.

I've learned that when you go around and give just freely.

Life gives us way more than we ever could imagine. Like with my books, for example, I work insanely hard on them and I put them out. But with the emails I get from my readers, or the tweets or the reviews, I mean, they're so kind, they're so generous. People give you so much more when you put something out from the heart, it's more than you ever put game. Like, it's beautiful. It's like changed my. I mean, I've never been negative about humanity, but it's really made me realize, just fundamentally, people are good.

Yes.

I love living in New York for this reason because sometimes I sit on the subway and one way that I practice. You talked about making this real. I just picture people's heart and I just look at them and I think, what's this? What's the state of your heart? Where I picture each person.

Just what's underneath? You know, I'm just really almost studying them. They probably think I'm creepy over there to look to. Or I'll sit and I'll close my eyes and I'll just imagine sending love to the whole subway car. Or I'll have a moment of meditation or just something that everyone's trying to get somewhere. And I look at people and sometimes I can look at someone and think. You look like you're working really hard, you know, and just sending good thoughts. Or every time we're in public, we have the opportunity to do this if we wanted to practice this.

And the corollary is it actually really makes you feel good. You can't help it. You can't stand love without feeling love yourself. Right. And it makes you better for yourself.

So we have to talk about this. Because I have struggled. I've read self help books for so long, Kamal. I mean, since high school. And one thing that I always, it bugged me. And I even Wrote a blog post. People have heard me reference this on the podcast called Self Love Formulas are Bullshit. There was a point where I got fed up with this idea that only when you love yourself, then someone else can love you, or only when you love yourself, then you can do xyz. And I felt like that is easier said than done sometimes and that sometimes experiences teach us it's not such a conditional thing. But I also understand what you discovered in Love Yourself of making this a practice and just saying it until you believe it does transform things. So where do you. Where do you think we draw the line between sometimes the pressure to love yourself is not loving yourself because you're not loving the fact that we're imperfect.

And maybe we don't love ourselves that's.

Why 100% of the time.

Yeah, for me, actually, it was a place of desperation. I did it to save my life, you know, I was like really down and suicidal in the whole works, you know, and it was like, I'm gonna get out of this and die trying. And I just started trying things in my head and just trying things. And what shifted my. My mind? I went down deeper. What didn't? I threw it away. There was no, like, Googling on the Internet or whatever. It was just literally sitting around miserable, just trying things. And it really shifted things inside me. And that's. And ironically, and our. I don't know how this happens, but it does. I swear on it. Like, it shifted my life around me without me doing anything except working on my inside. And so, you know, look, I'm a startup guy. I'm also like, you know, I have a degree in biology. My first career was trauma research. And, you know, I read papers in neuroscience. I like applied some of the concepts. I know the way the brain works, but in a very, very practical way for myself, in a desperate way. It wasn't theory, it wasn't like, oh, yes, I'm gonna try to love myself. I mean, it's like, yes, I'm gonna try to eat healthy. Then you just go to McDonald's every day. You know, it was like, literally I had. If you're like, if you have cancer and you like. And the only way you can like, be it as a nutrition, you're going to be very focused on what you eat, right? And for me, it was like my inside, like my mind, my heart and it, it was just a very simple, practical way how to shift things inside me. That's all it was. And it worked. It wasn't anything grander than that. I wasn't doing to save the world. I wasn't doing to save anybody else. I was just doing to save myself.

I can relate to that. Yeah. We realize that a certain amount of suffering is not going anywhere. And when the other things aren't working and you try that and it starts working, the proof is in it.

Yeah. What I've learned is actually. And you know, I'm also kind of lazy. Like, you know, like, I think things are going well. I just stopped doing it. I get slow at it, like. And you know what my life starts to show, I think our minds. I don't know why. Maybe because we've grown up in a world that's wired that way that our minds tend to go to the negative. That's just the way that the. The water flows down a mountain. It's just. That's the gravity. And we have to consciously work on it. Have a practice. Like, you go to the gym, that's a practice. You eat healthy, that's a practice. You know, whatever. I write books, I practice the craft. You don't just get up one day and consistently write books that are really well written. Just no matter what talent you have, it's all a practice. And same thing I realized while I was doing it was like, hey, this whole loving myself, which is saving me is actually a practice. And as a practice, I have to. The more I do it, the better my life is. The less I do it, my life kind of slides.

I thought that was such a key point in Love Yourself where you say you gotta stick with the practice. And you're like, sometimes I get lazy. When life is going well, you stop meditating and you stop doing these things that saved your life. And to remember in the good times as much as the bad, to stick with this practice.

Yeah, it's easy when things are going good, right? You just start, like, totally. You stop coasting. I think it's human nature as well, you know, And I'm really hard on myself. And that's actually loving myself has made me better at not being hard on myself. But I think some of that being hard on myself is actually a good thing because it makes me do these kind of things, you know, where I get upset with myself if I let myself just flounder or float too long.

So, you know, some of these things that actually make construtors. People say, oh, being hard on yourself is a bad thing. Well, not necessarily. You know, it actually is what resulted in some of the greatest things in my life.

That comes from. But yeah, to appreciate that this you know, like, I'm not a fan of like, just like constant, just self help. I think a lot of it's just very cliche driven. A lot of it's very, you know, like we, you know, like almost like platitudes. Great. You know, you feel, you go to, you go to a seminar, you go to a lecture, you feel great a month later, how's your life different? That's what I care about. I care about, literally I come from the startup world, so I care about what works. Literally, that's it. I don't care what the, what I realized was I didn't, wasn't going to spend my time trying to figure out the theory of why things were going to work. All I care was that it worked. That's it. I just care about what works. And so that this stuff started to work. And.

I think a lot of, you know, like, and also the reason why I wrote the book so short and like all my writing tends to be very clean and clear is because I want to take out anything that doesn't serv the reader. I think a lot of self help is just meant to fill pages or it's meant to like, just come from a place of theory. I think if you write versus if you write a place from pure experience, that's real self help. That's just help, period. When you share your experience practically and.

You can tell from reading, there's a certain. When a book is really written from the heart or a conversation is spoken from the heart, there's a fingerprint to it. There's an essence that comes through and it is so powerful and it doesn't need all the extra fluff.

Yeah, yeah. And you know, that takes getting your ego out of the way when you're putting stuff out to the world. Because I think it's easier to hide ourselves with more words than less words.

Right. What are your current morning and evening routines around all this?

Depends. And keep in mind it's not 100% hit rate. Like today it was zero because literally, Greg, get out of bed and run off to a meeting. But normally this is what I work on doing and I hit it most days. And that's a great question, by the way, because it really does make a, does have an effect on the quality of your life. These simple things. I think I read a quote once from this former Navy Seal, like discipline equals freedom. If you create these like, discipline and these discipline areas in our life, these rituals that actually give the rest of our life more freedom and they make us better Mine is very simple. In the morning, I get up, I have my. I have my coffee, I sit on my couch, I do my quick meditation, which is like seven minutes. I'll write and I'll do like the Julia Cameron morning pages, but I'll do it like a few, like half a paragraph. That's all. I mean, it's just to get the mind flowing and then maybe I'll, you know, maybe I'll just dream a little, think a little and meditate and do my love yourself practice and then that's it, get going. It's like maybe 15 minutes if that.

That's awesome.

Yeah, it's very simple if that. And sometimes if I miss it, I'll just do it scattered through the day. But as long as I hit them, my day's better. The nighttime is actually just. That's harder because this, this thing I carry in my pocket called an iPhone or any or phone that's always just pinging me. And. But I've. I've learned that if I can put that thing away the nights, I put that away like a half hour, but hopefully an hour before I go to sleep, my next day is better. It's really interesting because I'm not being distracted by all these things that are hitting my dopamine centers and making me want more. I'm actually now like, okay, the day's winding down. How do I wind down? Maybe I'll watch a movie, maybe I'll read a book, maybe I'll just lie around until I fall asleep. But it's like we need that as human beings. Like this. Unwinding it helps the mind.

I would say it's for brain health is like putting the phone away before you go to sleep and not touching it and even, especially in the morning as well, you know, which, which I succeed at I think about 60% of the time. But I noticed like when I don't touch my phone for the first half hour of the day, the last half hour or the first hour, last hour of the day, things are just better. I'm better. My. I'm just naturally calmer and more just present in life.

I'm the exact same way. We have very similar. Mine are a little longer amount of time because I've noticed, like you said, for me it actually works. But if I can stretch two hours in the morning of not checking my phone until everything's done and then same winding down, it's because I'm kind of prone to anxiety in general. And so yeah, if I check my phone too late in the day that stuff's on my mind. But I know I'm not gonna be productive if I try to work. So we have very. And I also, I find, and I think it'll be fun for you to tell people listening what your short 7 minute love yourself practice is and how long you've been doing it now. But I also, it's funny because I also heard the quote, in commitment, we find freedom. And meditation has been an absolute game changer. And sometimes I'm hesitant to tell people because, oh, I want to be PC and just say, oh, you don't have to do it. But I have to say, for me personally, it is the thing that has worked. And although I have read all these books and many of them have been helpful and given me nuggets, it's having that daily practice for myself, that time of silence and going in within and calming the mind that has consistently created a really nice foundation to then add the soul yeses onto.

Yeah, it's also like, you know, for, you know, I think that there's no way to fail at meditation. The mind is active in a. If a. If you don't like a long meditation, your mind was only quiet for like half a second, you've succeeded totally. You know, that's. I think that's why people are scared by it. And me, I'm. I'm inherently lazy. Like, I'm not going to do meditation for a long time. So I came up with my own. I hacked my own seven minute and it works. And. And that was actually one of the core parts of my. Where I. It was all focusing on loving myself in that process. Right. So imagine seven minutes of just being quiet and doing like this vision. Like there's a. Almost very simple visualizations on just what it's like to be loved by yourself, you know, by life. And it really shifts things. I don't know why, but it just really does, I think in the end. Right. You know, for everyone, we have to find what works for us. But if, you know, like, if everyone is saying, everyone you respect is saying, hey, this worked for me, I think.

Just do it.

And a lot of us who have like, sort of active brains, you know, like, I tell people I've been doing a lot of speaking lately.

The mind that wants to write a book is the same crazy mind that I've had to learn how to kind of corral my whole life. And I recently had a sort of wild meditation where I almost heard or had the thought of my heart talking to me. And it said, as Long as I am beating, I love you. I'm here for you. I'm never leaving you. I cannot be broken. Cracks only more beauty. It's like, spoke to me in a haiku and the same thing. My lungs. We're here. We're breathing for you. Every breath says, I love you. That when I really get quiet and I put aside whatever sort of surface or environmental issues I'm facing, it's like my own body, the heart is beating and my lungs are breathing, and that is the body saying, I love you. I'm supporting you.

That's beautiful. That is, absolutely. And that came from within you, right?

Yeah.

It's not from a book. It's not from, like, something you read on Instagram. When it comes from within you, that's when things shift.

Yes.

And I think meditation gives you that. Like, I've actually noticed that in myself. If something comes up in meditation, just listen to it. Just do it. Don't question it. Just. Just do it, dude. Like, if it comes up, like, call this person. Just call that person when you're done.

I love it.

And it's become, like, almost like a little rule of mine, and it's a great rule to have because it's coming from a deep. It's. You know, it could be coming from your. You know, the real. The real consciousness is the subconscious, where all the, you know, everything like that. We think we are these. These beautiful, logical beings. We're really not. It's the subconscious that drives us. And then the logic. The neocortex just, like, puts a layer on top of it to make. To. To justify it, you know, and when.

We'Re in that alpha wave brain state, we're. So we tap into our deepest intelligence.

It's perfect for anything you're doing for writing, for entrepreneurship, you name it. Like, relationships. It's like. It's the ultimate, like, oracle, and it resides inside ourselves completely.

I even had the funny experience. I was staying with a friend, and I was like, there's a cat named Patches. I'm like, here, kitty, come sit next to me on the couch. She wasn't moving, just staring at me. So just as a game, I went into a meditative state. And I just pictured her on my lap, and I just said, what if I'm just so calm and loving, and I'm just picturing that this cat is already on my lap. And within seconds, she jumped up, placed herself on my lap, and went to sleep.

I love it. I mean, there's something.

How can we not listen? Yeah. And there's another. Oh, yeah, go ahead.

No, please go.

No, I just. I mean, I love the idea of. I consider that part of our intuition as well, that when we quiet the mind and what drops into meditation is kind of that really visceral, intuitive.

Yeah. So it's a deeper self, you know, that can. Normally doesn't get through the chatter. Right.

There's another theme from Rebirth around Phoenix Rising.

Yeah.

Clearly you've had so many of those in your life. I'm curious, I don't know if you even. Even a recent example or you say in the book and there's this themes of hitting bottom, but when you hit bottom, that's when people discover who they really are, what they're made of. And then this theme is kind of throughout. But you say the thing that I feared most came upon me. And I find that so interesting. You know, again, another, I guess, irony of life, the thing we fear the most unlocks our freedom when we actually let it in.

Yeah. We face it. Yeah. Yeah. It's actually like something I've seen. It's a core theme in the book is, you know, about hitting. I don't think you can have Rebirth without hitting some sort of low. And then that's when you decide.

Like, what? Like, okay, like, you remember, like, Gone with the Wind, where she goes, God as my witness, I'll never go hungry again at the end. And my guys, you know, with that, with the clarity and purpose, she says that she's never gonna go hungry again. She'll make things work. Right. That's. I think, which I think sometimes, you know, and bottom can be something minor. It can be anything. It doesn't. There's no true and tried bottom. But I've noticed with anyone I've met in my life who I consider great, that have done great things in the world, they all at some point hit some bottom and in there, like, decided, like, never again. I'm gonna get out of this and I'm gonna just not, you know, and that's when. That's when they, like you rise when you just realize what you're made of. It's like ultimately, it's a personal journey when you know what you're made of and you got out of something hard, like, you carry that with you and you apply that to things in life. And that's one of the reasons why I made that core theme of this book. And, you know, the character hitting bottom, but also the way he goes from there, because it continues, you know, trying to say yes, at least, you know, pairing and pestering him, which was fun to write.

I know this is a big accomplishment to write this novel. I'm so curious. What drew you to it and what was the experience like, oh, my God.

Putting this together, A novel with character and dialogue. I know, but, you know, like all that decade of writing and rewriting and studying the great writers, you know, at night and sending out to publishers and getting rejection letters and saying, you know, then deciding, okay, do I quit or do I continue on? And deciding each time, you know, okay, I'm going to be a better writer and going out and becoming a better writer. So that eventually, I used to tell myself, eventually one day they will chase me, you know. And you know what? I'm at that point now. It's really, really interesting. But, you know, it's not instant success. It took a long. It was a long journey of like a lot of, you know, there was some. Every time you get rejected, let's be honest, even if you get used to it, it's not fun, right?

But, you know, the rejections got better and better over the years that told me I was getting a better, becoming a better writer. Like all the way from form letters to like personal phone calls, you know, the whole form letters to like signed letters, then letters with like, form letters with sign but with a handwritten note on it, to like emails to personal phone calls to in person meetings, you know, like, that told me that, okay, I'm getting better and better and better. And that's what I applied to writing this book. But then I also took the wisdom, if I can use those words, for what I learned with loving yourself and living your truth, those things I've learned in my life that really matters and weaving those truths into this book so that, like, so by the time someone's read the story, they have actually some of those life truths and the lessons have been woven into them and they're better for having read it. That's my goal with these books.

Oh, and no doubt that's happening because we think, I think, not we. But there's so many books where they're loaded with studies and anecdotes and just cramming it all in. And yours are so simple. Like they're. They're powerful and beautiful. So simple is not an insult.

In this case, it's no, thank you.

It's the Mark Twain quote. I would have written a shorter letter, but I didn't have the time. And rebirth is perfect. And it is. It's. I love that because it's a novel. The reader we go on a journey, but there are so many nuggets throughout that have come through.

Are.

The characters based on people that you met on the Camino?

Some are. Some are made up, some are. You know, but even if they're based on characters I met, they're my memories of them and then me creating more of them to serve a story. So it's very interesting. Like, you know, the danger of hanging out with a writer is you will end up in a book. You know, you'll know. You'll see a line there like, wait a minute. I said that to him two years ago. Like, what? But now it's some French guy saying it, you know, like.

Right.

Like, the French character was a lot of fun to write. Louis.

Huh?

Louiek. I was wondering how you say that.

Yeah, it's a very, like, French name from, like, the Britain, Brittany area. Like a very classic fisherman. I based that character. Someone I met, this amazing Frenchman who taught me a lot about, like, who took me under his wing and said, I'm gonna civilize this American. Taught me how to open bottled champagne properly, how to, like, appreciate stinky cheese and all this stuff. But I took him. I created this character in the book based on him. But a lot of the dialogue is, like, written. Just me writing what I want this character to say so that it serves a story in the end. When you write a story, anything that doesn't serve the story, no matter how beautiful, how good it is, you gotta cut it.

So these are people I've met along the way of my life, and some actually on the Camino. Santiago. But, you know, there's a lot of just me. I'm just not the main character. I'm like, all. I'm in all these characters. That's. That's writing. Yeah. And it's. It's an amazing experience where different parts, you can express themselves in different ways or different characters. It's really cool. Yeah, it really. It's the hardest thing from writing I've ever done. It's also. But I pulled it off. And I'm amazed what I pulled off. I mean. But I had to give it everything. I gave this book. I took, like, all these months, and I shut everything off. I was like, okay, I'm just gonna be. I'm not gonna go out. I'm not gonna drink. I'm not gonna do this. I'm gonna be celibate. Everything I had, I gave to this book. And just morning till night, just worked on it, worked on it, worked on it. And until I knew, I Had it right. And then I blew away. The publisher, the head of Hachette Books, sent me a beautiful letter saying, like, you want to edit it more? I have to stop you and say, this is enough. You've got it. You've done it.

Oh, my gosh. Wow.

Yeah. That's really.

That's amazing. That's like the highest peaks of the writing Himalayas, you know, like, after all you've been through, because we touched on this earlier, how did you know, getting all the rejections, how did you discern whether to keep going or whether this path. Oh, you know, you could have easily said, oh, it's just not meant for me. It's not in the cards. Life's giving me a no. I'm going to put this down. How did you know to keep. To keep going?

Because I just had to. That was the thing, you know, when you just have to just writing Words mattered. I had to tell stuff. I had to write. And I was never the one showing my manuscript to people, you know, like, no, but I had to. Like, I had to get to the point where I could tell something that mattered. And this, for some reason, this was the craft that appealed to me. There's many ways you could. You could be a singer, an actor, or a dancer. You could just be a human being while interacting with human beings. You know, there's no special trick. For some reason, this was the one that just was my thing, and I don't know why. Maybe I read a lot of books as a kid, and books were my refuge. And I think ultimately, as human beings, we learn. We share knowledge and wisdom best through stories, and we learn best through stories. You know, since the day of sitting on the fire around the fire in the caves, you know, I just had to. There was no.

Grand plan like that I would even make it, you know, I just had to.

Yeah, that's.

Yeah. And, you know, like, it was like, not many people believed in me at the time either, you know, and that's what kind of tells you, like, this is really too important. When you still don't listen to those around you, continue doing your thing, that's when you know you're onto something real.

Yeah, that's what I. That's. I call those soul goals. And you know, that no matter how it comes into being, you're not giving up on it. And there's a real grit in that. When you have landed on something that in your heart and soul, you know, this is happening, and I'll go through whatever and I'm not taking no for an answer that's so affirming.

And it's funny how life works. Life has its own path. I think when you show this level of commitment to life, it makes things happen, but usually in a way you don't expect. Like, look, I didn't start writing to write a book about loving. A short little book on loving yourself. I didn't believe in that concept. I used to laugh at the word love, you know? Now I laugh at myself a lot. That guy used to laugh at the word love, but I really did. But yet I had to get to a place where that saved my life and then to share it. All those years of writing had given me the craft and the ability to actually then share in a simple manner that just worked for people. Like, I never had this goal of being the guy who's gonna write that book.

Well, especially because, like you said, you're kind of from the venture VC entrepreneur world.

Yeah.

But it must have felt so strange to wave a flag now of a book called Love Yourself and sort of, like, come out of the closet in that way among such, like, a rationalist, hardcore rationalist crowd.

I was. I was terrified that I was gonna destroy my career by publishing that book. And I really expected that, actually. And instead, it transformed my life. Put me on the map in a way. That's me. I don't have to be anything. I don't have to pretend to be anyone. I'm just me. That's a beautiful place to be, I tell you. And that's the gift that's putting out, Taking that risk, being vulnerable to the world and just putting it out there. Gave me was. Now I walk around just being me, and my life works damn fine.

That's so amazing. How wild is it that you thought this would ruin your career and instead transformed your whole life?

Yeah, it's funny, right? But it's the taking those leaps of faith, right? Because taking the risk of putting this book out because I knew would help people was. I was willing to do that. That was worth more than I destroyed my career. Wow. I'll figure something out. I'll start over somewhere where no one knows me.

And instead, yeah, it has changed my life. And it really is. That comes back to the thing you're talking about, being vulnerable. I was just vulnerable through a book.

How has it changed your life since?

My gosh.

First of all, it showed that my writing works, right? That all these years I was working on something, it actually works. And the second was all these people started reaching out to me and just like I thought I would never be able to get a job in Silicon Valley. That would be to raise capital in Silicon Valley again. Instead, you know what I do now? I'm the guy who actually writes the checks. I'm the guy, I'm the vc, right? But here's the interesting. When I wrote the book, had I lost all my money? I was in debt, credit card debt, I had no money. I was going to have to go get a job. And the book came out, I started doing what? I started paying my rent. And when I started paying my rent and I didn't have to go immediately go get a job, then I could sit down and think, what do I want to do? It gave me the freedom to then go build this venture fund because rent's our biggest expense. You take that out, all of a sudden you can optimize the other parts of your life where. And it allowed me to actually go do what I really wanted to do. And so now I get to do the two things I love. One is like helping entrepreneurs through the venture fund. And the two is I write books because it's my own fund. I created it. So I'm my own boss. You know, I can write, take the time and write these books that actually really seem to help people.

That is so incredible. And speaking of which, this book Love Yourself has 2,214 reviews on Amazon. And it's just about five stars. I mean, and that's just the people who took the time to write a review.

Oh yeah, it's so true.

Once your rent. What a beautiful thing that from zero, this book paid your rent and that does so remove the chokehold on our options and creativity because, you know, your basic living is covered. Wow.

Never expected that.

Oh my God, it's so such a cool story. I feel like somehow there's a book let even if it's a smaller book in that, like what happened after Love Yourself?

Yeah, I actually want to write an update and put it in there.

Yeah.

And actually loving Yourself led to rebirth, which is a story I was originally working on when I was writing and collecting those rejection letters. But then it gave me the confidence, like, look, I have still have this one story I really want to tell, but now I can go work on it and put that out there and Love Yourself led to rebirth, you know, directly.

It's so incredible.

Yeah, it's beautiful like too. And I think in life we experience this magic, and I use the word magic. Someone reached out to me. Are you like a Wiccan or something? I'm like I don't even know what that means.

I love the word magic. Is one of my words. Was one of my words of 2016.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I don't know what that means. I mean I'm open minded about everything but like no, but I use the word magic. I talk about how life just really works, you know, And I think it really works when you back to your thing. What Open your heart, be vulnerable, put a give out to the world. Life just works. It's like life is almost like, it's like one of the, you know, like there's Newton's three laws of physics, you know. You know, it's like there's life laws, I think and one of them is you gotta really give openly, you know, and life will give you far greater return and in ways you don't expect. It's not unless you give to a particular person. It comes back from that person. Right, right. H comes back from life. All of life and life, you know, that's why. And that's. There's no other word I can think of better than that which. It's magical.

It is magical completely. And one of those life laws, I call it flow with a capital F. There's a certain flow almost like the meridian lines of our life. And if we tap into them, life is beautiful, life is magic. And we hear that, we hear that. There's a term we hear thrown about go with the flow or lean into the flow. I'm curious how, how do you practice really tapping in and surrendering you. Even Kat, one of the characters in the book says on going with the flow, she has faith that life will provide let life unfold. All of our experiences, even painful lead us somewhere. How do you practice leaning in or surrendering to that greater flow of life?

Honestly, I think goes back to the other thing we're talking about. Meditation really helps you, that helps you be in tune with it. Because all meditation is letting the mind do its thing. But you just get in touch with your deeper self while the mind is doing its thing and you carry that with you during your day. The more you do it, the more you're in touch with your inner self, which is where the truth is. So I think when you consistently do something like meditation or practice of quietness and stillness, it leads naturally to just naturally your inclination becomes, shifts and goes towards being in the flow in life.

Yeah. And I think it also meditation and practices of getting quiet, they show us the one next step. And that flow is ultimately a series of what's the one next step and we don't have to know.

Oh, that's brilliant. You're so right. You can't, if you're looking, you know, waiting for like have a solid future planned out for you. It doesn't work that way. You just. That's where the word faith. Right. You go to the next step. The next step, Absolutely.

Okay, on that note, because you do VC funding, what's your take on business plans? Is it even possible to have a business plan? Do you recommend doing it or is that, you know, because this is interesting business. Yeah, let's say no. I don't know.

It's more of an exercise. It's more of an exercise for yourself to understand what your business is about and what you. What is possible. But business plans are all like, they're wishful thinking documents. That's all they are. You know, the proofs in execution. In fact, I don't look at for early stage. I don't even look at business plans. You know, you talk to the entrepreneurs, you see what they've done before, what they're working on, what their progress is. Product trumps anything. Trying to pray a product or traction anything trumps any business plan ever. I think business plan is actually people come at it from a place of being scared that it gives them something to feel comfortable on. But it's like all build a business plan is wishful thinking you can take. I remember the first time I watched like this MBA guy do a business plan in front of me. I realized, oh my God, he's just manipulating numbers to make. To make it sound good. It's just manipulating numbers to tell us which story you wish will happen. But the stories happen from taking those steps. It doesn't come from just this wishful thinking. So I would say it's a good exercise to actually, it makes you think about maybe some of the pitfalls, maybe down the road of what you expect. But outside of that, I don't pay attention to business plans.

That's how I tell people the same thing with career plans. Yeah, that's wishful thinking too. That's why the subtitle of Pivot is the only move that matters is your next one.

Because it's perfect.

We can't.

It's for life. It's the perfect move for life, actually.

Yeah, I know. You kind of. We start to wrap up, you end the book. You say, that's the magic of life. Anyway, one never knows the adventure around the corner. So as you are launching Rebirth, what next adventures are you setting Your sights toward.

I honestly have no idea. I literally have no idea what it's like. People are like, what are you up to next? I'm like, I have no idea what you're doing, what I'm doing. And I'm just making it up step by step. That's all I know.

What I love too is you've worked so hard on rebirth and I really think books are the ultimate serendipity popcorn or lottery tickets.

Yeah, you don't need to know because.

Your book is going to find its way out in the world and people are just the most magical people and opportunities are going to start contacting you.

Yeah, it really is. It's. That is a special thing. It really is. And books go and fly. You know, I think books are just things with wings. They go and, you know, you put all your heart into them and then you set them free and they go fly and do their thing.

I, I agree completely. And, and I'm. When, you know, I'll have some goals, but in my heart of hearts, I feel this book is going to do whatever it's meant to do and not to judge it. And success is that I did it and I released it to the world. And yeah, you know, don't tell the publisher, but it's like I'm not attached to any metrics after that. Like I don't have control over that part.

That's actually wise as well because actually that's wise. You know Cheryl Richardson, she wrote take time for your life. She's a huge self help author. She was an Oprah for a year. She's legit. She's the real deal. And she's actually become a friend of mine, a very close friend of mine, because of love yourself. She read it, tweeted to me and we just started tweeting back and forth and she's like, seriously legit. Like her first book, take time for your life sold like over a million copies. Right. It's pretty impressive. And the funny thing is, years ago I. That was one of the few books I carried with me when I moved from upstate New York to California for the dot com boom. And here we are all these years later, she's become such a dear friend.

Wow.

Because of love.

Magic.

Magic, right.

More magic.

So she was telling me, like, listen, you know, your publisher is going to all try to, you know, get you to engineer it and like get it all like the first week of launch, blah, blah, blah. But she's like, you know, you can only do so much. You do your work you put it out, she said, you know, like, her book didn't take off until like a year after it was out because then it started getting discovered. You know, it sells it so well, but then it just kind of like was going along and then Oprah discovered it or someone else discovered it. Right. It's like you don't control that part. You control. And putting it out first is create the best thing you possibly can create in that time in your life. Put your full heart and soul into it. Give it to the world and, you know, share with the world, do your work. But that's all we can do. Then, you know, it's. I think serendipity is the, is a key portion of magic, and that happens when you do that. And we can engineer. You cannot engineer that.

So beautifully said.

It's not what. Yeah, it's not what the publisher wants to hear. I know. I have a call with him after this as well.

Yeah, we could, we can kind of chuckle on this podcast and then, you know, you're like, uh huh, uh huh, Here are my plans. I'm on it. But it is both. It's. You're gonna, you're gonna put effort out there. We're doing this podcast and, and at the end of the day, you'll, you know, you've done everything you can to write the best book. And it will find its way and it will find its wings.

Yeah. And, you know, I can actually now I'm at the point I can hold a book in my hands and I, and I skim through them like, and I read it. I'm like, I have actually created something really special. My God, like, to feel that way is. Just feel that way is amazing.

Yeah.

You know, and so it's who you become in the process. I gave so much of this book, but, like, look, now it exists. It's real.

What a gift to myself.

Yeah. It's its own. It's its own rebirth. Like a new phase starts now.

Yeah, it is.

I love how you put that as a gift to yourself and hopefully to everyone who's listening. Kamal, thank you for this wonderful conversation. Where can people find you, you and the book if they want to keep in touch?

I have a page for it up on the web. Rebirthfable.com or just look me up on Amazon.

Twitter, the usual suspects. It's pretty simple. I even started a Facebook page, which is really weird, but it's kind of fun to connect with my readers there. But it's kind of weird. Like here, here's more of Me Bizarre. I'm usually pretty private. It's a growth.

It is a tricky balance. I feel the same way. I really struggle with social media because I. If I had my druthers, I'd just be reading in my apartment, you know, like, I'm not really. I don't want to be on the computer any much more than I need to be. But I understand some people really love it.

And it says, actually, you know, the beauty of social media is so many of my readers reach out to me on Twitter and so forth and that's amazing to connect with people who read your work and just some of them have become really good friends. I mean, it's amazing. I mean, I wish there was a more amazing word than amazing. That's all I can say, right?

Yes. It is such a gift. If we want to talk about what success is. Every time I get a note from a reader that is priceless. That is one of those. One of those is worth writing the book. And then we are blessed beyond measure to get one a week, one a day. I mean, whatever comes in, it's all. That's how I think Chris Gilba once said it just, that's how he gets paid. Like, nice emails are his paycheck, you know, that's how he measures his success.

Yeah. People are so kind and giving and they share your work with others and like, they let you know. It's like, it's given me such a rock solid faith in human beings doing this, just how fundamentally good people are.

Yes, I agree. I agree. And that and attracting what you put out. I've always been nervous in creative endeavors to put stuff out, but I noticed.

The right people come in and then the most generous, warm, loving, positive, you know, it's just beautiful to connect with people on that same frequency around the world and across all boundaries because of thanks to the Internet.

And then we're in the same city.

So, yeah, we'll have to cross paths IRL again soon.

I would love it. I would absolutely love it.

Awesome. Kamal, thank you so much. And big thanks to everybody for listening.

Yeah, thank whoever's listening. Thank you so much, Jenny, you're wonderful. I just babble. So appreciate listening.

No such wisdom. Thank you.

My pleasure.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter. Enny underscore Blake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.