Jeremy Zimmer - Co-Founder and CEO of United Talent Agency

Hey, before we start, we're excited to announce that we have a new sponsor. Coffee with the Greats is brought to you by Bixby Coffee. So for season 2, we're bringing you the complete package. We've already been bringing you the greats. Now Bixby will bring you the coffee. Hey, this is Miles Fisher. Thanks for listening to Coffee with the Greats. Today we sit down with Jeremy Zimmer, the co-founder and CEO of UTA, one of the biggest talent agencies in the world. The company grew by representing many of the biggest stars in Hollywood. Today, much of their success comes increasingly from creating profitable businesses and brands around the biggest stars in social media, in esports, in music, art. And overseeing all of that is Jeremy. Compared to most of the other titans we've spoken with on this podcast, Jeremy is almost entirely self-taught. That is, he admits to struggling a lot as a young kid. He was aimless. He flunked out of college. He was even stabbed in the stomach at work, all before he was 20 years old. He shares with us how he started to develop a new toolkit for life When he started working at the William Morris Agency. When he created a training program at ICM, he started mentoring an entire generation of agents. And when he co-founded UTA, he started changing the model altogether. In this conversation, Jeremy shares much of the wisdom he's learned over his 40 years summiting the top of Hollywood's power structure. He talks about what makes a great agent, What he thinks the purpose of celebrity is, and how keeping commitments is the key to a life well-lived. This is a really good one from a man I deeply admire. Thank you for listening. If you're new, check out some of the other living legends I've spoken with in past episodes. And if you're an OG to the pod, please do leave a 5-star rating and subscribe. That helps more than you can imagine. I really appreciate it.

Thank you.

But for now, brew up a cup of coffee and enjoy this intimate episode of Coffee with the Greats with Jeremy Zimmer.

Um, I was born in Santa Monica, California, right down the road. My father, when I was born, was a young television producer working on Leave It to Beaver. I think he was employed at Universal as a TV producer, worked on Leave It to Beaver and My Mother and the Car and shows like that. And my mom was a burgeoning author. She had written her first semi-autobiographical novel called With a Cast of Thousands, and she was developing some notoriety as a young author. By the time I was in 5th grade, I had— we'd moved down to Santa Monica Canyon, and I was going to Canyon School. My parents had gotten divorced at that point, so I had some— a perfect day would look like I would, first of all, I would always, it would not be at school. So I would leave school and I would always walk down to, there was this little liquor store right on the corner of Pacific Coast Highway and Entrada Drive where we lived. And I would get a quarter, I would have a quarter and I would buy 20 pieces of licorice and a Coca-Cola. So whatever the perfect day is, it usually started there.

Okay.

And a lot of the days I would go down to the beach We had those rafts back then, like the, you know, with like 4 tubes kind of connected to each other, those red rafts. And I would either go rafting or boogie boarding on those old Styrofoam boards and, you know, spend a lot of time down there with my buddies there, or getting in, you know, doing other, you know, kid kind of shenanigany kind of things.

You had siblings?

Uh, I was an only child, which was a problem for my sister. No, I had a— I had a younger sister, but, uh, she was 2 years— she's 2 years younger than I am.

And would you say that there were many happy days like that in your youth?

You know, I, I don't remember my youth as being that, like, happy and carefree, you know, because, you know, my parents were divorced. There's the drama of that. My mom was struggling with her own, you know, psychopharmacological issues. It was the '60s, so that was sort of de rigueur. Plus she You know, wanted to be a— she was a writer, so you, you know, you need to be— you need to get all fucked up to be a writer, I suppose. And, uh, so it was, it was a little bit tumultuous. It was not the typical sort of Eddie, you know, sort of Leave It to Beaver kind of a vibe, you know.

Kind of— you said you were happiest when you were outside of school.

You know, I had always— I was a diff— I had a difficult time in school, and I had a difficult time doing my homework and doing what was— I was supposed to do. I had a difficult time paying attention. And I'm sure today I would've been diagnosed as having ADD or ADHD, and I would be medicated. And, you know, I'd be sitting in the front of the class, probably doing really well or something. I don't know.

Right.

But, you know, back then they didn't really do that. So in, in the 5th grade, I went and saw a guidance counselor and the guy said, oh, you know, you're, you're what we call a classic underachiever. And I was so sort of grateful to be, oh, okay, I, I am this thing and I'm not the only one. And the fact that I can't pay attention and can't seem to figure out the Huh. You know, like every school— every semester, every school year, I would start off with so much hope. And I would have a new notebook, and I would put all the little binders perfectly, and the little dividers, and the orange and the blue, and Spanish and history. And I would all— I'm gonna really— this year—

This is it.

I'm gonna hold my shit together. And, uh, I never did. You know, by— invariably, by like October, I had forgotten about carrying the notebook around. It was too much hassle. And so I would just rip out the homework and put it in my pocket. You know, invariably by November, December, I was just too far behind to catch up and sort of writing the— looking forward to the next semester to get a fresh start.

So where— what was the first place where you kind of felt like you belonged then?

When I was like 14 and a half, I got a summer job working at a gas station.

Huh.

Maybe 15. I was like somewhere around there, maybe 10th or 11th grade. But before I could drive, and, uh, I got a job working at a gas station that summer, and it was the greatest thing ever. And it was totally like I could totally focus on it and figure it out.

And excel.

And I could excel, and I could handle all the different issues. And I learned how to, you know, change the tires and do an oil change and, you know, change a fan belt and You know, all the basic stuff of mechanics I could figure out, and I could also figure out how to handle people, you know. So I could keep— you know, that was back when, you know, everything was— there was no self-service, everything was full service. And I could handle the people and the credit cards and the gas and keep everything moving and hustling. I was good with the customers. And it was right off the PCH, it was in Malibu, right off the PCH at Coral Canyon. It's still there.

Did you have— was like the boss A bit of a mentor, or was there like—

No, no, the boss was this old— the old guy who owned it was this guy Cal Bargainer, who was from Louisiana. And he, you know, always had a chaw, was always spitting and like that. And then the head tow truck driver was a guy named Orville, who lived in like a little hotel or motel up the street, uh, and he had no bottom teeth and he smoked— he smoked, uh, Winston 100s. That's when I started smoking cigarettes because all the guys smoked cigarettes. I was smoking Cigarettes because I thought that was cool. So I'm like this little 14-year-old kid, long blonde hair, smoking cigarettes and working in a gas station. I thought, this is fantastic.

This is where I feel at home.

This is good. Yeah, I'm on a path. Yeah.

So, and then what— how—

from, from gas station in Malibu, uh, so what happened is I wasn't going to I wasn't going to school, uh, very much at all. I was getting straight Fs, and this is now my senior year of high school. And, you know, I'm like, you know, pulling like an F.

Yeah.

GPA. And yeah, and I'm not doing well at all, and I'm not going to school. And my dad gets a call from the school like, you know, he doesn't seem to even come here anymore, we don't know what's going on. My dad's like, what the hell's going on? I'm living with my dad, my stepmother, my step— and his and what was my stepsister. And, uh, I was— there was a lot of friction between me and my stepmom and a lot of friction, just a lot of friction. I was a, I was a very difficult kid to handle.

Yeah.

You know, if you asked me, you know, if you asked me what time it is, I would lie to you. You know, I just could not— I just didn't play by the rules. I didn't know what the rules were. I wasn't going to play by them. And I just wanted to do what I wanted to do. And it was a lot of, you know, as I look back on it now, I can't imagine what I would do if I had a kid like me.

Hmm.

Like, you know, I just can't imagine because you just have— there's no, like, place where you— there's no level set where here's what— here's what we're trying to aim to. There was no aiming. I was just all over the place. And, uh, and so my dad, uh, just said, look, we, we can't— we can't handle you anymore. We can't take care of you. This is too difficult. You're gonna have to move. You're gonna have to go back to the East Coast and live with your mom.

It's right at the end of high school.

I'm halfway through my senior year. So, the second time that I felt that feeling I felt in the gas station, I felt it when I started working in a parking lot in Boston. It was the exact same feeling of like, oh, I get this. I can do this. I know how to make this work. And I immediately assumed a lot of responsibility in a parking lot in Boston because that was— I was going to college. I ended up getting into college and almost immediately flunking out of college. And now— and then I was like, okay, I got this wired. And I'm working at the gas station in the parking lot. I'm making a lot of money.

Yep.

I got 12 different side hustles going on. It was all good. And then that came to a sudden halt when some guy tried to— well, some guy stabbed me. He tried to rob me and he stabbed me. So then I was like, oh shit. So now I end up in the hospital in Boston and I'm there for like 3 weeks.

God.

Trying to get my shit together. Now I've flunked out of college and been stabbed, and I'm not even 20 years old, right? And, uh, so freezing Boston. It's free— I was stabbed in November, so I missed the winter. I missed the last winter in the parking lots in Boston, which was really not great.

Yeah.

So just as things to miss, you don't want to work in a parking lot in Boston in the winter, you know, with flesh wounds. So, uh, I missed that, but I didn't miss much else. I got really, you know, I, I saw all of it. And, uh, so anyways, I end up back home. I've been stabbed. I've flunked out of college. I've been stabbed. I'm back home living with my mom, and my mom's just like, what? I don't know what I'm gonna— I don't even know what to do.

Sure.

I don't know what happens to you now. Do you go back to college? That's not a good idea. What are you gonna do? And I didn't know what I wanted to do. And my grandfather, who had been this, you know, calls me And he said, well, are you ready to stop fucking up your life? And I said, you know, I, I think I am. I think so. He said, because I— friend of mine is the, you know, runs the William Morris Agency, and, um, I can get you an interview there. And will you— you have to just— you have to get a suit and tie, and you have to be polite. You have to say yes sir and no sir and like that. I said, okay, I can do that. And I drove into William Morris Agency, and I met with this man, Nat Lefkowitz. He was an elder fellow at the time, and, uh, he just was, you know, I don't even really know what he said. Something like, I mean, you're interested in working here? And I was like, yes, sir. He said, you think you can really? And I was like, yes, sir. And he said, okay. And I don't remember what happened exactly after that, but the next thing I know, I was starting in the mailroom at the William Morris Agency.

Wow.

And again, that was the 3rd time— gas station parking lot, mailroom— where I was like, oh, I can do this.

Huh.

It was literally like throwing a duck in the water for the first time. I was like, I got this.

Yeah.

I can figure it out. And, you know, I was like— I was a— even though I was a terrible student, I was a good reader, and I'd always loved storytelling. And, you know, I liked movies, but I wasn't like a freak about pop culture. But suddenly it was just this great environment for me. And, uh, then that was it. That was almost 40 years ago.

And you've been in, uh, in the agency business ever since?

Ever since.

How long were you at William Morris? And then—

I was at William Morris for about 5 years or so. I, I was, uh, out of the mailroom by the time I was, I think, 20 or 21. Wow. Um, and, uh, I, I was doing pretty well, getting a lot of attention, but then, uh, my mentor at the time, the guy I was working for, moved. He was running the, the movie department at the William Morris Agency in New York, which is, you know, considering there's no movie business in New York, it was sort of an empty—

Right.

Position. And he moved out to California, and, uh, he couldn't take me with him. And so I was sort of left in New York going, well, what am I gonna do now? And then, uh, ICM had been trying to hire me and, uh, I agreed to move over to ICM and be the guy in charge of selling the movie rights to the books that were being represented by ICM. So I moved out here in 1984.

So can you talk to me a little bit just about— obviously the industry has changed, as all do over the last 40 years, but kind of basic bullet points in your line of work. What, what qualities separate the truly superb agents from just the good ones?

You know, I get asked that question a lot, like, what makes a great agent? And it's not always as simple as there's this one defining characteristic, because different agents, great agents, can show up with different characteristics. There is, for some, It's a really— I mean, I think you have to have some passion or, uh, capability or touch for the product. You know, you have to be able to access— you know, you can't just think, ah, this is all shit. You got to really like or love movies and television. You have to have some part of you that understands there's an aspirational element of being an artist.

Yep.

And you have to identify with that aspirational element of being an artist. So I think that's important. I think you have to be able to connect to some degree or another with the pain of being an artist.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I think you have to really, you know, you can't be afraid of hard work. You gotta be willing to show up every single day and go and repeat certain behavior in order to achieve success. What part of—

what part of your work gives you the most anxiety? What aspect?

You know, I don't really have a lot of anxiety anymore. The part of it that used to give me anxiety was really related to the homework. You know, that idea that there was so much reading to do and so much you needed to know.

And if you didn't do it, who was going to do it?

And if I didn't— and I had to do all this reading and I had to keep up and I had to know what was going on. And that idea that there's just an ocean of information, and if you, if you don't know what's going on, you're going to be caught adrift, you know, things can go wrong.

Yeah.

And so the anxiety part is just, you know, it really comes from, do I know everything I need to know? Am I on top of it?

How do you, how do you like to hire? How do you seek out those people that have the potential of those traits? I mean, obviously, I think of the entertainment industry in Hollywood as kind of the big porch light that all— every— all the moths all around the world kind of attract to and always have. And, you know, I know in the mailroom, it's a grueling process, and you got to earn your stripes and kind of those still standing after the first year, that winnows it down a little bit, a little bit.

Right.

But how, how do you like to hire quality people who you think have legs for a 30-year career?

Well, I, you know, I started the training program at ICM and then started the training program here. And for the first 10 years of the agency, I think I hired almost every single person, you know, and hired everyone in the training program. And I loved it. And, you know, there's like a chapter in some book called The Mailroom about— yeah, called My Kids and My Interviewing Process, because what I used to love to do was try to get the— get them talking about movies and television and books that they loved and why. Because to me, the most important part was, can you communicate? Can you effectively communicate your thoughts? Because, uh, in the, in the job we have, you're trying to effectively communicate about how a book or movie or TV show or performance made you feel, right? How you connected with it, because that's how you're going to get somebody else interested in it, right? Right. And so I was always very interested in people's ability to communicate about what they— why— what they loved and why. So that was really important to me. Um, and then I would also look for, you know, I wanted to find the blemish. You know, you see those red— a lot of the times I'd see a resume, just these perfect resumes. I was like, Where's the where's the struggle? Right. What did you overcome? And for me, with my own bias, because to me I felt what I overcame was a big part of my story. No doubt. And so I wanted to, and I also had a huge chip on my shoulder, right? Like if any like anytime I saw a resume with like Harvard on it was like, oh which Harvard is that? Is that the one out in Cambridge? Like I always had a chip on my shoulder about the Ivy League guys who didn't really fight, you know, blah blah blah blah. But really, that was just my shit because those guys worked really, really hard to get something.

Yeah.

And I didn't. And I, in a weird way, couldn't. So I always had a little bit of a, you know, weird thing with that. But, you know, so I would try to create in the mailroom a mixture of people. It's like those guys who just always achieved everything.

Yep.

And then I wanted to get the one guy who's like, you know, went to University of Arizona for 2 years, And then took 2 years off and then got his degree at Loyola. I was like, okay, you just couldn't handle the fucking partying at University of Arizona and you bombed out and then you had to get your shit together, right? Yeah. You know, I was looking for like the truth of the journey that, you know, yeah, as I always say to people, I like to read the white part of the page, you know? And I think it's really important that people learn to read the white part of the page.

Is there kind of a Tactic of interview questions to figure out that blemish?

Well, sometimes it's tactical and sometimes it's straight up evident. Like, so what happened? You just, you know, smoked way too much weed and you couldn't handle it? You know, and you ask somebody that in an interview and they're like, right.

But the ones that own it and then the ones that are able to communicate their passion sincerely are a pretty good look.

Or the ones who I, you know, who just Maybe they don't even know it because that's the other thing is you can go through this life, early stage of life where no one will say something honestly to you.

Isn't that true? Especially here.

Where people won't say, you know what? You've never really lived up to your own potential. And are you ready? And I've said that to people in the area. Are you ready to actually live up to your potential? Or do you want to continue? Because basically, for me, do you want to be a classic underachiever? Someone said that to me, and I was like, yeah, okay, I got that. I'm a classic underachiever. There was kind of a cool bravado in that.

Well, interesting.

Hey, I could do better. I just don't want to, you know. But there's a point where you got to stop wearing that coat, because that coat's gonna, gonna, gonna hurt you.

Do you feel people, uh, still, before they kind of prove themselves, really know the capacity of their own potential? Because I feel like anybody would say, of course I'm ready to live up to my potential in a job interview. And maybe it's a little bit of bluster, but it seems to me that what little mileage I've had in the experience of life, few people really know what they truly offer.

Right. But most people, if they can be honest with themselves, know what they're not offering. If you can be honest with yourself, say, you know what, I've never really I've never really done my best. I've never really shown up 100%, you know. And now suddenly here you are in an interview where you want to say, yes, I of course did it up. But when confronted with the truth of wow, this is a moment in my life where I can decide to change the trajectory. where I can rewrite the diagnosis of classic underachiever and become the best version of myself. Sometimes in interview processes, you want to try to— you want to see if people are really ready to look inside and say, yeah, you know what? This is a moment where I'm ready to to change, ready to really do something. And, you know, who knows whether that actually ever worked, but it was important for me because no one ever said that to me.

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So for someone who's immensely connected, as a CEO of the largest talent agencies in the world, but then also chapter of Jeremy's Children, you gave so many people their start. How— when you meet someone who impresses you, What personal systems do you have in place to maintain a connection? Just in general, are you— are you— will you— will you give a phone call every day? Do you send out holiday cards? Do you even care about keeping all those contacts active? How do you— if someone inspires your imagination, how do you maintain a connection?

You know, I don't have any organized system. I did the holiday card thing for First, before I got married, I used to get all those holiday cards from people and their happy families, and I'm like a divorced guy with one kid getting these happy cards. I'm like, oh, how— you know, I was like, I was resentful.

Sure.

Like, all you people showing off your happy family. So then I got married and had all these kids, suddenly I'm sending out the happy family cards.

So, uh, the original analog Instagram post.

Exactly. But I didn't, you know, I don't, I don't really know how I Stay connected. You know, to me, I don't— I manage to develop relationships and make connections with people, and it all feels very natural to me. I don't really have a system or anything like that. Um, you know, I'm busy.

Yeah.

So I have the stuff I have to do and this— the relationships I need to maintain in the day. And then I have a sort of a desire of, you know, I have like a, where am I trying to get to and how am I trying to do that? So as the CEO, you've got sort of You've got your, you know, you're looking at a template of acquisitions, you know, strategic initiatives, where you're going. And then you've got your operational responsibilities, which is where you are and how you make sure you're maximizing the day you're in while at the same time moving towards the vision.

Yeah.

And moving towards vision has a lot to do with, you know, pursuing Acquisitions, pursuing new hires, developing new business lines, making sure you have financing available to pursue all those initiatives. While at the same time, the operational side is making sure the people you have are feeling good, are doing what they need to do, making sure that the people are working in a collaborative, cooperative, and entrepreneurial way.

Yeah.

Within the ecosystem, managing the culture, which is really, really important. So, You know, there's a lot going on within that definition. And then beyond that, uh, you know, I, I think people tend to do what feels good. So if you have relationships that you get a lot out of, you'll tend to nurture those and pursue those.

That is a lot on the docket for a CEO, especially for one who doesn't feel the pangs of anxiety. All that much. I mean, that's extraordinary. So can we talk just a little bit just about daily habits and kind of how you arrive at that? What, what time do you usually wake up in the morning?

I wake up sometime between 4:30 and 5 every morning.

Automatically?

Automatically.

And are there certain, certain things that you like to do before you get into the office?

By the time I get in the office, I've had a full day.

What's, what's the routine?

So I get up in the morning, uh, early between 4:30 and 5. I, uh, Check my email, check my fantasy basketball.

Nice.

Uh, have a cup of coffee, read the paper.

Hold on, hold on, just, just step by step. Is your phone on your bedside? So your phone's the very first thing you look at in the morning?

Yeah, and I use my phone as my— not my alarm clock, but my sleep measure or whatever that is.

Right, right.

I don't know why I like to measure my sleep.

Yeah, what's that data telling you?

I don't know, it's telling me I was asleep. Duly noted.

Um, and then you're up, you're reading the news.

How do you— how do you— I wake up, I wake up, I will wake up at exactly the same time every morning for 3 months in a row, and then it'll reset to another time. Yeah. And that'll go for like months, and then it'll reset to another time, and there's no rhyme or reason, but it's always between like 4:30 and 5. So it'll be like 4:13, I'll wake up at 4:13 for 3 months, and then I'll click over to 4:48, and that'll go on for a while, and then it'll click over to that. It's just so weird.

And is your mind fairly still early, or does it immediately set off to the races?

I'm up. Yeah, I mean, it's not racing, but it's like, okay, what are we doing? Let's go. Okay, you know, but I've been doing this for a long time.

Sure.

So these are real habits that are ingrained, you know. And I do the thing, go down, have a cup of coffee, read the paper, then I work out.

Then I read a physical paper?

Uh, no, not anymore. I read it even though I get the physical paper delivered. I still read I read the New York Times.

Okay.

Digitally.

Yeah.

Um, and then I get into my exercise routine. And then, uh, 4 mornings a week or so I go to an AA meeting, Alcoholics Anonymous, and, uh, which I've been doing for about 22 years. Then I come back and get ready and go to work. Yeah.

Are there— and so, and so there's no real to-do list system, so to speak, or those are kind of the bigger things that you only step into once you get into the office?

Well, I make a— I mean, during that time I'm sending out a lot of emails, receiving a lot of— I mean, sending out a lot of emails and usually making phone calls in between. So as I'm riding, as I'm going to my meeting in the morning, 6:40 or so, I'm calling office in London or the office in New York Um, and, you know, beginning the day, you know, whatever those international calls or East Coast calls are, and that all sort of, sort of gets rolling. And then, uh, at the same time, I'm returning emails, initiating emails, making outgoing calls, trying to get the day started. What am I trying to put in play for the day?

And is it important to you to have kind of a cultural media diet? I mean, obviously this is very much the hub of pop culture, but actually the question I really want to ask is what kind of culture do you turn to to get out of your head and kind of keep you grounded every now and then?

What kind of culture?

I mean, I know you have a—

I mean, I'm an art collector and I love my art, but it's not like I'll go look at my art for an hour.

To answer the big questions in life.

Right. Right. You know, I, I just, I just roll. I mean, this is my culture. This is what this job and this thing I do combined with my family are the 2 most powerful influences in my life and the 2 things that bind me to the earth.

Hmm.

You know, between the rigor of working every day and having this job and the discipline that that imposes on me And the rigor and passion and love that I get from my family and the— I don't want to say rigor, but the, the habits that that requires is pretty good, you know. And then I try and work out a little bit so I don't, you know, so my, my physical being will continue to function.

At home, what is kind of— what is the— what's the dad special? Do you have like a meal You make for your children? Are you— do you make like a killer breakfast or omelet? Like, honestly, I used to be—

I used to, in my mind, I was a pretty good cook. And then, uh, we got— I got married and we had these kids, and my wife and I was like, kind of, I'm a real, you know, I'm a really good cook. So yeah, yeah, I make a bunch of things really well. I make an unbelievable boysenberry pie, I told her. She said, really? How does that— yeah, I make an incredible boysenberry. Okay. And when I'm gonna make you boysenberry pie, and I da da da, and I go, and you know, of course I don't know anything about it. I get a you know frozen boysenberry is frozen pie crust. I get some boysenberries, da da da, and I make this, but I forget to put sugar in it, and it's really like the worst thing anything I've ever tasted. And since then, I don't really. I'm not really allowed to cook. Got it. Basically, I can make a toad in the hole, which I get to make like when we're. Like on Christmas vacation, Christmas break, or whatever, when I'm home in the morning, I'll make a toad in the hole, and that's about as far as I'm allowed to do.

That's pretty advanced.

I thought it was pretty good. I'm proud of that.

Other, uh, other than telling them, how do you let your children know that you love them?

I mean, we're a very, uh, You know, we do a lot of snuggling in my house. You know, there's a lot of, you know, hugging, kissing. You know, it's a very— I think it's a really warm and loving environment.

Affectionate.

And that's the way I tell them and the way I show them. But the most important way I tell them and show them is I do exactly— I do what I say I'm gonna do. To me, that is the most important thing. You know, that's how I show the people in my life that I love them, is I do what I say I'm going to do. I keep my commitments. You know, I tell the truth and I keep my commitments. And that's how I show people that I love them. Because that's the measure of, you know, that's like, that's how you create safety and warmth and love through honesty and Consistency.

And talk is cheap.

Talk is cheap. And, you know, I grew up where— with a lot of talk and not a lot of people doing what they said they were going to do. Yeah.

Getting back to the theme you said earlier, what is the most difficult choice you've had to make personally to fulfill your destiny?

Well, I think, you know, not the— but the choice, the decision that I made around drugs and alcohol, the awareness that— the decision to accept the fact that I was an alcoholic and the decision to commit to recovery.

Hmm.

I don't really look at it as a difficult decision. It must have been considering how long I avoided it.

Mm-hmm.

In the face of all the evidence. And then the decision to stop rationalizing behavior that I knew was not good for me.

Hmm.

You know, the decision to Keep my commitments, do what I say I'm gonna do, show up when I don't want to. You know, which, which to a lot of people just sounds like what everybody does, right? But for me in my life, that was a big deal.

Do you, do you feel that, um, given what you just said, that, that the stigma around struggles with alcohol or addictions in this day and age is slowly evaporating?

You know, I don't really know because the community I'm in, it's— the stigma doesn't seem to be as significant. Although, you know, I don't know whether, you know, in an environment of all CEOs, whether the stigma is more real or not. I don't know whether at some point, you know, people who are aware of, uh, you know, my history might, you know, I might not be considered for a board or considered for an opportunity before as a result of it. I have no idea. I have no way of knowing. But look, I think that a lot of people understand it. And then the problem is a lot of people who acknowledge their disease then continue to struggle with it and go in and out and up and down. And so people don't necessarily have a lot of trust for the fact that people can and do recover. Right.

It does seem that in the era of hyper-sharing and social media that so many different— what were formerly taboos, My younger sister died from an addiction, and it was also— things were so tied in, but depression and the shame I know that we felt as a family even mentioning depression to people.

Mm-hmm.

And it was really, really, really difficult. And then when you do speak to someone who you feel like it's safe to talk to, an incredible connection is formed. But so much of the kind of imprisonment is almost self-imposed by not just being able to communicate and talk about it.

You know, I really believe that people can change, but I really believe I can't change them.

Yeah.

And that's a very hard road to walk because a lot of times I'll work with someone or, or love someone who I really want to change, who I really think could change, should change, and will be so much better off and happier if they do change.

But you can't do it.

But I can't change them. And I can't— my wanting them to change is going to be of very little effect. And that's— and that can be really hard. So I'll stake my conviction on that, which is two-sided, unbelievably optimistic in that I really believe people can change and do change, and, and brutally realistic, which is I can't change it.

And humble.

Yeah, those two things live right next door to each other.

That's interesting. That's a great answer. Do you think there's a purpose to celebrity? And if so, what, what is, what is that purpose? I mean, you're surrounded by quote-unquote famous people. What is— what is not what the power, but what is the purpose of celebrity?

The purpose? I don't know what the purpose of celebrity is, but I think what celebrity does is it gives a lot of topspin to ideas and opportunities and creativity and, uh, great behavior and bad behavior.

Yeah.

And, uh, you know, celebrity becomes the sort of delivery agent for a lot of things, you know.

For better or for worse, is it— do you feel like it's gotten more amped up since your early days at William Morris?

Well, I think the whole, you know, the acceleration of culture and the way culture is sort of accelerated and everywhere, you know, it's just optimized across Every channel all the time. You're constantly exposed. Everybody's always looking at something.

Yeah.

You know, you can't be in an elevator or in a car or waiting at a bus stop or in a doctor's office or anywhere without, you know, a barrage screen showing you something. Now you can decide to open up an app that you know is going to serve you celebrity crap, or you can decide to open up an app that'll show you the news, or you can decide to open up an app that'll help you meditate, or you can decide to open up an app that'll, you know, plug you into the greatest— I, you know, the greatest ideas in the world, right?

Or you can put all that in a safe for 4 hours.

Or you put it all in a safe for 4 hours. Exactly.

Um, what do you think the world is craving right now?

Um, the world? Well, I think there's so many different worlds, right? I think there's a bunch of people in the world who are craving just safety, safety from the environment. You know, what's the next cyclone that's going to come and destroy our village and poison our water and, you know, kill us? So there's that part of the world. And I don't know, I think that— I think we're all craving sort of like, Jesus, what's going on? Where are we going and how fast are we getting there?

Answers. Yeah.

Yeah.

And safety. Yeah, yeah.

I think we all wanna feel safer.

So on that note, what's your prayer for your children and what is your prayer for this country?

My prayer for my children is that they, you know, grow up— they grow up safe and they grow up with a sense of the importance of commitment and self-esteem.

Hmm.

You know, to me, self-esteem for everyone— I want to say particularly for Girls, but for everyone, is the most powerful fuel, is the opposite of empty calories. And I think the way you develop self-esteem is by doing esteemable acts. And esteemable acts are as simple as making your bed, doing what you say you're going to do, keeping your commitments, telling the truth.

Yeah.

You know, I want my kids to have self-esteem. And my prayer for the world is that we try and— how can we make it a safer place? Yeah.

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