#71 - Accelerating Recovery and Performance: Insights into Elite Athlete Care, Part 2

Yeah, I can, I can imagine that when you get to a certain level and everywhere you go everyone recognizes you, and sometimes you're even being mobbed by fans, that it's nice to have a moment in time where you're just The person that you've always been, and someone else recognizes that. Someone else recognizes who you are as a person, not just your title or your status. And I'm sure that probably carries over too into the elite-level athletes that you guys get to work with, both through USA Gymnastics, USA Racquetball. People always wonder, and when I say people, I primarily mean healthcare providers that are still early on in their careers, those that are students That look to professionals like you guys, and they say, "Wow, I would love to do that one day." I bet he just knew somebody that knew somebody, or maybe he was there at the right place at the right time. But those of us that know you well, and those of us that have heard more about your journey, understand that it's not as if it just fell out of the sky and into your lap. There was a lot of work that went into. Getting to a place in your career where you could be considered for opportunities like this. I'd love to hear from you guys a little bit about what that looks like early on in that career as a sports practitioner. How many times were you having to possibly volunteer your services or check your ego at the door and realize that you had a lot to learn from some other providers you were working with? What was the moment— I know Roger, you mentioned you had a few moments where you were served a little bit of humble pie and did really have to kind of have that ego check. So, I'd love, especially for our listeners that are still early on in their journey, to hear from both of you some of the background of how you really were able to start opening doors to these opportunities and what that looks like, that it wasn't an overnight success. This wasn't something that you guys received a phone call one day out of the blue, one year in practice, and you were like, oh, great, I'm the guy. How did, how did this all evolve?

So for me, a lot of it was some personal growth, battling with a, what I would say, like, a little bit of imposter syndrome. I always was reactive because I was not confident in my skills. So I put on this where I was I was a— I put on like I was better than what I was. And through different interactions with people who, who actually knew what was going on, that's where my humility was put into play. And I tell you, once I became humble, there's a difference between being arrogant and confident. I was humbled because I was not confident. So I was Portraying myself maybe a little bit more on the arrogant side of trying to hide my deficiencies. Now I accept my deficiencies and go, let's learn about this. Let's, let's be the best me that I can be. And I take it one day at a time. But for me, as far as my journey, once I developed that and Knew that that's something I had to work on. My— I knew that I wanted to work with the elite athletes and people were like, other practitioners, you should look into this X, Y, and Z. And I looked into it and then I just, I came in with open eyes, open ears, and just wanted to work as a team and just let my body of work speak for itself. And that's, again, that's what I do is just, I usually am over humble, I guess, because I don't always talk about myself or brag about myself or anything like that anymore. I just do my whatever's in front of me, whether it's folding a towel, stretching a hamstring, massaging a foot to Just sometimes listening. That's how I practice. And people, practitioners, athletes, administrators, they see that and they're like, that's someone that we want on our team. They're confident, silent confidence. But for me, I went into, I applied and I'm not afraid to volunteer, volunteer my time. There is at some point you have to present a value in yourself of like we've been volunteering doing these things. There needs to be some type of maybe financial discussion and such, but volunteerism is what is key with some of these organizations that I've been involved with, and I working with the Olympic. movement has been something— I mean, how greater is that in being able to work with elite athletes from other countries, your country, the United States, as well as the other countries, and just seeing them success and be successful? It's an amazing and heartfelt experience for me. And I know that Todd has a very unique And I love his story as well.

I'll get to my story in a minute, but I want to reinforce something that Roger said there, and I'll kind of interpret it in the way that I heard it is Roger's a team player and he knows his space within the team. I know my space within the team, and because we know each other in that way, we have no problem recommending each other when an opportunity comes up for us to serve on a team. Last year, Roger asked me to work with him at a tournament for USA Racquetball because he knows what my lane is. He knows I'll stay in my lane and we can work together well. And when I have opportunities to get Roger involved in things such as with USAG, because I know who he is and I know he's willing to serve. And like he said, if there's something in front of him, he'll pick it up and do it. There's no talk about What am I going to get out of this? It's just, he puts his nose to the grindstone and he gets to work. So I think that's an incredibly important lesson for people that are looking to get into this is one, the volunteerism that Roger talked about. We don't get paid for some of this stuff. When I first got started, and I know Roger was the same way, we don't get paid for the work that we do field of play in some instances. The number of marathons I worked, the bicycle events that I worked, I didn't get paid for those. It was just accumulating experience and letting people see that I do know what I'm talking about, that I am different with my skillset and trying to get people to understand what I'm bringing to the table. But yeah, I wanted to reinforce that part. As far as my portion of the story goes, it's a little bit circuitous. When I went into college, my full intention was to be a physical therapist. Because of the time that I had spent in and out of physical therapy, I discussed my brief time with working with an athletic trainer for my injury, but there are plenty of other injuries that I had to work through with both ATs and PTs. So my intention was to go into physical therapy because I wanted to go into private practice afterwards and found out pretty quickly when I got to Toledo that you can't do football and physical therapy at the same time. So I elected to go the kinesiotherapy route because it was still entrenched in rehabilitation. And I'm glad I did it. I got a good background in rehabilitation and a bit in diagnosis, also in assessment and testing. So I laid a bit of a foundation there that eventually transitioned me into owning my sports performance gym in Charlotte, North Carolina. And this is where I get to have a little bit of fun because I was able to pull in some of my old Toledo friends and resources. So that was kind of my foray into elite-level sports. When I opened up my, my gym in North Carolina, one of my former high school and college teammates, Brock Kreitzberg, was on the hunt for an NFL career and then quickly transitioned into elite-level bobsled for Team USA, ending up in a couple of Olympics, which I was able to participate with him in at that time. Another friend of ours came down and trained. He's a A very accomplished CFL athlete, Mace Freeman. Roger, I know you know all these names.

Mm-hmm.

They came down and were training with me there. So they were kind of my first foray into elite-level training for athletes. Got to work with several NFL athletes. So it, it, it kind of allowed me, as Roger said, to cut my teeth in that place to learn the strength and conditioning and the training side of it. And then I realized that I wanted to add A bit more back into that gym by adding a sports medicine component to that. So that led me into chiropractic school. But very long story short, my time with, with Brock when he made it to the Olympics gave me a lot of invaluable experience that served me after I got out of chiropractic school. And it's kind of strange that a couple of guys from flat Ohio were working on getting him to slide faster down an icy mountain, which we were totally unfamiliar with. But that turned into something great when I got to Texas Chiropractic College and one of the students there, Dr.— she's now a chiropractor, Dr. Sean Adagun. She was the pilot for the Nigerian bobsled team, of which I was able to attend the 2018 Games with. And also met Mr. Anthony Watson, who was the first Jamaican skeleton athlete to compete at the Olympics as well. So I've— right place, right time. And I think that's the point I'm trying to make here is, like you said, Jess, it didn't fall into my lap. I had to work for the opportunities and also be in the right place. I was fortunate enough to work with Roger at the World Games last year where I met Taryn Moore, who is the medical director for USAG, and she graciously brought an athlete or 2 over to me and networked with her and said, hey, look, if you ever need anything, I would love to participate in any way that I can with USAG. And got a phone call a couple of months later. So it literally is about putting your time in, doing the work, and networking with people to show, one, who you are, but also to show your value. So I think it's incredibly important for the people that are listening to this, that just because you have the degree, just because you have the knowledge doesn't necessarily mean that people are going to come to you. You've got to put that stuff out there and make yourself available for free work to volunteer, but also to be willing to have conversations about what you provide. So that was kind of a long-winded answer there, but yeah, that's, that's my story.

Well, and it's, it's interesting in the business trainings that I do, we always talk about this principle and, and I, I heard this phrase once and I, I love talking about it. It's the learn it or earn it principle, right? So, you have the learn it component where you use education, whether that's through degrees, certification, continuing education to learn new skills and improve professionally. But then you also have the earn it component, right? Which is where you do the time, you do the work, you gain the experience. And this translates across professions, across healthcare specifically, in a huge way because the care that you provide has to involve both of those components in order for you to continue progressing professionally. If we were to look at a pie chart, and I'm going to ask this for each of you to answer, if you were looking at a pie chart and you could, from a 30,000-foot perspective, give a percentage in terms of What percentage is your earn it and what percentage is your learn it that you've utilized to get to the level that you currently have achieved professionally? So, are you an 80% earn it, 20% learn it, or a 60/40, a 50/50? What would you say has been kind of your spread from the learn it side and the earn it side as you've progressed through your career?

That is such a tough question because we're, we're making the assumption that those two are mutually exclusive. And I'll use this example. I think you have to have the foundational learn it part where you demonstrate that you have a proficiency that allows you to at least be in the room, right? But then there's the earn it part. So I'll say Let me call it 20% learn it, even though it probably is higher, because I want to give the value to the earn it part. When I'm out and earning it, I'm still learning. So this last, this last competition that I was able to work with both Roger in France and then carry over to England for World Championships, I learned so much. Working with Roger and another one of the athletic trainers that was there, and then popping over to England to work with one of our medical doctors, a doctor of osteopathy, as well as one of our mental health specialists and another AT/PT. Actually, we had 2 ATs there. So the reason I'm kind of saying I can't give a direct distribution is because I'm still learning. While I'm earning. But you have to have that foundational level of learning to be in the room so that you can continue that education. Again, I tell my patients or my students this all the time. They think that once they get out of, out of school, out of chiropractic school, that their education is over. And I say, oh, contraire, that's where it begins. Your education begins because now you've got to get out there and learn while you earn.

That's a great, that's a great point there. Roger, would you agree?

I don't know how to follow up with that because Todd, that, that's, he nailed it. I mean, you have that foundation. Let me reiterate, you have the foundation to get your foot in the door, but then you got to keep your, you got to keep your foot in the door. You got to be able to earn your way to stay in the room, if you will. And if you never stop learning. I mean, you never stop learning. There's always something to be learned. Every, every opportunity, every exposure, every experience, every conversation, you're learning. And the way you— I think maybe you interpret that learning opportunity is the way you also helps earn your, your place at the table or stay at the room. Yeah. So it's very hard to say 80/20 or whatever. There's phases. Initial, you gotta learn it and then you get it midway from there. Then you're earning it all the way through. So yeah, great job, Todd. Great explanation.

Yeah, I would agree with that too. And I've heard that from several practitioners I've spoken with over the years. It's really hard to separate the learn and the earn, especially as you continue to progress throughout your career. How important is it for both of you to continue on the education side and to continue taking courses, investing in yourself and in your clinical skills professionally in that way? And how beneficial has that been in helping you treat athletes better and improving your clinical skillset so that not only are you out there doing the work, but then you're also bringing something new to the table? At each event that you're continuing to focus on. As Todd, you mentioned earlier, really looking at the research and what's coming out now, but then also taking courses, getting certifications, like progressing and taking that time to prioritize your education so that when you do come back to treat athletes again, that when you do have that next event, you're coming to the table with a continual focus on being innovative with the treatments that you're providing?

Oh, for me, that's an easy one. And this is where I got to give Roger some credit because that's kind of how he and I reconnected after college. So I graduated in 1998, which seems like centuries ago, probably for some people that are listening. And Roger, I think you were '96, if I, if I remember correctly.

Yes. Yes.

But Roger and I stayed in contact afterwards. For a long time, but he came to learn from me at one of our Factor courses in Atlanta in 2015. So one, it speaks to the importance of continuing education, but also back to what Roger was saying, his humility in allowing somebody that's younger than him, he had far more experience than me in training rooms, so to speak, but it demonstrates his willingness to learn and want to learn something unique. And I was Eternally grateful that he felt like I had something that he could learn from me. But yeah, I think it's incredibly important. That's why I place such a high emphasis on continuing education. That's also why I decided to work within chiropractic education and actually teach at a chiropractic school. I think that the learning part is so incredibly important. And personally, I'm incredibly grateful that Texas Chiropractic College allows me to travel the way I do so that I can go gain that learning experience while I'm earning to kind of round that back out so I can pass that on to the next generation of providers. So I think it is important to continue our education. There's a couple of things that Roger's getting into. I hopefully he'll talk about his reflex technique that he likes to use, but yeah, I'm constantly on the hunt for the, I don't want to say the shiny thing because I think those are fads, but the, the evidence-based guideline approved treatments that we can use to help improve the performance of athletes. So I'm forever looking for ways to improve myself so that I can improve both the education of my athletes, but also the education of the students that I work with too.

For me, I just, I want to be the best version of me and be the, provide the best care that I possibly can. For the person that's in front of me. And one of my— I think it was Theodore Roosevelt— people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. But knowledge is power. And just because you have a hammer, not everything's a nail. I know that's a lot of analogies, but staying on the cutting edge and trying to stay abreast of what's going on. I I think Todd maybe is more of a really a true research-oriented. I'm, I read research, but not to the extent that Todd does, which settings and personal timeframes and things that come into play and come into factor with that. But I wanted to find how I can help the person the fastest. And safest way possible. And he briefly mentioned one of my game changers for my career was being introduced to PERT, which is Primal Reflex Release Technique.

Mm-hmm.

It is a version of neuromuscular manual therapy. It's all science-based, evidence-based, but it's hands-on approach. And it unlocked for me how amazing and how strong the nervous system was. And it's basically, it's unyielding control over everything. So find little rabbit holes and pathways that you just gravitate towards. And mine is neuro-related. So I have all of these different Neurological approaches, neurodynamics, PRI, DNS, PERT. And what Todd didn't allude to was not only have I gone to one factor course, I've gone to 2. Because as I learn new techniques, new modalities, I also— there's no shame in revisiting and making sure that you are staying the course with what you're wanting to do. And what Factor really helped me do was put all of these tools together so that I can have a system for progression. And with that, that has been my game changer, and I'm forever grateful for that.

Thanks, Rog.

Oh, absolutely. You deserve every bit of it. Thank you. So go ahead.

No, I appreciate you saying that about Factor. And clearly, I can take no credit for the education side of things. I just, I run the business piece. The clinical knowledge that is imparted in each of the classes, the mad scientists, if you will, behind the Factor Rehab system are an amazing group of healthcare providers and sports Chiropractors that really kind of put that system together in such a way, and and that's what we try to encourage and really communicate both to providers that have been in practice for many years or for students that are just trying to figure out still what type of provider they want to be and what they want their patient treatment to look like. We try to really emphasize that Factor is a true system, and it as you mentioned before, every just because you have nails doesn't mean. The hammer is always going to be the tool that you're going to use for that. That every patient is an individual and you need to have a variety of different tools in your clinical tool belt that you can utilize for the specific patient that's in front of you at that time. But being able to do a great assessment, being able to really zero in on specifically what's going on with them and the best course of action to move forward with is critical. Now, I know that many of you are— that both of you have worked with many athletes at the pro and the elite level. Talk to me a little bit about how important it has been to have a grasp of assessment, to have a really great grasp of being able to have a high level of clinical decision-making when it comes to treating these athletes with USA Gymnastics, with US Racquetball. How important is it that you can really think quickly on your feet and then be able to have an assessment that you feel confident in when you go into those treatment situations with these athletes at such a high level?

Yeah, I think that's a time-based question because early on when you're a newer practitioner or newly minted, assessment is your greatest resource because that's what gives you the majority of the information you need To make decisions. And that's not to disqualify that the older practitioners don't need to use assessment. But as you gain experience, you start to recognize patterns in injuries. You know that the way an athlete fell or the way that they got hit, what you're likely looking at. But as a newer practitioner, you may not be able to interpret that real-time information as quickly. And therefore, the assessment component is absolutely vital. directed assessment that doesn't necessarily take as much time because your experience helped you recognize how that injury happened so that you can do a much more directed and individualized assessment.

Assessment is key. And like Todd said, the exposure to different experiences, different injuries as they happen in real time, you develop An approach and you don't just discard anything, but you're, you're listening with your hand. You learn to— the more you can assess, the more you learn to trust your hands, your eyes, and your ears. So what you listening with your hands, you're feeling something, but the athlete may be saying something or not saying something. And then obviously what you're seeing, you're seeing gasps, grimaces. And I like to tell a lot of clients, I watch their eyes. Because in my opinion, the eyes don't lie. They will tell me when someone's trying to supplant, like, that didn't hurt, that I'm okay with that. Their eyes reflexively won't— they will not lie. So developing a process for the assessment is critical. And I can't express that enough.

Well, and it's interesting too, thinking about the timeframe that you all have to work with these athletes when they're at an event and how quickly you need to assess and how quickly you need to zero in on what's going on. Do you find that treating athletes at this level is very different than in your private practice treating amateur athletes? If so, how, how are they different patients from, from that aspect?

Well, there's 2 different scenarios that we alluded to earlier. One is if you're working in the field of play, you have to make split-second decisions. Now, for me as a sports chiro, I have only been in a few situations where I had to be the one to make the call. Generally, in most situations, because again, that team role, there's usually someone else that is superior to me from the pecking order standpoint. That has to make that decision. That doesn't mean that I didn't necessarily make the assessment, but somebody else has to make the decision. So at the elite level, there's probably someone else—a medical doctor, a doctor of osteopathy—someone that's going to make that overall decision to have that athlete return to play. But again, it's it's a bit of a mixed bag because you may be the one that. is doing the assessment, but you have to communicate clearly about what you found so that they can make their own assessment and then make their own decision based upon that. So it's a little bit different in every single situation. And that's just field of play. When it's in your office, now you have more time to dissect what's actually going on. As Roger said, you get a chance to feel the athlete out a little bit more. You can make some slower paced decisions. You can do a better assessment that doesn't necessarily impact them right there on the spot as to whether or not they're going to go in. When you're field of play, in certain sports, if you pull that athlete, they can't go back in. So there are a lot of decisions that do have to be made split second. And again, I think that comes with a lot of experience. And yeah, so there's 2 different scenarios there. If it's field of play, it's one set of rules and one set of scenarios. And then if it's in your office, you may still end up pulling an athlete, but now you have more time to look it over and to really pick out the details.

Yes. The field of play is a kind of a snapshot. You have to make sure that it's not an emergency and you have to make sure, can they continue? Can they perform the activity or do they need to be removed from the activity? Like Todd said, some sports, once you remove them, they're done. There's no going back into the activity. So you have to have, at the beginning, you have to know, is this a spine injury or is this— you have to know your medical team that at which you have surrounding you to know, to learn about their strengths. And like Todd said, the pecking order. Working with elite athletes in the field of play, or in the treatment room or the clinic setting. Oftentimes, because they travel so many different venues and different— they're working with so many different clinicians and such that sometimes you have maybe one or two chances with them, or they don't know you. So You have to be very, I guess, unbiased. You have to show empathy and emotion, but at the same time, be very spot on with your assessments and treatments and decision-making with them. Because sometimes with these, the elite-level athletes, you make an unpopular decision and you lose some trust. And what I'm saying by unpopular decision is Being— ends up being, say, the wrong decision in a sense. So you have to— you better know your stuff.

Oh yeah.

You have to know your assessment skills and be confident with it. And if you don't, again, this is where humility comes in. If Todd and I are working together and I'm like unsure of something, I'm like, Todd, this is what I'm seeing. This is what I'm interpreting. This is what I'm assessing. Can I get another set of eyes and ears on this? And I'm telling you, athletes will trust that and appreciate that more than you can imagine as well.

Well, and that's key, I think, that collaborative care aspect. And I know, having known about Todd's experience, both now working with USA Gymnastics, where you do have a strong clinical team that's supporting these athletes, and as he mentioned earlier, from every aspect, you have the clinicians that are treating them from a physical health and performance aspect. You also have mental health staff members that are helping to make sure that mentally and emotionally they're in a great place for competition. But I know, Todd, you've also had experiences with other elite-level athletes that just didn't have that circle of support. Typically, it's a funding issue. Sometimes it's an infrastructure issue, depending upon the specific— Organization that is managing the athletes. How important and how beneficial has it been for the athletes that you've worked with that have that support team versus the times where you've worked with athletes who did not have a strong clinical support system that they could look to for care physically, mentally, and otherwise?

I think it comes down to how it extends that athlete's ability to reach their, I'll call it their baseline level of performance and then improve performance beyond that. So to speak to your question, the athletes that do get access, and by access that could be full access, meaning they're in residence at an Olympic training center or they have access because they have the means to pay for private physical therapy, chiropractic, athletics, or whatever the case may be, the athletes that have access generally have the guidance to allow them to accelerate a bit faster. The athletes that don't get access, again, this is just my experience, generally tend to kind of have to put it together themselves, which extends the amount of time it takes for them to get back to baseline. There are a couple of athletes, as you've mentioned, that I've worked with that prior to working with me, or I gain access to them, had to rely a lot on the internet. And usually that is just an absolute hole to go down for information. They're trusting people that they don't know, giving information on the internet that may not be valid at all, or even if it is valid, they don't know how to interpret the information to make it applicable A lot of times athletes that don't have access will go to YouTube or Instagram or some influencer about specific exercises or treatment modalities that they have found useful. And then they try to overlay that on their own injuries and end up making themselves worse because they didn't know how to interpret that information. Maybe that modality wasn't at all what they needed and set themselves back, or they tried to do an exercise that made them worse. So it's a very hard thing to answer because the athletes that have access are definitely at an advantage. And it's a very hard thing to sort out for the athletes that don't have access because there's usually some mitigating circumstances. Many times it's financial as to why they can't get that access. So I have really tried to make it one of my goals and kind of my missions as a provider that Even if they don't have the financial resources, that if I can provide some value to them from a rehabilitation or performance standpoint, as long as they're willing to do the work, I try to give that information to them. So, but there is definitely a disparity that goes back to what we were talking about earlier with access for, for athletes to field of play healthcare. It's, it's just not there in many places. And it's an absolute travesty. As much as America and the world loves their sports, it's just not emphasized enough the care that the athletes need to perform.

Yes. And I would say that that carries over into, as you mentioned, hometown USA or small town USA, where you may have a team that just doesn't have access to even an athletic trainer at their local hospital system that could possibly come over and assist them that A lot of times you end up having a coach or a parent that runs out on the field when someone gets injured and without any type of clinical background tries to assess whether or not that player can continue on. Roger, I know that's something that is also near and dear to your heart, and that's something that I've— from my workings with NATA, I know that is a big mission of that national organization as well, is to make sure that every athlete has access to Have you also kind of experienced that in your clinical practice in that sometimes there are patients that come to you and had they had care on the field, had they had someone when the injury first occurred, it could have made a huge difference in how their career progressed?

Oh, absolutely. Not even how their career has progressed, but quite honestly, had they had someone there that's qualified to assess and evaluate and treat, they honestly, they may not have had to have come to see me. They could continue. They could have continued with activity or their return would've been much faster. I've seen too many athletes that have Got derailed and they, they tried to YouTube or so forth. And, or better yet, here's an example for you. They don't have immediate care. So they go in the next day or the following day and they, they go to an urgent care and they get put into a boot for an ankle sprain or whatever. And Based on what they tell me and when they come to see me, based on what they tell me and my evaluation, and I'm working with them there, they don't need the boot. But many times they get put in the boot because they can't see someone day in and day out. And it's not, I mean, it's not a neglect on anyone's, on any healthcare providers. plate on their part, but they don't need to be in a boot. And we get them out of the boot and they're able to return to activity much faster. So there, I don't have the answer to how this is. I'm still scratching my head after almost 30 years in this profession as to why schools and organizations, there are still so many that undervalue having the appropriate healthcare available for these athletes. I'm just, it's just, I'm just scratching my head with it. They'll spend the thousands to new uniforms, get them into travel to hours away, but then it says healthcare and they're like, oh, well, we'll deal with that if it happens. And then there's the ones that I have my hats off to them because they are progressive with it. They are like, wait a minute, if we're doing this, we're going to do this right. And we're going to make sure that our athletes are taken care of. And it's not an afterthought. So my hat's off to them. I applaud them. The other ones, we got work to do.

Absolutely. And that, that's incredible. And I think that as you guys both mentioned, that can make all of the difference. When it comes to progressing through your athletic career. And clearly, in your recent experience that both of you had with working with USA Gymnastics, you typically are dealing with athletes who from a very early age have really had a very strong connection with their body. They've had a strong connection with the way that they move, the way that they perform, because gymnastics is a very precise sport in that way. And Typically, to get to the levels that these athletes are, when you guys encounter them, they've had a very long road with support from parents, from trainers, from coaches, from sports medicine staff in some way. I also know that from what my understanding is of these organizations, that they're very protective of their athletes and they're very— what's the best way to say it? They're, they're very selective about who they invite in to work with athletes. They're very selective about who they invite to the table. From a sports medicine standpoint. Todd, you mentioned earlier that a lot of the relationship with USA Gymnastics was started by meeting one of their sports med staff members at the World Games and then kind of continuing the conversations from there. Tell us a little bit about how that opportunity came about and then what it took to get to the place where they invited you to be a member of the sports I know that was not something to where it was a one-time encounter. She met you, said, you seem like a nice guy and like you know what you're doing, come on to our team. There was certainly a journey to get there. Tell, tell our listeners a little bit about that.

Well, as you mentioned, it started with World Games. I was there as part of a sports chiropractic delegation to treat any and all athletes that were needing care. I know Roger was there working with USA Racquetball. So in, in a roundabout way, he and I got to work together in that we were both there providing sports medicine care. But yeah, it was a matter of me kind of walking around during a downtime trying to identify coaches or athletes or even administrators that were associated with teams to kind of let them know who we were and where we were located. Because we were unfortunately at the venue I was at and placed in kind of a hard-to-find area. So I was walking around and Happened to bump into the medical coordinator for the USA Gymnastics trampoline and tumbling and just struck up a conversation and she brought one of her athletes over again. It just turned into kind of a, a longer-term conversation over the course of that, that couple of days that she was there. But I offered myself as someone that would be really interested in, in working with the athletes and. As I said, a couple of months later, I, she called me back and said, hey, do you want to come do a tryout, if you will? It really involved me coming out to one of the team camps and seeing how well I fit with them. And I was able to gauge whether or not it was a good fit for me. And I fell in love with it. It was a really great experience. But as you were mentioning, or kind of alluded to, it wasn't just a one and done. I had to go out and show my chops. I had to work with the athletes. I had to engage with the athletes. It is incredibly important that the athletes— it sounds a little strange— that the athletes like you, because if they don't like the person or people or the team that they're working with from a healthcare standpoint, they're not going to engage you. They're not going to use the service. So that's incredibly important. That's part of the protective thing that you were mentioning is it's a tryout for healthcare providers. In some instances, you have to go volunteer your time for 2 weeks at Olympic training centers. I had to volunteer my time at a couple of events in order to show what I was capable of, but also for USAG in this instance to determine whether or not I was going to be a good fit for the athletes. And fortunately, so far I've demonstrated I'm capable of that and have also been blessed with the opportunity when asked to bring some of my other friends and colleagues along with us. And that's where Roger and I were again able to reconnect on the field of play to work with USA Gymnastics. And again, I want, I want to really reinforce this point here. I'm blessed to work with them. I do not represent USA Gymnastics in that form. So I don't, don't want to make it sound like I am speaking on their behalf. I'm only speaking for my experience with them.

Well, and I think what was interesting that you mentioned there was that after spending time with them, after volunteering your time at some of their events, then that opened the door for an opportunity for you to officially become a member of the sports medicine team. And then they look to you to recommend others. So the importance of developing relationships with colleagues, the importance of working well as a member of a team, I know is a huge component of professional growth for sports practitioners. So when they were asking you about other providers that you may recommend or ones that might be beneficial to bring to specific events, what made you think of Roger? What— and I know you've brought some other colleagues to events as well. What were those big determining factors for you about this is someone I absolutely would recommend to bring into this opportunity?

It's always what they're looking for at that time and what the event requires. So the first one that Roger and I were able to work was last year at national championships, national gym championships, in which I believe there were about 3,000 athletes that were participating at that particular event. So we needed all hands on deck. We needed someone that could work in the athletic training. arena, so to speak. But then when that wasn't needed, someone else that could provide care to the athletes in between their competitions. So Roger was the easiest fit for me because I knew that he was able to provide both the rehabilitative side in between, but then also work on the field of play as an acute care provider. So that, that was an easy choice. So for me, it's always what that particular event requires. And then I kind of go into my, my Rolodex, so to speak, of people that I want to work with. And I think that's an incredibly important part there. If I want to work with them, I think they're going to be a good fit for the team. And Roger, as I've mentioned before, has always been a good fit because he's easy to work with. He understands what his, his job is when he gets there and has no complaints about it. He just sets himself to work and you wind him up and he's gone.

That's incredible. And Roger, I know that You've had opportunities as well where you invited Todd in to work the event with you, such as the opportunity that you guys had at the USA Racquetball Open last year. Tell me a little bit about that for you. Like when you've had opportunities to have other colleagues come in and work with teams that you are also treating, what are some of those factors that you look at to help you make that decision?

Knowing the person, the clinicians, whether they're a good fit with that particular group of the athletic population in that sport that we're with. The US Open, that was both amateurs and professionals that were participating in this event. And there was, I want to say, close to Not quite 3,000 like that, but it was 400 athletes and I was the healthcare provider for that. And I don't, I'm not a, I'm not a chiropractor. And I know that that is an opportunity. Well, first, the athletes are looking for something. They're not always looking for massage or chiropractic. medicine, chiropractic care. Sometimes it's these spinal adjustments. Majority of them are, let's face it, majority of them are looking spinal adjustments. But I said, I've got the person that is perfect for that, that I come in and provide so much more than just a spinal adjustment. And it was his knowledge with rehabilitation and And the dynamic tape and his ability to relate with these high-level athletes was critical for me. I just knew that he knew how to flow in and out of his lane in an appropriate manner. And I trusted him and I knew that he was going to take care of the athletes the way that I felt like they needed to be. And I didn't even hesitate with it. And the, it was just a good fit with that. I want to like touch on something here though. My start was with actually with USA Track and Field. And I volunteered to do the Atlanta Marathon. And then I got the op— then COVID hit. And I had the opportunity to go out to the track and field Olympic trials. And I worked that. And then shortly after that, USA Racquetball was looking for a dual credential. And they, they reached out, the USOPC reached out to someone and they're like, well, contact Roger. And they contacted me and I, my first trip with USA Racquetball was down to Guatemala for the World Championships. And we won, we took home gold. With that, shortly thereafter, they, they reached back out to me and they said, we don't know exactly what you did, but every single athlete was like, whenever we go on a trip again, we want Roger with us. And that, that started my, my relationship with racquetball. And they trusted me and the athletes. I said, Transitioning into bringing Todd into the US Open and USA Racquetball, when I said, go to Todd, let him work with you on this, they didn't bat an eye. They knew that what I said, then they could trust Todd. So that was kind of like credibility. And then Todd just— well, he— his actions and his professionalism spoke volumes for himself. And the rest is history.

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