65: Master Public Speaking and Performance with Michael Port

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What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next.

From this episode. Visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello everybody. Welcome back to the Pivot Podcast. I am thrilled to have Michael Port as our guest today. Michael has written six books, including Book Yourself Solid and his latest, Steal the Show, which according to the former president of Starbucks, might be the most unique and practical book ever written on the topic of public speaking. Michael was once a professional actor, received his MFA from NYU's Graduate Acting Program, and he guest starred on shows like Sex and the City, Law and Order, and in films such as the Pelican Brief and Down to Earth. These days he's seen on msnbc, cnbc, PBS as an on air expert in communication and business development and he's the host of his awesome Steal the Show podcast on public speaking and performance. Michael, welcome to the show.

Thank you.

I looked up this morning when I bought your book Book Yourself Solid on Amazon and it was December 2010 and I know I told you this in email and got to tell you in person, but your book. I wrote 15 pages of notes on the exercises from Book Yourself Solid in my notebook on a cross country flight sometime in that month of December or January and then I ended up leaving Google in March just a couple months later. So yours was one of the seminal, pivotal, if you will, books that helped me make this transition. So first, thank you so much.

Oh that's so great to hear. I love that. By the way, have I ever mentioned that you have a fantastic voice?

No, but thank you so much.

A great voice. Very smooth and gentle and sweet at the same time.

Wow. Thank you so much. That's the highest compliment coming from you and likewise awesome. So I'm curious about your Pivot from acting into business. That's a big one. Can you share kind of what got you from A to B?

Yeah So I wasn't an. I was, I wasn't a business person, but I did play one on tv. So I figured, well, maybe that would give me enough experience to go out and try to convince someone to let me work for them. But I was pretty nervous, obviously. I really, you know, I went to college at Tulane. I studied psychology and theater and I went to the NYU grad acting program for three years and I got a master's in acting. And then I worked as an actor and did a lot of voiceovers too. So what did I have? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. And interestingly enough, just today someone wrote into the help desk to ask me a question. She said, you know, I'm a Red Steele the show and I'm a fan of the podcast and I'm a fourth year medical school student and I'm applying now for my residency training and I have some real weaknesses on my resume. What should I do? And I'm not a job.

Expert in any way, shape or form and certainly not a resume writer. But it reminded me of when I went and interviewed for my first job opportunity, when I was trying to make that pivot and I had no experience. I wanted to be the group exercise manager for the Sports Club LA at Rockefeller center in New York City. Now, Sports Club LA was owned at the time by the Sports Club Company. And now all the sports clay ballets have been purchased by Equinox, so it's a different company. However, I taught spinning. I did that, and that's the only reason I knew that this position was available. And when I went to the woman who had the position and knew she was leaving and asked if she could get me an interview, she paused and tried graciously to say.

Well, you. Huh, that's about all that came out of her mouth. She goes, I thought you were an actor. I said, well, I am, but I'm thinking about leaving and I'm looking for other opportunities. She said, do you know anything about being a group exercise manager? I said, no, but I teach a really good spinning class. And she goes, well, that's true. And I said, listen, just give me the opportunity to get in there for the first interview and I promise I will not make a fool of you. And I convinced her to do that. And when I went in for the interview, I was being interviewed by the director of group exercise for the whole company. It was a pretty big company, it's a public company. And she had the same question. She said, what do you know about this? I said, honestly, I know what I've seen And I've been doing my research, and I will do more research than anybody you've ever had come into this position will do if. If you give me this job. But here's what I do know. And I took all of the things that I had done as an actor, and I found a way to relate some of them to what I thought would be required in the job to demonstrate that there were transferable skills from acting into this position in group exercise. And I also said, listen, I think that I can be an advantage because I don't know the way you typically do things. And I think that could serve you very well because I will not be constrained by processes or systems or ways of being that people may do just because they've always done. That's why I made my case. I also told her that I think typically when you hire for this position, and this was really bold to say, I think you hire the wrong people. She said, what? I said, I think you hire for the position of manager the best fitness instructors. And the best fitness instructors aren't necessarily managers. And so what happens is they come in and they have trouble with the organization, they have trouble with the scheduling, they have trouble with the payroll, they have trouble with human resource hiring issues, et cetera, because it's not what they are naturally good at, and it's not really what they want to do. They're diva teachers. They should be teaching. And she said, you know, I think you may have a point. I'll give you a shot, but you have to interview for the senior vice president of the company. That's the final interview. I said, great. She goes here and she took out a big binder. It was about 6 inches thick. And she gave it to me, and it was the employee handbook for the company. And she said, normally, I wouldn't give somebody this, but I'm going to give this to you because you don't come from the industry. I want you to look at this because I think it might help you with your next interview. I said, why are you doing this for me? She said, well, I do think you're going to do a great job. And I'm leaving. These are my last three weeks.

And I want this particular department to continue to grow and evolve. And I think if I take a chance on you, it may. But if I hire the kind of person that we always hired, I think it'll stay just where it is. And if you don't work out, I. I won't be here. So it won't be too bad for Me. I said, thanks. So I went home, I took that, you know, that big binder, and I memorized as much as it is, as much of it as I could. So when I went into that next interview, I was really well prepared. And I made that same case again. And five weeks later, they called me up and they offered me the job. And I couldn't remember who they were because it had been five weeks. I'd already been off to other things. I thought they had completely forgot about me by that time. And when she reminded me who they were and she offered me the job, I said, well, I have to think about it. And she said, what do you mean, you have to think about it? I said, well, I've been pursuing other things. I got some other things on the table. And she said, this is a really big deal, getting this job. And I said, no, absolutely. So they had this whole sort of perspective around the job that it was some honor to get it. And I thought, well, I'll appreciate getting it, and I will work really hard, but they're just as lucky as I am to get as I am getting the job. They're just as lucky to have me. And that was the perspective that I took, even though I didn't have the experience. And three weeks after I got there, I was offered another job as a promotion because in three weeks, I was able to clean up the messes that were there. It was pretty straightforward. It wasn't that complicated. And they offered me the same position at another club. So I had two clubs, and they offered me $5,000 more. That's it, $5,000? I said, wait, you're. You're offering me another position? That's a promotion to do twice as much work. So instead of one club, two clubs, but you only want to give me $5,000? They said, yes, it's an honor to get multiple clubs. I said, I appreciate that, but I'm not in this for the medals, you know, this is a job, and I want to be compensated properly. So I said, here's what I'll do. We'll set very specific goals, and we'll agree to those goals. And if I accomplish those goals in three months, you double my current salary. And if I don't accomplish those goals in three months, I'll take the $5,000. And I heard a little snicker on the other end. And she said, the general manager of that other club, she said, okay, sure. That's great. No problem. And I swear she couldn't contain her laughter. She just didn't think there was any way I was going to be able to hit those goals. And of course, three months later, hit the goal, sat down in her office. I said, all right, so we gotta write up my new comp plan. She goes, what do you mean? I said, well, we had a deal. She goes, huh? And her assistant looked over at her and went, yeah, you promised him double. She was like, oh, I don't have the budget for that. I don't know how to find that. So we had to under the radar, rework her budget to get me them. I mean, it was a. It was a silly corporate thing. And the reason I add that part onto the story is because I was willing to take risks. I was willing to make bold statements and do everything in my power to back them up. And if I. If I hadn't done that, if I hadn't gone out of my way to. To challenge some of their ideas on this particular position, if I try to fit myself into what they had typically done in their hiring or the kind of person they had typically hired, I don't think I would have got it. But I made a case. I pushed farther.

Around how I am different, and that's what's going to make this work. And they took a chance and it did. And so I don't think, you know, if I'd watered that down or if I tried to hide any of the things that I didn't have, I don't think it would have worked. I think it was the fact that I just went right forward and then, and that helped me make that pivot.

How did you have the confidence to position yourself so strongly and then those three months in, say, oh, I'm going to double the revenue. I mean, how did you know that about yourself, given that this was such a different type of industry?

Well, a couple of. Couple of things added to this. A little bit of acting and a little bit of confidence. Just sort of a natural confidence I felt. First of all, when I went in there, I. I was able to use my acting skills. That's number one. So what does an actor know how to do? An actor knows how to develop a character. Now, when you think about actors, sometimes you think that, well, maybe an actor's phony, because an actor does make believe. They pretend all the time. But the best actors in the world are the most authentic performers. The reason that you resonate with their work is because they're telling the truth in their performances. They're not pretending to cry. They're not pretending to get angry. They are Feeling what you are experiencing and as a result you feel the same thing. And I can take those same skills and apply them to real life. So an actor knows how to choose an objective and all the different tactics they're going to use to go after that objective. That's what an actor does when they look at a script. And, and when you are watching that actor, you're compelled by that actor because they're trying so many different things to achieve the objective that that character wants. Often the writer puts hurdles, roadblocks in the way. That's what creates conflict and makes it even more interesting to watch. And of course, that conflict produces even more action, which produces more conflict, which produces more action. And that's very interesting. So I'm not trying to produce conflict in that interview situation, of course, but there are lots of conflicts or roadblocks that I need to overcome. And I've got to try lots of different things to, you know, to overcome them. An actor knows how to control their body and their breathing, how to be calm in high stakes situations. They know how to use their body to influence the way other people think. And that's not manipulation in a negative way. I mean, you can use manipulation negatively, of course, to con people, but if you're honest and sincere, then using your body in such a way that it demonstrates confidence.

And connects with people.

Meaningfully, well, then that's a great skill to have. So I used some of those skills. But then also when I looked at what was required, it did not seem beyond my capabilities. And I was honest about that. You know, I wouldn't have been able to do this if the job was as a chemist. That would have been. I would not have had the capability even if, you know, in this job I hadn't done the things that they wanted done. But they weren't that complicated. I couldn't go in and try to convince them to give me a job as a chemist just because I feel that I could figure it out. I would not have had anything to go on there, no way. But this. I felt I could do these things and I would give all of my effort, my resources, everything I had to doing it. So that was part of it. It wasn't something that was so beyond my scope that I was pretending that I could do it. I really felt like I could do these things.

And I felt capable enough to make those kinds of claims. And if I didn't hit those goals in three months, so they still got what they want, they got me managing that department. But when I asked them what would the three goals be that would blow you out of the water? That would be the things that you do not expect could be possible. Those are the three goals I want to lay out here. And I'll decide if I think I could do that and if I can, then I'll make this deal. If not, you know I won't, but if I can, I'll say yes. And if I am not able to hit the goals, then guess what, you get me doing a great job for the $5,000. I didn't hit those goals. But you didn't even think those were possible, so no problem. But if I do hit those goals, then you'll be happy to pay me this kind of money. So I think those two things, the acting skills and the capability or the feeling that I could actually do what was required in that situation.

Yeah, I love the idea of smart risks that are grounded in reality, that you took an honest assessment. And it seems like the next pivot that really catapulted you onto a national stage was your first book. Book yourself solid. And I'm curious going from now, okay, you pivoted out of acting or maybe you were still doing that part time, but into managing at the health club. Then take me to the moment. Oh, sorry, go ahead. But yeah, the moment of book yourself solid.

Well, there was a number of pivots before that. Certainly I was then in when I was in the fitness industry. Then I was promoted three months after I hit those three month goals to take over for the woman that had left, the one who had hired me. So I was the director of group exercise for the whole company. And now I was all of a sudden training other people. And I'd only been there six months and three weeks at that point. So when I got to that position, I stayed for a little while longer. But then I was offered the opportunity to build another club, get a little bit of equity in that business and run it, the whole thing, rather than just the department. And it was a great opportunity. So I took it. But. But I didn't want to stay there forever. So I just knew I didn't want to stay in the industry. So the woman who.

Started it, her husband had also started a vertically integrated film, television and production company. And she said, listen, go meet my husband, Chip. Maybe if you come and build this for me at the 12 month period, then you'll go work for him in his film company. What do you think about that? I said, that sounds great. I'd love to get back into entertainment. So I did and that's what happened. And I moved over there and I became the vice president for alternative programming. I didn't know what that was. I had no idea what that was. That's what he told me I was going to do. And I was supposed to come up with programming for the art house theaters that we owned throughout the country. I'd never done that before.

I had to figure it out. And he gave me the shot. He gave me the opportunity to do that. So there was another pivot. And a year after that is when I decided to go out on my own. I just do a little bit better in the driver's seat than in the backseat. So it was about three years before Book Yourself Solid came out. So I had to make the pivot from working in this organization to being a consultant or a coach. And that was a pretty big pivot. Cause I thought, oh, I'll just rely on my charm and my natural ability to give advice and people will come and hire me. And that did not happen, not at the beginning. I mean, I got a few clients, but it was pretty scary. It was not at all what I expected. I got a $30,000 bonus when I left Madstone, and then I had a little bit of money saved up, but I was living in New York City. My rent was $3,000 a month. I mean, you live in the city, don't you? You know what it's like.

That doesn't buy you much. I mean, maybe.

That money was gone.

In this case, it's a studio, which is practically a micro apartment.

Yeah, exactly, right. You're like one of those tiny house people, you know.

Exactly.

Apartment, studio in the city. So in any event, there's a number of different pivots there, but Book Yourself Solid was a big one when I wrote that book because I did not see myself as a writer. You could barely get me to write five paragraphs in high school. I did not see myself as a writer. I'm dyslexic, which I always thought was a disadvantage when I was younger. Turns out for me, it actually is an advantage in many ways.

When I was working as a coach and a consultant, I was starting to do better. And I got, I got booked up. You know, that next level, you know, is, is, is a, is a big step. And I was looking around at the industry, so. Well, how do you get to the big time here? I mean, I've got clients, but what's the big time about? And I looked at all the, all the well known consultants and they all had books So I said, well, I guess I got to write a book. And in 2005, I figured out how to write a book proposal. I got some help on it. Then I found found a woman who was a former yoga student of my ex wife who was an agent for fiction. And I called her up and I said, listen, I wrote this proposal. We give me some feedback on it. I know you don't do these kind of books. She said, sure. Then she said after she read it, hey, I'd like to represent you. I said, but you don't even do these books. She goes, I know, but I think I can sell it. Give me six months. If I can't sell it in six months, then I'll release you and you can go find somebody else to rep you. And we sold it in two weeks. And let me be really clear. None of this was like, I think there's a lot of luck involved in these things.

I am not smarter or more special than anybody else, but I definitely am willing to ask for help. I'm definitely willing to to go out and make big promises and do what I can to fulfill them. And the more you make commitments and fulfill commitments, the better your reputation is. So when you get known as someone who makes commitments and fulfills commitments, then you A, feel proud of yourself, B feel capable because you have a track record of doing the things that you say you're going to do, and C, have a phenomenal reputation because people know you as somebody who is going to come through on the things that you say you're going to do.

I also love the way that you flip what someone might call a weakness into a strength. And I'm really fascinated by the dyslexia comment you said. In some ways that has actually helped you. Someone looking at how many books you've sold and you're the author of six of them might be flabbergasted by that. So I would love to hear how that's been an advantage.

Oh, sure. Well, what's my job as an author? My job as an author is to help my reader readers consume the material in my books and then act on it. That's my job. And.

People who are dyslexic often have trouble with the way that information is presented to them because the way their brain works is not the same as the average person. When I say average, I don't mean below exceptional. I just mean someone who is not dyslexic. And so what someone who's dyslexic has to do is to reorganize the information that they see out there in a way that they can consume it so that it is better organized for their brain. Now, it just so happens that the way that I'm able to organize information, not only is it easier for me to consume, it turns out it's easier for other people to consume as well. So the. There was a study done by the Kaufman foundation, which of course is an organization that studies entrepreneurship. And they found that a disproportionately large number, a disproportionate number of entrepreneurs were dyslexic as compared to the general population. So more entrepreneurs dyslexic than in the general population. And they thought there were a few reasons why. Number one, they tend to be good verbal communicators because they need to develop communication skills when they're young, but they don't feel great writing, so they're good at communicating. Number two.

They tend not to fit well in the corporate environment because they don't generally fit well in other people's structures. Number three, they're good at organizing information in a way that it is actually easier to consume for themselves. And number four, and I think this is really interesting, they are very good at getting other people to do their work for them, which I thought was funny, because when I look back, that's so true. I can't write notes while I'm listening to somebody teach. So if the teacher is introducing ideas that I've never heard before, it's very hard for me to write notes because by the time I've written something down, they're already on to the next idea. So I'm missing what's coming. And I didn't get everything of what just came before that. So in order for me to consume it, I'd have to sit and just listen. But of course, I would need those notes as well, because I couldn't process everything that was coming in. So I'd have to get other people to give me their notes. So I had to become somebody that other people would be willing to give notes to, not just the schlub sitting in the back of the room who doesn't want to do anything. And, you know, often I think a question that's worth asking is, how do we become somebody that others want to help?

That's a great one. What are your thoughts?

Well, I think there's a lot of different ways to do that, and I would love to discuss it. And I just want to make one more comment about the dyslexia thing. When people read My books and book yourself solid or steal the show. They often say, you know, I've heard a number of those ideas before, but the way that you organize them made so much more sense to me. And I see the context of how they all fit together.

So that I think is from the dyslexia. And I really appreciate that I have that now. I'm still slower when I write my books than most people. I try to write the way that I speak. I need a lot of copy editing and a lot of proofing. I can't see a typo if it's blinking red and punching me in the face. I don't see it. I mean, I'll make a typo in my own name, Michael. And I don't see it. So there's that. But yeah. So how do we become a person that others want to help? Well, we need to think about what's important to them first and foremost.

Because if we want people to say yes to us, there are generally three questions that we need them to give us a yes on. When we pitch an idea to somebody, the first thing that they usually consider is whether or not it's going to work. Does it make sense?

And if the answer is no, this thing does not make sense, I don't know what they're talking about, then that's it. They don't consider it any further. If. If they say, yeah, I think that makes sense. Yeah, that could really work. In fact, that could be successful. It's still not enough for them to say yes to you. They say yes to that. The idea may be successful. So the second question they ask is, well, is it worth my time? Is it worth my resources? Is it relevant to me? Because there may be an idea that you pitch that I say, well, that sounds pretty good, Jenny. I really like the idea of that, but it's not really relevant to me. It's not worth my resources because that's not what I'm interested in or what I do. But for somebody else, it might be really relevant. But if the answer is yes, I think that is worth my resources. So it sounds like it's going to work. Sounds successful. That's worth my resources. The next question they ask is, well, can you.

Follow through on it? Can you do your part? And if the answer is, I don't know if they can, then you don't get a yes to the whole thing. You got a yes on the first two questions, but not the third. But if the answer is yeah, I think they could do it. You know why? Because They've demonstrated that they are somebody who does what they say they're going to do. I think they could do it. I think they have the skills to do it. I think they have the natural talent, whatever it is that they're looking for. And then you get a yes. So a, can you be somebody that makes sense to the rest of the world? It doesn't seem like you're living on a different planet, that you're down to earth, that you're sensible, but you're willing to try big things.

Can you make your ideas and your work relevant to other people? Can you make yourself relevant to other people so that you are worth their time? So that when you are in the room, the room is a better place to be in because you're there.

And are you then the person that follows through that when you say, hey, we're going to go to lunch, then you go and go to lunch. You don't disappear for nine months and then call up and say, hey, can you do this thing for me? And then I think you can be the kind of person that others want to help. I mean, we all know folks who, God bless them, they seem to ask for more than everybody else in the room, but not in a way that is impressive, in a way that's like, really, Again, you know, everybody else is good with this, but you want more than everybody else. Or the person that you know likes to find the things that are problematic or wrong all the time rather than, hey, here's what's right and here's what's great. Here's what we can do, you know, the devil's advocate. I don't to want. I don't really want the devil in the room with me.

So we get a sense of what kind of people are appealing to us, meaning what kind of personalities we like having in the room. And so we should probably ask ourselves, do people think the room is a better place when we're in it, or would they rather not have us in it if they had the choice?

I call that being a clean, burning fire that be passionate, but be clean with the burning. Don't have this dark cloud that envelops the room or follows you wherever you go. You have a boat. So it's like, what's the wake that you're leaving behind? Is it positive? Or.

I'll tell you, turbulent leaves a pretty big wake. And you'll see when you come out this summer.

I know, I can't wait.

I love that you used the analogy, and I love that you used it. First, because I use both boating analogies at nauseam. All my students are so sick of my boating analogies because I love the water. And it's interesting, though, because that you brought up the wake of a boat. The captain of the boat is responsible for his or her wake. So if I'm in a no wake zone.

And it says 6 miles per hour or 6 knots. Well, if I'm going 6 knots.

And I make a wake, even if it's a slight wake, a little wake, and I knock someone off their paddle board and they hit their head on a rock, I am responsible. I can't say, yeah, but I was going 6 knots. The sign said 6 knots. Doesn't work that way. And in maritime law, I'm responsible for my wake no matter what. And I think that is a great analogy, or maybe it's a metaphor for life. We're responsible for the destruction that we cause, and often we don't even realize we're causing it. But it's very easy to place.

Blame or judgment on others as a general way of being. Well, it's not my fault they were offended by what I had to say. I mean, not my fault. I said, all blonde women are stupid. You know, like, you know what I'm saying? My wife's blonde, and she's smarter than.

I am and wonderful. Yes.

Yeah. And seriously, I like, even, like, the most basic math questions I have to ask her.

It's just.

It's just sad. Which.

One of my favorite things about Amy, P.S. for everyone listening, is in her wedding vows. She wrote her vows. She said, and I promise I'll help you make sales calls.

She's hilarious. Even at the altar, it was just such a great moment. I don't know that that's ever been in a wedding vow before, but you two did it.

Is that funny or what?

Yes.

And we didn't share our vows with each other beforehand, so they were surprises to each other.

That's amazing. So amazing. Michael, let's shift gears for a moment and talk about steal the show. One of the main points of your book and your work is that everything is a performance. And yet I think some people, without having dug into it further, would bristle at that and say, what do you mean? I want to be authentic. Tell me more about this idea that everything's a performance.

Yeah, I try to stay away from the word everything necessarily, because all generalities are false, including that one. You know, it's an absolute. So generally, I will recommend that speakers or anybody that's trying to get people to say yes to something, use words that open up their statements instead of close them down. So for example, I might say instead of, well, everything is a performance, I might say many of the highest stakes situations in your life have performance elements. Or I might say people will often say, well, everybody thinks this or everybody does this, but it's not really true. So if I said nobody likes earwax flavored ice cream.

You might sit there and think, well, there was a guy in my second grade class named Fritz. He used to pick his ears and eat it. He was weird. I bet he'd like earwax flavored ice cream. And so my point, which of course is ridiculous, that nobody would like earwax flavored ice cream, because who wouldn't love earwax flavored ice cream? But the point is that you can find an out. And when I'm trying to get you to think differently or say yes to something, it may be confronting to you, even if it's something that you want to do. You know, if I'm giving a speech about performance and thinking of yourself as a performer and connecting with the idea of performance, if I am absolute about it, it gives you no room. But if I say, you know, you can think of yourself as a performer, you have the opportunity to look at life as performance, you know, it just makes it. There's a little more opening there. Instead of everybody does this, it's always this way. You can say, often people will do this. It seems like that many times this happens. So you. Then you can't use the excuse of, well, no, that's not true. To get out of thinking about what I had to say. That makes sense.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it's the message. And you're right, I probably mis paraphrased it. But via this idea that even a job interview or a deal closing pitch, that it's not just keynote speeches from the stage where people can employ tactics from acting like you just shared.

Absolutely.

Take them or leave them as they will, of course.

Well, you gave me such a great example to bring up that point, so I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah. And that. And I do think this is the case. I think that many aspects of life include performance elements and actors are trained in how to be great performers. And I think there's a lot we can learn from actors about how to be better performers. In the high stakes situations of our regular lives. People will often think that actors are phony or fake. And some may be, certainly, but the greatest performers in the world, when they're Performing are the most authentic performers. Meaning when Meryl Streep is crying, she's breaking down because something has happened in the movie that she's in. You connect so deeply with her because it's real for her. Now, she doesn't think that she's in 1920 Russia. She thinks, I know who I am, I'm Meryl Streep and I'm playing this part. But she uses her real life, her real emotions, and she brings it into that character. And as a result, you feel what she's feeling.

And that's performance at its best. When performance is not fake behavior, it's really authentic behavior in a manufactured environment. That's what my thesis is. That's the core of my thesis, is that performance is authentic behavior in a manufactured environment. So when you're giving a speech, that's a very manufactured environment. You're on a stage, there's people in the audience, there's lights on you and they're sitting in the dark. It's very manufactured. When you're going in for a job interview, that's very manufactured. You're there and you're being judged and put in the hot seat. And you're being interviewed by a number of people and they're hitting you with questions. And it's an intense situation. When you go in to pitch your idea to a startup company, I mean, to a venture capital firm, when you want to start this company, well, that's a high stakes situation.

If you understand some of the principles that an actor adheres to and you develop some of the skills that an actor can apply, then you can feel much more comfortable in those type of situations. I mean, even the first time you go to dinner to meet your future in laws is a type of performance. You're on your best behavior. They're on their best behavior.

That's what I was going to ask. Like even the example of going on a date, people would say, be yourself.

When you're making love. It's a type of performance moments. You're thinking about, what can I do in this situation to create the mood to make this really exciting for my partner, to make my partner feel fantastic? Those are all choices. And when you make choices that are designed to affect other people, you're performing. So.

This question of being yourself and authenticity is really hot right now. I'm not in the middle of the debate necessarily, fortunately, but just this past week, Adam Grant wrote an article in the New York Times about not being yourself. Why that's a bad idea for many people. Did you Read the article by any chance?

I did actually, yeah. It was great.

So I raised.

And I'll put it in the show notes too.

Okay, good. Put it in the show notes. And you know what he was saying is that.

What he was saying is similar to some of the points that I made in steal the show around.

Being a high self monitor versus a low self monitor. Someone who is a high self monitor understands how they fit into different situations, can control their behavior, can choose different ways of being depending on the scenario that they're in and the people that they're with. And they're a little bit more flexible and they tend to move up higher in the world of business. In this particular case is what he was referencing.

And he was making a distinction between authenticity and sincerity. So instead of thinking about being authentic, think about being sincere. Because look, if you're always authentic.

You might say, listen, I gotta tell you, I don't know what the heck you did with your hair, but you look like an idiot.

And I like earwax ice cream.

Yeah.

You would say things you shouldn't say. And that's something we do all the time. We filter ourselves. That's a type of performance. It's a type of you're making choices because you want, want other people to think something or to feel something or to do something. We do this all day long. And Brene Brown, and he referenced Brene Brown in something that she had said. And Brene Brown wrote a response to his article and she was not happy with his article or the way that he referenced her work or his overall premise. And you can link to that article as well because it's very interesting. And Brene and Adam are both incredible thinkers, incredibly generous people and some of the kindest people that you'll find in this industry. And it was interesting to see a little dust up there. I found they were actually, I thought they were more aligned than not, but I just think semantics got in the way. And maybe Adam's article wasn't edited as cleanly as it could be, or maybe he had to cut some because he only had a certain amount of words he could use.

But it was very interesting and it's a worthwhile conversation to have. I don't think it's a debate because it's just semantics. And ultimately what Brene, I think was saying is that we don't want to live in a world where you need to change who you are to be what you want. And I don't think Adam was saying that at all. And I think Adam would agree with her. I can't speak for Adam. I know I agree with her. And at the same time, if we're so true to self that we cannot get out of our own way, for example, if you're so true to yourself about politics, say you're so married to your particular perspective that you can't be in a meeting in the office and. And not say something about it, that's problematic. You're so true to your worldview that you do not let anybody else's opinion into your mind or your head, then that, I think is a problem. So for me, authenticity, sincerity, role playing. Because we play different roles all the time. You play one role with your spouse. You play one role with your friends from college. You play another role with your kids. You play another role with your colleagues. They're all different roles, but they are sincere representation of different parts of our personality. And we will change the roles we're playing depending on the situation. So Herb Brooks was the Coach of the 1980 U.S. men's Olympic Hockey team. And at that time, they used college players. Now, now they use professionals. But at that time, they used College players. The U.S. olympic hockey team was not expected to do that much. And in fact, the Russians were such a dominant force. They hadn't lost a game, I think, in 11 years. And they were pretty big. I think they were using professionals and shooting them up with a lot of substances that made them bigger. And so they were just such a dominant force. Nobody thought the US could do much. And Herb Brooks was a college coach before he was the Olympic coach. And he was known as a nice guy in college. You know, he was affable, had good relationships with his students, his kids, you know, his players. But then when he coached the men's Olympic team, he played a different role entirely. He became a drill sergeant. He was relentless. He was not their friend. And they did not appreciate him at the beginning. In fact, they did not like him. He became the antagonist. Why did he do this? Two reasons. Number one, because he needed them to work harder than they even thought they could possibly work if they wanted to skate with the Russians. Because the Russians were bigger, stronger, faster, and better and more confident. So they had to be better conditioned than the Russians to be able to keep up with the Russians. Number two, the players on the team, when they came on the team, a lot of them were in conflict with each other because they came from different schools. They were competitors at those schools. They had a lot of rivalries. Minnesota versus Boston, big rivalries. And so he Figured, well, if they hate me more than they hate each other, they'll bond together, they'll give up their rivalries, and. And I'll be the antagonist. And it worked. And guess what? They beat the Russians and they won the Olympic gold medal in hockey. They made a movie based on it called Miracle, which I've watched five times. I think I love it. So he played a different role, and he was comfortable playing that. I don't know if he was comfortable or uncomfortable playing it, frankly, but I do know that he was willing to do it even if he was uncomfortable, because he thought that the. That role would help produce the outcome they all wanted. When I need to play the role of a parent who is disciplining one of my children, I am often uncomfortable because I don't want to make my child feel bad or I don't want him to get upset or cry or feel like he's not getting what he wants, et cetera. All these things that. And children are very good at manipulating their parents. They're just brilliant at it. I mean, we never did such a thing. Of course.

Of course not.

No. But children today, they are.

But I have to play the role. I have to stay in character. There are times even when your kid throws a fit and you want to crack up because sometimes it's actually funny, but you can't because that would be inappropriate for that situation. You'd actually make them feel worse. So we play a role and we stay in that character because we are trying to produce a particular result and we think that role is going to help us. So that's being a chameleon. And a chameleon often gets a bad rap. You know, you call someone a chameleon, it means they're a shape shifter or something. But a chameleon is the most authentic creature when it's green. When it's on a red leaf, it's red. And when it's on a green leaf, it's green. It's not pretending to be green or red. It actually is green and it is red. They're all true parts of the character of that particular animal.

That's so true. It's so true. So we just have a couple minutes left. And there's one thing from Steal the Show that I'm dying to ask you about, because I think listeners will want to know. Can you give us the super Sneak Preview short version of the Mastering the Elements of Effective Rehearsal? Because I think so many people get nervous for big presentations or speeches or even wedding toasts. And I would Love to hear you have such an amazing acting background. What your best tips are for rehearsing.

So rehearsal is something that people often push back on when we suggest they do more of it because we think they need more than they think they need. And then more than that and even more than that. And probably even more than that. When you go watch a Broadway show, that's not the first night that they have uttered those words. They're not winging it.

And when you're giving a high stakes speech or presentation of any kind, you want to be as well prepared as a Broadway actor is for opening night. And that requires a lot of rehearsal. But the reason people push back often is because they've tried some rehearsal and they felt it didn't work. They felt that when they were performing they were stiff and uncomfortable and they didn't feel that they were as quick and clever as they usually are. And they were probably right. The rehearsal produced that negative result. Why? Because they did a little bit of rehearsal rather than a lot of rehearsal. When you do a little bit of rehearsal, what happens while you're giving the presentation is you're trying to recall what you did in rehearsal. And as a result, you're not in the moment with your audience. You're trying to recreate something that happened in rehearsal and you're pulling at it so you feel stiff. And it doesn't come quickly, it doesn't come organically, it doesn't come naturally. But if you've done so much rehearsal that you can actually throw away your quote unquote script, even if you stay true word for word, that you forget it before you walk on stage, that you allow it to come to you organically in the moment, well, then it'll feel to the audience like it's happening for the first time. It'll feel spontaneous and that's what the audience is looking for. But it requires that you know your material that well. And I think the amount of rehearsal you give to a person presentation should probably be proportionate to the stakes of that particular presentation. If they're really low stakes, it's not a big deal. I wouldn't spend 500 hours rehearsing it. But if it's the most important presentation that you'll give, or it's your big TED Talk in front of a couple thousand people and then it's going to be played on Ted.com for millions of people, you're probably going to want to put a fair amount of rehearsal into that.

Winging. It is something that people who are quick on Their feet like to do. And when they know their material, they can get away with it. And people say, that was really good. I liked it. But they get off stage and they go, I know I could have done better. I know there's more, but I don't know what to do. So there is a rehearsal process that you can follow. And I only know it because I was a professional actor. I learned this in graduate school. There's no reason anybody who is not an actor would know how to rehearse. I would never expect them to. It's not something you're taught in college. It's not something you're taught in medical school. You only learn this if you study it specifically, which is why I wrote about it in Steal the Show and why we teach it in all of our programming. Because it might be the most important element of performance is preparing. Because the work is done in rehearsal, not on the stage. And that's the thing that surprises people. It really is done in rehearsal. So if you front load your work, then the performance is really quite easy on the stage. Otherwise, you're trying to do it last minute. If you're trying to put together a presentation the night before you actually give the presentation, it's not going to be your best work.

And it's such an important note that someone told me many years ago, too, the people who look the the most relaxed and even funny on stage are often the ones who prepared the most, even though they come across looking the most casual. It's a weird dichotomy.

Yeah. You can even prepare for Q and A. There's different types of theater. There's stable theater and unstable theater. So stable theater are plays and musicals. There's a script, and there's scenery that's been designed and costumes that have been chosen. And every once in a while, something will be different because someone will forget a cue, drop a line, be late on an entrance. But for the most part, it's the same thing. Then there's unstable theater, which is improvisation, and street theater. Improvisation is the most unstable, but there's still a structure for it, and all the performers know what that structure is. And then street theater is made up of a series of bits. And the bits can be reorganized depending on the weather, the space that that street performer is in, the type of audience they have, the size of the audience, the age of the audience, what equipment they have with them, what the rules are, are they allowed to, you know, light their juggling pins on fire, or are they not in that space? So there's a number of different factors that will go into their choices with respect to what bits they actually perform. And Q and A is like that. Q and A is, is a series of bits. When you do a lot of Q and A, you get used to answering questions. Now, when you do podcasts, sometimes you get a lot of the same questions, and other times you have interesting hosts like yourself who ask different questions than you might normally get, and you're talking about different topics. I don't usually talk about when I left acting and went into another job. I don't think I've talked about that in years. Years.

So, yes. So Q and A is like street theater. So that when you are giving speeches, generally you get the same questions over and over again. Now, A that should probably suggest. That should probably tell you that the answers to those questions should probably go in the speech because it's something that you're leaving out that people keep asking. But nonetheless, there are still things that people will ask because even though you've made it clear in your speech, they still want more discussion around it because they'd rather not have to do it. So, for example, if you're encouraging people, new business owners, to pick a target market and they get it, you've explained it, they know they're supposed to do it, but they don't really want to, they'll ask you more questions to push back on the idea.

If you have a bit that is your answer to that, you'll give a better answer. And when I say a bit, I mean, you might say, well, look, there are three reasons the target market is so effective. Number one is this. Number two is this. Number three is this Number one. Number two, and you can then speak to those particular points rather than something that is a little bit more off the cuff in that particular environment, it's, you know, doesn't work as well. Again, I think on podcasts, you're going to have a lot more that's off the cuff. I think people like listening, listening to podcasts that are very fluid and conversational and naturalistic. But I think on stage, people want you to get to those points even quicker. And because one person is asking a question doesn't mean that the information is relevant to everyone in the room. So you're going to need to take that question and then answer it in such a way that initially it's relevant to everybody. And then if you need to direct a little bit more to that individual, you can do so quickly and concisely and then move on to the next question. But if you have a series of bits worked out. So what I'd recommend you do is Write down the 10 questions that you would normally get and then create very specific, concrete answers that you memorize to all of those. And then you can improv inside of that, and you have your prepared material. So when preparation meets improvisation, you have spontaneity.

These are such great pro tips. One of the things as you're saying this, it reminds me I want to create a stats sheet on employment statistics or things I might need to speak on when I'm doing my book tour in the fall, because I don't have a good memory for those. I only have a few in my brain, but it's not the thing that I'm best at remembering. So you're right. Those are like. Some of my little bits will be these facts that I can pull upon, but I'm gonna have to really prepare for that because it doesn't come as naturally.

That's right.

So interesting. Michael, this is all fascinating, and I have to say thank you again for your work. It's had such a huge influence on my life and business. And your books are some of the ones I recommend the most of all time in these last six years. I pretty much tell every coach I ever work with that they should start with your book. So thank you. And for one of my favorite sex nicity episodes for fans, the one Michael was in was season one, Secret Sex. And you were. Your character was dating the, like, dairy lady, the cheese lady, and you took her to the hidden Chinese restaurant. It's such a great role.

It was fun. So that episode, I won't. All right, I'll give the whole thing away.

I'm sure. Pretty sure people have probably seen it by now.

It's about the people you have sex with that you don't tell anyone else you have sex with. Now, I was in a Chinese restaurant with this woman that I'd met in a cheese shop. And I'd just broken up with a woman who was a cellist in the Philharmonic. And I was very upset and I was depressed, and this woman fed me cheese. And it was very, very exciting. So we started going out. And then Sarah Jessica Parker and Big have one of their first dates. And they, instead of going to dinner, go back to her place and they do something on the floor, which, you know, is something that grownups do. And then they were hungry, so he said, let's go get some Chinese food. So he took her to this Chinese restaurant downtown, and I'm there. So she Bumps into me, and I'm with a woman that I won't introduce. And I'm acting kind of funny.

So the next day she says, I gotta go talk to Mike. They used my name. She goes, I gotta go talk to Mike, because he was acting really funny. So we were at Bed Bath and Beyond. We're lying in the bed, and she says, what was the deal? You were really weird. And I said, listen, I gotta say, honestly.

I just. I didn't want you to meet this woman that I was with. You know, I was kind of embarrassed. She said, why? Was she your cousin? Like, what's the deal? I said, no, no, no. She's just not that attractive. I mean, the sex is great, but I just don't wanna be seen with her. And she said, well, why did you take her to the Chinese restaurant if you don't want to be seen with her? I said, oh, that's where all the guys take the women. They don't want to be seen. So she starts, yeah, she thinks Big took her there because he's hiding her. So, you know, that's what the episode becomes about, whether or not she is a secret sex woman to Big or if he's actually interested in her. So she, you know, Sarah Jessica Parker encourages me to actually, you know, go for it with this woman because I really do like her, and I do. I finally do. And then she breaks up with me because she finds someone who's not as shallow as I am.

Right. It must have been so fun to see that show skyrocket after you'd been in one of these foundational early episodes. Like, that just must have been a blast.

It was me. It was me that really made the show what it.

I think so. I think you're right.

Yeah. Have gone anywhere? No, actually, do you know the book, the character that I played in the show is based on a character in the book called Mr. Perfect. There's Mr. Big and Mr. Perfect. But, you know, because I was her friend from college who was a good job, was. I had hair then, so I was relatively attractive. And, you know, you think, why doesn't she go out with him? Like, why she go out with all these guys who are not so nice? Like, Big wasn't so nice. And so I thought I hit it. I thought I was gonna be a regular on the show. And Darren Starr said, no, no, no, you're not gonna be a regular. Because we don't want any straight men who they should be going out with to be regulars on the show, because then we would look at some of these women and say really something wrong with them? Cause why aren't they going out with these guys who they should be going out with instead of all these guys that they shouldn't be going out with? So if you notice in the show, the only two male characters that were regulars that were not their long, you know, the love interests of the stars or the female stars were two gay men. Everyone else was just were all sort of either toys of the women or long term boyfriends or husbands.

Right. Or experiments gone wrong.

That's what I meant by toys. Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So fun to be part of that. Michael, you're amazing. Thank you again. Where can people find you if they want to keep in touch with you and your work?

Michaelport.com is a great place to go. Heroicpublicspeaking.com is another great place to go. And of course, since your folks are podcast listeners, they should go to steal the show with Michael Port. And I've got, I think as of today, about 74 episodes.

That's amazing. Yes, it's such a great show. And Michael also does live heroic public speaking day long seminars which are incredible that anyone can go and workshop a speech. And I got so much out of the one you did here in New York. So thank you.

You're welcome.

All right, bye everyone. Thanks for listening.

All right, that wraps up this episode of the Pivot Podcast. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. And Pivot is officially out, so grab your copy wherever books are sold. Even better, tell a friend and leave a review on Amazon. Reviews help other readers decide whether to purchase a copy, and it helps build a lot of momentum in these early days of the launch. Thank you all so much in advance. I couldn't do this without you.

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