60: How Emotionally Agile Are You? Strategies for Setbacks with Susan David

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For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello everybody. Welcome back to the Pivot Podcast. I am so excited to be here today with a friend, Susan David, who wrote a great book called Emotional Agility. Get Unstuck, Embrace Change, and Thrive in Work and Life. Fun fact. Susan and my book are book twins. They came out the same week and Pivot was all about how can we be more agile to change and how can we get better at asking and answering what's next? So I was so thrilled to meet Susan through a mutual friend, Dori Clark, and hear about her book Emotional Agility, because she has a whole career in studying this and what it really means to be emotionally agile. And I'm just so excited for today's conversation. First, a little bit about Susan. She is a psychologist on the faculty of Harvard Medical School, co founder and co director of the Institute of coaching at McLean Hospital, and CEO of evidence based Psychology, a boutique business consultancy. She's an in demand speaker and advisor and has worked with senior leadership at hundreds of major organizations including the United Nations, Ernst and Young and the World Economic Forum. Susan is originally from South Africa and now living just outside of Boston. Susan, welcome to the show.

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

So I set out to write Pivot, partly because I was not feeling very resilient to change. I often describe it as I felt like I was in a raft in the ocean getting rocked by every wave and other people were sailing through life in a cruise liner. I'm curious for you either how you developed emotional agility and got into studying the subject matter or even the sides of emotional agility that you struggled with that may have led you to seek out this topic in the first place.

What a beautiful question. To start with So I first became interested in questions around emotional agility when I was a child. I grew up in apartheid South Africa. And while I was a white South African, and therefore not subject to the same chaos and cruelty as so many of my friends, it was nonetheless a time of great complexity. And so from a very early age, I became interested in this question, which is, what does it take internally in the way we deal with our thoughts, our emotions, and the stories that we tell ourselves that either hold us back or that enable us ultimately to thrive in the world? So that was really my starting point, and then that was galvanized and became the catalyst to my entire career when I was a teenager. So I was 16 years old, my father was diagnosed with terminal cancer. And I experienced what so many listeners will have experienced in their own way, which is, on the one hand, people coming to me and saying to me, just be positive. Everything will be fine. Everything will be okay. Just be happy. But in the reality of my experience, it wasn't okay. My father was dying and then dead, and I had this remarkable English teacher who invited us to keep journals. And so began the secret, silent correspondence with this amazing woman who really helped me to show up to my experience. So coming round to the question that you asked, what struck me out in this career, what moved me into my career was really recognizing that so much of the narrative that exists in society, which is just get on with it. You know, I know you're unhappy in your job, but at least you've got a job. Or just be positive. What it ultimately does is it can stop us as individuals from being able to be honest and authentic with ourselves and can actually undermine our own thriving resilience and capability around change. So, yes, I had this amazing experience with this woman, and it really was the front runner of my research then in emotions. And really my work, all of my work, asks this question, which is, what does it take internally to thrive in a world that is both beautiful but simultaneously very fragile?

You have such a powerful story, and it's so important what you said. You made a couple points in there. That, one, just the pressure to be. Be happy or bounce back to happiness is actually counterproductive. And two, this. This habit that we have at least here in the states of diminishing any way we feel as, oh, these are first world problems. Or as you said, I grew up in apartheid South Africa, but I was white, you know, and I didn't have the same hardships. And so it can sometimes make any lesser issue feel like unworthy of our attention so how do you respond when someone, you know with the whole spectrum that life can throw at us?

So absolutely, and I think this is critical. A friend of mine who recently died of stage 4 breast cancer described this cultural narrative as the tyranny of positivity. She said to me, you know, Susan, if it was just a case of me being positive and that would somehow keep me alive, then all of my friends in my stage 4 breast cancer support group would indeed be alive today. And that somehow this idea that we should just push forward, be positive, be happy, what it does is it, number one, actually makes me feel culpable in my own death. Somehow I didn't manage to think my way out of it, or that I'm responsible for my own illness. But secondly, that it stops us from. And she felt this in a very, very intimate way, it stops me from being authentic with my experience and that even in my death I can still make choices about how to live. And I think from an emotions perspective, this is really important because we do live in a society that tells us to be happy. And often we grow up with what in psychology are termed display rules. The idea that, you know, we can't be jealous or when you angry, go to your room and come up with a smile on your face, because we don't do anger here in our family. And so what can happen is people can firstly start becoming avoidant sometimes of issues that they really do need to face into. And I don't necessarily even mean major big life issues, but sometimes even things like, you know, I'm feeling stressed today, or I'm feeling overwhelmed, or is this the right career for me? So what we can do is we can often minimize those things in the service of positivity. But more importantly, and as an emotions researcher, this is where so much of my work focuses. And that is that our emotions, including the most difficult emotions, often contain signposts to things that we value. So for example, if someone is feeling guilty because they are not a good parent in their own words, that guilt might feel uncomfortable, but it's a signpost of a value for that individual which is being present and connected with my children is really important, or someone who is really angry because their idea was stolen at work, what that anger is is a signpost to G Issues of equity and fairness are really important to me. So when we just discount our difficult emotions and our difficult experiences, we also then struggle to and fail very often to learn from them and more importantly, to change the situation and to bring about effective on the ground pivots in your language or ways to shape our environment effectively.

I love using these tougher emotions as signposts to what we value. And there's another part in the book that really jumped out of the book. And I almost included it in the pivot afterward that I'm working on, except I had to cut it for space, which is this idea that actually our brains work differently when we're in a bad or quote, negative mood. And you say that the, the upside of quote moods is that it actually slows us down enough to process and think differently or think about what's most important to us. Whereas in high flying times where we're just sailing along, we're not necessarily as introspective.

Yeah, this is a critical idea. Again, emotions have bad press, and particularly difficult emotions have bad press. And so what can happen is we start feeling that these are bad emotions or good emotions, or even that we've got bad thoughts and good thoughts. And what this does is it denies firstly the really beautiful reality of humanity, which is that our emotions are fundamental to, literally, from an evolutionary perspective, our survival. If we are able to recognize that the person who I think is about to hug me is actually about to attack me, that recognition of emotions in that person's face, but also the recognition of my own fear enables me to run away or to respond and react differently. So our emotions are fundamental to our survival. And our emotions also really, in many, many profound ways, enable us to think through situations, to slow down, to be more critical when being more critical is necessary. And these ways of being in the world can actually be harnessed. And so one of the very key things that I talk about in emotional agility is that emotions are data, not directions. So just because you feel guilty or because you feel angry, doesn't mean you need to act on it. But by the same token, we need to recognize that there is just amazingly beautiful data that is often contained within our difficult experience and our difficult emotions.

That is such an important and helpful distinction that they don't have to inform the actions that we take, but their data. One thing that I think many people, I can at least say for myself that I struggle with is what I've always called getting flooded. And you call in the book getting hooked, which is something happens and it's that feeling of emotion suddenly welling up and flooding my system. I can feel it physiologically. I'm One of those HSPs, a highly sensitive person, so little things can activate me. And I've had to really learn practices like meditation Yoga and journaling just to generally not get so rocked. So how do you define getting hooked and how do we unhook? And I know you talk about this in the book so that we can be more intentional about the actions we take even when strong emotions arise.

So very critically, the first thing that I talk about that's really fundamental here is this idea that so often when we having difficult experiences, we do get very judgy about them. So often we'll say, I'm feeling good, I'm feeling bad, I shouldn't have that feeling. I should have that feeling. I'm angry with my boss, but I shouldn't be angry. And so often, even in our very difficult experiences, we move into a space of internal struggle. And again, much of this, or a lot of this is societal as well as our own environments that we may have grown up in or personality factors and so on. And so what we often do is we move into a space of internal struggle about whether we should or shouldn't. And what we know is that physiologically, when we move into that space, it can actually make everything exacerbated. It can amplify the difficult experience. So for example, someone who says, I'm feeling really stressed, but I shouldn't be stressed, we know that what we see from a psychological perspective is what is called amplification, where the very thing that they try not to think about or try not to feel is, comes back and is often stronger. So one of the first things that.

I talk about, by the way, I want you to come back to one of the first solutions that is something I'm so guilty of. And they call it the some goodest meditation, spiritual bypassing, which is, well, if I was more spiritual, if I was more enlightened, I wouldn't be feeling this. And it's not necessarily true. So I don't know if you've heard that term, but would love to hear your thoughts on that. And then please continue with the solution.

No, and that's amazing because what it does is it gets you into a space of internal struggle where you're using cognitive resources to decide whether you should or shouldn't feel something or should or shouldn't feel something, or invalidating yourself. And one of the core things that I talk about in emotional agility is what I call showing up. And the idea behind this is that in Viktor Frankl's terms, Viktor Frankl talks to this idea that between stimulus and response, there is a space. And in that space is our power to choose. And it's in that Choice that lies our growth and freedom. Now, when we are hooked, and I'll define what I mean by hooked in a second when we hooked, there's no space between stimulus and response. You know, we're thinking, we're feeling. The emotions are big, the thoughts are big, and we are often acting immediately and so often because this feels bad, what we do first up is we try to control, push aside, invalidate ourselves. So one of the first aspects of emotional agility is very much about literally ending any struggle you have with yourself as to whether you should or shouldn't feel something or think something by dropping the rope. If we can simply notice, gee, I'm having the thought that, or gee, I'm noticing that I'm feeling undermined in this meeting, and so I'm starting to shut down, or I'm noticing the urge to walk out of the room when my partner starts in on the finances. If we can start noticing our thoughts, emotions and sensations for what they are, thoughts, emotions and sensations, not reality, then we start creating this really important space. And I talk about this a lot in the book in very, very practical ways. But one of the things that you mentioned earlier is this idea of being hooked. And to come back to the definition of what I mean when I'm talking about being hooked is that there is nothing wrong with a difficult thought, emotion, or story. A thought might be, I'm not good enough. A emotion might be, I am fearful, I'm anxious. A story might be, I'd really love to make this leap into a new career, but I'm just not destined for it, or I know that I'll fail, and so I'm going to shut down. There is nothing inherently wrong with these thoughts, emotions and stories. They are so fundamentally, beautifully human. That is your brain doing the job that your brain was designed to do, which is to protect yourself and to help you navigate a world that is often unpredictable. So that is not what I mean by being hooked. What I mean by being hooked is where your thoughts, your emotions and your stories drive you in ways that are incongruent with your values, incongruent with your intentions. So when those thoughts and emotions and stories become directions and are taking you away from, I feel like I'm being undermined. And so I may as well just shut down in the meeting and you shut down or you walk out of the room. And so you can't have difficult conversations with your spouse or you don't go for that career because you've somehow talked your way out of it. That's when you hooked.

Thank you. Yes, it's so helpful. I love how much you celebrate the diversity of the human experience. And it's such a great reminder to just, number one, first and foremost, not reject the fact that we're experiencing any certain emotion in the first place, just so that we're all on the same page. I would love to zoom out a little bit and hear your definition of what is emotional agility? What is in your mind, what makes somebody emotionally agile? We've talked about some of the impediments to it, but I would love to hear in your words.

Absolutely. So the way that I describe emotional agility is that emotional agility is the ability to come to your inner experience with courage, with compassion, and with curiosity, and to make choices and act in ways that are values aligned. So these components are really important. And again, this Viktor Frankl quote really embodies that. It's when we are hooked. There's no space between stimulus and response. But if we are able to come to our thoughts, our emotions, and our stories with courage, why courage? Because often our stories contain things that are scary to us. There may be a career that you want to go into, but that you know in your heart, truthfully, might be the wrong career for you, or where you know that a relationship might be the wrong relationship. So there's a lot of courage that's often involved in being effective with ourselves. Curiosity. Because we need to be able to again notice our thoughts, our feelings and stories for what they are. Thoughts, feelings, and stories. They are data, not directions. And then with compassion. And, you know, when you talk about the normalizing of the diversity of human experience, I think that this is really so critical to us. You know, you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast how you felt you were floundering in your career and you looked around and everyone else seemed to be doing so well and to know which path they were on. But I think we live in a world that sells us that narrative. And yet I think almost everyone, every day goes through this experience of am I in the right place? Am I doing the right thing? Am I acting in ways that are congruent with how I want to love, live, parent, lead. And so I think if we can start to normalize this very human experience in a way that is compassionate, that's critical to emotional agility. I'm doing the best that I can with who I am, with what I've got in the world as it is. And even if I could be doing more, I'm still doing the best that I can with who I am, with what I've got in the world as it is. So courage, curiosity, and compassion, and then the other parts to emotional agility. I said, and then act in ways that are congruent with our values. Because what's critical here is we might be fearful. We might notice that fear with curiosity, we might notice that fear with compassion. But you know, who's in charge here? The thinker or the thought? Who's in charge? The emotion or me? The person who's big enough to contain all of my emotions, who's in touch or in charge? The story or me? The person has many stories. And so ultimately, emotional agility, very critically is about being able to take actions that are values aligned. So I might be fearful of my next career move or fearful of a change to notice that with compassion and to still take action that is congruent with my values. Because again, we live in a world that tells us that we should get rid of our fear. You know, conquer your fear. When you conquer fear, you'll be able to apply for a new job. Or when you conquer your fear. But no, no, courage is not an absence of fear. Courage is fear walking. Courage is about noticing your fear with curiosity and compassion and choosing to apply for the job. Put your hand up, learn and grow in ways that matter to you and are values aligned.

This has been one of my biggest soapboxes since the book came out as well, which is that we have such a masculine language in our culture around fear, which is like, crush your fear, smash your fear, destroy your fear. You know, just such aggressive language. And I've been saying I call it domesticating dragons. I think I'll do a podcast on this at some point that there's no need to even slay your dragons. It's okay. Like, your fear is just trying to protect you. So I've taken to this process of just naming the dragon. Like, hi, dragon, there you are. You know, clearly it's a fear, and as long as one keeps going, it's fine. The dragon, you could domesticate it by not trying to kill it or eliminate it. And certainly that never worked for me. It worked so much better to say, you know what, I do feel a little anxious and insecure and unsure, but, oh, well, I'm going to keep going anyway.

It's so important. You're completely right. We do live in a world that talks to this idea of conquering, getting rid of. And what's really interesting from, again, a psychological perspective is we know that we've all had this you on a diet, and you aren't allowed to think of chocolate cake because you're not allowed chocolate cake. What do you want? Chocolate cake. What do you dream of? Chocolate cake. So as soon as we try to control. And in the book, I talk about bottling our experiences, pushing them aside, what actually happens psychologically is they come back. They come back magnified. And so in the book, I talk about this idea that there's this wonderful horror movie where I won't go into the details, but there's this wonderful horror movie where this woman has this big bundle of fears, and instead of trying to conquer the fears, she has them in the basement where she actually tends to them and notices them and nurtures them. Now, that's, again, it's not this idea that we've got to pay too much attention to our fears, but if we can hold them in our hearts and notice them, then what we enable ourselves to do is to breathe into our experience and to make choices that are values aligned.

I love that you mentioned your teacher who had you do reflective writing and how helpful that was. And I know there's the Pennebacker study about writing 20 minutes. When I was doing research for Pivot, I found two different things. I found some studies that said writing is one of the best things you can do, whether it's Julia Cameron's morning pages, three hands free written, three pages freehand, or 20 minutes of writing what you're struggling with. And then I also came across research that seemed to say, well, just writing about your problems doesn't help because you might get stuck in them or it might make them feel worse. So I'm curious what particular writing you've found most helpful and if you've seen any of that conflicting research as well.

Absolutely. So in Emotional Agility, I describe how often when we're going through difficult experiences, we tend to do one of two things, and sometimes people flip from one to the other. The first is bottling the experience, trying to push it aside. So I'm unhappy in my job, but at least I've got a job. So let me just forge forward or there's change going on in the organization. I'm just going to ignore it until it all goes away. So often when we bottle, we're pushing our emotions and our thoughts aside. And what the research on expressive writing, which is what this body of research is called, shows is that that doesn't work. So in this research, what happens is people are invited into a study where they're asked to do something very simple, which is to write for 20 minutes a day for just three days. And they often ask to write about very difficult experiences. So anything that's emotionally salient, emotionally relevant, it might be a job loss, it might be a career struggle. Some people wrote about death of a loved one or a rape or, you know, really traumatic and difficult experiences. And what the research finds is that showing up to your difficult experiences is fundamental to our health and well being. However, at the beginning of this answer, I mentioned that there were two different ways that we might deal with our emotional experience. The one is bottling. The other is what we call brooding. Brooding is where you say to yourself, oh my goodness, there's change at work. This is terrible. The organization is terrible. I'm being treated so badly. And what happens is we get stuck in our emotional experience, dwelling and dwelling and dwelling on it. Now what the writing research shows is that writing is incredibly powerful. But there are core components to that writing that give that writing its superpower. Simply dwelling and going over and over and over on the page or in your mind or even with a friend. What we call co brooding. Isn't this terrible? This is awful. This is a horrible workplace. What it does is, it actually is. Both bottling and brooding are predictive of depression, lower levels of well being and lower levels of goal attainment. So you're less likely to get that good job. You're less likely to be able to change careers if you bottle or brood. So the superpower in writing or even in talking through your experience with yourself in your own mind, you were saying early on saying you stress is firstly about showing up to that experience. But secondly, there's incredible power in what is called effective labeling of the experience where you're not just saying this is unfair, this is unfair. I'm stressed, I'm stressed, I'm stressed. But you're starting to move to a place of insight. So for example, there's a world of difference between being stressed versus disappointed, stressed versus fearful, stressed versus angry, stressed versus gee, I thought I'd be in a different place in my life than I am now. And I've got a real sense of sadness. And so what the research shows, just to summarize, is that this writing is incredibly powerful. But if it's simply used as a mechanism to brood, then it loses its power. The power comes through the being able to develop a sense of insight and effective labeling and really trying to kind of understand what's going on for yourself. That's the mechanism by which effective writing happens.

I love what you said in there. About brooding and not getting to that point. And it's interesting, even with friends sometimes. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what amount of venting can be helpful, if any. Sometimes even with my coaching clients.

Or.

A friend will stop and say, okay, do you need to vent? I'll set a timer for two minutes or five minutes. Or we'll say, can I just vent for two minutes? And then I'll get it out of my system and I'm done. So what do you think? Is venting helpful? As long as it doesn't turn into brooding or co. Brooding, yeah.

So when venting is done on occasion, there's nothing wrong with it. We all do it. And the same goes for bottling. If you go into a very important job interview and you've just gotten some really bad news and you're unhappy, you know you're not necessarily going to go into the job interview crying your eyes out.

So doing a little bit of bottling or a little bit of brooding is. There's nothing inherently unhealthy about that. I mean, this is after all, we're talking about emotional agility where we don't want to get into stuck in one way of doing things. But what the research shows is that when we have a tendency. So when, for example, you are going on and on and on and on with a friend about your father in law's inability to handle his finances or about your unfair boss, and yet you are not moving to the stage of either having a conversation with that individual or shaping your job role so that it's different and that you aren't feeling as victimized. What can happen is we can get into the space where we do so much of this brooding that it becomes a tendency and it's the tendency to brood that is ineffective. So again, you can hear that I'm a research nerd and I touch on some of this research in the book. But it's also very, very practical. Is we know, for example, that if you go out with a friend of yours and you go on and on and on about your father in law, what tends to happen is you might come back and feel really lovely about your friend. You know, she gets me, she understands me. But your behavior towards your father in law becomes worse.

Moving to the point of doing anything about the situation.

That's where things like meta meditation must make sense. For just by sending love and compassion, it somehow changes how we may act in the moment with certain challenging people. One thing that I find so interesting throughout the book is that your definition of emotional agility is quite closely, if not directly tied to this fundamental human need to make progress toward meaningful goals. And you talk about how a sense of goals and values are so important and that even when you were describing the definition, that its emotional agility is connected to continuing to take steps toward those goals. Wondering if you can say a little more about that. And how do we remain emotionally agile when we're in between big, meaningful goals.

Or we just don't know how to figure them out, which is. A lot of people who read Vivid are in that position.

Yes. So this is critical. Yeah. I mean, one aspect in emotional agility. I talk about emotional agility as having four parts. The first is about showing up to emotions in the way that we described earlier. I talk about practical strategies, about how you can step out of difficult experiences so that you can get this compassionate observer view that gives yourself space to make effective choices. But all of that is not sufficient to being emotionally agile, because we need to be emotionally agile in the real world. And that's a real world that is often a complex world where things are going on around us, where we may not have a say in it, where there's a lot of change going on. And so the two final parts of emotional agility are, firstly, what I call walking your why? And then secondly of those parts, moving on. So the reason that I talk about this is because.

Values are often seen as being these abstract qualities, cheesy, squishy things that are on walls in businesses but that no one really holds to. But what's really fascinating is, we know as an example, imagine you are trying to make health change. You've got a goal around health. And so you're trying to lose weight. And you are on an airplane now, your seat partner, who you may not even know, buys candy. Your chance of buying Candy goes up 30%. This is called social contagion. We all experience this. Everyone in the workplace is stressed, and we get stressed. Everyone is looking at their cell phones in an elevator. We take out our cell phone. And what we know is that individuals are very subject to social contagion. And what this can mean is that it can often be, Especially when one is feeling in between goals or in between careers, it can be very easy to look around and see what other people are doing and then to assume that we should be doing the same. So we become subject to social contagion. And then three years later or four years later, you look around and you go, I don't know what possessed me to apply for that job or I don't know what possessed me to become a consultant, because it just was the wrong thing for me. So a really important part of emotional agility is this idea that just like a gymnast who needs to respond and react effectively to the environment around him or her, that person needs to have a strong inner core. And the inner core is the core of values, of knowing the heartbeat of your own why, of knowing who you are and what's important to you and what you stand for, because that enables you to make moves that are towards your values. So even, for example, someone who is in a career space that is a gray space, you know, what is my next move is able to start learning from. And I talk about this very practically in the book. I talk about making tiny tweaks in your habits and in your career, for example, but in many other aspects of life. So that person who's in that in between space is still able to say, what is really important to me is learning. So how can I bring that value of learning to even this current job that I might feel stuck in right now, where I'm in this in between space? What are active moves that I could make that are towards that value of learning? Where I've become cynical over time and I've started to shut down and I'm not putting my hand up, how could I bring myself closer towards that value of learning? So this whole idea of both values and then really importantly, continuing to move in the direction of those values is fundamental to our ability to adapt and thrive in all aspects of how we love and live in the world.

Thank you so much, Susan. I love your approach to all of this and how much research you've done. And you're just such a wealth of knowledge. I want to end with a quote from the book that another one that really jumped out at me. You say, to stay truly alive, we need to choose courage over comfort so that we keep growing, climbing and challenging ourselves. And that means not getting stuck thinking we found heaven when we're simply sitting on the nearest plateau. But according to the teeter totter principle, we also don't want to be overwhelmed by taking on unrealistic goals or by thinking we can get to our personal mountaintop in one sudden burst of effort. And I love how then you talk about the key is being challenged but not overwhelmed, simply whelmed. And that a key part of being whelmed lies in being selective and choosing what I call soul goals, but goals that are aligned with our deepest values. So, Susan, thank you again so much for writing such a wonderful book and sharing all of your thoughts. Where can people find you and resources on emotional agility if they want to keep in touch.

Absolutely. So thank you so much. I love this conversation. I've got a couple of resources, so the first is on my website, which is susandavid.com Lots of articles there, both on raising emotionally agile children, articles for Harvard Business Review, New York Times, there's a lot of resources that are on there. The book itself, of course. And then another resource that a lot of listeners would likely find useful is I've got a free quiz that takes about five minutes to complete and it asks some very simple questions about how you deal with your inner experience, values and goals and so on. It's a five minute quiz and people get a free 10 page report from that. So we've had about 50,000 people take it so far and that can be found again on my website. But the direct URL is susandavit.com learn L E A R N susandavit.com learn Fantastic Susan.

Thank you so much and big thanks everybody for listening.

Thank you.

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