173: Dealing With Narcissists In Business with Angie Rorrer - #GrowYourLife

Hey, everyone. Thanks for listening to the Grow youw Life podcast. My name is Jared Mike Rakowski, and if we haven't met yet, I help coaches, trainers, consultants, authors get more clients, make more money, make six figures and even seven figures in their businesses. Today I have a special guest. Her name is Angie Rohrer. I hope I said that right. And she has started an apostolic center out in. Where is that that you started that at?

Roanoke, Virginia.

Roanoke, Virginia as well. She is a coach and helps people that want to go make change in the world, positive change in the world, but as well as work with people that have dealt with trauma and have dealt with specifically with narcissists, whether it be in their corporate environment, relationships, friends, family, things like that. And so welcome to the podcast. Angie, how are you doing today?

I'm doing fantastic. I am thrilled to be here. It's an honor and pleasure to be here with you today.

That's awesome. And we've done a little bit of coaching as well together on your business too in the past. That's why I wanted to invite you. I've been kind of going through some of the different people that I've worked with closely, have them on the podcast here just to share their message. And so tell me a little bit about what you guys are doing in Virginia right now.

Well, specifically in Virginia. I did just release the hub, as you said. It's southwest hub, Virginia. And we're really looking at. This is not church as usual. This is not a playground ground. This is a place to equip people apostolically, to understand what the true meaning is. Being outside the walls in your business, in your community, in your home, with your children, just everywhere you go, and be that change agent that we're meant to be.

That's awesome.

And do it all over the world, change regions and change nations.

That's awesome. Now, you mentioned when you work with people and this podcast, we have a lot of coaches, a lot of trainers, a lot of consultants. Many people deal with and have dealt with trauma. And it might not be always physical. It can be mental. And that's what especially. We're going to talk about gaslighting, especially if you've been in a corporate environment or with friends or people. But another thing is when you're coaching, sometimes clients can be the most toxic.

Absolutely.

Sometimes clients can be the narcissist. And as well, something that we need to be careful of as coaches is that we're as well not stepping into what's called narcissistic monologuing when we're coaching people. So those are two things that I think I'd love to explore is kind of that as well as what's the difference between healthy self esteem, thinking highly of yourself and where, where is that line? Where does that drawn? Because I think that's going to help a lot of the coaches that listen to this and answer some of the questions that they have from somebody that has researched it, lived it, knows the answers. And so tell me a little bit about why you got into that, why you, you've. You focused on that, what got you interested in this area of what you do.

Well, as a breakthrough strategist, working with people in business, not just, you know, with ministry, but working with people in business, I could see a lot of them that were dealing with narcissists, whether it was in their personal life or in their businesses. And not just that. I personally have a lot of experience, experiential knowledge because I came from an abusive marriage of 30 years. And so the, the process of healing, you know, you get married, I got a psychology degree unfortun. But the process I walked through it was very difficult. But what I learned was beautiful. And I want to help others because nobody was there to tell me what I didn't know and I didn't know to ask. So that's one of the reasons I'm so passionate and why I now I call myself a trauma informed breakthrough strategist because that's really. We gotta know where the roots are.

Could you give an example of that as far as like a situation that somebody might deal with and how they will find that breakthrough if they work with you?

Well, an example of that is we have a tendency to be very unaware of ourselves. We may be invalidating our emotions, causing ourselves to self sabotage. We'll start, stop. We will constantly beat ourselves up and we won't understand and then we'll beat ourselves up and more. And what I do is I'll take clients to where they can shift their mindset and start validating themselves and learn how to allow themselves to feel the emotion, not beat themselves up. And then it motivates them to keep moving forward so they stop self sabotaging. They stop the stop start thing and they learn real practical daily skills that bring them to be able to have the success in their business, make the money they want and live the life of their dreams.

What would you say is the like the root? Like obviously they know what they need to do, most of them in their business. Why are they self sabotaging? Like is it just that they're just not motivated enough. They're not good enough or what is it?

No. And you know, that's the thing is I used to think for years that I had a motivation of procrastination issue. And most of the time we're like, stop procrastinating. The thing is, is people that procrastinate, 99.99% of them want to stop. And what I learned in my, in my education and from experiencing it myself is that I had trauma that subconsciously was causing these self limiting situations. And it's just like when you learn to drive a car. A car, Jeremiah, the first thing you do is you're checking your mirrors, you're kind of tense, you're looking around you, but eventually you get to where you drive home and you're like, I don't even remember how I got home. Because it becomes automatic. And 90% of what we do comes from our automatic subconscious. So we have to become aware of those triggers and then we can be. And then we can start to rewire our brain to change it.

And so where does that, what does that have to do with. As far as relationships with a narcissist.

Or narcissism relationship is personal or in business or both.

Just as the. For the person, for who they are. And dealing with these issues.

Yes.

Of self sabotage, how does that relationship, past or present, create that self sabotage?

Well, for many that are in any kind of relationship with a narcissist, with a lot of the things that come with the gaslighting and the love bombing, even if it's not a romantic relationship, it still goes on. Even the business world and friendships, you tend to start, you tend to doubt yourself, you become a people pleaser. It becomes ingrained in you to be the people pleaser, even at your own expense, because you have something in you that wants to be loved, accepted and validated. And that's how you get it. You don't think of it like that. You're not thinking, I'm going to get validated by this person. But that is because there's something in us that feels like we have to have that external validation to meet, to be important or beloved or feel like we matter. And so it really can wreak havoc on you, your personal lives, your business, really all shapes and forms even. I mean, I've seen a lot of that, this narcissist abuse, even in the, in the faith, you know.

So yeah. What are some of the clues that somebody can look for, whether it be in their friendships or relationships that Maybe they have that going on and they don't realize it. Obviously, if you're have people pleasing behavior, that can be a clue, which a lot of people think, well, I'm just a kind person. I'm just a caring person. No, you. It's trauma, actually.

Yeah.

Not that we don't want to be not kind or not, but. Yeah, you know what I mean? And so explain some of that. What are some of those things and where's that nuance there of stepping into being your most powerful self?

Yes, absolutely. I love that you said that. Yes, it absolutely is. I mean, many times we'll find ourselves doing things and we can do things with the right heart motive and things with the wrong heart motive. And if you find yourself wishing you didn't say yes, or feeling like you have to, or feeling guilty if you don't say yes, those are huge indicators because you were not actually being true.

I dealt with that.

Yep, same, same. And that is really hard because I remember many a situation where I would set a boundary and say no, but because of, you know, this computer program and I had to rewrite the programming, every part of my being would feel mean doing it.

Wow.

And so I had counsel that helped me learn to trust myself and slowly rewrote the program. But I had to learn to trust that I was thinking, right. Because everything told me, no, you're being mean.

That's it. That's it. And everything ends up telling you that you're being like the person that abused you, Right?

Oh, yes. And they will be quick to tell you that. And that's another key indicator. If the person gets upset with your boundary or even not being available to the way when, how, whatever that they want you to, then you really have to pay attention because these people often will accuse you of being uncaring, unkind, not compassionate, selfish, and even narcissistic. I mean, they are really good.

That's a key indicator right there.

Yes.

And that segues into. As a coach, you can have clients that do that.

Oh, my gosh. That's probably one of the worst areas.

You see it because you're trying to serve these people and they're essentially manipulating you to get stuff for free. Robbing you, robbing your business.

Right.

And getting away with it because you said yes to them. Because they. And here's the thing. They recognize most of the time, if you. If you're dealing with this, people that are listening to this podcast, listen, I know, I've dealt with it. Angie and I are talking from experience by the Way we have built, been this way and, and through healing, no longer. Okay. So I want you to understand that those that are listening to this podcast is that we have lived what we're talking about that maybe you've listened to and I've seen the comments on my social media. There are people right now on my social media, they feel like they would be considered the worst person in the world to say no to. Not going to dinner with a family member because they have to go to their kids soccer game.

Yes.

And it sacrifices the family, it sacrifices the stuff like that, you know, all of that. And we get our priorities whacked out because we're living out the story of what our previous experiences are. We're living out our childhood memories, our memories with, with parents and friends and, and this ends up creating a framework like you said, a computer programming of how we live our life, that we have to always say yes and that we're mad, mean, horrible person for saying no. So how can somebody a. There's two questions I got for you. Here's the first one. What's one of the first steps to becoming more empowered to say no, to feel less mean and actually to know that you are actually doing the right thing when you do that and that you can feel more courageous. You're not shaking in your boots next time you say no. What's something that people could do?

Well, one of the first things that you can do, especially if you're talking to a potential client, is you need to actually look at potential clients. And I know many coaches that just take anybody that comes and that's a recipe for disaster in the first place.

Because you, I tried that too.

Yeah, I know. You start, you set yourself up for failure because you are looking at yourself as the server and you are, you're serving your clients, but what about them? What about whether or not they're a good fit? And so you try to be all things to all people and you're just not capable of that. Which feeds into more of the self loss of self esteem. Beating yourself up and feeling like. And then exhausting yourself trying to be all things. Oh boy, have I done that. Exhausted myself trying to do this, not taking time off, feeling like I have to mess. I have to answer every message right away. And I can remember years ago when I got bombarded after doing something online and my, my, my box blew up and I freaked out. It wasn't a fear of failure I had, it was a fear of success. I can't possibly handle this. But that was because I didn't know how to have boundaries at the time, so.

Good.

So that's one of the first key indicators is how do you feel? And a lot of people will get trapped in. This is just me. I. When you're talking and something doesn't sit right, trust your instinct.

There's a reason we had a situation today where literally today somebody wrote in was a client had bought a previous program. They were angry because we didn't respond over the weekend during 4th of July. I mean, they were livid. And then they ended up saying that they. That. That because we didn't respond, they ended up catching us in a lie, trying to take advantage of people. That sounds like gaslighting to me.

It is gaslighting. And that's. They'll do. They'll tell, you know. Well, and culture does not help because the culture of this entitled mentality, people think that when they want something that you are supposed to jump to and ask how high, whether it's after hours, whether it's on the weekend, whether you have an important event, whether you're even.

And if you don't, then you must be something. There must be something wrong with you.

Right. You're a lighter, you're a liar, you're a thief, you're just scamming. I mean, I'm sure we both have heard it all. Yeah, that's. That's the thing. It's like as a business owner, I would never treat another, and I want to honor and respect, affect their time not only when they're on the clock and give that to me as far as their choice of their hours, but also when they're not. Because we all deserve some downtime.

Yep, totally.

Most people don't treat us that way, unfortunately.

We want to deliver high quality customer service. We want to help people and wow people with what we offer. I think that that's a core thing, but not at the expense of our sanity, not at the expense of jumping through hoops just for one person. And so because of that, and here's a big thing, I had to learn this recently, if you're going to have a standard for one client, you need to have it for all of them.

Oh, yes, definitely.

And so as coaches, sometimes in the beginning, we end up over serving, over putting ourselves out there, because that's what we have done in our everyday life to get people to like us and underpricing. If only they like me enough, then they'll buy from me, right?

Yeah. And that. Well, that's. And that's part of that Mindset that is like me, like me, like me. And you're willing to just about give everything away. And some people do give everything away. And then of course, what happens is it actually sets you up for the pitfall that you're not going to have clients that are going to take you serious. Because a lot of times if somebody of merit is looking for a good coach, they're going to look for somebody that knows what they're doing. And if your prices are too low, right. They'll think, oh no, they don't really know what they're doing and so that even our price points can make a difference.

Now tell me, here's the second thing I wanted to ask you. What is the difference between. Because here's the thing. Every, every narcissist that I met, they seem, they seem on the surface like they're really confident.

Yes.

The truth is we know that they're actually not.

Right.

And I learned that recently, they're actually not confident. They're overcompensating for their lack of it.

Right.

What is the difference between that behavior and having positive self esteem, self belief and how do you balance that with humility and kindness and compassion? And not because like, like I used to think that, okay, if I have self esteem and think that I'm a great coach and I'm an amazing person, that now I must be a narcissist for thinking that for whatever reason, that's what I ended up thinking and I ended up playing small because of that. Can you speak to some of the difference between that and. What I've learned is that your, your ability to coach people is directly connected to how you perceive yourself.

Yes, it really is. And, and that playing small is a big factor. The thing is, is with a, when you know, a key indicator, typically that you're not a narcissist, when you start wondering if you're a narcissist, there you go. But yeah, you know, and the thing.

Is, you don't want to be.

Yeah, you don't want to be. So. Because the narcissist is not going to think that way. They think the world revolves around them even if they don't express it that way. But you can pay attention, attention to the subtleties. First off, you've got things like trauma bonding. If somebody is even asking you questions about your trauma and connecting there with you, it may not be a narcissist, but pay attention because that is a key way that they get trauma bonded with you and then they've got you hooked in and it's almost like a drug because you feel like this person gets you and. But it is in their, they have terrible self esteem, they want to drag you down. And it'll start with these, these backhanded compliments. Pay attention, right? They'll say something, but it'll be backhanded. And then if you get upset, they'll tell you that it was just a joke or you, you don't know how to take a joke and you're the problem. When in reality, even if it's sarcasm, I always teach my clients sarcasm. I love sarcasm. But if I say something sarcastically to somebody, I, I don't get to decide if it hurts their feelings or not. They do. So even if I didn't mean it that way. And a lot of times sarcasm actually has truth to it. People use that all the time as, oh, it was just a joke. But no, that's actually what they think of you. And so, you know, so there's that. There's nothing wrong with sarcasm. My daughter and I can go back and forth, but we both know and we know where the line is, you know, and, but then when it comes to healthy self esteem, which is something that we all, any of us that have walked through this life and especially dealing with a lot of narcissists, we all, especially in business or really in anything, we tend to play small because we've been told our entire lives that we're too much, we're too emotional or too, you know, sensitive or any of these things. So we tend to play smaller because to not play smaller means there's something wrong because we're being too proud. And that gets equated to the wrong side of pride, where the right side of pride is. And unfortunately, there's a lot of insecure individuals that will say you are prideful when you're not. When you know who you are and you own who you are.

Yes.

And you walk in that, the goal is to attract those that are supposed to connect with you and your voice, to empower them. And the ones that don't, you actually are doing yourself. That's celebrated. You're getting rid. The trash is taking itself out is what I always say, you know, so you need to know who you are and not play small. And baby, the way you get there is to not think less of yourself. Because as long as you're thinking less of yourself, you won't own who you truly are. You've got to not care what others think. And I know it's easier said than done, but it is possible to achieve and surround yourself with those that speak life and truth and love into you.

And here's a question for you. I found this has been in my experience in marketing as somebody that's like, studied this. Some of the behaviors that a narcissist does because their heart is in the wrong place.

Yeah.

They're not necessarily. And I'm going to explain what I mean by this. They're not necessarily. The behavior is not bad, but their intention is.

Yeah.

And here's what I mean by that. When I'm making sales copy, it helps me to understand if somebody has certain fear or a past trauma or something to attract the right person, but the intention isn't to take advantage of them.

Yes.

See. Or if I'm giving a compliment to somebody to make a connection.

Right.

You know, that's not love bombing. Now, I thought that they were the same thing. So for. For years, I actually avoided giving compliments to people. I actually avoided speaking life to people because it was used against me for so long.

Okay. Yeah.

I actually avoided connecting around emotionally in my sales copy and my marketing because that was used against me for so long. So. So speak to a little bit of like, how do you know? Like, where is that line drawn to where it goes into? Okay. And I think that may be just personal for people. For me, I just had to realize my heart was in the right place and that the reason that I'm doing this isn't to take advantage of people or to do stuff like that. And I've never had anybody accuse me of that either when I've done that. How would you kind of draw that balance a little bit for people, especially if they're coaches, they're going into marketing because that's the thing. And they're like, wow, some of the behaviors that I didn't like, now my coach is asking me to do. Or like they think that marketing is manipulation or things like that. How do you draw that balance and really kind of keep your heart pure? A and B, have confidence that what you're doing actually isn't a harmful thing. And see, I think it's getting. Having the right coach teach you, which I coach people on, that I coach them in the right way to do that. But can you speak to some of that just from your perspective and experience?

Absolutely. That is such a good question. Because I see that so much also in my own clients and even out in the market, you know, all these different marketing areas. And there are people that have say the right things in copy. They will play on the fear.

Right.

The motive is, is not pure. It's not to serve them and help them. They say the right things, to check the boxes, to get the, they're actually really good at it. And, and they get the people's money. But then you'll see, you know, people may, and they may get what they want and be okay, but you'll always see people that have, you know, realize that they got my money and then they dropped me. Yeah, I got my product. But there was no, no customer service. There was. And so you'll see some of that marketing can be very ooey gooey. I don't like it when people are literally intentionally playing on the fear.

Right.

Difference is, is when you are bringing out in your copy a pain point, you are using words that your client, your ideal customer is thinking to themselves, these are pain points. These, it may even be fears. But your heart motive is, is it I just want to take their money and get money from them. So I'm going to say whatever I have that's going to manipulate them into hitting that add to cart button and following through it is I want to help you. And not only that, when it comes to healthy self esteem, it's I got what you need, I can help you. I will get you there. Instead of being like, well, maybe sort of. Because we've got to know what we bring to the table in order to be able to take our clients there as well.

I, you know, I had a lady I was talking to the other day. This is a great example from what you just said. I tried to tell her like, you need to have the confidence and believe that what you offer is the best solution. And she was like, I could tell it was something related to trauma. And she was very offended by the fact that I said that. She was like, well, honestly, like I would be lying to say that I'm really good at what I do because there's other people better than me. And so I tell people I'm one of the maybe good people and I feel like I'm dishonest for thinking that I'm good. What would you say to somebody who's a coach or somebody that, that, that, that thinks that way, that is dealing with their, their, their fearing that if they're confident in their marketing that they're, that they're going to be dishonest?

Well, first and foremost what I would say is there are a lot of people out there doing the same, same thing in these industries that we all work in and they all have their Qualifications and they're good. And you know, sometimes these people look good on, on paper and on websites and in videos, but you don't really know them as a person. So you can only qualify that so far by, by. Based on what you've seen. But here is a factor that every single person needs to understand. They're not you.

Right.

I come. Look, I'm not everybody's cup of tea and I'm okay with that.

Exactly.

You know, I raise up other coaches that they may connect with somebody in a way that I don't. That's the point. So you have to remember you are good at what you do. You're great at what you do. You are an expert in what you do. And your voice, your way of doing things, your experiential knowledge as well, that got you. There is going to be different. We have similar experiences, but we also have other experiences, you know, that are not. So you're going to connect with people based on some of those that I wouldn't and vice versa. Remember who you are is what makes you the expert. Because not everybody. You just want those that are called. You can. You must believe that you bring value to the table.

I think this is really good. I think, you know, to sum this up, it's like we've been talking about, okay, how do you qualify your prospect? How do you talk with them in the right way? How do you avoid people that you don't want to work with? And really, if you're in business, those are things that you need to do or you're going to get eaten alive. It's going to take up all your time and energy just trying to validate yourself based on your trauma. And some people, they need to get some help around that. You know, me, I worked with a therapist that helped me with. What are some of the ways that, you know, that people can get help around? So those different trauma that they have and what are some of the ways that maybe they can even work with you as well?

Absolutely. And that's the key. Coaches, especially trauma informed coaches that have been through it like you and I are a huge factor. Therapist. There's times that if I see an issue in a client that although I can and will help that client, there may be something going on that I will recommend. You probably should talk to a therapist because I'm not a licensed therapist and I know my lane. I think you need both. Yeah, you need. Because I bet therapy, coaches, coaches have been such a value in my life and even people that are close to me and accountability. I had to learn, as did you, to not only set boundaries on others, to have a healthy business and a healthy mental state for myself to be. To enjoy life, but I had to put boundaries on myself and keep my promises and my boundaries and start teaching my brain it could trust me to follow through when I say so. If I say I'm not going to answer emails on the weekend, then I'm not going to answer emails on the weekend. And I'm going to value the fact that I am giving myself permission to. To enjoy the time off and not feel like I always have to be on.

Yeah. So that's powerful. I love that. Where can people find more information on what. What you do and what you offer?

Well, you can find me on my website, and that's Angie Roars like a lion. R O A r s dot com and there's lots of different things you can see there. Various aspects from business coaching to spiritual training, even relationship and narcissistic teachings that I do. And of course, you can find me on social media, on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok. So. And it's Angie roars on. On TikTok. You can't miss me. The. My name is Roar, but it's not spelled like a line. But I'm pretty loud and tenacious, so I just go.

I love it. This is awesome. Thank you for being here. And listen, if this has helped you. Those that are listening to this podcast, share this episode with somebody. This is a message that I think needs to get out to as many people as possible, especially if they are coaches or even if they are not. Just how to know how to set boundaries, how to be confident, how to be a powerful person, yet still walk with integrity, kindness, being somebody that. Being really the person that you want to be and becoming your best self. And I think that that's really what Angie's helping people do, and that's what's incredible right here. So thank you for being here. I appreciate it.

Well, thank you for having me. Like I said, it's been an honor and a pleasure.

All right, enjoy your life, everybody.

Yeah.

And we'll talk soon. Have a good one.