73: What's more important to you than perfection? With Jenny Blake

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What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello my friends. Jenny Blake here, your favorite Pivot podcast host. See what I did there? Because I'm the only host of this show, I realized that it's been a while since I did a solo show and when I thought about why that was a case, I realized it's because my perfectionism monster was rearing its ugly head or beautiful head because I try to be nice to all my monsters and dragons. But in any case, I thought, well, well then why not remedy that with a solo show on perfectionism? I can share how it comes up for me and some strategies that I use for pushing past it, juking past it, sidestepping past it, or pivoting past my perfectionism. It's always a work in progress. But I'm excited to get into this topic today and it's one that's important to me and because I really want for us all to not be held back and paralyzed by this impossible quest for perfection and instead get more of our great work out there to the world. Before I start in on this riff, I have created a Pivot Podcast survey. I would really love to hear from you. Sometimes it can feel like talking into outer space because I can't see any of your faces. And I do get the most wonderful notes from some of you who are listening, but for the most part feels like a little bit of a black box where I'm not exactly sure what you like. Honestly, it really surprises me when I hear people will come up to me and say, oh I love your podcast. Or just listen to this episode and I think to myself, wow, cool, someone's listening because I can't see any of you. So I would love to know what kinds of episodes you've really enjoyed what you want to see more of and more about you and what you're excited about, what your challenges are. So please do me a favor. And I know it's tricky because podcasts you're often doing other things, but make a note of this URL pivotmethod.com survey and when you get a chance, I'd be super grateful for you to fill it out. And that will help me know if you want me to do more solo shows like this one and if so, on what topics and what kinds of guests to go track down for you. You know, not everyone's gonna say yes, but I can at least try. So I consider this the little Pivot podcast engine that could because when I first started I really had no clue what I was doing or where it would take me. But I've come to realize that it's one of my favorite things that I do in my work as a solopreneur. So again, that URL is pivotmethod.com survey. I would be so grateful if you go fill it out. And if you're not already on Pivot List, my weekly ish newsletter get on there too, because that's another great way that we can keep in touch outside of the mysterious itunes or Stitcher wherever you listen to podcasts box. So that's@pivotmethod.com pivotlist and join us. I always send out a curated list of my favorite things that I'm reading, watching, listening to, and tools that I'm geeking out on. All right, let's get into this perfectionism thing, shall we? Before we do that, actually, two exciting shows coming up. One, I'm interviewing my good friend Andrea Owen on her new book that's coming out called how to Stop feeling like shit. 15 habits or 14 that are holding you back from happiness. That'll come out in the new year. And so will my friend Petra Colber's book on the Perfection Detox. I had Petra on the Pivot podcast a while back. I'll link to that in the show notes. But I'm so excited for these two books and maybe, who knows, maybe what I talk about today will already be covered in them. Not 100% sure, but nonetheless, if this is a topic that you're excited about, get these two books on your radar. How to Stop Feeling Like Shit by Andrea Owen and Perfection Detox by Petra Colbert. I was recently at an awesome one day event called Move the Crowd by my friend Ra Gottis puts this on. And one of the panelists. His name is Jeffrey Marsh. There was this business pitch panel, and Jeffrey is a gender fluid author, commenter, and activist. He wrote a book called the Gender Fluid generation. Oh, man. And he said this thing that just stopped the tracks. Like, stopped the room. So this entrepreneur was pitching their business and how to tell their story. And Jeffrey said to this person, he said, you gotta ask yourself, am I gonna do this right or am I gonna do this as me? Am I gonna do this right or am I gonna do this as me? And he was giving feedback on how to plan their business and how to tell their story. And we hear so much about, well, I gotta do this right, or I have to follow just the exact right business model or. Or have the right outcomes. But what does that even mean? And Jeffrey's call to action was, what does it look like to do things as yourself if you weren't worried about doing them right? This podcast wouldn't exist if I was worried about doing it right. Some of you may know the story, but I'll just tell it very briefly because it kind of illustrates my journey around perfectionism through a creative project. So when I first set up the podcast, I had no clue how the hell to get this thing in itunes, how to do the fancy music or anything. I just started recording conversations. And by the way, I was using my crappy little iPhone headphones, so really bad mic action. And I was using a conference call service. Again, not the best, clearest way to record something. And I would call in with a friend, record the conversation, upload it to SoundCloud, and you probably even heard me say things like, well, I don't have any fancy intro and outro music, but let's jump into today's show. And I did that for a year where I didn't have the fancy music. I didn't know the first thing about editing a show. I just wanted to have these conversations and make them public. And if I didn't have that in me to be scrappy about it, it would never have happened. Part of the reason that I don't do more solo shows. And as I reflected on why I haven't done one in so long, I realized, dang it, I'm being a perfectionist again. Because I keep. I'm on the road a lot right now for speaking engagements, which is really exciting. But I keep saying to myself, well, I don't have all the best, most quiet time. I don't have a big quiet block right now, or, well, I certainly can't record while I'm on the road because I won't have my fancy podcast mic, which, by the way, everybody is in my. I have a small walk in closet. I live in a studio in New York City with my partner Michael, and he happens to do voiceover work on the side sometimes. So once he moved in earlier this year, back in March, he set up a podcasting studio in the closet, and we both use it from time to time, which is really funny. So that's where I'm standing right now, in a closet. And I got kind of attached to this idea of the perfect mic that I didn't have. If I didn't have the perfect sound, I shouldn't record anything at all. So that has kept me from doing more casual episodes while I'm on the road and while I don't have this amazing setup and we taped little foam stuff to the door and the mic is set up just so, and the closet kind of blocks out some sound. And I also thought to myself, well, if I don't have the perfect topic or if I haven't outlined it just so I don't know exactly what to say and what if I ramble? Maybe you're not going to like it. And, you know, that could be the case. Maybe I'm going to ramble on this one and you're not going to like it. But. So I wasn't doing it. And in fact, over the summer, I stopped publishing the podcast for six weeks, partly because I was just locked up in this. Like, I just didn't know how to beat the perfectionism monster. And again, I don't. I don't really. I gotta. I gotta adjust my language on this because you've probably heard me talk about. I talk about this a lot with my private momentum community of this aggressive language around slaying your dragons like your fear dragons. Slay the dragon, crush your fears, demolish your fears. And my big thing is domesticating dragons, like, let's make them our friends. So my perfectionism monster, you know, I talked. I did a podcast episode on my rest monster. That was after the book came out. And I felt like there was this big furry monster from Monsters, Inc. Was kind of the rest monster. And he was like, come lay on the couch with me. And he was really nice. He just wanted me to rest. But so I got to think of one for this perfectionism.

Is it a monster? I don't know. Okay, I am really digressing, but there's part of my process which is to stop making a part of ourself or myself the enemy and to stop thinking that I need to beat or crush or kill or demolish this thing that is a part of me. Perfectionism works for us up until a point, and I think that that's why it exists, because some attention to detail is a good thing, some commitment to quality and excellence and doing a great job and trying to give you my best work is a good thing. And to the extent that you have enjoyed the guests and the topics that I've covered, it's because I've put a lot of thought into them and. And yet if we take it too far, it becomes paralyzing. And that's again, as I reflected on the solo show front, what happened while I was at Google and I wrote about this in Pivot, we often had this mindset called Get Scrappy that the goal was do not wait until you have a perfect product or program to launch. Period, end of story. That was actually really frowned upon. And instead have this mindset of launch and iterate, get something out, anything out, even if it's not perfect, and get feedback and then keep revising. This also fits the lean startup mentality. And you can see how Google does this when it launches things that certainly aren't perfect. And they do that on purpose. They want you to find the bugs. They want users to give feedback and say what they like and don't like. And some of Google's products are a huge success, like Gmail, which started as a 20% project. And then others are big flops. Do any of you remember Google Wave or even Google, I don't think really ever caught on the way that they thought it would. So Get Scrappy. After a year of doing the podcast and my scrappy Uploading to SoundCloud with my crappy mic, I realized, you know what? I like this thing. I really enjoy doing this. I want to learn more about it. This is another concept that I talk about in Pivot. If you pilot, if you start small and you don't put pressure on yourself to be perfect, but you see these little projects as a way to just get feedback. And I call it getting feedback on the three E's make for a good pilot. One, do I enjoy this new area? Two, can I become an expert at it and do I want to? And three, is there room to expand in your business or in the marketplace or within your company if you're employed for someone else? So with doing the Pivot podcast, I realized, heck yeah, I enjoy this thing. This is so fun. I get to talk to my heroes, even if I had zero listeners, I'd be ecstatic to have a reason to connect with these people. And it fits my personality so much better than asking someone I admire, like, hey, can I pick your brain? Because I hate that phrase. And I like having there be some mutually beneficial interaction where we record our conversation and then many more people can benefit than just me. So that has been so fun. And I didn't even check my stats for the first year. People would ask, how many downloads are you getting? And I would say, oh, I have no clue. I haven't even looked. Because I was enjoying it so much. Can I become an expert at it? And do I want to? Well, I was teaching myself audio editing, and there again, I found my own intro and outro music on a site called Pond 5. And I created my own intro and outro. And it's not perfect. To this day, every time I hear it, I can tell where I had to cut in and give the new URL for show notes, which, in case you need it, it's pivotmethod.com podcast. Once I decided to close down Jennyblake me for the time being. So it's not perfect. And finally, I started hiring an audio editor. Once I was on the road more, I figured out how to get the show into itunes, and I kept going, kept moving. So here again, it's this idea of, well, something is better than nothing. So I really enjoy. Do I need to become an expert audio engineer? No. But what I would love to become an expert at is interviewing. I have to tell you that.

Almost every single time that I finish an interview, I. I have a perfectionism voice that pops in that's like, man, you did this awkwardly. You did this awkwardly. You stumbled on your words here, you interrupted them there. It kind of critiques the whole thing. And by the way, this perfectionism, man, I need a better name than Monster, but it talks to me every time I get off stage as well. So keynote speaking is one of the main ways that I earn a living. And every single time I get off stage, I've been speaking in front of groups for 10 years, and still every time I get off stage, I know exactly what I did wrong. I'm sure I have blind spots that I'm not catching, but I'll know. I'll know where I was awkward, where my energy dropped, where I kind of messed something up. And the key is not to dwell in that. So perfectionism for me comes in two places. One before, as I'm contemplating doing something. Well, actually three places beforehand. Well, if the conditions aren't perfect. I shouldn't even record a solo episode. Then it comes in the middle. So, well, maybe I shouldn't release this or. Oh, I really gotta keep refining this until I release it. And then at the end, maybe I'll finish an interview and I'll look back and think all the things I would have done differently. And I can look, I can listen to interviews and maybe you enjoy the show. I hope you do. I really hope you do. But I still feel a little bit like a kindergartner interviewer. And speaking of Pivot, I actually was a journalist my whole life. I started a family newspaper when I was 10 years old interviewing family members. So I will say that this is one of my childhood skills or strengths or loves was interviewing people and sharing their stories and learning information and then trying to disseminate it to others. Something I've just always loved to do, teaching and interviewing. But still, when I listen to podcasts, I have in my mind, you know, Terry Gross, Marc Maron, these iconic interviewers who get so in depth with people and are so present and in the moment. And in the beginning, I felt like my podcast was a lot of a book report. Like, I would read someone's book and I would. I would almost, and partly on purpose, I wanted to bring you the CliffsNotes of what this author could share. And maybe you didn't have to read the book. You just read this, read, listen to this podcast episode, and you would. You would glean the most important takeaways for things like from Kelly McGonagall, the upside of stress, or.

All kinds of topics. I love counterintuitive ideas or concepts. How do we flip the script on stress and fear and worry and insecurity and, hey, today, perfectionism. But I realized that was a huge missed opportunity because anyone can talk about their book. And after Pivot came out and I had told the same stories or the same method and framework 50 or 100 times on as many podcasts, I realized, man, there's something so beautiful when an interviewer will take me into what's happening right now, what am I thinking about right now or struggling with right now? And so when I listen back to podcasts, I can see how far I want to improve. I have a vision in my mind for being that super present, engaging interviewer that brings out the juiciness and gets. I want people who I interview to leave my podcast feeling like, wow, that was so fun. That stuff I never really talk about. Cool. That even gave me an aha moment. And I want you listening to feel like, yes, I can't wait for there to be another episode of the Pivot podcast. And that you're really getting.

Awesome, authentic content that resonates with you. And that's helpful. Ultimately, that's helpful, too. So I go through this thing where after. After every episode and every time I listen back, I hear the awkwardness, I hear the imperfection, I hear the difference between where I'm at and this vision in my mind. And the critical thing is to keep going. I once wrote a blog post that blogging will beat the perfectionism out of you. That the very nature of a blog, of posting content week after week. And I blogged for 10 years, from 2000, 2007, a little earlier to just about 2016, and it will, because in order to keep a blog going, and a podcast is very similar, you have to be okay with no one post being perfect. But the goal is consistency, and you just got to keep having ideas and sharing them. It's also an exercise in truth. What is true for me at the moment, if I don't do a solo show, I don't really have to tell you. See how tricky that is? And I talk about. I used to try and write some blog posts that were helpful, like tips, tools, templates, life hacks. And then I would try and alternate that with what I call truth posts with a capital T. What is true for me at this moment? What am I struggling with at this moment? And that's what today's podcast episode is. It's like a live, real time peek into my brain. And I do not have a script. I have a few notes on a Evernote Moleskine notebook. Just a few bullet points, really. And so you're getting unscripted, unvarnished, not planned. And I don't know if you're gonna like it. And maybe you feel like I'm already rambling. See, there it is. There's a perfectionism voice chiming right in. But I push myself to do it because I love. I love when other people share. And when I was thinking, you know, I've been really getting into Ali Brown's Glambition radio podcast for female entrepreneurs, and I started realizing that I love her 10 minute intros where she just says where she's been traveling and what she's up to and what she's thinking about, and I kind of realized, oh, I don't do that. I could do a better job of that. So that's why we're here today.

Another thing that's been really helpful. So let's talk about too, by the way, why does perfectionism exist? And I was thinking, should I introduce myself to you? Should I say, you know, I'm Jenny Blake and I am a perfectionist, or I kind of lately have called myself a recovering perfectionist and a recovering people pleaser. And so whatever nomenclature we use, like, whether you believe, okay, yes, I'm recovering, or it's just always a work in progress. I mean, I think that's the key, is we don't need to label it, but is that it's something that is an ongoing exercise and it's an ongoing muscle to build. And I talked earlier about part of the reason that perfectionism exists, at least for me, is to an extent, it has been helpful. Like, I'm super detail oriented with my books and I really care. I really. So if we look at it, I'd say perfectionism is rooted in two things, fears and values. The fear side is, I'm not enough. I'm not good enough. Or in order to be liked, or here's that people pleaser. In order to be approved of or in order to do well, I need to be perfect. That if I'm perfect and I make the perfect outputs and products, then it'll be cool, things will work out. And if I don't, I'm gonna become an epic failure, you know, or even, even barring that, like, if I don't, if one episode isn't perfect, you're gonna stop listening and then people are gonna unsubscribe. You know, I'll just take you down. Podcast is a very low stakes kind of situation, but we do this in a lot of areas. I certainly do it in the area of dating and relationships. That I could tell you right now, I'm in the first and best relationship I've ever had. Like, not the first relationship, but the first one in a really long time. Certainly the best I've ever had. Michael is amazing, but it really. I really struggled in the beginning, particularly for the first six months, thinking, well, gotta be perfect to kind of keep this thing that. And I. And I used to feel that way my whole life. Like, gotta work out. Gotta. Gotta keep a certain weight. Gotta be all these things, jump through all these hoops. One of my favorite blog posts I ever wrote was called Stop auditioning for other people's lives. I was just such an auditioner. Like, man, I gotta be perfect for you so you approve of me and so I can keep you around. And it was just this constant state of auditioning. So that's the fear side of perfectionism for me. And then the values is the positive side. It's why it's helpful. So I have a major value around quality and excellence, and I don't need to be the best, but I always want to do the best that I can do. And I often, when it's things I really care about, like writing a book, I do have a very clear vision for a lot of things, whether it's the branding or the book itself, the content, the title, the subtitle, the packaging, the marketing. Like, I really care about every tiny detail. And I could see how I'm somewhat of an obnoxious author to work with, but maybe also great because I'm organized and I care and I'm passionate and I'm meticulous and I could see how it's exhausting for people, but it helps me to produce things that I feel are.

Impactful, like, that make a difference, that you hold something in your hand and even if you can't put your finger on it, the content somehow resonates because so much care and so much love has gone into it and so much of that attention to detail.

So if we look at the ways that perfectionism. So on the fear side, okay. Oh, it's just trying to be helpful. Oh, my perfectionism just wants me to be liked. I get it. This is that domesticating dragons thing. Like, I get it. I get why you're afraid. I get that you just want to do a good job and you just want people to like you or like what you're putting out. And then on the. The hyper vigilant side, the quality side, I wouldn't call that hyper vigilant, but let's call it like a hyper attentive attention to detail. It's like, okay, I get it. You want to do a great job and put great stuff out there. And listen, getting scrappy is not about getting sloppy. Let me say that maybe that should be the title of this episode. No, that's a different show. But I'm not talking about being sloppy. I'm not talking about, like, it being completely haphazard and ignoring things that we care about or putting out totally subpar stuff. There is a balance, but I do think that we can choose to 80, 20 the perfectionism thing. And so that means. Let's call it that.

I don't know, you pick which one you think is more helpful. Is it that 80% in the middle is helpful and it's 10% on either side. The fears and the overcorrecting that's not. Or is it that just 20%. And as I'm saying this, probably 20% is all we need. And then the less the rest, we kind of surrender it and just say it's cool and I'm gonna do this thing anyway. And so probably, I think actually as I'm saying it, 20%, man, that's so much more sane way to live. It's like, yeah, I want to show up, I want to be responsible, I want to be self aware, I want to have attention to detail. But I could probably let go of 80% of the riff raff, the clutter, the fear, the mental clutter around it. And this is where, of course, you guys know. I talk about meditation a lot, but it is super helpful for me. I feel like meditation has absolutely rewired my brain, as has the book Outrageous Openness by Tosha Silver, which is all about surrender. And the work by Byron Katie, I'm going to do a future episode. See, this is me telling you right now, not going to hold myself back. I'm going to do another one on how to free yourself from fear. Not completely, but kind of inner fear. And so the work by Byron Katie has been so helpful. She believes that anytime you think a stressful thought, you can choose a different one. And that every stressful thought is an invitation. It is an alarm clock waking us up to a reality that isn't true, to a dream that we're in, a nightmare, really, that we don't need to stay stuck in. So the work is a process. Of these four questions, you turn around, you create and choose a more truthful thought. And I'll tell you them right now. You can go to thework.com and there's a free, it's called the judge your neighbor worksheet. And now there's even an app where you can do these worksheets. I highly recommend recommend it. And these books, Loving what is and I need your love. Is that true? Have been complete game changers for me. So the questions are as follows. Let's say you think a stressful thought, like.

Trying to think of one that's podcast related. Like, yeah, I have to have perfect recording conditions to make a good show. And I could ask myself. The questions are, is it true? I might say, well, yeah, I do. I mean, have you seen all the great podcasts that are out there? There's more competition now than ever. Can you absolutely know that it's true? Well, no, I guess nothing in this world is absolutely certain. How do you feel when you think that thought? That's question three. And I could say, well, I feel blocked, fearful, untrusting, anxious, sad, and just kind of blocked. That's really how I feel when I think that thought, because I just don't create anything at all. Who would you be without that thought? That's question four. I would be free. I'd be more creative. I would be more in the moment, I'd be having more fun with this show. I would be more truthful, I would be more self expressed. And honestly, I think I'd be more helpful because I would be telling you what's really going on in a way that I learn from other people's challenges as they're overcoming them. And I love it. I would be more. More of what I value and appreciate in other people's shows and creative work. So now that you've done those four questions, is it true? Can you absolutely know that it's true? How do you feel when you think that thought? And who would you be without that thought? Now we turn it around. That means that you take the original statement and you flip all the pronouns and you come up with as many different versions of that sentence as possible. So my original was, I have to have the perfect conditions in order to make a good show. So I could say I don't have to have perfect conditions in order to make a good show. I could even say, like, I don't have to make a good show, or it's not my job to discern the value of an episode. So I would just come up with a bunch of different statements and then you pick the one that feels most true. Usually for every single one, you could find a way that it's true.

Or it's like, I already have perfect conditions to make a good show. So for me, any one of those feels true. Like, no, of course I don't need perfect conditions. And you know what? I bet that you all listening would care less about if I had the perfect microphone as opposed to good content or interesting content. So if I'm on the road and some idea strikes me, fine, what if I record in my hotel room with iPhone speakers? Like, are you gonna be mad at me? Are you gonna stop listening? Are you gonna unsubscribe? Like, probably not. So I need to get over it. And so then she has you close with these two statements. I am willing to and I look forward to. So I could say, I am willing to record an episode without perfect conditions. Gasp. Oh, man, I'm already shocking myself. You become willing to do the Thing that you think you can and then you say, I look forward. So I'm going to say it to you right now. I look forward to recording an episode without the perfect conditions and without a script. That's partially what I'm doing right now, even though I have the safety of my fancy mic. See how silly our brains are sometimes of what it takes to be loved. And also. So I look forward to that. I can actually say that honestly right now. It's cool to do this work with you in the moment while recording. I look forward to recording an episode without perfect conditions. And I hereby commit to all of you, you're now my accountability buddies. But I'm gonna do it. You're gonna hear it. I'm a couple months. This is a good thing. I'm back where I have a couple, you know, I'm at least a month or two out on the podcast because I plan ahead. Yay. Because I'm on the road. And that's always like such a relief because it can be kind of stressful to be recording an episode that goes out that very week in case I'm on the road. So it may be coming in a couple weeks. You'll probably know it when you hear it. I'll tell you it's a follow up to this show, but I'm gonna do it. So there. I just took you through the work and I really encourage you to do this. When you find yourself struggling with perfectionism, the big key, so is noticing. Notice it, keep going, publish anyway. Find and replace stressful thoughts and reconnect to your end goal. What is more important to you than perfectionism or perfection? What is more important to you than perfection?

I value connection. I value truth. I value authenticity. I value being in the moment. I value resonance and relatedness and realness. That is what I value. Ultimately, I don't value perfectionism. I certainly don't value paralysis by perfection and that quest for perfection. So when you can reconnect. I value learning. I value growing. That's what makes us, as I say in pivot, high net growth individuals. We are committed vigorously to learning and growing. And that means that we are going to be in a state of imperfection more often than not because we're stretching ourselves and challenging ourselves and pushing ourselves and that fun. We would not have it any other way. So all we can do, at least for me, all I can do is just notice when I'm having that perfectionism thing going on. What if it is practical and I could actually improve the work that I'M doing, but while publishing. While publishing, believe I think it was Gary Vaynerchuk talks about not.

Not focusing so much on publishing, but rather documenting. Can you bring people along for the journey? And so that's really what I think at the end of it. Perfectionism and kind of how to get around it, how to sidestep it is to say what is this thing that I'm doing and is it still worth it that even if I don't do it perfectly, is it still worth hitting publish on? And almost always the answer is yes. So what's more important to you than your perfectionism and all those values that I just listed? An episode like this one, do you hear like I just stepped and I crinkled a bag and I don't know if you're going to hear that in the recording. My cell phone is now ring. This is perfect timing. All this background noise is happening and I'm gonna release this anyway and I'm not gonna try and edit it out. So I encourage you to ask those same things about what you're working on. What is more important to you than perfectionism and how can you keep going even in the face of fear and insecurity and self doubt? You've got this. I would love to hear what you thought of this episode, so please send me a note and fill out this survey. Please. I would love to know what you find helpful. That's@pivotmethod.com survey. You guys all rock. Thank you so much for being here and listening to this episode and I can't wait to connect with you again soon. Bye.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivotlist, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to, and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.