83: Pivot From Working in the Morgue to the Ministry with Former Forensic Pathologist Dr. Thomas Andrew

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Hello everybody. Welcome to the Pivot Podcast. I am so excited, intrigued and fascinated by today's guest. I have Dr. Thomas Andrew with us here today. He is the recently retired Chief Medical examiner for the State of New Hampshire. Dr. Andrew is board Certified in Pediatrics, Anatomic Pathology and Forensic Pathology and has performed over 5,800 autopsies for the purposes of investigating sudden, unexpected or violent death. Now you might wonder what this has to do with Pivoting other than perhaps the great Pivot into the afterlife, but I read in a New York Times article, it's called. As overdose deaths Pile up, a medical examiner quits the morgue. And I'll just read you a brief excerpt. After laboring here as the chief forensic patholog for two decades exploring the mysteries of the dead, Thomas Andrew retired in September to explore the mysteries of the soul. In a sharp career turn, he is entering a seminary program to pursue a divinity degree and ultimately plans to minister to young people to stay away from drugs. Tom, welcome to the show.

Hey, thanks for having me, Jenny. It's wonderful to be here.

I think that piece, I don't know how you felt reading it, but what a beautiful way to capture the work that you've done and the transition that you're entering, that after exploring the mysteries of. Of the dead, you're pivoting now into retirement and divinity school to pursue the mysteries of the soul.

I have Kit Seeley, the excellent reporter from the New York Times, to thank for this. She was extremely diligent and maintained tremendous fidelity to the story. She and I visited for another reason. She was interviewing a number of medical examiners up and down the Eastern Sea coast that had been impacted by the opioid crisis. And as we chatted, she, being the seasoned reporter that she is, sensed that maybe there was another story here that she could go with. And she pitched it to an editor who gave her the go ahead. And she spent several weeks.

Talking with me, visiting with me. She went to the morgue with me, as was obvious, and Todd Heisler, the photographer, lent his expertise and came up with some very evocative images. And the story gained a lot of traction, and it attracted far more attention than I ever dreamed it would.

That's what I found so interesting about your story, that because of the opioid crisis and New Hampshire has it possibly the most deaths in proportion to population than any other state, that you had a front row seat to all of the effects of that crisis. And can you tell me about the moment that you decided to pivot from working in the morgue when it was kind of too late to do anything towards something like divinity school?

Well, it's interesting that you put it that way, because the reality is that it wasn't one single blinding flash of penetrating insight. It was an evolution. I have long had a call to ministry, and I have long had the plan to retire at 20 years. I mean, when I was hired in 1997 and shortly thereafter, I made it very clear that my retirement date would be sometime in 2017, my deputy was made aware of that. When she joined me 17 years ago. But the call to ministry did evolve over time. I knew I wanted to do something in that area with that time that I had left after the 20 years in New Hampshire. But the opiate crisis certainly sharpened the focus of what I wanted to do. And that's what drew me to youth ministry and in particular, ministry within the.

Existing structure of the Boy Scouts of America. I've spent 20 years in New Hampshire, 30 years as a forensic pathologist, all told, given my experience in New York as well, cataloging the end of the line here, documenting the wastage that has occurred because of the crisis. But my pivot is to try and get in now on the front end of this. I realize that preventing opiate deaths is far, far more complex than a simple just say no approach. On the other hand, I do think that being in a youth serving organization that inst.

A really definable sense of value and.

Respect for one's own body, respect for others, respect for God is a place that I feel I can make a difference in terms of just preventing things before they get started.

I find it so interesting that you were clear even 20 years ago that you would do this work for 20 years, then retire, and that you had that, that feeling that you wanted to be part of the ministry someday. So it's interesting how, as you said, those seeds actually get planted much earlier in the process than what it might seem from the outside.

Oh, indeed they do. My father, my earthly father, that is.

Always thought that I would go into the ministry when I was a youngster growing up. But I was a science geek. You know, I really was fascinated by the life sciences in particular, and I really did feel a call to medicine. But at the same time, I did have a faith, a faith that was important to me, A faith that unfortunately, and.

To my shame, if you will, was sort of put on the shelf during those years when I had to do a lot of intensive study in science and medicine. But certainly once I was out and actually practicing the craft and the art of medicine and you see what you see on a day to day basis, those calls to ministry did come back and they've always been floating around even as my days as a pediatrician. This is actually a second pivot, if you will. My first career was as a pediatrician in Cincinnati, Ohio, and then I made the change to forensic pathology and that's what I've been doing for the last 30 years.

I'm so fascinated by the choice to go into forensic science. So let's come back to that. But first, I'm curious, how did your dad, why did he have the hunch that you would go into the ministry? What was it about you and your faith that went beyond kind of just being a churchgoing citizen to actually becoming a minister? What was it within you that wanted to minister others?

Well, I think he sensed that I, as opposed to other children that he was observing, seemed to be more engaged, asked more questions, just seemed to be more interested in it somehow. And.

I think that through that he always thought that there was something that was sort of burbling underneath the surface.

That I may have taken further someday. Unfortunately, he died when he was 56 and he is observing this process from elsewhere. But I think as he watches it, he's pretty proud.

I can imagine. And going into forensic science, 5,800 autopsies, I can't even begin to imagine what a day in your life is like and the cumulative effect of 20 years of this work. I'm just so curious how you decided to go into forensic pathology. And I don't know how you knew you'd be cut out for it, because, man, is that an intense job.

Well, I do think that you do have to find out early in the course as to whether or not this is something that you can acclimate to and actually do as a career over time. This is one of the reasons why there are only 400 full time practitioners of forensic pathology in all of the United States. It's not a popular specialty and we are extremely short of skilled forensic pathologists. We need 1,000 new forensic pathologists yesterday. And unfortunately, the American Board of pathology only sat 27 young people this year for the certifying examination. In forensic pathology, those numbers are not sustainable. Our average age is in the mid-50s. We're not replacing ourselves. But it's largely, I do believe, because of the nature of the work, of course.

Yeah. I mean, what do you think it takes to be able to do this job?

Well, all of us are gifted in different ways, of course, but I do think that in order to do this over a long period of time, you have to find that comfortable middle ground of disengaging from the humanity of the person at hand at the time that you're doing the examination and focusing specifically on the questions that need to be answered. And in particular, the family that is waiting for that call after the autopsy who are desperately seeking those answers and focusing like a laser beam on the task and front of you. By the same token, right after that's over and that person is gone from.

Your sight and your hands to re engage with that person's humanity and try to convey that caring and that empathy to the family who's on the other end of the phone. After all, we're physicians, we're not technicians. And there is a definite place for compassion and empathy. Not with the decedent, it's too late for them, but certainly for their families. And I think if you can thread that needle, and many can, if you can thread that needle, you'll probably be successful.

In forensic pathology. I do think that regardless of where you're at in your career, if you find that one or the other of those ends of the spectrum is problematic, for example, you simply cannot disengage from the humanity that is in front of you on the table. Table, it's time to leave. And by the same token, if you cannot call on your sense of compassion and empathy in dealing with others and you're starting to get rather callous and jaded in the work that you're doing, then it's also time to leave.

I love what you said about finding the humanity, just that word, and then also in staying focused one on the task at hand, but also on the family who is looking for answers and how you can serve them. Because I'm curious to know, your faith and your optimism and outlook on life must get tested. Looking at 5,800 bodies, especially the ones that didn't die of natural causes. So how did you maintain your center doing this work and seeing kind of sometimes the dark side of humanity that.

Comes obviously from outside the office. And I do think again, in order to succeed in this field for very long, you do have to have those outside supports. Now, for the majority of us, the vast majority of us, and by us, I mean forensic pathologists, those outlets are wholesome and appropriate. Family, faith, your hobbies, whatever it is that you like to do to, you know, completely disengaged from the.

Just mayhem that you see on a day to day basis, those are incredibly important. If you can't do that, then you end up with more problematic coping mechanism, whether it be drugs or alcohol, or it gets to you in the form of depression. So you need to have very, very healthy and wholesome outlets to dissipate what you're seeing on a day to day basis. Without it, you will fail.

How did you decide to go into forensic science in the first place given that it would require so much of you outside of the office?

Well, for that I have to thank some teachers that I had in medical.

During the second year of medical school, you take a pathology course, a general pathology course. And in Cincinnati, I had six hours of lecture in forensic pathology. And I thought, oh, this is really fascinating, but I was very, very strongly committed to pediatrics at that time. But then I foolishly took an elective in forensic pathology during my senior year and really, really got interested in it. By the same token, I remained committed to pediatrics. I had matched at Children's Hospital Medical center in Cincinnati, which tremendous program. It's an excellent tertiary care pediatric hospital. And went through, I did the entire residency. I was chief resident of pediatrics there, co chief with two other great, great pediatricians, Gary Weisenberger and pat Carolyn in 86, and then went out into private practice. And it was then out in private practice that the light went on. I realized that the cases that really engaged my intellect were pediatric cases that interfaced with forensic medicine. Things like child abuse and neglect, sudden unexpected infant death, consumer product safety issues, things like pool safety, car safety, just safety in the home, et cetera. So I contacted the person that gave those lectures way back in medical school. And fortunately he remembered who I was and encouraged me, gave me great counsel, and I ended up up doing another residency in pathology and ultimately relocating to New York City to join this person who became my mentor in forensic pathology, and that was Charles S. Hirsch, who by that time was chief medical examiner in New York City.

I can imagine New York City was probably an intense and varied place to start doing this work.

Indeed it was. But I am an immersion learner. That's why I think I did well in Cincinnati in pediatrics. It's a huge tertiary medical center for children, and I'm not one to absorb material particularly effectively reading a book or going to the library or watching a video or something of that nature. I have to get in and be hands on. I learned pediatrics by immersion in Cincinnati, and certainly I learned forensic pathology by immersion in New York City.

It's so. It's. What an interesting. I love your take on it, or just your approach of just immersive learning. And I don't watch a lot of these CSI shows or whatnot, but I can imagine. Okay, I can imagine your friends and family must ask. You probably like doctors get the question of, is it like Grey's Anatomy? But are you doing a lot of investigations, like as part of the work? Does it involve kind of cracking the case or is that for someone else and you're mostly reporting on the science or what you're seeing?

Right. That varies quite a bit from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In Miami Dade county, for example, they're quite famous for sending the doctors out to all of the scenes. That's not the way I necessarily trained in New York. We went out on scenes when there was a specific need for the doctor's eyes on a scene. And that's what I brought to New Hampshire over the years as our investigative staff became much more experienced and well trained and could be, could be trusted, quite frankly, I went to fewer and fewer scenes.

And when did it become clear to you that the opioid crisis was accelerating at such a rapid clip from within the work that you were doing? Because we see it, I see it in the news, and it is such an. Becoming such an epidemic. But how was your experience of seeing this rise over the last several years?

Well, you've hit a nerve there, Jenny, because I think this is a very sad and frustrating, frustrating story for me.

As early as 2004, 2005, we tried to gain the attention of policymakers, movers and shakers who could steer.

Basically policy and administrative rules and so forth that we were having a problem with opiates in the state. And at that time they were primarily prescription opioid drugs. For several years in a row, the leading cause of drug deaths in New Hampshire was actually methadone. But we were seeing deaths due to methadone, oxycodone, hydrocodone, those sorts of things. And we tried to raise the alarm about that.

Didn't seem to gain much traction. And at one point in the mid part of that first decade of the 2000s, I imprudently said to a reporter that at this rate, drug deaths will exceed traffic deaths in New Hampshire. And that upset a fair number of people thought it was an irresponsible comment to make. But indeed, by 2008, I believe drug deaths did indeed exceed traffic deaths in New Hampshire. As a matter of fact, it was one of the first 18 medico legal jurisdictions in the United States where that occurred. Of course, the nation followed some years later. I think it was 2009 or so where we started to see that flip throughout the United States. And now it's well known that drug deaths dramatically exceed traffic deaths every year in the United States. So we couldn't get attention then. But then the next problem was the emergence of heroin. This happened probably, oh, 2010, 2011. We had many, many people who were habituated, addicted to opiates. They became very expensive to try and get on the street. It was risky to try and divert pharmaceuticals, and the entrepreneurial spirit of criminal enterprises stepped in and they were providing very, very cheap and very, very potent heroin to these individuals. Because of the potency, we saw higher death rates back in the 60s and 70s. Street heroin rarely exceeded much more than about 40 to 60%, depending on the jurisdiction you were in. But this heroin.

Was almost always over 90%, sometimes over 95% pure. So we saw death rates increasing rather dramatically due to heroin. But the wheels really came off at the end of 2012 into 2013. That's when we got the first report.

Of a death due to the combination of fentanyl and heroin.

As it turns out, it wasn't pharmaceutical grade fentanyl. It was an analog of fentanyl. And that's what really has caused the skyrocketing of deaths, at least in New Hampshire. And as far as I can tell, all up and down the Eastern seaboard, these analogs of fentanyl are extremely potent, of magnitude more potent than heroin. And even in people who are not using for a long time, they risk death because of the extreme potency of these agents. And that's what finally has gotten everybody's attention. And now we're finally all talking in a multidisciplinary way, not in separate silos anymore.

And what is fentanyl?

Fentanyl, on the pharmaceutical side is a wonderful drug. I mean, you're talking about 250,000 or more people in the United States who are suffering every day from chronic unremitting pain. And for them, effective pain medications are still opiates and opioids. I mean, that's the scientific reality of things. Now.

Hopefully there is going to be a very, very strong focus going forward on alternative methods of doing.

By doing that, I mean, controlling pain. But pharmaceutical grade fentanyl is a very potent narcotic, analgesic, pain reliever that's roughly about 20 times more potent than morphine. Morphine is the active ingredient in heroin. Heroin becomes morphine in the blood. So fentanyl is about 20 times more potent than that. But what we're seeing on the street are fentanyl analogs. As I said before, these are largely produced either in China or they're produced produced in Mexico using raw materials that are imported from China. And they package looks like heroin. There's nothing to distinguish it to the naked eye from heroin. And they're using the existing infrastructure that already was there for heroin to distribute these fentanyl analogs. The analogs are anywhere from 100 to 200 to 500 times more potent than morphine. And by analog, I just mean the chemists there are playing around with the chemical profile of the drug. They're moving.

Different methyl groups and hydroxyl groups, if you will, around.

The basic ring of the fentanyl structure.

Something that you've probably read or heard about. Carfentanil is upwards to 10,000 times more potent than morphine. So this is a recipe for disaster. Initially the users didn't. They had no idea what they were buying. They thought they were buying heroin. But that's not a secret you can keep for very long.

Everybody knows they're getting fentanyl now. As a matter of fact, there's a certain cachet about the potency of it. If they hear that so and so died in such and such. Well, that's the stuff that I want. I want the really good stuff. So that's sort of the perverse nature sometimes of drug addiction.

Well, it's wild to hear about this interplay between prescription drugs then being adapted to street drugs. But 10x100x and then the prescription drugs are already 10 or 100xing what was on the street. So it's just man. And how do you. I get kind of not kind of very angry at prescription drug companies sometimes around these issues. I appreciate your perspective that these pain relievers are helping people who really need it. I'm curious if you know anything about medicinal marijuana of how that relates or it's just. I don't know. I wonder if there's a just prescription drugs that seems like it is fueling so much of the crisis and people. I don't know if you've seen, there's a documentary on hbo, but they profiled a couple teenagers who. One had gotten in a car accident and one was a soccer player and broke his leg. And because they were given oxycontin.

To heal, they were then addicted to heroin for the rest of their life.

I think another great resource, if you haven't seen it or read it yet, Jenny, is a book called Dreamland that's really worth your while to take a look at to document.

The rise of the overuse and I do think I can use that word fairly now, the overuse of opiates in terms of managing.

Routine pain. Opiates are excellent drugs for the management of chronic unremitting pain. There isn't too much that's much more effective than that. But we have an entire generation now of physicians who were quite frankly miseducated.

About the use of opiates. And that's where you ended up with young people having their wisdom teeth out and Being sent home with 30 or 60 tablets of Percocet.

Looking at this in retrospect, it's insane. You wondered how it possibly could happen. But that's where the pharmaceutical companies and their powerful influence in medical education, in legislative lobbying.

Are being called to task now in 2017. It's a little bit of the cow out of the barn at this point, but at least there I think that that white hot light of attention is being placed on them now. And so the onus is on them to do the right thing.

And do you think doctors because being miseducated or let's say yes, that was in practice when they were going through medical school. But it seems now, it seems almost irresponsible for them to prescribe these painkillers for when it's not so necessary. And I, I've had friends go into the hospital several times over the last year and it's still getting handed out like candy, you know. Oh, do you need this? Oh, here, take this. They practically make you take these really intense painkillers on your way out where you're still barely even conscious from waking up from the surgery. So I guess what I'm wondering is like, why aren't more doctors. I know you don't have to speak for everyone, but it just seems irresponsible not to wake up to that now, regardless of their training.

I do think you will see a change in that trend sooner rather than later. Many, many more states are instituting. I know New Hampshire has, has instituted a separate and required opiate training module as a requirement for licensor renewal for prescribers and particularly prescribers who have a DEA license to prescribe controlled substances. So the re education effort is underway. However, this is going to be a generational change. This is going to have. The biggest change is going to have to come from the physicians who are in training now. It is not something that you can reverse on a dime in terms of the practitioners that are out there now.

Thank you for indulging my questions around this. I want to come back to you and you're right in the middle of, of this big pivot to this next phase of your career. I'm curious at the time of this recording, you're just a couple weeks, if not a month or so away from starting seminary school. So what has it been like transitioning out of the morgue from your day to day?

Well, that is a work in progress, Jenny. I'm still trying to deal with the lack of structure that day to day job brought. I have maintained my private consulting practice. I am trying to stay current in forensic medicine. I will attend the seminars and the meetings. I will maintain my continuing medical education because I do think I still have something to contribute on that end. But I also have to be disciplined and avoid mission creep and not take on too much of that because the amount of study that's going to be required for this Master's of divinity degree is not insignificant. My first class starts in January and I got an email last week from the professor with the pre course reading and it involves three entire books as well as 12 to 15 or so original sermons by John Wesley. So he's the founder of Methodism. So. So it's going to be pretty intense being a student again after being in front of the classroom for over 30 years now, sitting in the classroom and absorbing all of this new material, which is a very, very different way of thinking than scientific education.

I have a feeling you're going to have a lot of fun being in this student role again.

I'm already having a blast because I got that those pre reading or pre class reading assignments and just getting into them and diving into it and seeing all the new and exciting material that's there. And I guess you have to be a divinity geek to find it exciting, but I do. It's really, really very, very invigorating on.

The subject of learning and being a student of life. And now divinity school. Looking back on 20 years and 5,800 autopsies, you know, the times, as it said, the ministry of the soul, what did you learn? Like as you reflect on this 20 years, what did you learn about humanity, soul, life, death? I know, it's a huge question.

It is a huge question and it's a question that obviously I'm embarking on a search for an answer of. However, what really has impressed me me is the resiliency that people have. And I think the seminal episode for me, and it's one that I'll never forget as long as I live, it was having performed an autopsy on a 7 year old boy who died suddenly and unexpectedly while playing basketball. And obviously this came completely out of the blue, but this was one of those rare instances where on the day of the autopsy itself, you had the ant. He had an undiagnosed heart defect. There was no way anybody could know that he had this. No one was to blame. But the autopsy revealed the defect and I called his father.

To go over the results with him. And here is this man.

In the midst of the worst day of his Entire life. It had to be. I can't. I can't begin to put myself in his shoes.

In the midst of our conversation, he said, I can't understand how you do this every day. How are you doing? How are you coping with this? My goodness, did that knock me off my chair? Even as I recount it to you today, it's hard for me to understand where he found that inside of himself. Now I suspect I know where. But my goodness, talk about the resiliency that faith can provide. Now, I'm not saying that's the only way. And I understand that people have a lot of different worldviews. I get that. But that's one thing that I have taken away from all these years of doing that. The people who have a strong set of beliefs, whatever those sets of beliefs are.

That they're rooted in those. Those are the people that have that resilience, can cope with these incredible tragedies that occur in every family, across every socioeconomic line, across every racial line. We're all going to die. But how that crisis is faced, I think depends a lot on.

What you have put into your heart and your mind. Going into it, kind of an anchor. I have seen people just completely decompensate. So I think resiliency is the thing that I have learned about and want to capture and want to cultivate as a person working on the other end of this.

Now, that is so beautifully said. Truly, what an incredible story. And the way you've put it is just.

Beautiful. And it sounds like what you're saying is resiliency. Yes. And the empathy that that man expressed, that he could put himself in your shoes even on the worst day of his life, how could he do that? No. And you said you had a feeling how he could. And was that feeling that he had the faith of the practices, the core that sustained him is that you're getting.

That's absolutely my guess. And, you know, I was in the public sector, and I could not freely talk about spiritual things with people on the phone. I mean, that all it would take.

That's so interesting. I'll put a pin in it. We'll come back to it. It is sad. Yes. Continue.

Sorry to interrupt, but, you know, one had to be very cautious because all it would take would be, you know, one, you know, displeased person to call whoever. And then there's this brouhaha. But when the door was opened on the other end of the phone and it was clear that I was dealing with a person of faith, then that conversation took a very, very different and more comforting turn for both the recipient of the call as well as myself, quite frankly. But.

In the hyper secularized age that we live in now, you have to be very cautious about that.

I love what you said about how regardless of your religious affiliation, it's what you put into your heart over time, it's how you cultivate your inner world, your philosophy, your faith of any kind. And it's so interesting to hear you say that, because I come kind of was hesitant at the beginning of even doing this podcast or writing my books to include any kind of spirituality at all. And yet those are the practices that sustain me when I talk about career pivots. What's not in my book is all of the spiritual practices. You know, I snuck some of them in. But, you know, it's true that I think we've kind of bounced so far in one direction that people feel we need to check that part of ourselves at the door. And in your case, working for the government, in some ways, ways, you did have to until you got an opening, because as you said, if you're also dealing with people who are at their worst moments of their lives, they're not going to be necessarily. They may want someone to take it out on, you know, so you say one wrong thing. But then on the other hand, when they're. When it is possible to bring in this deeper dimension, how much it can open up connection and healing between two people.

That's right. It's a fine line to tread, but.

Fortunately it hasn't tripped me up yet.

And I have a feeling, I mean, you're just going to be so great at what you do in this next phase. Do you see yourself. How do you see yourself applying? You don't have to know yet. That's what pivot's all about. You only have to know your one next step. But how do you see yourself applying your ministry?

Well, you know, I still have. I live here in New Hampshire. I'm an avid hiker along with my wife, and I have been plugged into scouting for many, many years. I was a youth member, and I've been an adult scouter volunteer for the entire time that I've been here in New Hampshire. And while I still have that health aspect going for me.

The role that I see within the Boy Scouts of America is being the professional chaplain for the Daniel Webster Council, which encompasses all of the state of New Hampshire. And that involves not just presiding over ceremonial things, which is a very secondary function. I think the primary function of a Chaplain is to be a presence, a listening presence, a safe place for a young person who might be struggling with one issue or another to.

Try and seek some solutions for that or at least some direction as to how to handle that particular crisis of faith or ethics or morals or whatever it may be.

Preachers do a lot of talking. Chaplains do a lot of listening. There's a very different sort of role that's played by a chaplain, and the chaplain is also doing extension ministry. It's outside the four walls of a church. So it's got on the trail, on the campsite, at an event like a camporee or a jamboree or a Pinewood Derby, you're right in the thick of the scouting activities.

To do the work that you're doing. You're not.

This sort of dour presence that says you can't do this or you can't do that. You're part of the fun. Hopefully.

As a corollary to that activity. And this might be biting off more than I can chew, but the United Methodist Church has a very active Appalachian Trail ministry. The Appalachian Trail, which is a storied trail in the United States, runs from Springer Mountain in Georgia all the way up to Katahdin Mountain in Maine. And it happens to run through 11 different annual conferences of the United Methodist Church. One of the Southern conferences established a major ministry, and they have a chaplaincy that serves on the Appalachian Trail. And I hope to be involved with that someday as well.

How fun. It's incredible to see how your unique and varied expertise and interests are all converging in this moment.

It's not an accident, is it?

Right, right. Like pediatrics, forensic science, even hiking and ministry, how it can all come together. And you're such a beautiful example of it's so uniquely you. You know, of the 8 billion people on this planet, there are not many who would have that exact intersection of interest.

I think you're right on point, Jenny. And that's why I personally find it to be a God thing.

Yes, I'm with you completely. It does seem so divinely ordained. Just how you're creating has carried you at every step and how you've shown up for it with, I can tell, just such heart and compassion and warmth given a really tough role.

Well, that's half the battle, isn't it? Just showing up and be willing to say yes.

Tom, I can't thank you enough. I just find you so inspiring, and this has been truly wonderful. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your heart with of you all. All of us. Where can people reach out to you if they want to, or keep in touch? Is there anywhere for them to go?

I have a website called whitemountainforensic.com it is still relatively in its infancy, but over the course of time, as people do reach out, as they are starting to do, I might. Well, I'm not might. I'm strongly considering adding sort of a blog section to that website, which is largely based on my consulting practice. But there are people that want to talk about other things too, and I think that might be fun. It's whitemountainforensic.com great.

Well, count me in as a reader. And do you ever think about writing a book someday?

That's certainly percolating. I'm working with a very fine agent in New York and we're trying to figure out some way to get this recorded.

Wonderful. That's so exciting. We'll keep keep Please keep us posted and consider me and the Pivot Podcast listenership. We're here to support you, whatever you need.

Well, that's very humbling and quite an honor, Jenny. I appreciate that.

Thank you so much. Thanks again for being here, Tom.

Sure, my pleasure.

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Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.