69: Worrier's Guide to the End of the World with Torre DeRoche

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I am so thrilled to be talking to a long time Twitter turned IRL friend Tori Daroch. Tori and I met and I just did the research this morning. Tori we first started corresponding from a tweet in 2011 I found out about your first book. It was called Love with a Chance of Drowning and actually Tori was a self publishing success story because it was first called Swept and then I remember tracking your whole journey as you then got a publisher, someone signed movie rights even though the movie didn't end up happening, it was just this Epic Journey about Torrey meeting a guy, and they sailed for two years on the open sea, even though Torrey has a deathly fear of sharks and deep water. So right from that moment, I knew that not only is Tori a badass, but, like, a transparent one, because her blog, the title, is the Fearful Adventure. So she's someone I have long admired for saying, I am so petrified of this, but I'm doing it anyway. She's been published in Lonely Planet travel writing anthologies and Internet and Innocent Abroad and True Stories from the World's best writers. Tori is such a beautiful writer, I can't even begin to tell you. She lives in Melbourne, Australia, and the subject of today's podcast is her newest book called the Warrior's Guide to the End of the World. Love, Loss, and Other Catastrophes through India, Italy, and Beyond. Tori, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Jenny.

Yeah, I should also say we were able to cross paths in person in Chiang Mai, Thailand. So that was really cool that in Tori's 10 years of nomadic adventuring and traveling, I was lucky enough to overlap with her. And I just. I'll never forget that meal at a little cafe, eating veggies and rice, talking about life and love and adventure with you. So it's been a true highl of my blogger turned IRL friend experience.

It was wonderful.

Yeah.

I have really vivid memories of it too. Just like how quickly we got into the gossip, and it was just like this really lovely, deep conversation.

Totally. And as soon as this book arrives and I knew you were working on it, I just. It's such an important one. And first of all, the notion of the Warrior's Guide to the End of the World that you say you have been a lifelong worrier, this is just in your bones. And your dad was a horror writer for film and tv, so you grew up in a household that was about horror and terror and scaring people shitless. And the book begins when your dad was passing away of cancer, and at the same time, your relationship of 10 years was ending.

I don't even know how you get out of bed when both of those things are happening at the same time. So I would love, Tori, if you could just take us back to that moment. Moment. A series of moments. But how did you start taking the first steps when all of that was going on?

I actually couldn't get out of bed. So, yeah, I mean, it really was that bad.

Yeah, because, I mean, I'd been this chronic worrier my whole life. And when you are a warrior, you've got this kind of earworm that's there all the time saying to you, what if, what if, what if? You know, these terrible things happen and you're always imagining worst case scenarios and, and I found myself in a situation where a bunch of worst case scenarios did happen and I, and I was crippled by it, you know, I just, I was absolutely ruined by it. You know, I mean, I would say that that was. It didn't get any worse. It wouldn't, couldn't get any worse for me, I don't think, just in terms of how I felt and my motivation for life and all those sorts of things. And I. So I was laying in bed for probably would have been a couple months, like just sort of, you know, not really knowing what to do. And then I started going for walks every day. In the area where I grew up, I was, I was staying with my mum. And in the area where I grew up, there's this beautiful hinterland with these huge tall trees and there's this like. It's an old trail that goes through the pines and it's just straight and flat and, you know, kind of unchallenging. And it's two hours in total to do the walk. So I would get up out of bed and I'd go and do this walk and I'd just feel nourished by being in nature and watching the birds and like looking at the trees and just those really simple things. And. And so I just started to do that and that felt like an achievement. You know, it felt like I'm doing a thing today. This is, you know, done one thing other than get up out of bed. And that felt like an accomplishment. So from there I, I just built upon that, you know, sort of spending more and more time outside and, you know, socializing more. And then I, and then I decided to book a trip to Europe.

Yet to really get out of the house. Yeah, so that's, that's the start of the, the book. The Warrior's Guide to the End of the World is really. It begins there in, in Europe where I'm sort of, you know, where I was wandering around in grief, just trying to figure out what to.

I think it's so powerful how you say that. This constant worrying that you had worried your whole life every day, wondering what are the potential disasters and how can you avoid them? And it couldn't protect you from this absolutely horrendous time in your life. And that was such a powerful, It's a powerful thing to read and be reminded of. And for you, I'M sure to experience, which is.

I can completely relate.

I was a total anxious worrier, I would say, the first 30 years of my life before I started meditating daily. Even though that's sometimes, I know, annoying for people to hear, like, just meditate and all's well. But, no, I was a complete worrier. And yet to find it to be so ineffective when life actually hits that all that worrying compounded over all those years actually couldn't protect you.

No, that's right. It doesn't do. It doesn't do anything. There's this quote from Rebecca Solnit that I have here that I love, which is worry is a way to pretend that you have knowledge or control over what you don't. And it's a pride me even. It surprises me how much we prefer ugly scenarios to the pure unknown. So it's just, you know, you've got this blank void ahead and you don't. Nobody knows what's going to happen within it. And so we just. We picture it and try to strategize and try to figure it out and try to kind of fill it in, but it's unknowable. And, you know, I mean, you can. You can forecast certain aspects of it, but you can't know it. And all that, all that kind of thinking and strategizing, it's really just a waste of time and energy.

One thing you say is that during times like this, when really tough things are going on, that I think I'll quote you, though infectiously happy optimists don't always know how to handle people who are in grief. And I love throughout the book and just I know who you are, that you say, like, sometimes that unfailing optimism is not helpful, that it's really.

It's overboard. And it's to the point of, you know, that without a sense of realism and reality and just transparency, it can be more harmful than helpful to have these optimists like, well, I'm curious what people said to you because again, of course, there's your dad who is dying of cancer, and then your relationship of 10 years that your book, Tori's memoir was about meeting this man, their travels together. And so, of course, like, as this is going on, people are reaching out to her. What's. How's it going? Tell us what's the latest and wanting that happy ending. And so I'm curious, yeah. How. What kinds of things people were saying to you that just didn't feel helpful? And we can all learn from this as we're listening.

There'S so many stories, I don't even know what, which one to tell you. There was one time where I was crying in front of a very good friend of mine. And, you know, like, I don't cry. I kind of tend to be quite stoic. So the fact that I was sitting at a kitchen table crying with kind of a big deal for me, and she, she was eating yogurt and she, she stuck her finger into her yogurt and reached out and like, put, put like yogurt on the tip of my nose to try to make me laugh. And she works with children all day. So for her that was like, I'm going to distract you out of the emotional state you're in right now. And it. But it didn't. It felt very invalidating. And I love her dearly and I don't mean to criticize her, but it was. I found. I. I guess I find with optimism where it is flawed is that it doesn't validate where somebody is at, you know, and.

Sometimes, you know, especially when you're in grief, you. You need to be in grief like that. That's a. It's perfectly healthy that you're in a very dark place where you're having to reevaluate your entire perspective on what life means. Like, you know, and, and that's going to take some, some mental filing time. So nobody should be shocking you out of it or, you know, trying to sort of give you positive sound bites or anything else like that because. Because you need to be there. And I guess it's. It's having. It's a nice gift to give to somebody in grief to just respect that they're in a process and they're not going to stay there and that it's a worthy part of life. Like, grief is rich. It's a rich time, and there's nothing wrong with somebody being in that place and you should just allow them to work through it in their own time.

A friend told me the quote recently, grief is love that has nowhere to go or love that is looking for an outlet. You know, that there are these people that you've loved and you've lost, and part of it is processing. And you also told the story that someone said to you, oh, well, at least you got a book deal out of it. That like, oh, well, everything happens for a reason. Oh, well, at least this. That it sounds like what you're saying is there's maybe a time and place for that silver lining. But if you get to that too quickly or try and justify these terrible things that have happened. It doesn't honor, as you said, the richness of the grieving process and how normal and natural that is and how necessary it is to keep moving.

And. Yeah, a lot of that sort of stuff sort of seems in poor taste in these moments. Yeah, I know it's very. It's very difficult and it's very awkward for people. So I, you know, try not to be too critical. But I suppose the thing is that.

A lot of the time saying something, giving somebody a silver lining is a way to. Or putting yogurt on somebody's nose is a way to sort of turn the moment around for yourself. So if.

If I'm sitting with you and you're in a dark place, that's going to make me feel a bit yucky and uncomfortable. So I'm going to try and cheer you up so I can feel more comfortable. So I think that truly empathizing with somebody who's in grief is just saying, is allowing space for that to exist and not sort of feeling that need to turn it around so that you can be more comfortable.

Right. And I love. Before we hit record, I asked Tori, I said, what is your advice? What do we say to someone who's going through something really tough? I loved your advice, which was just be transparent to say, I don't even know what to say right now, or I can't begin to imagine and connect with them on an authentic level. Maybe you don't have the perfect thing to say, but that's okay. Rather than trying to brush aside or like you said, change the situation. So us as the listener feels more comfortable.

That's right. Yeah. I mean, I think there's often. Whenever I feel sort of tense or awkward, when I'm trying to communicate to people in situations like that, as soon as I start, as soon as I become honest, as soon as I just confess, like, I don't actually know what to say, you know, or like I feel awkward about this because I've never had this experience before, or you just own whatever, you know, whatever's actually going on for you, then that tension goes away and then that there's a space for you to connect to somebody. So it's all the kind of formalities and those stiff, you know, all that sort of stuff that we do that we're supposed to do that tends to block connection between people. And then you don't know what to say.

Yeah. What have you now kind of a couple years out from walking through that period of grief. How has your Relationship to worry and anxiety changed on the other side.

Well, so throughout the.

Two years, really, it was that I was recovering.

I did the walking that I told you about, and that was slowly kind of learning to be mindful.

Through walking and through hiking and being in nature. And then I went on to do two walking pilgrimages, one in Italy and one in India. And.

It just brought me in really deep communion with my own body and the world around me and how that all kind of is connected. And it's quite a spiritual experience to be in nature and one that I hadn't had before. So to kind of juxtapose that grief and that loss and the darkness against the sort of impermanence and beauty of nature, it was just a really beautiful package. And it gave me a sanctuary.

You know, to sort of. Anytime I'm confronted by something or experiencing difficulties, there's this place that I can go in nature and. Or just being outdoors or walking, where I can connect to my body and I can connect to the planet and I can sort of connect to the. To the largeness of the universe and not the smallness of whatever it is I'm in.

I love how it starts with something as simple as walking. At first it was getting up, just standing vertically and walking near your house. And then it became these two epic pilgrimages in Italy and India, as you said. And I find it fascinating that for you, that was a different way of connecting with nature than the traveling you had done for 10 years, where you're on planes, trains, automobiles, in forests, sailing the blue ocean. You know, that's interesting that you felt a different or deeper sense of mindfulness in these walking pilgrimages.

Yeah, something when your body's in motion. I mean, especially for me, I think, as somebody who's worried a lot, and I've got this very overactive mind. So if I sit and try to meditate in the traditional way, my mind just runs and runs and runs, and it can be very hard to shut that down, which I know is the whole point of meditating, but it's. It was hard. Like, I'd done, you know, Vipassana retreats for 12 days, and I'd done all kinds of stuff to try to actually learn to meditate and had never successfully done it. In fact, when I'd done the Vipassana retreat, I just. I was either in hyper vigilance or I was asleep, like. And I learned I actually realized I could sleep sitting upright, which was quite bizarre.

Amazing.

Sitting there in meditation, sleeping. But yeah, so the walking, you know, Your body's in motion and you've got something to do, kind of, I guess, like your body's preoccupied. So for me, that became a vehicle for being able to just relax my mind and go into flow state and start to find that connection that I hadn't been able to find through other forms of meditation.

I love that. Speaking of flow state, there's this part in the book that I want to read out loud for everyone who's listening. The most beautiful description. One of the things I love most about you, and for those of you who haven't yet had the pleasure of reading Tori's writing, that it's just so funny and so honest and direct, but also so beautifully descriptive. So we'll read one now about Italy and an equally appropriate one about India. So this one is. Every country has its own unique smell that must come from the soil and the particular habits of the region. And that smell gets transferred into the wine as though a place has been squeezed of its essence and poured into a pitcher. The wine tasted the way the air smelled of basil and peaches and expanses of plump tomatoes, of soil that wobbled in the heat with vapors of bitter herbs and woody decay. It tasted of naps and flowers, of long country roads where sunsets painted skin with gold, of kind strangers with lyrical language and the bone tingling relief of good food settling inside famished bellies. And you say to your traveling friend Masha, you say, if we hadn't gotten lost in that storm, we never would have had this experience. And she replied, that's the magic of a pilgrimage, Deroche. Everything happens exactly as it should.

Take us to Italy. Now, looking back, even a couple years later, what did you most take away from the Italy portion of your pilgrimage?

So that was when I first met Masha. I mean, I'd met her one other time in, at a, in New York kind of networking conference very briefly. And I was in Italy and I, I had taken a photo of the water, the Mediterranean, and put it on social media. And I got this comment from this woman who I'd met at this networking conference like some time before, who I'd kind of thought I'd lost contact with. And she'd said, I'm eight minutes away from you by train right now. You know, we should have a wine. And so I got on the train and went and met with her and we had some win. And. And she said, you know, she told me at that time she was partway into walking from the UK to Rome by herself, mostly by herself, in this very, very long pilgrimage. And. And she said, you know, just. Do you want to come and join me? Like, just. You can just join me for a day. And I didn't have any gear. I didn't have, you know, a rain jacket. I had terrible street shoes. It seemed like a very bad idea, but I didn't have anything else to do. And I was kind of, you know, like, I was telling you I was finding this through walking, and I kind of wanted to just keep walking and walking. So it was, like, almost serendipitous that she was there to say, come walking with me. So I decided to join her. And because I had absolutely no preconceptions about it, it just became pure experience. And, you know, my shoes failed me pretty much within the first day. I started to get this tugging pain, and. And I pushed on through it. And three days later, I had throbbing terrible tendonitis, and I couldn't walk at all. And so we went to a hotel, and I laid in bed for five days, and she stayed with me. And I had to buy a bike just to sort of carry on the trip because of this injury.

I love the creativity of this. Like. So Tori is now riding on a bike just to get her through, like. And it came at the 11th hour because Masha was gonna go on without you, but you guys solved it and figured it out.

So, of course, you just rolled alongside her on this squeaky bike and. But, you know, so it was. It was just. It felt kind of magical in a lot of ways. Like, Italy is this place of golden sunshine and, like, fruit trees just overflowing with fruit and vineyards everywhere and, you know, cheap wine and beautiful food, and it's just. It's. This is a very nourishing place. It's. It really, you know, it's hedonistic, and it appeals to all your senses and. And to be walking through it and walking in it in a way where I just. I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know where we were going, where we were going to sleep at night, but I wasn't thinking about that.

I was just going with the experience at that point, because I had absolutely no preconceptions. And I'd found this flow state through walking where I could just let go and stop thinking about my past and stop thinking about where we were going and just instead be with that moment. So even. Even, like, how many more hours until we reach our destination? I didn't even want to know. It's just, like, I just want to keep going until until we get there. And so being kind of rooted in this very present state, and I'd never been in that place before. I'd never been that present. As somebody who had worried and worried my whole life, I had never. I'd never known what the moment was like. You know, people talk about them now and it just sounds. I don't know what.

But there I understood. I finally understood what it meant and how. And everything just came alive from that place. And, you know, just my senses and, you know, the feeling the air on my skin and the taste of food and, you know, the generosity of strangers and just the beauty of the world just started to emerge from that, you know, from out of the rubble of this, like, chronic worry that I lived in prior to that. And, yeah, Italy was the catalyst for that because it's just. It's such an easy place to be and it's so. It's just so abundant.

Yeah, that's such a beautiful. It was the perfect first location. I can't imagine you going from the depths of grief to India first, which comes later in the book. So I love the way you're describing. It was hedonistic, abundant, nourishing, generous. That. That was such a comforting landing pad, even if not always comfortable. But the environment. And I love how you describe, too, your rip The Band Aid approach to bravery that you didn't. You weren't like Masha. You didn't set out to do this epic pilgrimage across every walking site in the world. You were. Didn't even have the proper shoes with you, but you just said yes in an effort to finally, like, you were so fed up with the constant worrying. It seemed that you were probably figured like, well, what else do I have to lose?

Is. Yeah, I mean, I think, like, that's sort of a weird side effect of. Of being in this huge grief where you're like, nothing matters anymore and I don't, you know, care. It's almost like you just stop. You go into this deep apathy, I suppose, and. But then from that place, all this other opportunity opens up because you don't care where once you did. So, you know, before, I might have been very, you know, preoccupied with planning where I was going and what I was doing and, you know, where I'm. How am I going to get there? And all those kinds, sensible things. But when you're. When you've got kind of nothing, I don't want to say nothing to live for. That sounds extremely defeated. And I did have moments of feeling that way, but I wasn't like, chronically suicidal or anything, but I just. I felt absolute. An absolute sense of meaninglessness. And. But from that place, you know, this opportunity, like, just come walking with me for, like, you know, three weeks and straight is, oh, okay. I've got nothing else to do with my life, and, you know, doesn't matter. So it. It's almost like gift was born from that really dark place, and if I wasn't in that dark place, then I wouldn't have even seen that opportunity.

You describe that in the book as the paradox of suffering and euphoria, that the more you suffer, the greater the euphoria. Even though, you know, we want. Of course, we're careful not to just throw platitudes like, oh, Tori. But it's so glad. It's so good that these things happen to you. But what I'm hearing you say is that actually it did create an opportunity for you to.

Start from the void, really, to start from nothing, knowing nothing, not sure what has meaning, not sure what's meaningful to you, what you want to keep, what's. Who you are. And that this allowed you to start to feel not just yourself again, but actual moments of euphoria and presence for the first time.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that I've seen that happen to. To other people, you know, since. Who I've watched go through grief. And this is why I say, you know, when somebody's in grief, it's. It's nice to just give them the space to be in grief, because it's actually kind of a gift. It can be a gift. And I don't. I don't mean to say that everybody who goes through something terrible and awful is going to necessarily find their way through it or, like, you know, have the same experience, but I've seen it happen again and again where people do discover that paradox, you know, that now that, you know incredible pain, like psychological pain, you understand the beauty and the joy on a different level. It's like they're proportionate to each other.

One of my favorite quotes is Kahlil Gibran. I'm paraphrasing, but essentially that the deeper the sorrow carves, the more joy your cup can hold.

Mm. Yep. Yep. I think it's true.

Well, let's go now from the rolling, lush hills of Italy to this favorite passage I have about your time in India. So there was a reporter who called, and you were answering while walking.

Okay.

This is just so good. Okay, so Tori and Masha and a guy that they met, an Indian man, are going on this Dusty, dusty road. She says a truck drove past, sending up another giant plume of dirt, which swirled in the air before settling as a fine coating on the trees, on my shoes, in my lungs. Everything here was snowed on by dust particles. And I was observant enough to understand that the dust was made up of not only pollution and earth, but the fine powder of dried shit and decomposed animals. Dirt, shit, death. We couldn't escape it. The phone dropped out for a second, and then she asked, are you there? I'm here. How could I have told her over a bad phone line that my nails were so full of black gunk that I couldn't scrape it out anymore and that stuff was coming out of my nose that really shouldn't have gotten up there in the first place? How could I tell her that every day I tied my small bath towel to the outside of my backpack to dry, and when we'd stopped to rest and I'd put my bag down, it often sat in dust and poo? And how could I explain that in the evenings after my shower, I'd have to dry my body with that poo towel and then put on the same outfit I'd been wearing every evening for 12 days, my one change of clothes that I had also slept in. Clothes that smelled of all the places that we'd stayed in, like an olfactory map of our travels. Strangers, homes and rundown hotels, ashram floors and incense from temples, mothballs and curries and soaps and drywall.

Damn, girl, it just takes us right there with you. You go from this most idyllic location to what you described. Dust, shit, death, you know, of your time in India. So I know you have real thoughts on this, because of course, my first thought, similar to you or similar to many people, is, but is it safe? And come on, your dad's the horror writer. How are you walking alone, especially in a very crowded or could be dangerous for women walking alone. And I know you've written some great pieces on this, but how did you overcome those fears that on some level, yes, maybe exaggerated on others? We read about terrible things happening in the media all the time, so I would love to hear your take on that and just what your kind of key impression is now in hindsight from India and like, trekking through that dust and dirt to get where to the end of your pilgrimage there?

It's a funny thing. I mean, I think it's very difficult with adventure to know what's reckless and what's adventure, you know, and oftentimes it's whether or not you survive that determines which category you fall into. And I mean, it's like, how can you know for sure before setting out on something new that you've never done before that maybe other people, not a lot of people are doing? How can you for sure. So I think I brought a bit of experience to it which helped because I'd, I'd done a lot of travel before that and I traveled in unconventional ways and, and you know, I spent two years living on a sailboat and sailing across the Pacific. And there was so many people who had told us like that's a dangerous thing to do and you're going to die and you don't know what it's like out there on the ocean. And there was this vast difference between how people regarded sailing in the ocean and how sailing in the ocean actually was. And so I kind of learned to be a little bit dismissive of that common belief or that myth that surrounds, you know, danger and to listen more closely to the people who have done it or the people who are in it because they're the ones that are going to be able to give you informed advice. So before we went, we, I, I, I checked in with a few friends of mine who, you know, like solo women travelers who had been to India and spent a significant amount of time there. And I asked them, you know, what do you think of this and do you think it's going to be safe? And.

And yeah, a bunch of them said, you know, yeah, you like, you'll be fine, it'll be fine. It's not nearly as bad as what it's made out to be. So I mean, some people have really, really terrible experiences there. So it's not like this isn't a blanket yet. It' safe, everybody should go and not worry about it. But.

There'S nuance to it, I guess, and that's the part you have to really sort of listen for and you know, listen to your intuition around. So then when we set out, it was really just taking it moment by moment and trying to assess is this, are we okay? Is this safe? Should we be doing it? And if at any point it got, it got to, you know, feel a little bit too much, I think we would of pulled out. But it, you know, it was okay like we was confronting and I know the passage you just read, that's, you know, the depth of the sort of difficulty of it all, but despite that it was still, it was still beautiful in its own ways and confronting. But.

Yeah, I don't know there's something just wonderful about surrendering into that. And.

Yeah.

So I don't know if that answers the question.

And you do describe how generous everyone was that actually contrary to feeling like you were in constant danger, people opened up their homes to you. They were making you chai tea at every stop along the way. They were giving you places to sleep that you had to actually clear out your bag of mace in order to make room for the gifts and good luck trinkets that everyone was giving you.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I mean we had so many chai invitations for chai that we had to turn people down constantly, like very aggressively because they would, you know, come, come, come have chai with us. And we're thank you, thank you. And no, come on, come on. Like, no, thank you. We had to just get really aggressive about saying no because it was, you know, people were just really, really supportive and they wanted to do what they could to help. And.

Yeah, it wasn't. I mean there were no situations where I felt like the most threatening part of being there was walking headlong into traffic and you know, like walking on the side of the road where there was no shoulder. It just road and then like hedge and trucks coming at us and that, you know, that was kind of dangerous. Not gonna lie.

Yeah, but.

And you know, the possibility of snakes and stuff like that. But the people, which is like, you know, it's a really crowded place and it's really chaotic and. But we were supported the whole way. We were supported and we were encouraged. Nobody believed we were walking 23 days in Gandhi's footsteps. They all thought we were lying, but they were really supportive.

That's so funn. They didn't believe you.

I mean we even had a press article that we showed them and they're still no, no, you can't be doing. That's crazy. Wow.

Well, you did it. One of the themes you explore on that walk was you asked the question, can a love story still be a love story without a happy ending? And this is a big thing you're grappling with because again, Tori's first book was a love story.

It was. I remember the first subtitle. I'll never forget it. It was swept like what was it? Or now, now I'm forgetting it, of course. But you retitled it to love with a chance of drowning. Is that right or am I making that up? Yeah, you got it right.

Yeah.

So while you were processing this pretty devastating breakup of a 10 year relationship, media are calling, people are writing to You. And you're having to confront this question, like this kind of not wanting to let people down. I'm curious to reflections on that kind of what is. What does define a love story and how you dealt with that at the time. That juxtaposition of having a very public piece of work out there, knowing that the private story is unfolding in a way you probably weren't ready to share. And how do you reconcile that? And I think so many people feel that even on a micro level, even they post on Facebook in a relationship. And then what happens when that changes? Not to mention having a book and movie rights.

I know. I mean, it seems like a very kind of unique experience that I've got a memoir out there and I'm actively, like, publicizing it while it's falling apart. Like, that's, you know.

But interrupt how you, in this article you wrote on the breakup said, like, you can't really Google. What do you do when you've written a memoir of your love story and you break up? Like, there's just not that many reasons, resources for someone.

Okay.

But now that you mention it, it makes me think of how, you know, a lot, like, a lot of us are kind of stuck in that same situation. You're right. Because you. You're getting all this validation through social media that the life that you're living right now is the what, you know, you get all the likes for it, and, you know, oh, I want to be there. And, you know, you're just getting this constant sort of like you're getting. You're branded and stuck in this place that you're in. And then if for any reason that changes, whether it's pivoting or whether it's, you know, something breaking up or falling apart, they can. There's this extra layer that we have to deal with now. So, I mean, I. I dealt with it in a. In a way that I wouldn't recommend, which is to just ostrich. I absolutely avoided it. And I felt stuck about knowing what to do. Like, people had read the book and they loved the book, and I was getting, you know, just this gushing emails from people constantly saying, you know, it's inspired me to travel and, you know, it's just such a magical story. And I'm so glad that, you know, things worked out with you and Ivan and. Or I get emails from people saying, oh, my God, please tell me you're still with Ivan. Like, I'd get those emails all the time, but there was this one time when I was at A Like, what was it? It was an event for another writer, and by chance, somebody there recognized me. And she came up to me and she said, tori, oh, my God, I'd loved your book so much. Are you still with Ivan? And I decided, you know what? I'm just gonna tell her the truth. I said, oh, no, no. We actually broke up. And she. She put her hands over her mouth and just, like, was so. She was like. She just had no idea that was coming. And she backed off. Like, she backed out of the room.

Oh, man.

It was like, that's the last thing. And I was like, it's okay. It's okay. I mean, we're okay. And I was trying to reassure her, but I felt terrible about the fact that I had wr book and I'd taken people in to this love story and sort of, you know, woven a spell, because that's kind of what a book does. It. You know, it pulls people into the experience and they feel like they've lived it. And. And then I've left people with this happy ending that then turned after the book. And I felt like I was. I just felt like a really mean thing to do to other people, like, to readers, to have to disappoint them on that level. So I didn't know how to deal with it. And I. I just stopped blogging, and I stopped. I didn't answer any emails for quite a long time. So people were emailing me, you know, those sorts of emails, and I just didn't answer them. And I started to develop kind of a lot of resistance and shame around it and just negative feelings. And every time I'd even think about blogging or think about writing again, I just clam up. Like, it really was just.

I was just sort of painted into a corner by this whole situation. So then I ended up. So, yeah, as I started to write this second book, that was almost like my way of working through that second phase, through the breakup and.

Coming to terms with it, but also offering people. I mean, it's a standalone story. It's not dependent on people having read the first book. But if people had read the first book and they were in that sort of magical space, and then this book is kind of like the medicine for the breakup, you know, I see it that way. It's like a way to let people know that, you know, even when terrible thing, even when something ends, there's still all this magic on the other side of it, and there's still all this hope. It's like we put so much emphasis on love stories and on happy endings. And, you know, it's really all a lot of people care about, but it is not the deal and end all of life, but there's a lot more to life. And I guess I just wanted to. I wanted to capture that. And so when I did and I put that book out and I started to blog again, I was just such a really fear was like, suddenly I could write again and I could communicate again. And, you know, being honest about it is so essential. So when I say I made a mistake, that's the mistake I made. And I think, you know, if anybody else is in a situation like that, the best thing to do is just to acknowledge it and not and be open about it, because that it's gonna release it.

Yeah. And it is such a gift. Even though you felt at the time like you were disappointing people.

For the love story of you and your community, if you will. It's not. It's not. It's actually that they might feel so comforted to know and do now on the other side, like, just so comforted to know. Oh, I'm not alone. Oh, things that have ended for me. There's light at the end of the tunnel. Or if they're going through that right now. And I mean, not to paint a happy ending, but one of my favorite Zen parables is called we'll see. And it's like something good happens to Farmer, and he says, we'll see. And then, you know, it's like his son gets a horse. We'll see. Oh, that's great news. The son falls off the horse, breaks his legs. Oh, that's terrible. We'll see. Oh, well, now the son is drafted to the army, but he can't go because he has a broken leg. That's great news. We'll see.

You know.

Oh, but now he's home and he catches this pneumonia. We'll see. So you know your case also, you're such a beautiful example of will see. Like, yes, you broke up with this relationship the first book is based on, but you're now actually happily settled and living with someone in Melbourne in a completely different type of relationship.

Not that you need to be for this to be a beautiful story, but there's a will see, you know, that life is evolving.

Yeah. Yeah, I love that story. That's very, very true.

And also, I have to say this because I'm guilty of same thing. Sometimes I call it like turtle mode. So I like your ostriching term. But I got a newsletter from you recently that Said, hi, everyone. It's been three years. Hopefully you still remember who I am. I'm gonna start emailing again. I have a book coming out. You're also working on another project that I would love to hear about called the Illustrated Guide to Calming the F Down.

And.

And I didn't think anything of it. I was like, oh my God, so glad she's back. Can't wait to check out her new work.

Wonderful.

I wasn't sitting there thinking, where did you go those three years? Like, how dare you let life get in the way of your blogging or your email newsletter? And so I think that too is a reminder at least I kind of operate this way. People are just going to be happy to hear from you. Like, the right people will be happy to hear from you whenever you feel like communicating. And if you needed that three years, then all of us are happy to. For you to have taken it. Because what else, what more can we expect from. Especially people who essentially, oddly, our job is to, like, live our life and pour our soul out somehow. How can you do that if you're. When you're in the midst of grief, it's not always possible.

Yeah, that's right. It's a funny thing because when I stopped blogging, I mean, it wasn't like I made it. Woke up one day and thought, I'm going to take three years off. I just spent about a year, year not updating it and feeling extremely guilty and thinking, oh God, you know, I'm losing all these, like, all this, everything I've built, this platform. I'm just, it's like, you know, having a bunch of money that you're just watching fly off into the wind. That's what it felt like, this thing that I built just disappearing and. But looking back, that was a silly thought because that, that just wasn't what happened. You know, people, people didn't just abandon the blog. I mean, you know, slipped in rankings and stuff like that. But it's just, it's so much more important to be well and to have a good experience of life than it is to just hang in there and show up and, you know, all that sort of stuff that I think that we feel a lot of pressure to do.

Tell us about the project.

So the new project is kind of taking the, the best lessons of these pilgrimages that I did about. You know, I really, through the process of doing these two pilgrimages and combining that with previous experience like vipassana and various meditation techniques, I feel like I got to a place where I overcame my anxiety and I found this much, much higher quality of life for myself, even in the face of really dark experiences. So, like, being in India was a really, really good way to put it into practice. Where I was in a less than ideal environment and I could practice this, you know, being calm in the face of something hard and it would, it would work, you know, I could, I could still find that same place. So what I'm working on at the moment takes his lessons. And it. I'm working with this illustrator named Sarah Steenland, who has this incredible ability to draw cartoons straight from my head, it seems.

They're so cool.

She draws awesome. She's awesome. She's so good. And so she's created this map that kind of, you know, that's. This is the map for the whole series, which will be probably about 30 posts long. So the inner part of the map is the human body. And so it's got the heart and the guide, and there's the skin and the lungs. And I'm going to explore the theme of fear and anxiety through all of these objects that you can click on in the map. And then outside the body is the environment and all the environmental factors that might influence fear and anxiety. So I've got strangers in there and there's a snake and there's. There's a. There's like a journey and there's. There's tornado, which I want to, you know, is a good opportunity to talk about climate change and all that kind of existential fear that. That's pretty much in the zeitgeist at this point. And then outside of that is a universe where I want to sort of create perspective. So I'm. Each post explores a different theme and it combines, you know, personal story, like maybe a little bit of psychology and science and quite a bit of my irreverent humor and Sarah's cartoonish illustrations. So it's a bit of an experiment and I don't know, you know, how well it's going to do, but it's a lot of fun to make and.

Yeah, I love it. I love it. It's really special. And Tori has a Patreon page if you want to support this project. I just found it this morning and signed up, and I would love to end with an ode to your dad. I'm curious to know one thing you learned as a writer, being the daughter of a horror story writer. What's something kind of odd or unexpected that you actually apply in your own work?

There was one thing he told me once it was when I was sailing and I was having the worst time, you know, half the time while I was sailing. That's the nature of sailing. And I was writing to him after this storm that we'd survived and said something along the lines of, like, whenever you're in a dark place, turn to your writing. Like, that's a place you can always go. And so, you know, I really took that on board. And all throughout the grief, you know, even like the day that the breakup happened and the day that I lost my dad, I was just writing. And I wasn't writing, you know, prose or anything great, but sometimes it would be weird poetry that, you know, I don't write poetry, but that was what wanted to come out at that point. Or it would be just processing what had happened, or it would, like, I just write notes. And I think that that kept me sane and kept my kind of mind organized. But it's also a way, like, if you are a writer or a creative or, you know, can stand a game from writing, which I think most of us can, it's just a really good way to make use of what feel like times that. That aren't productive, you know, it's ultimately does become productive.

So, yeah, I remember feeling, during a really tough time for me, I felt like this idea came to mind. Suffering is your quill dipped in ink that while you're suffering, your quill is getting inked, it's getting there. And then when you can pull it out and step back just a moment, there's so much, so much to express and that writing can just help. And again, it's not that we would ever choose our suffering, suffering, but that it can transform it, certainly. So I love your dad's advice.

Yeah, that's. That's really good. Yeah.

Amazing. Tori, thank you so much for being you and being the fearful adventurer that you are. You're one of the bravest women I know.

So still.

Such a juxtaposition to see what you do and yet get the privilege of a front row seat to your inner monologue, which should give us all the encouragement that we can do the things that scare us. Where can people find you if they want to keep in touch?

So my blog is Fearful adventurer dot com. So everything's there. And my new series is there and. Yeah, that's it. And I'm on Twitter and Facebook and all those types of things as well now and then. Amazing.

Amazing. Do you have a next book in the works yet?

That's a tricky question. People ask me all the time like, no, I got nothing. It's all in vivid.

I think that I'm might be. No, I don't want to say this, but I feel like I might be done with memoir because the last one was. It was hard. I found it hard to keep talking about myself like it was, you know, it's just difficult. Memoir is difficult. So I think that that might be my last memoir, or at least for now. But I'm working on a couple of fiction books. I've got a short story, like a novella that I'm writing that's horror.

I can't help it. I can't help writing Horro. I'm good at it, I bet.

Oh, I can't wait. I love it.

It comes easily for me to scare people.

And then I'm also. Yeah, I'm writing a novel that's set on an island. And it. It's kind of derives a little bit from some of the experiences I had living on an island and sort of the darkened nature of small communities and, you know, nomads who sort of run away from the world to go and live in an idealistic place that turns out to not be like. Not be so idealistic. Very much like the beach, but a bit more along the lines of Revolutionary Road. Yeah. So it's also got a bit of darkness and a bit of mild horror themes in it.

Ooh, I love it. I already see it on the back on the Amazon page. It's like the beach meets Revolutionary Road in this thrilling novel from Dora de Roche, now set to be a major motion picture or TV set series.

Amazing. Tori, thank you so much. It was such a joy to talk with you and I eagerly await everything you send our way whenever you choose to send it.

Thank you. It's lovely to chat and thank you so much for all your support.

Always.

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