78: How to Stop Feeling Like Sh*t — With Andrea Owen

With Venmo Stash. A taco in one hand and ordering a ride in the other means you're stacking cash back. Nice. Get up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash on your favorite brands when you pay with your Venmo debit card. From takeout to ride shares, entertainment and more, pick a bundle with your go tos and start earning cash back at those brands. Earn more cash when you do more with Stash. Venmo Stash terms and exclusions apply. Max $100 cash back per month. See Terms at Venmo Me Stash Terms.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast. If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello everybody. Welcome back to the Pivot Podcast. I am bubbling with joy. I'm exploding with enthusiasm this morning. You can't even see. I had to tell Andrea that we're gonna have to hit record at some point because there is just so much I want to ask her. Andrea Owen and I. This is our 10 year friendiversary everybody. 10 years. We met at CTI's coach training program back in 2008 and it's just been incredible to our winding parallel journeys together in that time. I'll tell you a little bit about Andrea and then we'll jump into the show. Andrea Owen is an author, mentor and certified life coach who helps high achieving women let go of perfectionism, control and isolation and choosing courage and confidence instead. She has helped thousands of women manage their inner critic to create loving connections and live their most kick ass life. She's a proud author of 52 Ways to Live a Kick Ass Life. BS free wisdom to ignite your inner badass and live the life you deserve. I love Andrea's titles for things. Her second book, which is the topic of today's show is how to stop feeling like shit. 14 habits that are holding you back from happiness and oh my goodness girl I like we cannot. I don't even know how we're going to squeeze these topics into the time that we have. Andrea Friggin nailed it. And I'm sure this is not just for the ladies out there. So fellas, if you're still with us, keep listening. When Andrea is not juggling her full coaching practice or hosting Retreats. She's busy competing in triathlons, chasing her 10 year old son and 8 year old daughter, or making out with her husband Jason. Such a great bio line.

It really made me stop for a second. I was like, whoa, cool. Okay. She's also retired roller derby player, having skated under the name Veronica. Vanessa. Mm. How'd you come up with that name?

You know how I came up with it? I wanted. I've always loved the name Veronica and vain being. Because I. Some of the elements that I teach are around self love. So that's where that came from.

I love it. I think our homework for everyone listening to this episode is what's your roller derby name?

What's your derby name? Yeah, what's your derby name?

Okay, there. That's like the insider version. Yeah. What's your derby name? How long did you do roller derby?

I did it for about a year and then I got hurt and just never went back.

Yeah, it's kind of why I stopped CrossFit. What'd you learn from derby? How did it change your perspective on things?

I got. I love derby. I still do. I still go to bouts, you know, here in the town that we live in when we can. My husband and I, on date night, when we're not making out, you know. Of course, of course. But I learned, you know what? I. One of the things, I'll tell you what I loved about it is that was a group who accepted everyone and it didn't matter. I mean it was. The players were all shapes and sizes, all different backgrounds, different religions. It just. Trans women. Like it didn't matter. It just. Are you willing to show up and are you willing to skate and are you willing to learn and are you willing to help? Because it's, it's player funded and everything and ran. So that's one of the many things I loved about derby.

Seems like it would really channel your inner badass too.

It does. I mean, you have so many life lessons from derby. I mean, the same with CrossFit, you know, and it's just, you have to, you have to leave your insecurities, you know, on the bench. You can't bring those out on the track or else you will get run over, literally. And you know, you're playing offense and defense at the same time in that sport. And so it's teamwork and just. Oh, I just, I can't say enough about it. I'm. I love that sport. And anyone listening, like, if you haven't been well in New York, their Gotham Derby, like The one of the best teams in the nation, probably in the world. It's an incredible go go to about support local Roller derby I love it.

Love it. Amazing. Andrea, you've been on such an incredible journey. Even at the time that we met, you were just coming out of such a your rock one of your rock bottom of your life. And I'm sure you've told your story zillions of times now because you also have your own podcast. But can you just catch us up with the short version of that rock bottom moment and how it led you to start this 10 year journey and exploration into self love and how to stop feeling like shit.

Yeah, I mean if anybody would have told me 10 or 11 years ago that I would have two books and you know, be talking to such incredible people like yourself, Jenny, I would have been like, no, that's not gonna happen. And what happened was is I was the kind of funny part and ironic part of it is that I found out about life coaching back in 2003, thought it was an incredible and told my husband at the time I said this seems like such a cool thing to do and I would love to do this, but I feel like people that are good at this would have a lot of life experience and I don't have a whole lot of life experience. Well, funny thing, two years later, he had an affair with our neighbor. It was right around the time we were talking about conceiving our first child. We had been together for more than 13 years. I was very invested in his family and he had an affair with our neighbor and got her pregnant and divorced me. It wasn't like, oops, I made this mistake. Can we still work it out somehow, some way? It was, no, I'm in love with this other woman. You're out. So I was basically kicked out of my marriage, but even more painfully kicked out of this family. That and it was one of those kind of byproducts of divorce and so much grief in that. And then entered a relationship, entered a depression really, then entered quickly a relationship with someone who lied about having cancer to cover up his drug addiction that I didn't know about. And I was conned out of thousands of dollars, left my job, left my apartment and found myself. I had my on the. I wasn't on the bathroom floor. I was on my bedroom floor in the fetal position crying. And like, how did I get here? How did I end up here? And I was 31 at the time. So it was also right around the time where my friends were all like, Getting married and having babies, and I just. I hated myself and the choices that I had made to get me there, because that was the point where I realized I had tolerated a lot of BS and was not listening to my intuition on so many different level. So that was really my rock bottom and where I slowly started to pick myself up. I mean, the heavens didn't open up at that moment, and everything came out flowery and positive. It's been, like you said, a 10, 11 year journey now at this point. And I just decided, though, in that moment that I had to change my life. And what that started with was taking responsibility and really shining the light on things that weren't working for me anymore.

I love your honesty. You say that you start, you went to see a therapist, and you basically went in there, sat down, and was like, okay, let's get this over with. Like, give me an answer. How do I, you know, move through this?

How long is it going to take me to recover from this? That's what I asked her.

Right. And there it is. There's the. Oh, my gosh. Andrea outlines 14 behaviors in this book that are just. Oh, my. Guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. You know, like we like inner critic, numbing out compare and despair, self sabotage, people pleasing, approval seeking, perfectionism, blame, catastrophic thinking. I mean, raise your. If you don't confront these things on a regular basis.

And that was like my to do list that you just. Yeah.

And there you are in that moment, trying to control your healing and saying, okay, yeah, so what's the quickest way to healing here?

Yeah, I was proud of myself for going to therapy and like, being ready and open to healing, but I wanted. I wanted an itinerary of it.

And what have you learned now? So now when? When I mean. Well, actually before that it would be, how do you pull yourself out of this shame spiral? I know you did Brene Brown's daring greatly certification as well. So you've probably learned so much about this, even looking back in hindsight, but it can be so hard not to self blame and shame ourselves when things go haywire like that. Especially when in relationships you do feel like, okay, I'm half of the equation here, or I'm the common denominator that all of these relationships have in common.

Mm. That was quite a journey. And, you know, to add fuel to the fire, my husband left me for another woman. And not only was she younger than me. Yeah, they were having a baby. They even got a dog together. Like, it was bad and it. So of course I went down the Compare and despair. And if I had been. If I had had bigger boobs, if I was younger, if I was prettier, if I was all of these things, it's all my fault. And then I entered that other horrible relationship. Had I been smarter, you know, like, I went to college, I have a science degree, like I should than this. And it was. A lot of it was humiliation. I was so ashamed of where I was, and I didn't really even start to heal from that until years later. And it was just. It was embarrassing as well. And I wrote about this in the introduction. Like, I could feel the discomfort of other people around me. Like, they didn't even know what to say. And people were saying the wrong things. And bless their hearts, you know, it was really bad. So I don't entirely blame them, but it was. I mean, the shame was something I had never experienced before and that I will, to answer your question, it was a long journey of, again, looking at everything and then also, yes, learning specifically about shame resilience. I'll tell you what, when I went and got that certification with Brene Brown and her senior faculty, I kind of half joke that it flipped me upside down and shook all the change that was buried in the bottom of my pockets because.

And metaphorical change.

Right, Right. I had done a lot of work on. And it was like more layers. I felt like I was getting to, like, the heart of the onion, where, like, the big chunks were coming out. And it was rough and it was humbling and.

Really brought me to. I mean, for lack of a better term, it brought me to my knee, to my knees, and just like, okay, this is what surrender looks like when you're doing this type of work.

What was the most challenging stuff that came from that?

To be honest, it was. And if anyone's read Rising Strong, one of Brene Brown's books, she talks about day two. And what that's referring to is when she does that, her training. Day two is the day that we get with that we walk into the shame stuff. And the training was really interesting because we were at the same time being trained to be facilitators and doing the work ourselves. So it was sort of like this bounce back and forth. And I think that they did that on purpose to see if we had the resiliency to be able to juggle both of those things. And the story that came out of that, that was so pivotal for me.

Great product placement, Andrea. Thank you.

Was a story. Was something that happened when I was 20 and I was.

I was Date raped. And it's still kind of hard for me to say that out loud because it was a moment in time where I had too much to drink. I was attracted to this person. He was not my boyfriend, but we were flirting heavily, and, you know, the makeout started, and then I basically had put myself willingly and consensually in that position and then didn't want to go any further and said no over and over and over again. But never fought him off me, Never. I basically consented to get it over with because I was afraid of being labeled approved. I was afraid of him fighting back. I was afraid. I was afraid of 17 different things, which I'm sure, you know, many women listening can relate to this story. And.

At that point, it was 19 years had gone by, and I had always kind of pooh poohed the story and just been like, oh, that guy was a jerk, you know, whatever. And that story came out, Jenny, like projectile vomit in this group that I was in of 10 other beautiful people also sharing their shapes stories. And I was not expecting that. I was not. And it was my intuition that was saying, this is the story you have been holding on to since you were 20 years old. I just got goosebumps because it's still.

I had blamed myself for so long, and it was my body remembered. And it was trauma is what it was. Because a lot of times shame work is trauma work. So that. Let's just jump into the deep end of the pool. Right. Which is what I like to do.

What I love about you, Andrea?

Yeah, I don't. I don't, you know, I don't pull any punches. But, yeah, that's what happened. And that was probably the biggest thing that came out of that weekend, was that story and coming home and reaching out to a couple of my closest friends to witness that story. And I was crying and telling it to people that I trusted, and I have written about it since then, and it was a pretty big deal.

Yeah. How do you start to excavate that? Because excavating that can be so scary. To confront that, to feel it in your body, to release all that emotion that you and your body have been carrying for so long. And as you say in the book, you know, it's so much easier to want to numb out, whether it's with food, alcohol, social media, anything.

I did that for 20 years. That was really looking back at the timeline of my life. I also had two other big life moments that happened within the two years before that. So my parents got divorced, and it Was a surprise to me. I didn't even know they were ever having problems. They suddenly announced it, and I had an abortion my senior year of high school, which I did not know if that was the right choice I want. Wanted to make. And so, you know, I mean, my prefrontal cortex hadn't even fully formed by then yet. And these major life things are happening. I did not grow up in a family where we talked about the hard stuff, like many people listening probably. And so I didn't know what to do with all of this grief and confusion and frustration and rage. Really. I had rage. It was not anger. It was rage. So when that happened to me, did.

You know it was rage at the time, or is it only now that you live?

It was a few years later where I would have ragey moments to my boyfriend. You know, we were in that relationship for a long time, and I was taking everything out on him. So he would do something to me that wasn't very nice. And I would. I would go into these rages, and it was scary, and I didn't know where it was coming from. I labeled myself as just an angry person. I thought I was just an angry human. And what ended up happening is that I. That happened to me. And that was really the beginning of my unraveling. I can see now looking back, I was like, oh, that's when my severe codependence started. That's when my love addiction started. And in that moment when that happened to me, my core belief that was created then was that my voice doesn't matter and that I don't matter. And I know that that's where all that came from.

That's so powerful to look back and you're naming things that I think we all. It's very hard to see. I just did a. I just dove into all the codependency books this year, and I kind of knew, like, they were waiting for me. And I didn't want to admit it, and I didn't ever want to read them. I was just like, ugh, enough self help already. But that was because what was buried under there was big stuff. And I dreaded those books. I can't just can't even tell you. And then I was, like, forced myself. Like, this is a huge blind spot. These blind spots end up controlling and affecting every single thing we do. If you don't look at them, that's the messed up thing about them. It's like you want to just avoid them. Things like codependent behavior, codependency, it Seems like, no, no. If I just don't lift up the rug, like, it'll be fine. You know, then the rug doesn't.

That was my family's motto.

Yeah, I mean, me too. Like, oh, as you've known me for 10 years, we both have such similar, if not stories. We just have similar coping mechanisms. Codependency, control, perfectionism, people pleasing. And I love you even said this line, you said your own therapist had to remind you 1473 times. You are not responsible for other people's feelings.

Yeah.

And I love your humility and admitting, like, okay, it took 1472 times. You know, who's counting?

Yeah.

Like, we all. So I would love for you to. To just share where you've. Where you've reached with this, because with all of these 14 behaviors, and we will dig into some more of them, but.

It'S so hard not to want to say, like, okay, check, fixed. But they do keep showing up and even studying them. You've been in therapy. You've been going through so much. You're so. So what? You're such a wonderful human who's just honest and authentic and kick ass. And yet I love. It's so comforting, actually, to read like, okay, you know, you still go through these things. So what have you found, let's say, with codependency and people pleasing. What helps you when you catch yourself falling back into those? Even now I think that I use.

Them as red flags now I use them as information. And you know, one of my favorite mantras now is I do use the one like, well, that just happened. We were talking about that before. Like, that's what I use that one. And I also use. Well, that's interesting. I mean, even for things like, I knew I had gained weight. I don't own a scale here. Like, I knew I had gained weight. And I went to the doctor and it wasn't even. It was the pediatrician for my kid. And we were in the waiting room, and I'm like, I'm gonna weigh myself just to see. And it had been years. And I got on the scale and I saw the number and it was course higher than it was the last time I weighed myself. And I said, well, that's interesting. So it's like I use those. Those are some of my favorite mantas. Just kind of on a side note. But anytime I notice that I'm engaging in. I do. I'm. I'm. I can be really controlling with my husband. Like, I want him to do the kids homework a certain way. He just took over. We're splitting up the laundry now because for the longest time I would do it, and now I'm like, nope, I work the same amount of hours as you do.

You're gonna take over some of it. And he. And he did, absolutely. But he doesn't do it the way. And I found myself micromanaging it. And to me, that is a red flag that there's something else going on that I need to look at. Sometimes I don't know what it is, and I'm not attached to figuring it out right away because that can take me on a whole nother rabbit hole of trying to control. But sometimes I do know what it is. Sometimes I feel disconnected from him and it's making me uncomfortable. So I want to do these other things in order to ease that pain that I'm feeling. Or I'm stressed out about work and therefore I am micromanaging. My husband folds socks. So it's. Again, I just. I use it as. I try to use it as information.

Yeah, I love the new. The neutrality of saying, well, that just happened, rather than, you idiot, how could you do this? Or how could you do it again? There's so much to talk about on. On all of this stuff, and I'm kind of fascinated by this topic of spiritual bypassing because it is such a tricky, slippery thing. The difference between, man, it's on me. Like, Michael and I, my partner and I joke that my mantra for the first six months I'd been reading all this Byron, Katie, like, no matter what was going on, I'd be like, it's on me. It's on me. Like, if I was upset, you know, and it. And I'm glad I did that. It actually changed the game. I mean, we're in the best relationship either of us has ever had because I started to own all those patterns and all those things that were affecting every previous relationship. And yet it can be tricky when stuff comes up not to go into the constant self fixing or overanalyzing, I think you call it. Same thing.

Like the over identification. Yeah. Yes.

And over examining. So how do you strike that balance between, you know, elevating yourself and like spiritualizing everything and like, oh, just be grateful versus feeling the feelings.

I don't know if I have it easier than this because I definitely have friends and, and clients who overanalyze everything and they want to label everything and I tell them to put their label makers away. You know, is this good? Is this bad? Is this. This is this behavior? And. And I Personally, I get tired of personal development sometimes. Like.

Like, I'm. I'm. I love having. You know, I know there's a lot of us who, like, hate small talk sometimes I love small talk. Like, sometimes I love talking about, like, what do you watch on Netflix? Like, cool.

Yeah, I can get into what apps are on your phone, what do you watch, what podcasts do you listen to? But I'm with you so much of the rest of it. Like, please, no, I just can't right now.

Yeah, I know for me, if I get. I feel like I get to get fatigued from all of the thinking about it, and I just know I need to take a break, and that's what I do. So I don't know if I have some kind of chip, DNA chip that makes it a little bit easier for me to walk away from the overanalyzing. Or maybe it's just from sheer exhaustion of doing it for so many years.

One thing that you recently did was go on an unfollow frenzy on Instagram. I'm going to read this little passage because it will give you all a flavor for Andrea's great writing style. I just love it. Andrea says, I stopped following, bypassing my inner critic, knowing full well the future of my physical, of my total physical and mental health was not dependent on Ms. Bendy Six Pack von Instagram.

Tell me, tell me your process, because I think so many people struggle. I would say if there is a struggle with social media, it's probably two things. Keeping up with the sheer inundation and number of notifications we're all getting all the time. And then that compare and despair rabbit hole. So what led you on your unfollow frenzy?

It was sparked by, you know, scrolling through my Instagram feed and seeing.

Video after video and image after image of these. It was the same woman over and over again. It wasn't the same account, but it was the same type of woman. You know, she was thin, she was blonde. She was.

She had, like, super colorful patterned yoga pants.

Yeah, she was a tan. She did these yoga moves that I don't even aspire to do that. Like, that's not even what I want to do. And I think it's beautiful when other people do it. It's like art to me. But I was starting to feel not great about myself. And.

The funny part about it was I had a moment of panic and, you know, when I'm like, oh, forget it. I'm just going to unfollow all these people and just follow, like, Richard Simmons. And.

I was like, oh, my gosh. But if I unfollow them, then I'm never going to get to my fitness levels. It was like this ridiculous voice in my head. And so I just. I think I tell that story to highlight how, again, how social media can.

I did it so I could be inspired is what I'm trying to say. And that was not inspirational to me. It was making me feel like crap. And so I unfollowed them all and then had this moment of panic of if I unfollow them, then I will surely be totally out of shape. And, oh, God, it was just the insanity of it all made me laugh. And that was the story of it. So I did. I unfollowed all of them.

The other thing is, now these cliches are so. They're used all the time, like, don't compare your something to everyone else's highlight real. Or don't compare your insides to everyone else's outside. And it's weird because I think we've all heard that. But then you describe an anecdote in the book as well. Like a picture flashed before your feed of one of your friends and she was off traveling in London and had no kids. And. And it's like we in a second will tell a whole story about that person's life and what it means for our life and how are we doing and. And so how. How is that? I mean, is social media just designed to do this like, that? Sometimes I feel like I'm just not powerless to resist. But I really don't enjoy spending a lot of time on the feed for this exact reason. Just because it's such a mental, like, it's like going to the mental gymnastics just.

Well, yeah. And I want to make it really clear that I think we hear over and over again to, like, stop comparing. And I just. I think that it is. It's just like the whole, like, don't judge. Like, we all do it. We judge, we compare. It's what we do. And it's an unfortunate thing that we compare. Our mutual friend Jonathan Trohan was just talking about this on social media, how he was so surprised, like, when his son was born, they immediately put him into categories and were comparing him to all the other infants as far as his height and weight. You know, it's sad that we do this in our culture and it is just the sad reality of it. So I don't want anyone listening to think that the key to their happiness is to stop completely comparing the major Win is that you are catching yourself when you're comparing and making a different choice. So, like, for that story that I told in the book is, yeah, I went. It was Gabby Bernstein, by the way.

She was like, who I think is amazing, and she was, like, traveling to London, and I was like, oh, my God, I'm never going to have that kind of career. And she probably, like, goes to the spa and, you know, eats this incredible food, and. And I caught myself so quickly in that moment and told myself, like, okay, well, that just happened. And that's what I want for everybody just to be able to shut it down so quickly that you realize that you're doing it, and you can not even to tell yourself positive affirmation. So I didn't go and say, like, cheerlead myself and say, like, yes, I will if you do that. And you can believe it. And it feels good. Great. Go for it. I'll give you a fist pump, you know? But I wasn't there in that moment, and my BS meter would have been like, yeah, we don't think so. Just was like, okay, well, that just happened, and I'm gonna walk away and do something else or tell. If I actually called my friend Amy and told her what happened, I was like, oh, my God, I went down this rabbit hole. It was so ridiculous. And then we can laugh about it and. And move on. So, like, that's the win. That's huge.

That's one of the things I found, too. The win is getting faster at noticing when you're triggered. It's not to not ever get triggered again. It's to say, oh, there it is.

There it is.

There's that little voice.

Whoop, there it is. That's exactly what we want you to.

And, oh, man, if it doesn't still feel so uncomfortable.

It really does.

Oh, yeah. But I. My biggest one. My biggest one, that. That has reared its head this past year because I'm in the best relationship ever that I've ever had. It was like, is this insecurity of other women? It's not jealousy. It's not that I wish I was them, but it's like, oh, she's so beautiful.

Oh, this.

Oh, this. Like, this hyper vigilance about who everyone else was. And of course, Michael would be like, are you insane? You know, like, do you. Do you see how much I love you or how amaz you are? All these things. And in those moments, no. And when you're caught in the trigger of it, it's just this feeling that the sky is Falling. But when I can step back, it's like, oh, there it is, it's happening again. Oh, my inner six year old is coming out, or five year old, or the fear side of me. And what have you found for just noticing triggers more quickly? Do you think it's just experience or do you have a, a secret trick?

Well, I just, I think knowing them like you were saying, and I will say this too, and I wish I knew more brain science around it. So don't quot as like, you know, as being this being scientific. But I have heard around town that, you know, it's the old part of our brain that immediately sizes up other people, you know, and it's like, is this person good or bad? Are you dangerous? Are you someone I might mate with? Do you have food? So, you know, it's like this primitive part of us where I think that that is biological. And we do size up other women who are possible threats to our mate. I think it happens. So again, it's a matter of knowing what your triggers are. And we get to a certain age and we have all had our hearts broken, and those are old wounds that get reopened. And it's not anything that our partners are necessarily doing. Poor partners. You know, I can't tell you how many times I've had to apologize to my husband. It's less now because I notice it before I do it, where I have gotten irritated with him or even angry at something that he's done. And it's not. And it's my stuff. It's totally my stuff. I think so many arguments start that way. And so what's helped me tremendously is knowing my triggers. And this is actually something I've learned as a daring white facilitator, is if you take the different areas of your life. So like, let's just take relationships for example, because you brought that up, is to take a get out a piece of paper and write down your ideal and unwanted identities. So your ideal identities are. These are the ways that you want to be perceived, ideally by other, by your partner. And then we also have these unwanted identities, these ways that we would never in a million years want to be seen by our partner. Typically for women, we don't want to be seen as desperate, unattractive, needy, having a lot of issues. You know, the list goes on and on. It's personal for everyone. And those are your triggers because inevitably you're going to fall into those unwanted identities. Because unfortunately, we can't control how other people perceive us. We might act out or we might get judged or criticized. And that's where shame lives. And so instead of. Of practicing shame resilience, which is the work I do, we try harder to get to our ideal identities. We work out more. We, you know, like all these things to try. And that's where perfectionism lives. And it's this cycle, this never ending cycle that keeps going around and around instead of knowing. Knowing your triggers can change your life, y'. All. So get out a piece of paper, all the areas of your life, even if you just write down the ways that you would never want to be perceived in your career, in. With your appearance, in your relationships as a parent, all of those areas, and that will give you so much insight to where you get hooked.

Fascinating. Fascinating. Let's talk about boundaries, because I think boundaries are another, like the big. The B word.

Why are boundaries so hard to set, Andrea?

Oh, everyone to like us.

I know. And how do you. How have you gotten better at them over the years? Like, you share an anecdote of saying no to something professionally and not even feeling like you had to explain yourself. Yeah, boundary grad school talk.

Boundaries are so hard. I'm not gonna lie.

Why are these so hard? I think this is hardwired too, by the way. I think something about saying no and because I know for a fact, like being socially for a fact, but I don't have the science either. But that being socially ostracized is like, we have a greater fear of death, of being cast aside out of the social group because that also is necessary for survival. But why are they so hard? I was telling Andrea, sorry, little tangent, but I want to just keep it real on this show. I was in tears like five minutes before calling Andrea on Skype because people had been making requests and I'm feeling a little depleted. I had just come home from a trip. I'm leaving for another one, and just because I'm depleted. So these. These requests felt like personal insults, and I was just, like, angry at the people making them. And it's not their faul. They have no way to know. It just is obviously one of those red flags that I. It's time for me to say no and reset myself and recharge. But it's so hard. It feels horrible to set them sometimes, even if we know that it's necessary.

Boundaries are vulnerable. Like setting a boundary is one of the many vulnerable things that we do. And so when we're intentional about it, it's like we're intentionally putting ourselves out there and putting ourselves at risk. Because this goes back to what I was just talking about. So I'm sure that in your career you don't want to be seen as inflexible or unreasonable. You don't want to be seen as a bitch, hard to work with, like that type. Right. Is that fair?

Absolutely.

Okay, so when you have to tell people no, and you're setting a boundary about what you just described, you're running that risk because you don't have any control over what they're going to think of it. You don't have any control if they're going to receive those emails or phone calls and be like, well, not Jenny sure is, you know, God, she won't even do. They may be like, okay, that's fine. Or they may get upset about it. And so we know this typically at an unconscious level, and for many of us it's conscious, but that's why we avoid them, because we don't want to risk that at all, ever, ever. Because that puts us at risk. Definitely. There's a biological factor of it because you know the term burning bridges? If you burn that bridge, like you might die. You might not be able to be a part of that group anym. And so, yeah, our old brains are so weird how they're wired. But at the end of the day, what it comes down to, and I talk about this in the book too, is knowing what your values are and knowing what's important about the way you live your life and having those hard conversations in a way that makes you proud of who you are. I think boundaries get a bad rap too. And people might think of boundaries as being confrontational and disagreeable and, and oppositional. And that's not at all what they are. I don't want you to set a boundary with me like that. Communication 101, people are typically going to be open to hearing what you have to say. If you are kind and you are grateful and you are open to conversation, but still be firm about it. And that's what boundaries are. There's like a step by step process that I give in there. And I'm not going to say that it's easy, but it's nicer when you have some kind of template to work from.

Well, I like, I like that you say it isn't gonna be easy. I mean, maybe sometimes, but for the most part don't even expect it to be easy. Just expect that. Yeah, it's hard to say no. But I also. One thing that's super powerful that you say in the people pleasing section is that people pleasers tend to lie. They actually say yes to things they don't want to do. And so rather than being authentic and saying a kind and graceful no and. And doing everybody a favor, what people pleasers do is they say yes and then they resent it.

And then they get mad.

And then they get mad. And if they don't get mad in that moment. Gretchen Rubin talks about this in her new book of obligers. That obligers will sometimes, like, explode. They'll just shut down and completely go on protest of their entire life because they've said yes too much.

I've seen that with moms a lot. And yeah, in the work I do, we call that offloading hurt. Where. And it's called chandeliering, where someone will like, hit the roof. You see that in road rage. You see that it's sporting events, people fighting. And yeah, that's what a lot of times what that is.

What's one that you still struggle with.

In terms of boundaries or one of the habits?

Let's say one of the habits. One of the 14.

You know what one has been coming up is imposter syndrome. And you know what's funny is that when I wrote the book, I knew it was common for a lot of my readers. And if I had to look at all of them, I would say the zero fox mentality is probably not one that I struggle with as well as imposter syndrome. So then I have this new book coming out.

Ding, ding, ding.

Oh, totally. Like, it's. It's upper limit stuff too. And that's how it looks for me. And where. Not so much that I feel like that I feel like people are going to. A lot of people who struggle with imposter syndrome. For people listening who aren't familiar with it, it's feeling like a fraud. That feeling of when is everybody going to figure out I don't have any idea what I'm doing? That's not really how I feel. Like I'm secure in the fact that I do know what I'm doing and I feel confident in what I know. But for me, it's the things like when I had to shoot my video trailer or the video shoot where I had makeup and hair and nicer clothes and I'm like, oh my God, please nobody watch this video. Because it feels like it's that upper limit. Like, oh, I am at next. This is next level. And that's where I start to feel like a fraud. Like I don't belong here at this level. That's how imposter syndrome shows up for me. So, yeah, that's uncomfortable.

I can understand that. I also think there's a flip side. I'm curious to hear your thoughts that relates to what we were saying about Bendy Vaughn Instagram. Because I was recently getting hair and makeup done for the shooting this LinkedIn learning video series. And I remember telling the makeup artist, please do not put too much makeup. I want to look like myself. There are too many people that don't even look like themselves when we do this stuff. And part of me, I wore a dress, just a plain blue, like, something to look neutral on camera, and had hair and makeup. But there was a part of me that felt like, y', all, this is how I look five days a year.

Like the other 360. I am in yoga clothes right now. My hair is wet, it's up in a bun. I'm literally in yoga pants and a yoga shirt recording in a walk in closet. Yeah. What are you wearing? Wow, this just got like, X rated. What did you say? What did you say you were wearing?

I'm in sweats, too.

In sweats? Yeah. Think part of. I mean, I don't mean to be a bad empathizer. I want to come back to all those funny terms of what empathy is not. But I don't know, I wonder if some of our reaction is just not wanting to perpetuate also a myth of. Because we know what's on the other side of it.

Yeah. And to clarify, I think what, like, the. More of the story is that when I do these things, like photo shoots and video shoots, and it's all. All these things that are putting into place to pave the way for something bigger for me. And that's really where the imposter syndrome comes in, is like.

I kind of half joke that when I get uncomfortable in situations like that, I feel like someone trying to give a cat a bath. If you've ever tried to give a cat a bath in a bathtub, you know, it's just bad. The cat's trying to get out and, like, scratching. Like, that's how I feel in situations like that. And so, for instance, when my first book came. Came out several years ago, I did one book event, and it was in San Diego, my hometown, where I knew 95% of the people that were going to show up. It was comfortable for me. And looking back on that, the reason that I did that was because I felt like if I did multiple cities, I was both equally terrified that no one would show up. And that everyone would show up. So if everyone would show up, I was like, oh, my God, I have all these fears. And I just. It was. Again, it was that, like, new level, new devil. And that's what I was trying to avoid. Yeah. I don't remember who said that, so I can't give them credit. It was some author. But, like, every time we up level our life, many times the inner critic changes its story. And it's like, for many of us, I think, for probably many of your listeners have worked on the inner critic. So we don't have the feelings of, you're an idiot. You should never try this. Like, we've bypassed that. But what we hear is, ooh, who do you think you. You are? And. And that's how.

This is a little too big for you. This is.

Yeah. You might be. Not so much.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, yeah. You know, you definitely deserve everything that's come so far. But, ooh, this next opportunity, you really. I don't know.

Exactly. And that's. That's what I hear too. That's the narrative that I hear. And so. And it's just another level, and it's. It's wading through that. That's where I've been struggling. And it's funny because when, as this book, New book, approached, I sort of could see it coming because I saw it happen in. And I'm like, oh, I know what's coming. So I could kind of prepare myself for it and know that I needed to do the work, because before, it took me by surprise, and I hid for four months after my first book came out. It was too scary. It was too vulnerable. I couldn't handle all the love and praise and joy and everything. And with this book now I know it's coming. So I'm doing the work like, I am going and doing stuff that is scary. I'm gonna be so uncomfortable. My chest is gonna be all red and broken out. Like, I already know.

That used to happen to me too.

It's my physiological reaction to feeling so anxious and uncomfortable. And it's just about showing up, because I want to be on my deathbed and be proud of how I showed up, even if it was so incredibly uncomfortable.

I love it. That's the best. I found that's the best thing, too. It's not to reject any of these feelings. It's just to keep showing up.

Yeah. Ugh. Yes.

Andrea. Because I teased it. I want to just read this. I laughed out loud at the section. What Empathy is not the one upper. The Pooh pooer, the at least er, the fixer, the gasper or the make it about me. Can you just give us all, like, what. Show us, show us how to be empathetic listeners because we're probably all guilty of these things. Oh, totally.

I totally. I was probably the fixer. And. Yeah, so it's the person.

This book.

Yeah. Yes. Have you tried marriage counseling? Like, you know. Oh my gosh. Okay, so. So the gasper is the person who can't believe that you got yourself into that situation. And the pooh pooer is the person that tells you it wasn't that bad. So I should back up. If you share something with someone and a hard thing that happened, like, oh, I got this really bad review on Amazon and it was awful and they said these awful things about my book, there might be the person who tells you it wasn't that bad. The person who says, well, maybe you shouldn't have even written books if you didn't want people to criticize you. Then there might be the person who makes it about them or like, or. Or just like bypasses your story and tells you about something that happened to them that has nothing to do with your problem. And then the one upper is the person who is like trying to relate. And this is when this one can get tricky because there is one thing about relating and saying to someone, like, I have absolutely been there, but then it crosses the line when you say I've absolutely been there and let me talk about it for 30 minutes. So yeah, that, that is when someone shares something hard with us, it's uncomfortable for both parties. Right. Like if you shared with me something hard, I want to make you feel better. Partially because I care about you and partially because I am uncomfortable with your discomfort and I don't want to feel it.

And it can be so hard to know what to say. It just is. At least for me.

That's not a class that we take in college and although it should be, but now there's books out there about it and there's a couple of. I give a couple of examples, I think in my book. But I'll just not leave people empty handed. I'll just say, you could say, is. That sounds so difficult and I'm so glad you told me. That's it.

That's a great one. That's a great one. Andrea, I could truly talk to you about this all day long. All day.

Let's just make it like a six hour podcast every day, actually.

That'd be so fun. We'll just go Joe Rogan stuff style. Yes, Andrea, I see a part two to this where we do that. That'd be so fun.

I would love to. I would absolutely love to.

Recently, I've been asking people, what's one piece of homework that you would give to listeners so they. They put down their phone or wherever they're listening and they go do one thing. What would it be?

I would want them to rewind and go back to the part where I was talking about knowing what your triggers are. I'm not going to give them anything additional because it's, you know, overload. But that can change your life. Compartmentalize all of the areas of your life and then write down what your triggers are, what your unwanted identities are, how you would never want to be seen by other people. That would be just absolutely mortifying. Those are your triggers and know them inside and out. Because whether you know them or not, they're running your life. You are. You are behaving based on those unwanted identities so when you know them, you can get out in front of them faster. And that's what we were talking about earlier. That's the goal.

I love it. That's such a. Such a great piece of advice and not easy to do, folks. Nope, get ready.

Not what you signed up for. Listen to this podcast.

Totally. You're like, oh, now I have that gross, itchy feeling where it's like, damn it. I know she's right. Gotta go do it. I love it, Andrea. I love it. I love you. I'm so grateful for you and the work that you do and who you are in the world. Thank you for everything.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so grateful for this conversation and this friendship and all of you people listening, listening. And yeah, it's just. Let's just spend the next 20 minutes validating each other.

That sounds great. That sounds great. A little joy parade.

Perfect. Andrea, thank you so much. And big thanks to everyone who's here listening. It does feel vulnerable, right? Like I almost have a vulnerability hangover. Just once I stop hitting record. Like to know that this will go live.

Okay. But for real, though, Andrea, I'm sure I'll have you back back soon.

Thank you. I would love to be here. Thanks, everybody.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always Sam.