84: Former CIA Agent Michele Assad Returns: On Transforming Insecurities Into Intuition and Faith

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Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Pivot Podcast. I am thrilled to get to do round two with my great friend and soul sister inspiration, Michelle Rigby Asad. You may remember the podcast that we did in November. If not, I highly encourage you to listen to it. It's on her new book coming out any day now. Maybe by the time you listen it's already out called Breaking My Secret Life in the CIA and what it Taught Me about what's Worth Fighting For. Michelle is a former undercover officer in the CIA and she was trained as a counterterrorism specialist serving her country for over 10 years, working in Iraq and other Middle Eastern locations. Fun fact, Michelle is one of my best friends in the whole world. Julie Clo her sister so these two fabulous women. I'm just so blessed to have you in my life. And when we did the first recording on Breaking Cover, I remember feeling like we had only just scratched the surface. So Michelle, thank you for coming back to the show.

Thank you Jenny for having me. I really appreciate it.

Your book is launching imminently and I know you're experiencing a lot of nerves which might, it might be funny for someone listening to realize that you've been in the CIA, you have interrogated terrorists and insurgents, you've been in some of the most dangerous war zones in the world, and still you are human. And you experience nerves at this launching of a huge project that you've been working on for over six years. Tell me, how are you feeling right now in this moment? And how are you working through some of those fears?

Oh, my goodness. So, obviously, I know what stress is, but this is a unique kind of stress. As you know, I'm feeling overwhelmed by all the details, but, you know, super excited that after seven years, this is finally happening. And so I'm trying to remind myself that you just need to focus on the areas in which you can have the greatest impact. So you can't do everything. So. So choose the things that will really help you advance your objectives. And the other thing that you told me the other day, even if you don't do anything else, your book is going to launch on Tuesday, and so there's nothing that's going to stop that. And at the end of the day, you know what? You just do the best you can and try to enjoy the ride.

It's so funny, too, because Michelle already has an interview with Megyn Kelly lined up for the day of your launch, which is so exciting. I would be way more nervous about that than even the book launch itself.

Yes. I'm like, it's live tv. There's nothing more intimidating than that.

Do you know what she's gonna ask you about?

Well, you know, I assume that it's gonna be focused on the whole female empowerment issue, because that's been such a focus of her show over the last weeks and months. So I'm thinking that probably appeals to her, that message of my book.

One thing we didn't get to talk about when I interviewed you the first time, there's a really powerful part of the book called get off the X. And I know that you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. I want to read everyone an excerpt from the book. And then, Michelle, I would love for you to describe what it means to get off the X. And maybe you could take us to that moment that you share in the book. So you say. It might surprise you to learn that my natural inclination is to remain on the X. I like routine, and I highly value stability at my core. I'm very much a homebody. I'm not a fly by night kind of person. When change is presented to me, I tend to face it with much trepidation. I get nervous about what to expect and whether I'll succeed in the new endeavor. And I often get wrapped up in the what ifs. I have to concentrate on moving myself forward because the process of opening up to new possibilities is unnerving. Venturing outside of my comfort zone goes against the grain of who I am and stokes my deepest insecurities. And then you go into, was it hard to be a CIA officer with all the challenges that relate. And I. The reason I share this is because it's such a beautifully vulnerable moment where you describe you were in a very dangerous situation, and we'll hear about that in a moment. And you share, yes, you have insecurities. Yes, you're more of a homebody than this, like, daring Angelina Jolie, Tomb Raider, Mr. And Mrs. Smith type character. And yet you still served in this role. You still served your country. You still wrote this book. You're still launching this book. And so one thank you for sharing that. And now can you tell us what it means to be on the X and get off the X and that moment that you wrote about?

Sure. So in CIA training, we had to do these paramilitary exercises that the whole purpose was to teach you how to survive an ambush. God forbid you're in the middle of a place that's really dangerous and either criminals or terrorists are trying to. Trying to kill you. And it was really important for me because I served Most of my 10 years in places like that where the reality of an ambush was it was actually a very real possibility. And the idea of the X in training was instructors said the X is where the attack is launched against you. And so the idea is that the terrorists have chosen this spot because they have the greatest advantage at this location. So our normal reaction when under a large amount of stress is either fight, flight, or freeze. And they were trying to condition us in this exercise to do anything but freeze. You just got to get off the X, no matter what it takes, even if it means crawling off the X. And so we went through this training where we actually were put through an actual ambush situation to mimic that.

The kind of stress that you would actually be feeling in an attack. And then I realized after going through this exercise multiple times that it really applies to our everyday life. I mean, I'm sure you have been there, Jenny, when you feel so overwhelmed that you don't know how to get off the ax. And you just think to yourself, like, I'm not even sure what to do to move myself forward. And I.

You know, we get used to being secure and staying in the same spot. And we have to push ourselves off the X. It is critically important to do so. And if that means, you know, baby steps or crawling off the X into the direction of your passion or your dreams, that's all it takes sometimes are those baby steps. So when I look back on my career, you know, I've Traveled to nearly 50 countries, I've lived in six countries in the Middle east, and it sounds like, wow, I'm a real world traveler, and I must just have loads of courage.

It started out with the baby steps, doing things that scared me a little bit. And what I later learned is that courage is a muscle. And the more you use it, the more you push yourself into uncomfortable situations when you're not even sure you're capable, the more improvement, the better you will be at doing that over and over again.

The moment I love that courage is a muscle. The moment you describe in the book. You're driving in a country that doesn't typically have female drivers, and the men walking by would stop and stare at you, and pretty soon it became a whole crowd surrounding your car. What can you take us back to that moment? Like, you know, courage is a muscle. And you had done drills in training. What spoke to you, what let you know what to do in that situation? Because I think you're a great example of your intuition kick in, or your survival response will kick in somehow, even though your inclination is to freeze. So take us to that moment and if you can, zoom in on your thought process and how you got out of it.

Sure. And so, unfortunately, I did have a moment or a situation where I was on the X. And so we were living and serving in a country that was one of the kidnapping and carjacking capitals of the world. And obviously, through my CIA work, I knew that this. The streets were full of Al Qaeda operatives and leadership. And so we as Americans were major targets of Al Qaeda. And several people had been kidnapped off the streets and sold to Al Qaeda, and they were killed very quickly afterwards. And so we kept telling each other, you cannot get taken. Do whatever you can to not get taken. And so one day I was going to work driving by myself because my husband was traveling. I was in a big suv, and I was stopped at a red light. And this gentleman, maybe I should not call him a gentleman, this man crossed the road in front of me, looked up, saw my uncovered face through the window windshield of the car, got very interested in me, and did a Weinstein. In the middle of the road, did.

A Weinstein.

Which I traveled a lot. And I had never seen or experienced anything like that before. And I was really embarrassed. Like, is this guy really doing this in the middle of the road? So he's right in front of my car, and at this point, I just realized I'm just humiliated. I'm turning red. I'm sweating, like, what the heck? And I'm thinking, I just got to get around this guy. So I turn around behind me, and this car pulls up right back of my bumper, so I can't back up. So now I'm, like, caught in the middle of this dude in another car behind me. And I'm sitting there, and I'm realizing that the longer this act goes on, the more dozens and dozens of men are coming over to surround my car to see what's going on and to look through the windshield at the uncovered face. And at that moment, Jenny, you know, I don't even remember specifically thinking it. It was just this automatic response that I suddenly realized I'm on the X and I got to get off. Because if they surround my vehicle, somebody could realize I'm by myself, kidnap me. Even if they're not terrorists, the likelihood was very high that they would see me as a target of opportunity and they could make money by selling me to Al Qaeda, which had happened several times before. And I suddenly realized, oh, my gosh, I could so easily be taken right now. And we had been told in the agency, if it's a matter of your life or someone else's life, then you've got to do whatever you can to protect your. You've got to try to drive off the X if you can. I took my. Without even thinking. I mean, my pulse is racing. My heart is beating out of my chest. I am just thinking, I have to get off this X. I've got to do it. I took my foot off the brake and pressed the gas and hit the guy with my car. Obviously, that is not my preference. Instead, with my vehicle at all, he fell over.

Terribly shocked that I had just done this. And I'm yelling through the windshield in English and in Arabic, and I'm like, get out of the way. I'm like, I will run you over if you don't move. And he just stood there very obstinately, and I had to hit him again with my car for the second time. And he finally realized how very serious I was. I will run you over if I have to. God forgive me.

But he finally got out of the way, and I just gunned it off the X and didn't Stop for one more red light or stop sign all the way to work, just shaking uncontrollably, but realizing how very close I had gotten at that moment to a situation that would have been irreversible forever. So I was so glad that that training, which I hated so much, that ambush training, had helped me in that moment when I most needed it.

Okay. I would have been terrified if that had happened. And I'm putting myself in your shoes. I would have had a very huge urge to be like, I can't handle this. This is too dangerous. I'm in this country. My friends just got kidnapped, and I'm never going to see them again. This just happened to me. I came so close. I got to get out of here. How? What gives you the impulse to stay in this line of work, even after such a close call like that one?

I didn't want to be embarrassed to leave.

Oh, my gosh.

Sometimes it's just that simple. Like, I just don't want to be the person that gives up. And then, second of all, I mean, I just had a deep and abiding faith in God, in this force that's greater than me, that I. Even though it was uncomfortable and incredibly difficult, I knew it's where I was supposed to be at that time. And so there's something about that that gives you the courage just to keep going, even when you're scared.

I would love to talk about your faith because it plays a big role in the book as well, that there's this for you, God, like this voice where no matter the situation and even though the times it was the last place you wanted to go or the last thing you wanted to do, you would hear messages from God that this is your calling and this is chosen for you, and you can do it. I would love for you to just describe how that relationship and how your faith did play a role in these decisions and in keeping you going through such a tough line of work.

Yeah, I mean, it is incredibly challenging because the whole word faith is believing in something you can't see or believing in the outcome of a situation that just seems so difficult to you. And to see that your struggle somehow will end in something beautiful when you can't even imagine what that looks like. You just have to say to yourself, look, you know, my faith is going to allow me to hang in there, even when I don't know where this is taking me, and I don't know how the story is going to end. And I don't claim it's easy. It is Incredibly difficult. I mean, for me, those 10 years in the CIA, I was constantly praying to get out. It was a very hostile working environment and it was life and death situations just year after year after year. And for me, it was thinking, you know, I'm kind of jealous of my friends that get sent to these beautiful places and they're enjoying world class architecture and they're eating amazing food and I'm like in a war zone, jumping into.

To avoid being hit by rockets.

But what I realized, Jenny, after looking back, is that the process of struggle creates something amazing. So we can't avoid the difficulties because that's where your expertise learns to flourish. And so at the end of that 10 years, I emerged from the CIA with this level of counterterrorism and counterintelligence expertise that was so off the charts. And then to be able to take that and use it for good, use my story to inspire others, now I can see why I had to go through all those tough times. Now I can appreciate and understand it. And now I have even greater faith for the future, for when I go through difficulties, to know that there's something better on the other side of it.

So beautiful. What do you see as your calling now? So if those 10 to 15 years, because you've done some private consulting work, that's also been dangerous after the CIA.

Now, when you look from that perspective of faith, looking back, what do you think those 15 years were preparing you for as you look ahead to getting your message out and these Next? I know 10, 15 years is a long time to look ahead, but do you feel a call? Do you feel drawn to some greater purpose for this next phase?

Yeah, so my, this next phase is using all those things from the last 15 years to communicate and inspire others. So I love that you said that you liked that I was honest and vulnerable in sharing my weaknesses. I think it's so important for us to do that because otherwise people look at you and think, oh, you're this. You already always had it figured out. And you were always this amazing creature. And you're like, no, actually I never was.

And so by being vulnerable, we can inspire others to take on challenges in their own life and to have the courage to push through the difficulties, the struggles. And so my calling is most definitely to share my own story. And if that's through blogs or podcasts or through my book or through speaking engagements, all the above, that's definitely my. The next era of my life and where that's going.

When you were talking, it also struck me that Sometimes we don't see ourselves the way other people see us. So no matter what you say about how you felt or whatever, I can look at you and be like, you are an amazing, incredible creature of a woman. Like, you're amazing and. And it's just sometimes we are too close to ourselves and we don't see it. But other people looking in could easily be like, oh, my God. Yeah, you're incredible. You're wonder of a kind. You're so special and you have such resilience and courage and all the things that you might not know that you have, but other people, even God, can see. Oh, it's so obvious sometimes to everybody else.

Right? I know. So these things become so commonplace to us that. Right. I mean, I think that's why, you know, these friendships, like my friendship with you and my sister are so great, because we can, you know, say, this is how I see you from the outside. And those statements of love and support build each other up and are so incredibly useful in helping us to see who we really are. And for me, I think, again, it's just that stubborn determination to hang in there for as long as it takes to figure this out. And so I always tell people, I've never been on this, this speed bullet train. I'm usually on the slow bus, but I will get there eventually. We'll figure it out. So I guess my power is in just the stick with it attitude. No matter what.

I love it. Clearly. Clearly, with what you did in the CIA and even this book, I think the length of a project, a big creative, soul driven, purpose driven project, it encodes us as we work on it. And in your case, this book was encoding something in you for seven years, and it took seven years for that. Those fruits to ripen. So I'm curious, what lessons do you think were encoded for you as you worked on the book? That it just took this much time to kind of like season the lessons and have you be ready now in this moment.

Oh, my goodness. That's so beautiful, what you just said. Encoding us through that process.

You know, I have talked about this a lot. I do think there's this perfect timing that we're not always privy to. And so while I would have loved for the book to come out like five years ago, it became a different book through those seven years. And so I had to go through the process of struggle to get to the point where I wrote the right book, it had the right focus, it had the right stories in it.

And for me, again, it's believing that even, you know, all those times when I said Jenny and Julie, I don't know if this is going to happen, you're like, yes, it's going to happen.

We were so clear. We never had a second of doubt. Not a split second, fraction of a doubt. That's what's wild looking from the outside.

This is why community and relationships are so critical. We need to help each other through those moments where we're like, okay, I don't know if I've, if I can do this. And having someone say, oh, yeah, you can do this. I relied on that feedback from you and from my sister and from others. You know, some days that's all you have to live on. That and your faith in God or whatever it is you have faith in. And that's why I encourage people, well, say something. If you feel it about someone, give them that word of encouragement. Tell them how you see them. Those, those words can be really life changing for that other party. So be generous in sharing those thoughts with your friends, colleagues and contacts.

You said this is a different book now than the one you would have written or that you did write five years ago. How so? And what's important about the version that's here now?

Yeah, so when I started, I had no idea what I was doing and I wrote probably 40,000 words and just realized it was the wrong book. I don't know how, I just knew it. So I scrapped it. I started over and I thought I was going to write a book on women in the workplace. And that's the book that I actually submitted to try to get a book deal. When I finally got two book offers, the publisher said, we don't actually want the book you've written. We want a memoir. I was terribly shocked and I thought, well, who would be interested in hearing about my life and why? How in the world could I write a memoir? I just didn't get it.

Talk about having to own your power. Wow, I have chills everywhere.

I mean, I literally had 10 people on the other side of that phone call, publisher and my literary agent explaining to me why I needed to write this memoir and telling me again, here's how we see you. Here's how other people see you. You see this life you've lived as normal. It's not normal and people want to hear about it. And I was like, really?

And so I had to start from scratch. So the version of the book that's out now, breaking cover, is actually the third version or my third attempt at writing a book. And had I Not waited these seven years, it wouldn't have been the right book. So you have to trust the timing.

And do you feel now on the inside, more prepared to be the messenger because of the shift of the focus of the book and the work to even do this, do you feel more prepared?

Absolutely, yes.

One thing you say in Breaking Cover that we talked briefly about last time, but I want to come back to it, you said God does not require perfection, that you got the message, I need empty vessels. What does that mean to you?

Yeah, so again, I think feeling completely incapable of writing a book, not knowing how to write a book, but feeling called to do so, I had that moment of like, why am I being called to this? I don't even know how to do this. And I heard the words, I'm calling you, and I'm using you as a tool because you have always let me shape you. So I have been open to allowing God to make me into something greater. So I realized at that point he wasn't looking for people who necessarily things came easy to that as long as you were open.

He could use that. And that was an aha moment for me because so many times in my life I felt completely intimidated by new things and rarely ever felt capable and rarely ever knew whether I had the proper skill set to be successful. And I think a lot of that comes from growing up in a really small town in a really rural area and being disadvantaged by the fact that I didn't. I just didn't know things. And so every time I tried something new, it was completely and utterly new. And I had to learn everything from the ground up from zero. And so I think because I had to work extra, extra hard to develop my expertise and to succeed, and because I was open to doing the things that scared me, I guess that was what was required for me to live a life of impact, is that openness and the. That vulnerability to that force greater than I, who is ultimately in charge of my life.

It's so interesting how you described, even from childhood, that everything you did was new. And yet you always had this explorer aspect of you that. I'm picturing the Sagittarius symbol in astrology, like the person aiming their arrow far away, far lands, far experiences, and always had that, that global perspective and curiosity which not everybody growing up in rural Florida would have.

Yeah, the National Geographic magazine is what did it for me. And so when I was exposed to these foreign cultures through those amazing glossy spreads of people from all over the world, it just ignited this fire in me. To say, you know, what's out there? I really want to see this. And more importantly, I really want to understand this. These people look so interesting to me. Let's go learn about them.

I love it. I love it. What a fun exercise. We could all look and see what magazines or books were we most drawn to, even as kids?

Yes. It's a real indicator, I think, of what you were most interested in. A very guttural level.

Yeah. I think this notion of divine and perfect timing and what you said is so incredible about that. You always let yourself be shaped. You were always open. And I see you as someone who, at every step along the way, you were so afraid almost to do it by yourself. You had no choice but to lean on something bigger than you, because you. And I've had that experience too, where it's like, when I try and think that I'm all alone, it's too hard. It's too hard. It's like life flows better when you can have some faith and. And not some. In your case, a tremendous amount that it has been a huge driver. I'm curious.

Two things. One, how do you generally, when you're praying or how do you receive guidance? And are you. Is it an ongoing dialogue every day, or do you just get kind of messages when you need the most? And then was there ever a time for you where you felt you weren't getting clear direction, whether stay in the CIA or go. And how do you reconcile those moments where you feel, where is he now? Where are the messages when I need them most?

I think that's such an interesting question because there are moments in my life when I prayed a lot and I heard nothing back. And, you know, those dry periods were like, okay, what's wrong with me? Am I not doing something right here?

That is when it is absolutely most critical to hang on and hang in there. I can look back now at those periods of my life and realize that while it seemed nothing was happening for me actually behind the scenes, the chess pieces were being put into place by God that were revealed to me at a later date. So here's my message and just realizing as I'm saying it right now, the dry periods that feel to you dry may in fact be filled with things that you just cannot see. And then sometimes you go through periods where it just seems like you're getting messages often, you know, when you've been meditating or praying or communicating. For me, I do my very best to start first in the morning trying to connect with God and then try to Revisit that throughout the day and trying to keep that line of communication open, per se. And so there are times in my life where I felt like the messages just flowed so incredibly easy. And they came when I was asking for a message, and they came in times when I absolutely was not seeking them out. And they just came to me. So I don't think there's any I think there's an ebb and flow to that.

I love what you said about even when it feels like a dry period, there are often, if not always, puzzle pieces being moved into place behind the scenes. And for some reason I feel like. So in this process of having to rewrite your book, Michelle was actually went to the Middle east to help with the refugee crisis, to help move Christians into new countries. They vetted hundreds of people. She and her husband worked tirelessly. And ABC, the 60 Minutes program, followed them and did this, a whole program on Michelle and her husband. And then now even Megyn Kelly. I don't know why I feel like this could be a huge thing for you and wouldn't it be so interesting? It's like Megyn Kelly didn't have a show two years ago. And, you know, if that's the thing, it's not to put too much pressure hopes on one thing. But you never know. There could be then the perfect person is watching the Megyn Kelly show or it's the perfect interviewer for you to get the message you most need to get out to the world. And it wouldn't have been a fit if it was Kathy Lee and Hoda sipping wine on the Today Show.

You know, like, yeah, you just don't know. And you're right, because had that book come out earlier, as I was pushing for it, we wouldn't have been involved in that massive evacuation effort of those Christians in 2015. And so because the book deal was delayed until after that, it became an integral part of my story in the last several chapters of my book, go into that rescue mission. And again, that wouldn't have been part of the book had the book come out years before that. And so again, that divine timing. Oh, the patience to wait for that. I'm not particularly patient, so that's hard for me.

But I think this is just an encouragement just to hang in there. Once again.

I know we talked before we hit record that launches of any anything, especially book launches, can be very overwhelming. What do you think the lessons, how do these lessons you learned while writing the book, how do they apply to this? It's very intimidating launching something into the world. Especially for you. You were undercover for 10 years. No one could know what you did. And now your job is to communicate to as many people as possible. So how are you calming those nerves? What's helping you as you enter this new phase?

Yeah, I mean, gosh, the intimidation factor of hiding your life for 15 years. And now you're promoting the heck out of your life and you're trying to be on social media, you're expected to, and you're an author and you're doing a book launch. It's very uncomfortable for me. It's constantly pushing myself to do things that feel so very wrong. But it's part of the process. You know what I tell myself, Jenny, in those moments? I do this little silly self talk thing, you know, when I was about to enter the debriefing room to debrief my first terrorist for this really critical intelligence I needed to get. My heart was beating out of my chest and I'm like excited and nervous all at the same time. And finally right before I walked in the room, I said, michelle, you gotta just let these nerves go because everything in your life has prepared you for this moment. Just trust your intuition, trust your gut instincts and trust yourself. Just go in there and it's going to come.

I ended up doing an amazing job at that debriefing and it was just off the charts in terms of success. And so what I'm telling myself now is the same thing. Everything in your life has brought you to this moment. You just need to trust the process and not be scared, but just go into it with confidence.

That's amazing. When you were compared to that situation you just described, going in to interrogate your first terrorist. My goodness. And what was at stake when you were saying that? All I could picture now for this launch was you reclined with your hands behind your head on a floaty in like a water park. Like.

One of those, like it's kind of man made, but it's like a river that's just flowing and you're just like reclined. Like the stakes in comparison. And now it's like you've worked so hard for 15 years. Maybe there can be an energy of like kicked back recline, like the flow is still carrying you, you're still moving, but you can relax. Like you just. Yeah, it's just.

I love that picture. I love that imagery. That's wonderful.

I'm practicing saying it as it comes to me because they're weird.

No, but they're very cool and they're those Are special. I. I think that's like a special spiritual gift in and of itself. Those. Those kind of visions, if you want to call them that.

Yeah. And they come and for a second, I feel like, what does this have to do with anything? Like, I can't say this to her out loud while we're recording a podcast. But at the same time, I feel like there. God. I can't speak for what God wants you to do. Only you can know that. But it's like, I. Maybe I'll say as myself, I would want for you to just be so chill and you get to celebrate. And now you get. You've worked so hard, and this is like reaping the rewards of all that hard work. And, like, almost to feel like you're launching this book while at the spa somehow.

I love it. Launch the book while at the spa. That is where I'm gonna. That's. I'm gonna focus my thoughts from here to Megyn Kelly show.

Exactly. And if it were me, like, I'd book a spa day the day before Megyn Kelly. I'd book. I'd pamper myself. Like, I would make the launch week about pampering and. Oh, I happen to be launching a book while pampering myself this week. Love it.

And Jenny gave me permission to do this. So we're good.

That's right. You can point your publishers back to this, this, this episode. Blame it all on me just so you can blame it all on me.

That's what friends are for.

Exactly. Yes. What. What do you want readers to feel or even someone listening to this conversation when they put down your book? How do you want them to feel? And what would you encourage them to do as they continue on go about their lives?

Oh, I would just hope that they either listen to this or read the book and say, oh, my gosh.

Capable I am enough the way that I am. And if it gives them that boost of energy or courage they need to do the thing that's in the back of their mind that they thought they have this passion. Right. They have this idea, and they've just been too scared to get off the X and do it, that it gives them that injection they need to move forward. That is the bottom line.

I love that. That's so beautiful.

What else? Any other final thoughts? Is there anything else that we missed or that as you've been doing interviews for the book, you wish someone would ask, but they haven't yet.

Oh, my goodness. Well, you know.

I just loved your book Pivot so much, and I think it's because, for me, it was such a massive pivot to go from working in the CIA for 10 years to being a civilian, leaving the government world. And so much of what you said resounded the process of pivot, the mindset you need to pivot successfully and the strategy that you used. I kind of stumbled onto it as I was going through it, but it's so absolutely valid.

We had no resume when we left the CIA. We couldn't speak about what we'd done for 10 years, and we had no Rolodex of contacts we could lean on for a future job. So for us, the pivot out of the CIA was one of the most scary prospects we were facing. And.

How one step at a time led us to the next step, led us to the next step, and we successfully were able to develop a life outside the CIA in which we had meaning and purpose. You are used to as an adrenaline junkie doing things that mattered every single day that were a matter of life and death, that saved lives. And you think, jeez, could I ever have purpose on the outside? So even if I do get established as a civilian, could I ever feel this sense of belonging and purpose again? And so, of course, because I felt led out of the CIA, I felt this intuitive push to do that. Of course it was going to work out. But that process of pivot can be so scary. But when you deconstruct it the way that you have in the book, you can take out that fear and have a template for how to move forward, even when you're completely terrified to do so.

I'm so happy to hear that. It was so helpful, and I'm really glad. I meant to ask you earlier about what you just brought up, which is you have so much adrenaline and stimulation in the role that you had in the CIA. How are you finding it on the other side now? Like, is it difficult not to have that in that community? Or have you found it in other ways? Or you just fried from it and it's like, no more needed?

Yeah. So, I mean, just to give you an idea, you know, a day in the life in Baghdad would be working, you know, 12, 13, 14 hours a day, reading thousands of intelligence reports, meeting clinicians clandestinely with sources, and trying not to get him or I killed. Running, jumping into bunkers to not get killed by the rockets falling all around us. That's the kind of adrenaline rush that we're talking about.

I thought you get addicted to it. And I thought, geez, I don't think I could ever feel this way again. And it was scary to think of not having it. But when I finally did leave the CIA, Jenny, I realized I needed a break. That was 10 years of adrenaline surging through your system every hour of every day. That is not sustainable. And so I really needed a period of peace where I could just learn to live as a normal human being again and I could reconnect with my family and friends and I could start to live what, you know, I guess for everyone else is called a normal life. I didn't know what normal was.

And I needed to, I don't know, kind of come back down to earth again. And so I'm so grateful for the reprieve that I had, that I've had since leaving the CIA. And of course, now we're building up into, you know, a different kind of adrenaline rush with the book launch and speaking engagements and, you know, all of this amazing community engagement. So I'm starting to feel those things again, which I love. And so, you know, again, ebb and flow to life. Sometime, you know, we're very busy and other times we just need to rest.

Oh, totally. Do you. Do you find it hard to relate to people because you've been through so much.

You know, relating in terms of activities. Yeah. You know, people will look at you like you're crazy when you tell a story because it's just so outside the norm of what people know. But relatable in terms of having the same feelings, fears, hangups, issues as everyone else. Yep. That's. That's all the same. Same.

Totally. Yeah. It's really. I will also say that being able to publish this book itself wasn't a given, that you had to get CIA clearance to do it, and that wasn't guaranteed. There was nothing saying that. Even after all this work. I remember how nail biting it was waiting with you when you submitted it for approval. And to hear back about whether they would even let you move forward. It's like talk about. About not just the unknown of your mega pivot into civilian life, but then even this huge journey you were on with the book and you didn't know if you'd be able to.

Finish the process.

Yeah. So, I mean, I felt called to write this book. You know, I heard this calling in 2011 and I was still in the CIA when that message came to me. And Jenny, I move forward in faith. If I heard this message, it was going to happen. But nothing was a given.

The CIA does not have to allow you to drop cover. They do not have to approve that request and in many cases they don't. So just dropping cover was a big deal. And then as you know firsthand, that nail biting process of waiting for the agency to read and clear that book was another. It required large levels of faith and it took a very long period of time. There were redactions.

But at the end of the day, what was supposed to happen has happened and the book is indeed coming out. After all the unknowns, the words that I heard, it's time to share your story. It is finally happening.

I'm so happy. I don't know if I could be any happier to hold your book when it arrives than any book I've ever received. I mean, of course getting my own in the mail is very joyful for the first time, but this one is going to be, be so, so special to hold and to have on my bookshelf. So I'm very grateful that you had the courage. You did that. Thank you for doing the work and the service that you did and for sharing your story and for launching it into the world even though it feels nerve wracking.

Thank you, Jenny. And thank you for all of your love and support and your positive affirmations through the years, which are really critical and, you know, really kept me hanging on and those tough moments. Thank you.

Of course, let's all please go out, support Michelle and her book. It's called Breaking My Secret Life in the CIA and what it taught me about what's worth fighting for. And if you want to get in touch with Michelle, I always, I will say I feel very lucky and I don't know how to describe it, but when I get notes from podcast listeners, they like, warm my heart so much. And I, I always hope that for the guests, the people I bring on, it's like I feel very proud. I feel we have the best podcast listener community. So if you have a message and you want to send me or Michelle a note, I know it would be really helpful during the launch. And you can find more about Michelle at her website, Michelle with one L RigbyAssad a s s a d dot com Michelle, you're amazing and I can't wait to watch the recording of Megyn Kelly. I know it's going to be be great.

Thank you, Jenny. Thank you so much.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot Lists, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always, always Sam.