What Oral Roberts Told His Pastor Would Amaze You

He said to me, I was at his home, and he said, I love you. I love your preaching. Because we would sit and talk for hours about the Bible. And he said, but my time is soon. I will not be here long. And he felt like he had 6 months, and he was really right on the, right on the day almost. And he said, I have things that I don't want to take to my grave. Do you want them?

Oral Roberts was a pioneering Christian evangelist who helped bring charismatic Christianity into the global mainstream through mass crusades and television ministry. Known for his healing ministry, he preached that God is a good God who desires to heal the whole person— spirit, soul, and body. Through widely attended healing meetings, prayer broadcasts, and bold faith teaching, countless people testified to physical healing, and renewed faith. His legacy continues worldwide through Oral Roberts University and ministries shaped by his message of faith, expectancy, and God's supernatural power. On the latter years of Oral's life, Phil Muncy, chairman of the Champions Network and a dear friend of David's, had the opportunity to pastor Oral and develop a strong friendship with him. On this episode of The Encounter Podcast, Phil Muncy takes the time to share personal stories and memories of Oral Roberts.

One of the angles about your life that not many, relatively not many are aware of is the fact that you were the pastor, at least in the final season of his life, of the one and only Oral Roberts.

Hmm.

And so on this podcast right now, we're gonna dedicate some time to talking about the life, the legacy, your relationship with Oral Roberts, as well as the different lessons that were kind of thrown on throughout that timeline. How did that relationship with Oral Roberts begin? What was that connection like when you made it? And how did it first begin to impact your life?

Well, thank you. First of all, it's great to be with you. I have highest respect for you. As it's coming up on January 24th, would be his birthday. And I think honoring him is appropriate because I see so much similarities in you and him. I feel like this is very significant to interact and to share these stories. So, uh, the official story that kind of, uh, set the tone for my relationship with, uh, Oral Roberts, he had come and visited our church, him and Evelyn, uh, and he would come often. But I will never forget the day that he came, and Evelyn had already passed, but she was always respectful to Jeanne and myself. And, uh, you know, we felt like we were his pastors, but we never assumed that. One Sunday morning, he came up to me after church and he said, uh, let's get this straight. This is my church. I'll be here every Sunday at 11 o'clock. You're my pastor. Now let's go to In-N-Out Burger. It's my treat.

That must have been surreal, Oral Roberts telling you that.

No, and that— yeah, exactly. I was like, whoa. And then now Fast forward an hour, and we're actually, uh, in the car, uh, his nurse is driving, so the nurse is in the driver's seat, and Oral's in the front seat, and Jeanne and I are in the back, and actually we have footage of that, uh, because he, he's talking to me about trying to help me with the way I preach. I'm gonna get it.

Oh boy.

I'm gonna get it. It takes the right person to tell you before you believe. That's right. How about I tell you I believe? Okay, that's all I need right there. Uh, but I will never forget, uh, that moment. It, it was staggering, it was, uh, humbling, and it was just, uh, a moment to realize that, wow, I got to walk Oral Roberts, uh, through the last part of his incredible legacy. And I feel that, uh, I've— it was such a valuable experience. And one of the great comments and conversations that we had was the day that he said to me— I was at his home— and he said, I love you, I love your preaching, because we would sit and talk for hours, uh, about the Bible, and he said, but my time is soon, I will not be here long, and he felt like he had 6 months, and he was really right on the— right on the day almost, and he said, I have things that I don't want to take to my grave. Do you want them? Well, yeah, of course. And I said, Oral, not a word you say will fall to the ground. And I tried for that last 6 months to be there every day. And, uh, during that time, I heard so many stories. And it was amazing, David, because his short-term memory was, you know, weak and getting, you know, weaker and less and less every day, but his long-term memory was expanding. So he began to tell stories that, that were 50 and 60 years old.

Well, so like buried in layers of memory.

Yeah, yeah. So like, and sometimes, um, because of his short-term memory loss, uh, I would bring up stories that I know he loved to tell, and he would tell them over and over. It was like the first time.

And he didn't know I told them already.

Yeah, yeah. But it was like Groundhog Day. It was like living it over because I could see the joy. But Here was a fascinating story he told me one time that was just staggering, and that would have been years and years ago. So in real time, this would have been probably 80 years ago, maybe longer. This is before internet. This is before any technology. He was in Africa and it was a large crowd and he had 13 interpreters. So he would get up there and he would say, you know, his, you know, he'd begin his sermon and his big line was always, uh, something good is going to happen to you. And then 13—

By the way, we say that at the beginning of all of our meetings. I said, turn to your neighbor and tell them something good is going to happen to you.

Oh, I love it. I love it. And, you know, and, and there's many things to say about that, but he was one of the first ministers to really project God as a good God, uh, you know, especially coming from a Pentecostal background that he came from. This was revolutionary. He took actually a lot of heat for saying God is a good God and something good is going to happen. But as he was trying to preach to these thousands and thousands of people with 13 interpreters. He would make 1 or 2 sentences, and then just imagine 13 different people. And about 10, 15 minutes into it, the Holy Spirit spoke to him and said, tell them to sit down. And he turned around and looked at all the interpreters, and he said, please take your seat. And then he looked out in the audience, got in the mic, and said, if you can understand me, what I'm saying, raise your right hand. And thousands, the majority of the crowd raised their right hand, and he preached, uh, to that crowd, and I call it a reverse Pentecost, you know, where Pentecost was, uh, you know, different languages, uh, and now here is one language being, you know, being understood by all these different dialects.

That's incredible, and there were 13 dialects at least there represented.

Exactly, and so it was stories like that that just amazed me that were just being drawn from his memory of all the things that happened in his life. There, there's no one in history, and there's a lot of dynamics behind it, but no one in history would have ever had the kind of effect that he had on culture. For instance, it's documented that he prayed for over 1.5 million people. Now what that means is these people filled out cards, and back in the days, uh, there wasn't a lot of hotels. He had a 10,000-seat audit— uh, tent. So people would actually sleep in their cars and they would wait for hours for their name to be called, and then he would then pray for them. And so a million and a half people— Jesus didn't do that, the Apostle Paul didn't do that, it's never been done and it will never be done again because of the logistics of the way things are.

Because he wouldn't just lay hands real quickly working down an altar call like a prayer line.

That's right.

He would sit there like you said, read off a card, and your name is this, and you deal with this, and you need healing for this, Build their faith, pray for them. I've watched the YouTube videos over and over again, and he would really take his time with each individual.

Yeah, it was amazing, uh, both in the fact that he showed compassion and care. Uh, one of the things about Oral Roberts was that he wasn't— it wasn't just about the miracles and seeing healing as much as he had such a compassion for the sick. It really— it, it just drove him And, and as he got older, you know, he was more comfortable to be able to say things like, you know, Phil, not everyone I prayed for got healed. In fact, at one point he said to me, it's possible that 90% of the people I prayed for did not get healed. He said, but it didn't stop me because I— His heart was broken for the broken and for the sick. And, and that's what I so appreciate about him because a lot of times, you know, It's easy to pray for people when you see miracles, but if you don't, that kind of is a telltale of why are you doing it and what's your motivation? His motivation was always because he, like Christ, Christ saw the sickness of the people and he was moved with compassion. In fact, one of the strong things that Oral Roberts put in me was pray for the sick, pray for the sick. In fact, it would really get to him sometimes, David. He would say, why don't pastors pray for the sick? You know, his philosophy was Jesus preached, then he taught, and then he prayed for the sick. And he said, that's what ministry is all about. And so that's the part of his legacy that I so value in you, is— and that is, you're a fantastic preacher, you're a fantastic teacher, you articulate and put things together so well. I'm so impressed with your gift. But you care for people's sickness and their brokenness. You care that people find deliverance and find healing, and that's what just, you know, that's what just excites me about what God's doing in this ministry, and I just would like to see God just really— part of talking about these stories is to awaken people's hearts to say, let's start a reset towards having a passion for praying for the sick and for deliverance.

And it draws a lot of criticism, which is like why many won't do it, but you You pointed out something I think is very important about Dr.— it was Dr. Oral Roberts too.

Sure, sure.

And some called him pastor or evangelist, many titles and hats he wore. But he had so much compassion for the sick, and I think that's necessary because that compassion for the sick has to be there in order for one to be willing to deal with the criticisms that come with ministering to the sick.

Exactly. Or if it doesn't manifest on the spot in front of people, Truthfully, I've been in the ministry 53 years. I pastored, uh, for the majority of those years. I would tell you that a lot of times the reason why I wouldn't pursue a miracle was I was covering my backside. I, I did not want to go after something and not work. What— how would that make me feel? And this is something that I've wrestled with because I saw in Dr. Oral Roberts a passion that was past pride. He had a passion that eclipsed any pride. And that, I think, is the heart of Jesus. It's the heart of this ministry. And it's what I today wanna honor and awaken in every spiritual leader and anyone that wants to be used of God. Let's, let's recognize that healing and deliverance, as Jesus said, is the finger that points to the kingdom of God. Jesus said, if I heal the sick, if I cast out devils, the kingdom of God has come to you.

Amen.

And now more than ever, thy kingdom come, thy will be done. And the healing and deliverance ministry is the greatest dinner bell, as it were, to the gospel and the kingdom.

You said something earlier to me today, and actually you came and spoke with our staff and encouraged them, and you mentioned something about the word passion and that the word passion is closely linked with the concept of suffering. In fact, that's where the word comes from, like the Passion of the Christ, the suffering of the Christ. Could it be said that passion is the love for something so much that you're willing to suffer for it? And if so, would that apply here to Oral Roberts' passion for the sick to be healed, that he was willing to suffer for that?

Absolutely. And then at the same time, it's— the tension is also that because he had suffered, he understood what it was like to suffer, not just criticism, but the actual physically, uh, as you know, if, if those that don't know the story, uh, you know, Oral Roberts was 17 years old and he was dying of TB. Back at that time, they had no cure, they had no way of helping, and so they basically gave him up for dead. He's— he, he basically lived his life in bed, so weak, and his brother, uh, heard about this evangelist, and you'll love this because the evangelist's name was George Muncy. Now it's spelled differently, but I'm claiming him as a relative, and I used to always tell Dr. Oral, I said, you know, a Muncy brought you in and a Muncy's taking you out. And so he—

he—

they put him in the back seat of the car, they drove to the tent revival, and at the very end they basically carted Oral in to the stage and, and Evangelist George Muncy, uh, said 7 words. He didn't pray long, which is part of the pattern that Oral had also. He just said, thou foul spirit, come out. And in those 7 words, he was instantly healed. There was a— he could feel it. His body changed. There was a, an unction that awakened. And what's interesting, I think this is so vital, is that even though he was miraculously touched by God that night, it took about 3 months for his body to literally catch up with that healing to where he was strong enough. Uh, just imagine not walking for 3 months and your muscles not being used, and then you get up and walk. So for 3 months he rested and rested, but God had healed him that night. Well, you know, he tells the story that in On the way there, now this is— now his dad was a preacher, but he was totally against God, totally was backslidden. In fact, he ran away from home, wanted to play sports, and traveled basketball with the coach, and had basically ran away from home. So here he is now sick, having to quit the basketball team, come back, live with his parents, just hating God, hating church, hating all of that. And on his way there, he heard God's voice, one of 14 times he heard God's audible voice.

Wow.

And God said to him, I'm gonna heal you and you're gonna raise up a university of medicine and miracle for this generation.

Wow.

Now, he wasn't an educated person. He— this— these were— these were concepts and a vision that came from another world. Well, surprisingly, he got healed, got in the ministry, but if you can believe this, he actually kind of backed away, got caught in the trap of just being a normal Pentecostal preacher in a small church. and just kind of let that calling go away. And one day God just really just woke him up out of bed and said, you're not affecting eternity. You're doing what everybody else is doing. I called you and gave you a specific calling. And it really stirred him up. And after years of neglecting the gift, it awakened him. And then he was off to the races. Well, you know, he had a 10,000-seat auditorium. tent, and they would go from city to city to city. And David, I can't tell you how many times I would be in a restaurant with Dr. Oral and people would come up and say, are you Dr. Oral Roberts? Yes, I am. My mother, my grandmother, my uncle was healed in one of your meetings. It was actually, uh, just actually staggering. And there was a time where Oral Roberts was on television. Now, this is a time when there was only 3 networks. And to capture his, his ministry of healing, to capture what he did was like television had never seen. RCA actually developed a camera, a very expensive high-tech camera that was geared in order to tape and capture Oral Roberts' tent revival meetings. That's the kind of impact he had on culture.

Now you mentioned while you were talking about his healing, that he sort of modeled the way he prayed for the sick after the Muncie who laid hands on him.

Exactly.

And actually you had mentioned to me earlier today as well that Pastor Oral Roberts had taught you how to lay hands on the sick. Can you speak to that?

Yes, 2 things that he taught me about praying for the sick. One is, and there was a time when I was helping organize and we got other pastors to help me, but God had spoken to me, When Oral could not travel anymore, and he lived in a 2-bedroom condominium there in Southern California, and God said, invite leaders from around the world to come to his house and ask Oral to pray for them and to teach them. So Oral would teach for about 40 minutes, and then one at a time, the people would come up, uh, to the chair he was sitting at, and he would pray for them. And there's several miracles I want to talk about in a minute that happened in that room. Unbelievable. And then, but then he would tell the people, I've already prayed, so when I pray for you, you tell me what you want God to do, I come and agree. And then it was a short prayer. The principle there was, I'm not there to pray, I've already done my prayer. My, my is to make a declaration, is to call it forth. And so he didn't go into long prayers when he prayed for the sick. That was powerful. And then one day he said to me, He said, now, do you want me to show you how, how I would pray for people? Well, I was like, uh, man, yeah, I— of course, you know, what would you say? What— I was like, yes. And so he, he asked me to pull close to him, and so I pulled my chair up close to him, and he said, all right, I want you to lay hands upon me. Well, as I reached my hands to pray for him, he blocked it. He put his arms just like that and blocked me. And of course I was stunned. I was like, you asked me to pray and now you're blocking me. And then he stopped and he said, never lay hands on anyone suddenly. You must create expectation before you touch them. Ah, I said. I nodded my head. And so he said, now pray for me. I took a deep breath and I said, Dr. Oral, I'm gonna lay my hands on you, and when I do— he often suffered most of the time in his, in his right shoulder because he had laid hands on so many people. Very interesting that the very hand and shoulder that he was used to heal so many people through Christ was also his thorn in the flesh.

Interesting.

It was also his pain. It was also his passion. And so I said, Oral, when I touch you, God is gonna take that pain and release you from that pain. And he smiled and said, yeah. And I touched him and I said those short prayers. And that to me was so vital because those that do pray, often we spend too much time praying rather than really touching. He was very big on a point of contact. So the whole idea of create expectation, whether it's a cloth, whether it was oil, rather it was the hands. He just believed that before you would release, there had to be an expectation. And I thought that was so powerful. And the other thing I would say, David, is laying on of hands is one of the 7 doctrines of Christ found in Hebrews 6:1-2. And we don't hear a lot of teaching about, uh, the laying on of hands, but he was very strong in that and believed that when he would pray, that God would transfer his prayers, transfer whatever it is that that God had given him through that office, through that practice of laying on of hands. And the significance of that has always had great impact upon me.

It's interesting. I like what he said, that he, he had done all of his praying beforehand so that when he came to that prayer line of people waiting to be healed, it was just a matter of stirring their faith, laying hands on them, and seeing those miracles. And I've seen many of those miracles just through the VHS tapes from his ministry, YouTube, So I've been able to see his ministry from a more public view.

Mm-hmm.

You've been able to see his ministry from a more private view. So 2 questions here. What's something that people who've seen Oral Roberts only in the public forum, what's something they would be surprised to know about him privately? And what were some of the ways that you saw him prepare for ministry or even some of those insights maybe you saw as he would minister to others?

Well, first of all, as we've said, he, he would do his praying before. And Oral had a, a godly pride, I would say, in the sense that, um, he had a lot of dignity in his ministry. And his latter years, um, he would, he would, uh, rest and pray when I was bringing pastors and ministers, and literally from around the world, uh, into his living room. Uh, we would wait until all of the ministers or leaders or people would get in the living room, and then we would signal— I would signal to the nurse, and then he had a walker, uh, during the time that I was his pastor, and he would come in, but he would stand up straight and tall, and he would walk into that room like a statesman, and then he would go over to that chair of his, and he would sit down, and he would just talk like a statesman. He would say, I'm so happy that you are all here today and something good is going to happen to you. He knew how to get in this, what I would call— I don't know how else to describe it— he knew how to get into the character of his mantle and of his gift. And it was clear that you could see a separation between his humanity and his gift. Even when you study the Apostle Paul, there's times where Paul separates and says, I speak this by permission. where he actually gives us a chance to divide and separate the two. Oral was very human. I can tell you what I enjoyed about being around Oral was he was very human. He was very funny. And, you know, I hope to reveal some of this stuff and yet keep his dignity. But I remember one time we were watching TBN and there was a preacher preaching. He was just going at it, just preaching, preaching. And I was like, okay, this is what Oral wants. I'm gonna sit here and watch preaching with him. Well, about 10 minutes into it, he looked over to him, he said, How about I had enough of this? And so we turned it off. It was like, it was like, you know, I don't want that. I don't, you know, it's just so— his humanity, uh, was very revealing to me because it taught me subliminally, it taught me to separate the gift from the, from the vessel, which I think a lot of people when they are gifted like you and others, you have to know There's a difference between the gift doing the work and who I am as a human being. And he clearly, at least the part that I got to be a part, had no problem separating the two and had no problem being fully human. And I absolutely loved it. And that part, I think, had great impact upon me.

So you spoke to stories that you would share. And as we've been preparing for this particular episode, there have been events politically that have taken place In Venezuela. That triggered, I suppose, a memory or a correlation between that and a story that you have about a gentleman named Javier from Venezuela. And it was actually quite a story in regards to the life of Oral Roberts.

Yeah, it's a movie script and I'll try to do it in a condensed version. But John Maxwell had leadership training for pastors. And for some reason, his office called and asked if I could go to Venezuela, that they had some like 1,800 pastors there. and would I be willing to go and teach? Well, I was just— I was humbled by that. I was like, are you kidding me? John Maxwell's asking me to go? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, then after I said yes, my wife said, you're not going to Venezuela, man, that's dangerous. And then I started figuring why John Maxwell called me. He probably had 100 people say no, uh, but I'd given my word. And, uh, thank God one of the firemen in my church who could speak Spanish went with me, and we went there, and it was powerful. And I would just say 2 things real quickly. When I got up to preach And right before I got up and they were introducing me, God reminded me that at 5 years old I used to say to everybody, when I grow up, I'm going to go to South America and preach the gospel. Now I'm like 50 years old and I'm about to go there, and the Holy Spirit just triggers and puts that in my mind that it took 45 years, but here I am. I'm in South America and I'm about to preach. That was one thing. Then we, we preached and it was amazing, but the pastor of the church wasn't there, so I waited afterwards. I wanted to meet him. So, um, it's a fantastic story. I got to watch my time here, but when the pastor—

No, take your time, please.

When the pastor came in, Pastor Javier— first of all, it was a big church, church of 6,000 people, and Pastor Javier was also a very successful businessman, very much a high influential person in Venezuela, and when I finally met him, I met him through an interpreter, and so, uh, I, you know, he— we nodded and said— and I told him I was from Southern California, and he said to me, he said, uh, You know, say, do you know TBN in Glace? And I said, yes, uh, I know TBN. They go— the Crotches go to my church. Uh, if you ever come to America—

Matt and Laurie had gone to your church?

Yeah, Matt and Laurie were members of my church. And I said, if you come to America, I'll have you on TBN and you'll meet them. He goes— and I could hear him, he goes, oh wow! And I said, yeah. And he said, um, he said, uh, I've been very— I have a calling for healing ministry and I've been very impacted by Benny Hinn's ministry. And I said, oh, I know Benny Hinn. His family, his, his wife and his children, they go to my church. When you come, I'll have you introduced to Benny Hinn. Oh, wow. And so, and then, uh, you know, and so it was kind of funny. At one point his kids came in and he says, when we go to America, uh, we're gonna go, uh, to Disneyland. I said, oh, Disneyland, I know Mickey Mouse.

Anyway, Mickey Mouse is a member of the church.

Exactly. But here was just fascinating. He mentioned Oral Roberts' name and he said, I've been very impacted by Oral Roberts' books on healing. He says, I have a healing ministry. I said, I know Oral Roberts. He goes to my church. If you come to America, I'll introduce you to him. And I just remember Pastor Avi go, oh wow. Well, within a year he did come to America. I got him on TBN. Uh, I got him with Benny Hinn, and he was actually on Benny Hinn's program. And, and then ultimately we went to, um, Oral Roberts' house. Well, on this particular day, I did not organize the pastors. Somebody else did, and it was crowded with 40 pastors in a small little room. So Pastor Javier and I came in and we sat in the back, and we really couldn't see Oral. Now, let me backtrack and set this up. When Javier wasn't even saved, just a sinner and knew nothing about God, he had a dream. And in that dream, an old man leaned over him while he was bowing down and laid hands upon him. And, and this is when his first thought that God was going to give him a gift of healing. And he didn't even know any of these things. Well, then years later he got saved. Years later he would read Oral's books and, and be so influenced by TBN, all of this, right? So now we're in the living room and he's excited to meet the Oral Roberts of whom he's read the books and has been so influenced by. But now remember this, all of the books that Javier had read were the old books of Oral Roberts and black and white photos of Oral when Oral was in his 40s.

Wow.

And as the meeting progressed and pastors left, it made clear that, that Javier for the first time could see Oral Roberts. And he started shaking and he started weeping uncontrollably. Javier, what's wrong? He said, that's the old man that when I wasn't even saved, uh, leaned over and laid his hands upon me. That's the man. He didn't know what Oral looked like. because he was looking at these old black and white pictures. That is the kind of impact. These are the kind of stories that I want to keep alive for the next generation of how God works and the, and the, and the influence. And, and Javier, um, has had incredible— and we pray for Venezuela because he has been put in prison, um, uh, for his belief. And we're believing now that Venezuela is going to change and that God's going to turn that around. But that's the kind of impact that Oral Roberts had around the world.

Okay, another thing I want to ask you about here. And first of all, that, that's just— I mean, we've chatted for hours and I've heard some of these, some of these are new, but it's just there's, there's such a rich spiritual heritage there. Um, but this one, it's— if I, if I give you the, the topic, it'll sound interesting. It'll just be— it sounds almost like the beginning of a joke. And that is Oral Roberts, Larry King, and Joel Osteen. It sounds like, you know, Oral Roberts, Joel Osteen, Larry King walk into a church, you know, but there's a story there that ties together these 3. So what's the story, uh, there?

Well, so, so the Osteens— obviously Oral Roberts was a peer of John Osteen, so they knew one another. I think Oral had even preached at Lakewood. And, and then of course, as everyone knows, John Osteen died, and then Joel Osteen stepped up and became the pastor of that church. Well, before he pastored, he went to Bible college. He went to, uh, school for a year. Well, he went to ORU. But when Joe's fame and notoriety came so quick and so fast, when people would ask, uh, where did you go to school, all he would say is, I went off to college for a year and then I came back home. And so that was it. Well, first of all, when Oral would hear that, that really bothered him. He was like, why doesn't he say ORU? And I said, Oral, in the right time he will. But God was actually giving Joe a lot of wisdom on how to keep things focused. Well, one day, uh, Joe said, let's have Oral Roberts, uh, pray over Lakewood Church and we'll bring our, our camera crew over. So we brought— Lakewood brought their camera crew over. We went to, uh, Oral Roberts' little 2-bedroom condo. Joel and Oral were having a conversation that led into Oral ultimately praying for healing over Lakewood Church. Well, while they're taping and talking, I'm a— I'm just— I'm in the background, right behind the cameras, but I can't be quiet. I'm just like, mm, ooh, ah, oh, mm, yeah. And so while they're talking, I'm just like— I'm like responding to it. And, you know, and Joel has taught me since not to do that, but, um, I couldn't help it. I've done it. And so then they took that tape, and on Sunday morning they played that tape. And I called— or, uh, Joel called me and said, uh, oh man, the church loved Oral. His prayer was so powerful. And then he started laughing. He said, and our church— because they recognized my voice— they were all laughing because they could hear you in the background.

All right.

So I thought, okay, well, that's what that Well, so then now years passed and Joel's going to come and he's going to dedicate our church in Irvine. And so it's going to be on a Tuesday night and Joel's going to come and we're so excited. Now Oral loved Joel so much. And so on a Sunday, uh, the last Sunday of Oral Roberts being at our church, he said, I won't be in church, uh, the following Sunday because I'm going to save my strength. To be there for Joel on Tuesday night. So, um, I didn't see him the next Sunday, and I didn't think anything of it, even though he was always consistent, because he told me he wasn't going to be there, he was going to be there Tuesday. But what I didn't know, that on that Friday night, he had sat down wrong on his La-Z-Boy swivel chair and sat on the handle. And when he did, he lost his balance and fell, basically cracked open his head. Oh my goodness. basically died, they brought him back to life. And he ended up living until Monday. But as of that Monday, I did not know anything. Somehow there was a lack of communication and no one told me. And somebody told me, one of my saints called and said, I just heard on the radio that Oral Roberts died. Oh, we were getting the church ready for Joe. That was on a Monday. Well, I screamed out to Jeanne, get in the car. And we raced over to Hoag Hospital. And I ran up. I knew where he would be. And I ran in and the nurse just stepped out of the room. And I said, what happened? He said, yeah, he, he passed away, uh, just a while ago. We're waiting on the coroner to come in and, and pronounce and do what needs to be done. And I said, where's everybody at? He said, everybody's gone. So Jeannie and I, my wife, we went in the room and for 45 minutes, I, I, I was in that room and something significant happened in that room. And, and in a few minutes, David, I'd like to come back to that story. But here's what happened. So then Joel came on Tuesday night, it's packed out, was crazy. Well, Larry King liked Oral and he liked Joel. So he called Joel and said, be on the Larry King Show. So now it's Wednesday and Joel is on the Larry King Show. And why they're having the show— now I gotta give a little backstory to this. I had a dream in my mind. I'm not sure it was a God that I would be on the Larry King Show one day. I just, I loved TV. I loved interviewing. I thought, I want to be on the Larry King Show. And actually, one of my members was attacked by a lion and it made national headlines, and Larry King had them on the show. And I was to start the first 15 minutes and tell— set up the story. But the Kuwait War broke out, and the first 15 minutes— I had makeup on, I was ready. I was like, I'm gonna be on Larry King. And we got preempted. They told her story, but my part was cut out. And I was like, I was that close, and now he's going to retire. I'll never be on the Larry King Show. He's just got a few weeks left. And I'm like— but on that Wednesday when Joel was on Larry King, Larry King said, I loved Oral Roberts. He said, Oral Roberts was a great man. And he said, now Joel, you knew Oral Roberts. And Joel said, yes, My family knew him. In fact, he said, I went to ORU. I was like, yeah, come on, Oral, he said it. And then Larry King says, my staff did some research and we found a tape of you and Oral, uh, being interviewed for Lakewood, and we'd like to roll it. So they rolled it, and here's Oral Roberts, here's Joel Osteen, here's Larry King, and then I'm listening, and here's me.

Mm.

Oh, ah, yes! And I'm like, yes, I made it! You made it on the Larry King Show. On the Larry King Show. Dreams never die, just our tenacity and tries, is what I always say.

I love that. Now, you mentioned you had wanted to go back to the story where you're sitting in the hospital now. Oral Roberts, according to the story, at this point had just passed away, and you're there waiting for the coroner. Yes.

Well, it was very significant because there was many times that Oral, uh, talked to me about, seemingly out of his love for me, uh, did I want his mantle? Uh, would I— and, and there was times that he, he appeared to be reaching out saying, do you want this mantle that's on me? Well, my theology, uh, couldn't get that. I always believed that when God gives someone a gift, it's God's to give and they can't give it away, and that, um, it's without repentance. And I really kind— I don't think it's necessarily right, but it's my thought that he couldn't give me that. It wasn't his to give to me. And so I never really responded to it. But in my mind, I did know this, that when a person dies, they don't need to take these gifts to heaven with them. They stay on the earth. And now that I would say to Oral, when you die, now that'll be a different, whole different perspective. And so in my mind, I always thought, I hope I'm there when he dies, because that's when I want to posture myself between heaven and earth and say, God, I would love to have what Oral has. And so now here I am, Jeanne and I in the hospital, and he's there. And I actually sat in the bed with him. And he was right-handed and I'm left-handed. So I took my left hand and I put it in his right hand and I held it. I said to God, God, I served this man. I love this man. He doesn't need this gift anymore. I knew that it was going to his son too, a very strong believer in, in the legacy. And Richard has a phenomenal gift. But I also knew that there was room for that to touch me because Oral had given me that, that, that promise, as it were. So I took that hand and I prayed, and I felt the presence of God. I felt the heaviness and the weight of that gift, and it just shook me. And I carried that weight for hours and for several days. And then I thought, what am I going to do with it? And God said to me, this is not for you. I said, what do you mean? I didn't give you this for you. I gave this to you to give away. What do you mean? And I felt like God was saying to me, I'm going to tell you who to give it to, but this is not for you. It's for you to give away. And it's one of the reasons why I wanted to be on this podcast today is because I believe with all of my heart that God has given me the permission and even the mandate to take whatever it is that I receive from Oral, whatever it is I've learned, whatever it is, whatsoever I've learned, freely I received, that God would give me that opportunity to release that to you. Because I feel like there's no other person on the planet that I've known and met that has the heart, for healing and deliverance like you. And so at some point, I want to lay hands on you and release what I feel is a mandate to pick up that mantle and to carry it to this generation.

I would love to do that now.

Amen.

So I'll come over to you.

All right, if you would like— I don't want to do anything that's uncomfortable— if you'll just kneel And I then want to say to our listeners that I do believe in the doctrine of laying on of hands. I believe it's how things get transferred. I believe that Jesus laid hands on the disciples, they laid hands on their disciples, and that everything that Christ gave the disciples has been guarded, protected, projected through the laying on of hands. And so in that moment when I took Oral's hand And then God said to me, this is not for you. It's to give away, and I'll tell you who. So right now, in obedience to God, no emotion, no hype, but just simply obedience through the doctrine of the laying on of hands, whatsoever Oral gave me, whatsoever I freely received, I give to you by the laying on of hands. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Amen. May the gift of miracles and healing and deliverance expand. May his sphere of spiritual authority be enlarged. May his capacity for anointing increase. And now, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and through the doctrine of the laying on of hands, I now Father, release this. Freely I've received. Whatsoever I have is now given to you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

Amen.

I don't know if I've told you the story, but there was a powerful man of God who I'm connected with, and You know him as well. The day I first met him, and I was standing there with another friend of mine who at the time was in ministry. He's actually sadly not serving the Lord anymore in that capacity. And I was standing there with a friend of mine and I met this man of God. As he goes to shake our hands, he just stops and looks at us. And he grabs me and my friend by the wrist, pulls us in, and he puts his finger in our faces. He says, I see the anointing. And he points at my friend, of Billy Graham. And he points at me and he says, and Oral Roberts.

Oh my.

He lays hands on us and we go out under the power of God there in that room. And I remember it for that reason, of course, but also because it's my first time meeting someone who would become a significant mentor to me. And I do believe in the transfer of mantles and assignments. And I know we're all uniquely gifted in our own right and that we all have our different expressions of ministry, but I do believe there's something to be said about transfer and mantles and even cross-pollination of the anointing.

Yes.

Where there's different impartations you receive from different ministries. And so I want you to know that I don't take that lightly.

Yeah.

And I receive it by faith in Jesus' name. And I would not feel right about ending a podcast talking about the life and ministry of Oral Roberts without us praying for the sick. So Pastor Phil, would you do me a favor? Look into that camera and pray for those who are believing for healing in their body.

Absolutely. Well, I want you to know that Christ cares. Christ has compassion. He identifies with your suffering. The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ is touched with the feelings of our infirmities. So right now, I just want you to know the first thing that you need to understand, and that is Christ is touched with the feelings of your infirmities. But though God is touched by your infirmities and the feeling of your infirmities. He's moved by your faith. So I want you to take this, this in your heart, this thank you, Jesus, that you care, that you're touched with my feelings and with my sickness. And now I want you to rise up beyond your feelings and beyond your suffering and behind the symptoms that you're feeling and know now that if you can just have Simple faith that when we speak the name of Jesus, that that name will be your point of contact. That when I say that name and you say that name, and together— it's not just the name, the Bible says, but the faith in that name— you will be healed. And so now I'd just like to ask you to do something. If all possible, use your hands as your heart and open up your heart like this as you're about to receive. Because right now the anointing of the Holy Spirit is here in this room and now is now in and bearing witness wherever you may be. And before that drop, as it were, before that anointing comes upon you. I want you to now turn those hands like this and let go of all unforgiveness, all strife and stress, to let go of all doubt and fear, to let go of anything that would weigh you down and let it go. Doesn't that feel vulnerable when you're doing that? You lose control, don't I want you to let it go. And now turn your hands over again. Now, are you ready? I want you to receive your healing and deliverance right now in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Be healed. Be set free. Be made whole. Amen.

Amen. We could go on, I'm sure, for several more hours, as we've done before over lunch and dinner and time traveling in the car. And I just— it's always such an honor and a joy to have you every time that you're here. And thank you for the impartation that you've made into my life, not just through that moment now, through the laying on of hands, but also through relationship, the time we've spent together, all those words of wisdom you've deposited. I want everyone to know that I'm thankful for you and your life. And so I appreciate you being here on the podcast. And we're actually going to end— you have an audio clip that we're going to play to close this podcast out. Can you tell them what they're about to hear?

Yeah, I, I think people would be surprised that Billy Graham and Oral Roberts— it's ironic that you were prophesied side by side— they were actually good friends and they loved one another. And in fact, one of the great joys that I had was that Billy Graham and Oral Roberts would write each other letters, but their handwriting was not readable, and so they would have to quote what they wrote to their assistants and they would type it out. And so, uh, I would— Oral would get Billy Graham's letters, he would hold it in his hands, I would get the typed version, and I would read it to Oral. Now I tried not to remember anything and just let it go; it's personal.

Um-hmm.

was none of my business, but I couldn't help one line that I read that has stuck with me, uh, unbelievably, and that is when Billy Graham said these words: Oral, I wish I had made friends with younger preachers because all of my preacher friends have died.

Wow.

And I made a commitment that I was going to look for the next generation of, of champions and apostles and prophets and befriend them. And, and you were one of them, because I wanted to tell all of our listeners that you served me. You took me to the airport. Uh, when I, when I think about you dropping me off at LAX and getting out of that car, I, I would tell you, if somebody would have said to me, do you realize who you're in the car with? Do you realize what's about to happen with this young man? I would have said, no, I— he's a nice guy. He's sweet. He's cool, he's classy, but I had no idea. But you served me, and I made a commitment back to you that I would serve you. And this was all taught to me, uh, through that relationship with Billy and Oral Roberts. And so towards the end of their life, uh, there was a telephone conversation that was had. It was recorded, and this is a priceless Beautiful dialogue that Billy and Oral Roberts had.

Was this their last time speaking?

Yes.

So this was the last, a portion of the last conversation between Billy Graham and Oral Roberts.

Exactly.

We'll leave you with this.

I love you very much today, Billy. I love you. And I think about you often. I pray for you every day. I'm, uh, I'm coming down to the end of the trail now.

Well, so am I.

We'll be in heaven soon, and I'm looking forward to seeing you.