Inside Out Livestream: Greg Prince and Ganesh Cherian

I proclaim with all the power that is in me that the Inside Out Podcast is the only true and living podcast on the face of the whole earth with which I, Bruce Reginald McConkie, am well pleased, speaking unto the podcast collectively as well as individually.

Hello and welcome to Inside Out Live, uh, coming to you all the way from Canada. I'm here with the mighty Jim Bennett. Hello, Jim.

Hello, hello.

And Jim, you're wearing a t-shirt. Let's have a look.

What have you got? Ah, there you go. Rolling Stone.

And I've got Led Zeppelin.

Good stuff.

We're having a bit of a rock and roll episode tonight. Anyway, Jim, we have some wonderful guests. Do you want to introduce them?

Well, these are— if you've been listening to our podcast, you, you certainly know Greg Prince. Welcome, Greg. Thank you for coming back, particularly for a live show.

A guest who deserves no introduction. Here I am.

Who deserves no introduction. That's, well, and here's another guest. Both of you deserve introductions. Both of you have been on the show before. Welcome to Ganesh Cherian.

Fabulous to be with you. And I'm excited to be with Greg. It's always a treat. I've been listening to the 3 of you a lot lately because you've done a lot of amazing work. I'm just very overjoyed and privileged to join you.

Glad to have you here.

So, well, this is— yeah, absolutely. This is wonderful. I can't think of 3 better people than to have this, what I think is going to be a very interesting conversation this evening than of course Jim, Greg, and Ganesh. And so, Tonight, we're going to set ourselves a bit of a challenge. We're going to be talking what is probably, arguably, the 2 biggest challenges facing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Challenge number one is retention. How does the Church hang on to its members, especially its young people? And the second challenge, which goes side by side, is growth. How does the Church grow and manage the growth And how does it report progress under that prophetic position that it holds to spread the word with the gospel? So when we get into the conversation, let's talk about, let's just acknowledge, are these 2 challenges indeed the biggest challenges facing the church? I think they are. I'd love to know what you gentlemen think. And secondly, as we get into this, could you, if we agree those are at least the 2 biggest challenges, Can you characterize what you think those challenges are? So we're gonna kick off with our long-term resident and kind of partner in many ways, Greg Prince. Greg, would you agree that the 2 biggest challenges facing the church is retention and growth? And how would you characterize those 2 challenges?

I think they are. You don't have to go back more than about 3 decades. There was a sociologist named Rodney Stark.

I remember those videos.

And he lit up the Mormon world by saying Mormonism is going to become a world religion. And he put membership numbers, as I recall, above 100 million. What he was doing was taking the highest growth years, and there were some Pretty high years in the Kimball years in particular, and just extrapolating in a straight line. Well, nothing happens that way, but he sold that and a lot of people, including those who sit in the red chairs, believed it. Well, here we are now, and not only has the slope of that line dropped, it's almost zero in some countries, including the United States, at least from the numbers I hear about. So on the one hand, the growth that we had become accustomed to just isn't there now. But on the other hand, the people we used to retain, we're not retaining very well anymore. I really liked, oh, Jeff Strong's analogy. Of a bucket of water. We hear that last year we had the highest number of convert baptisms ever. What we didn't hear was, what about the hole in the bottom of the bucket? So that the actual number of retained church members, meaning those who self-identify and who even show up occasionally, has barely budged or maybe even dropped a bit. So yeah, those are hand-in-hand problems. They're problems, at least the retention one, that other religious traditions are experiencing as well. There aren't that many other Christian traditions that go into proselytizing the way that we do. Probably the Jehovah's Witnesses are the predominant one there. So for the others, it's not that they're not adding people, because they weren't adding people before, it's that they're losing people. And so are we. And I think some of the causes cut across the board. I think other causes are uniquely LDS, and we can talk about those specifically in a bit. So there's my introduction. Okay.

Great. Thank you. Excellent context there. Ganesh, how do you, do you acknowledge that the biggest problems facing the church and how would you characterize them?

Well, I've, I've, I've just spent almost a month in Utah and visiting various people and it's been a real treat. I've, I've been really interested in some of the changes that the church has made recently that have Um, that are looking to retain. So obviously from the church's point of view, yes, it's a huge issue. Um, the, the 2 that really stand out is, uh, is of course the lowering of the age, uh, for sisters to go when they're 18 years old. And as I've, I've visited various friends, that's impacting them directly because their, their young women are are looking at going on missions and going on missions quite quickly. And also that's, um, changing the dynamics with regard to, uh, both relationships and also, um, enrollments in school. Um, because of course, you know, lots of people are choosing to go on missions rather than, you know, do that first year of, of, um, college. And the other thing that I've been really fascinated was I did a tour of Temple Square and their new visitor center there, and it just— I mean, it's in preparation, of course, for next year when they do the open house for the Salt Lake Temple. But one of the key issues there is, what is the temple? And they've done this incredible job at trying to show what the temple is as part of the LDS theme.

I don't mean to interrupt you, but did you do the actual tour where they showed you rooms from the temple? I didn't— I haven't been through that. Have you been through that?

Yes, yes, I've been through that. So they take you— there's 2 above-ground temple visitor centers, one that holds the Christus and another a model of the new layout of the Salt Lake Temple. And then underneath that, there's a Um, uh, subterranean, uh, connecting hallway that then, um, opens into a, uh, a production really. You go into one room, you get an introduction to the temple, you go into the next room and it's a, a foyer of a temple. Then the next room is the baptistry. The next room is the, uh, ordinance room or the endowment room. and then the celestial room, and then a sealing room, and then a last room, which is kind of a conclusion or a wrap-up, and then you come out. So each, each of those different rooms you're in for, for about 5 minutes. They're very polished. It looks amazing. It looks absolutely like a temple. Um, but the one thing that's fascinating about that whole experience is there's a real emphasis on the temple and outside in the foyer there, uh, it's lined up with models of various different temples. across the world, but no Joseph Smith, no Book of Mormon, no restoration of the priesthood, no, you know, one true church or any mention of that. So there's— I can only surmise. And the other thing that you see when you first go into the foyer of the mock temple is a picture of Jesus outside in the foyer. There's a marble statue of Jesus. Upstairs, of course, is the Christus that has been moved and put in place from the old visitor center. But then outside, there is a bronze of Jesus carrying a cross and another bronze of Jesus in Gethsemane that is framed by the Salt Lake Temple. So it's a really different experience, certainly one that doesn't that suggests that some of the unique things about the church are really folded into Jesus as the central figure, which is fascinating. So yeah, I think retention's a huge one, and it's one that the church is changing their focus in order to be something quite different than we've seen it Okay.

Jim, what are your thoughts on those 3 questions?

Yeah, so I agree. I think that I've always said the church is not shy about sharing numbers that make it look good. You know, when the church has numbers that say we've had a record number of convert baptisms, we're going to trumpet that from the rooftops. But when you start saying, oh great, well, how many of them are still active a year after baptism? Those are numbers we don't see. And I suspect the reason we don't see them is they don't make the church look at least not nearly as good as those other numbers look. And when you have these sorts of— there have been a number of talks, for instance, we did an entire episode on a talk by Elder Rasband, I think it was. where he was dispelling these myths about the church. And he would say, well, myth number one is that we're losing all these members. Well, the reality is we're baptizing all these people. And, you know, both of those— the refutation does not actually address the accusation that we are losing members. The church very much wants to say, hey, look at this. This makes us look good. Pay no attention to this man behind that curtain. So it's a major challenge, and I think one of the ways you can tell that the church is very sensitive about it has been, I think, the just overwhelmingly disproportionate response to Jeff Strong's book. You've had all these podcasters coming out and just attacking his data and attacking, and then you had an emeritus general authority making videos. The one that says Darth Vader could be your bishop and the culture could be like Alcatraz, and that doesn't matter. You will stay because the church is true. And to me, that is just a real failure of imagination. If that's all you've got is Well, you're going to stay anyway, even if the church is lousy. That is really not a very compelling message. And I had the opportunity— I'm down at Temple Square twice a week, but just this last week was the first time I had a chance to go down into the visitor center. And I looked at that temple preview line. There was this big line, and I had to go into Tabernacle choir rehearsal. I didn't have time to take that tour, but I watched the video and I was very curious as to what rooms they'd actually built. Have they, Ganesh, have they actually built an entire celestial room down there?

Yep, absolutely.

That is astonishing. And so the part that I saw were essentially these, these models of all these temples all across the world. And as Ganesh has, has said, there are There's no reference to the Book of Mormon. There's no reference to the Restoration. Certainly no reference to Joseph Smith or anything else. And you could go down there, and if you didn't know what temples are or temples do, you could come away thinking we were Methodists. I had a conversation with someone who said, yeah, it's really well done and it's really lovely. But what kind of message is it if we say, gee, our church is just like yours? Well, how is that an incentive to join ours? Our church is just like everybody else's. Other people's churches are less expensive and less time intensive, and you can drink coffee and on and on and on and on. And, you know, there doesn't seem to be a unique value proposition. in this transition to mainstream Christianity, which is very much in evidence. The bronze of carrying the cross is just lovely. All of the art is lovely and striking. It's also worth noting that if you wander Temple Square now, and they've just sort of opened it up, you can actually walk up to the side of the temple, which you never used to be able to do. There used to be a big fence around the temple, and you can only go right up to the temple if you were coming out of a session or you were coming out for a marriage. They would take wedding photos there, and now you can just wander up there. But in other parts of Temple Square, there are— there is other artwork that does emphasize the Restoration. You have a big statue of John the Baptist ordaining Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. I think there's a statue of Peter, James, and John as well, or providing the Melchizedek Priesthood. So it's not that they've scrubbed all reference to the Restoration, but the vast majority of people who come to Temple Square are going to be herded into that visitor center and in my mind are going to be shown a presentation That really de-emphasizes the restoration. And I'm wondering if that is the strategy, is the way we're going to deal with our lack of growth or with all of our challenges is we're just going to become more of a mainstream church. And I don't know, and I, I can see some logic behind it, but I can see a really strong argument against it as well.

I was heartened by your, um, your podcast just the other day talking about, you know, the kinds of things that were happening in England and that might, um, you know, go across the world. Um, because I think we have to do something for our youth. Otherwise there will be no future. Um, and, and as Greg often rightly points out, if the church is not good, You know, the youth won't engage in it. They'll get to a point where they're just like, well, why would we be here when there's, when our friends can't be here? Um, one, one of the other odd things that, that happened, well, not odd, but really encouraging actually, is I went to, um, Utah State in Logan and they've just in the last year opened a beautiful, um, institute building just off campus there. And it is incredible. It's welcoming, it's vast, it's got these great spaces for young people to hang out at, to engage with. And one of the things that I thought was really quite progressive was that all of its bathrooms were single-use for anybody who was there.

Yeah.

So, which made me feel like, you know, The church had made this incredible place for young people to hang out with no restrictions, with no worthiness requirements, with no concerns about where they were at on this, on any sexual spectrum. And I, that felt incredible. I, that, and, and you guys have made the point, which I totally agree with, is that we're going to have all of these beautiful temples around the world that are going to be little ghost towns because Very few people can go into them and, um, they're just going to be billion-dollar billboards because they only, um, reward the loyalty of the, of a very select group of people where actually what we want to do is be as inclusive as possible. And that institute building at Utah State is just brilliant. And if we had buildings like that, um, and if we can build more buildings like that, I think we could have those. really welcoming spaces, particularly for our young people who can gather, enjoy each other's company, but also have this incredible spiritual experience.

The first Gospel Topics essay, and you're all familiar with those essays, was, Are Mormons Christian? And they intentionally put that out because It was a yawn. Oh yeah, we're Christian. The irony is we may think we are, but the rest of the Christian world doesn't. And to your points, I think this is reflective of maybe an alarm going off with them acknowledging we're not, we're still not regarded in the Christian community as being at the table. Going back 30-plus years, their initial attempt to improve their standing was to change the letterhead.

I remember that.

And they changed it 2 or 3 times with Jesus Christ getting progressively bigger. And then they added the subtitle to the Book of Mormon, As if that's going to make us Christians. And you look around now and you think, no, that's not going to make us look like Christians. I'm not sure that the church leaders really understand why it is that Mormons are not viewed as Christians. I really don't think they get it. And maybe the reason they don't get it is they've not commingled enough with other Christians to hear what they're really saying and thinking.

Yeah.

Um, Greg, do you want to talk a little bit about, um, President Oaks', uh, appearance in Washington, D.C. shortly? Because I think that's maybe along those same lines and maybe it's a sign of, um, something in that area.

When you say appearance, it gives me an interesting mental image. He will be visiting, but you call that visitation, I suppose, and speaking next Wednesday, week from tomorrow, at the National Cathedral. This will be the 3rd event that was initiated by Wesley Theological Seminary. The first one was 2 and a half years ago with Governor Cox of Utah and Governor Moore of Maryland on the stage together talking about civility in the public square. The second one was last December, again, Governor Cox and then Governor Shapiro of Pennsylvania, once again talking about civility in the public square. This one is on the eve of Constitution Day. And President Oaks will be the keynote speaker at the National Cathedral. It may be the first time ever that a General Authority of the Church speaks in that building. I don't know. It certainly is the first time that a Church president has. He will be followed by a panel, non-LDS, of very distinguished people, again talking about civility, talking about respect for the rule of law. I don't anticipate that it's going to be at anything like a proselytizing lecture that he's giving. He clearly understands both the gravity of speaking in that sacred space and the opportunity that it gives perhaps to put a different face of Mormonism forward One that is more appealing, I think, to the larger Christian community. Stay tuned. We are going to that. It's almost in our backyard, so you can count on us being there, and I'll report back.

Yeah, should be huge.

Look forward to getting, uh, getting, learning from you, Greg, in terms of how that all plays out. I think the best way, or one of the best ways of improving how people see us, is to work together on good projects, on things that are good and wholesome and uplifting and that actually help others. And we've talked exhaustively on the last episode about the opportunities that exist for the church to do that. Its conventional traditional ways of growing have slowed, if not stopped in certain parts, and it now sees an opportunity to reinvent itself, reorganize itself, and become much more strategic and more appealing, I think, to bigger numbers. I think the leaders would be very interested to hear your responses your response to my next 2 questions. So my next 2 questions are, one, what do you think are the things that people— what do you think people are attracted to the church? What attracts them to the church? What do they like about the church? And the other next question is, what are the things that put people off? So what attracts people to the church, do you think? And what are the things that put people off, whether it's policy, doctrine, culture, history? Greg, could you start us off with trying to answer those 2 questions?

Yeah, in the aftermath of Proposition 8, which was the California ballot proposition in 2008 that formally embedded in the, in the California State Constitution, a prohibition of same-sex marriage. The blowback against the church was so quick and so durable and so intense that it knocked them back on their heels. They really were stunned. They had no idea that there would be that consequence. There'd been almost not a ripple 8 years earlier with Prop 22, which was the same wording but as a state law, not as an amendment to the state constitution. That passed easily, and there wasn't a ripple of opposition. But in those 8 years, things had changed, and church leaders were not appreciating how drastic that change was. In the aftermath of that, because of the blowback, they commissioned a major survey nationally I don't know how many questions they had on it or whether they just said, give us words or phrases that describe Mormonism as you see it. There was only one on that list that was positive, and that was Mormons support families. So in answer to your second question, Ian, what do they dislike about us? In 2008, the answer was everything else. There wasn't a single thing that they thought was exemplary in the church. I think some of that's changed now, but I think that probably is still a guide to where we still need to go because we're certainly not there.

Ganesha, what draws people to the church? What do they like about it and what puts people off? Church from your perspective?

From my perspective, it's the opportunity. Well, it's warmth. You know, if you can come into a chapel, if you can be engaged and feel incredible, that goes for, you know, their practical experience on any given Sunday is what keeps people in. It also helps people to, you know, to continue to come back. And the thing that stops them from doing that is that they can't bring their family because some of their family won't be accepted, or that, you know, certainly with the people that I see that are really struggling with the church, it's because usually somebody for whom they love is marginalized. And it means that there is, you know, they just don't see a place for them. And when they can't see a place for somebody that they love, you know, they don't want to be in that place. So it's kind of as simple as that. I often talk about how, for me, the church is true from the stake down because it's the lived experience that you have with the people that you engage with in any given regular meeting that makes your understanding of the church. I know that there's lots of people who might have stuff outside their regularly scheduled weekly engagement, but that's the point at which the rubber hits the road. And for the most part, that's a good experience for people in general. It's just, it can be hampered or undermined by the kinds of things that they hear over General Conference or the kinds of ways that they feel like people that they love are being excluded. And so that's something that we really need to work at. And of course, your discussions with Jeff Strong, you know, that's Precisely what he's identifying and trying to help people to recognize. And you are absolutely correct in your assessment that, you know, while he's doing that, which is fabulous, it really needs to come from a higher level for it to have any effect. And so all of these kind of ways that we are currently trying to retain people will fall flat if we can't actually be inclusive.

Excellent, Ganesh. Thank you. Jim?

I don't know of anybody who has joined the church that didn't join the church because they had some sort of social connection to someone in the church. I mean, on our missions, we would find people who didn't necessarily have social connections, but they were really kind of few and far between. It was the reason why the instruction was seek out referrals. Try to find people who you know because they know you and you have a connection to them. So I think the church's strongest asset has always been its sense of community. And President Nelson particularly seemed to have gone out of his way to dismantle All of that in a way that I think is is part of the problem here because it's there is if you want to come to church just to be social, just to be around your friends, just to feel that connection. You now they've cut the three hours down to two just this last week. They cut the 1-hour classes every other week into 2 25-minute classes every week, and everybody's running around, and there really isn't the opportunity to just sort of chew the fat the way there used to be in the 3-hour block. I mean, yes, it was very long, and I confess that I used to spend Sunday school hours every once in a while just chewing the fat in the foyer. That was alliterative. I thought that was nice. Um, and, uh, but that, that is no longer considered, uh, by the leadership of the church to be sort of a paramount part of the church experience. Uh, I— maybe that's changing. And I think in our conversation that we had about, um, about this expansion of these sort of religious centers. And Ganesh, I'm very encouraged by what you're saying about the institute up at Utah State. I, you know, when I went down to Southern California to put my daughter into her PhD program at USC, I walked into the USC Institute that I had very fond memories of, and it was a time warp. It was, it looked exactly the same. The entire USC campus has been completely redone.

Yeah.

And the Institute looks like it's something out of 19— I mean, it looked old when I was there in the early '90s. So it's something out of the '60s. And we used to actually hang out at the Institute. And part of that was that we felt this real bond of other— there were so few of us at USC that we just kind of felt like this was a great place to be. And that's completely gone. They've dismantled the USC Ward. It doesn't exist anymore. So all of these things just— so I think that's the biggest asset the church has, and it seems to be squandering it. The thing that puts people off more than anything else, I think, is particularly with young people, That we were taught when Proposition 8 was on the ballot, for instance, and I had a lot of family members who were living in California at the time. I was not, but they would go out and they would hold up signs that say, protect traditional marriage. And the message was, if gay marriage is legal, that's the end of traditional marriage. And there was so much Fearmongering as to what was going to happen to the traditional family if gay people, if same-sex couples were allowed to get married. Well, okay, that was in 2008. It is now 2026, and surprise, surprise, heterosexuality has not disappeared, and heterosexual marriage is in no danger of disappearing. And so I think particularly with the young people, the kind of fear that kept a lot of our generation in place just absolutely does not resonate with them at all. It's just you can't scare them. If you don't go to church, oh no, I don't buy it. Off I go. And part of that is that I think the church has lost credibility with them, in that all of these kinds of doom and gloom scenarios as to what will happen if the world accepts gay marriage, particularly, they haven't come to pass, and they don't look like they're going to come to pass. The other element, too, is that the church used to say, and it's even still in the Family Proclamation, it's the man's job to work, and it's the woman's job to stay home. And now we have church leaders, women at the highest levels of church leadership, at least the highest levels women are allowed to have, which is in and of itself another problem, who worked their entire lives and began working at the time the church was counseling people not to work. And so a lot of people look at that and go, the church doesn't have any credibility here. So the things that are most attractive about the church are the least churchy things, and the churchiest things are the most off-putting things. I guess that's the way to summarize it.

Interesting.

I would add to that, Jim, that there's been a, you know, along those same lines, that whole idea about garments, particularly for women. I mean, we, you know, for us it's been t-shirts and, and, um, And shorts, right? But for women, it's been a battleground, um, you know, in terms of what you can wear and what that says about you. And of course, now with the change in the garments and that, and that was something I was very obvious when I was in Utah, um, that people had adopted that wholesale. Um, but that also means that all of those fights that mothers and daughters had over clothing. We were just irrelevant. And those kinds of things do undermine your whole sense of, well, why did we do that? What was the purpose? And for me, you know, like, well, maybe the other one is this SEC scandal, which also undermined people because it suggested, well, while the— Well, we were told our finances and accounting to the Lord was something that we had to be fastidious about. The church could undermine that with doing whatever they wanted. So there are very few options to feel incredibly proud about our church. And we need— well, I think for me personally, but I think this is general, we need something to feel— Excited about that the church is doing that makes a positive difference in the world. I belong to Rotary, and one of their great measures that they took a lot of pride in was eradicating polio, that they as an organization could do that made them feel like this was something amazing that individuals could be on board with and help make happen in the world. And we just don't have anything that we can be especially proud about. Now we've got this war chest, but while we, as you've rightly pointed out, we're building these glowing billboards, we've got this, a lot of people, and yet we give them kind of busy work to do rather than actual changing of communities. And we've got all of these youth who could be doing these incredible things for the world, and yet we're really just trying to convert them, not actually care about others. So it's, what's the thing we can be proud about? Yeah, we haven't delivered on so many things, so many doom and gloom. Can we deliver on some real-world problems like clean water or an end to poverty or food stability or civil discourse or an ability to go— look, the Pope is leading out in strides on this. kind of leadership that we kind of all feel very starved about currently in the church, which I find concerning, but also it's just not very inspiring. Boredom will get us, and that is what's happening.

For several years now, Wesley Seminary has been doing a national study that involves 18 Christian denominations. It's funded by the Lilly Endowment, which is a major funder of religious activities in this country. And what they are looking at is the universal problem, particularly in Christian churches in this country, of retention of young folks. The Latter-day Saints are not in the list of 18. I wish we would be because then we could have some one-to-one comparisons made. What they have found so far is that 2 things correlate with youth retention. One is welcoming, loving, accepting congregations. We've got a lot of those. I don't think we have enough. The other is a safe space in which they can discuss the things that are of greatest concern to them. We strike out on that one.

Completely. Totally.

But there's a lot to learn from that study that if we want to get on a different track, there are some things where we got to do a 180, and that's one of them.

Yeah. You gentlemen have a very good understanding, a very good grasp of some of these issues, you know, these 2 big problems facing the church. Years ago, I remember waking up on a Sunday morning and I just did not feel like going to church. I found it boring and I was just struggling going to church and my wife shouted, you know, come on, get up, let's— we need to go to church. And I said, give me one good reason why I should go to church. And she said, you're the bishop. And, uh, there were times, uh, I, I just— if I— you, you'd be able to relate to this. Going back to the '80s and '90s, before my mission where I met Jim, and after, the church was so vibrant. So exciting. There was dances every week up and down the UK or in Europe, right? I mentioned on our Facebook group, I just couldn't wait till Friday afternoon. We'd all pile in this old Ford Escort. Ganesh, you know what this is, 1.3 Escort, right, man? Little company car. There were 6 of them. You're only supposed to have 5. And we'd drive down from Yorkshire to Hyde Park, or we'd go to Aberfoyle Gym in Scotland, or we'd go to Merthyr Tydfil. And we just lived for the YSA conventions. You know, we had girlfriends up and down the country, not at the same time, by the way. And we had all these friends and the YSA weekends were amazing. There were physical activities and there were spiritual and there were workshops. And sometimes I gave a workshop or I was there and there were these great inspired speakers and they would teach about life skills and get an education and be smart and all these basic principles. And there were these big team building exercises that you have to build a raft and you had to get from A to B.

It was just so much adventure.

And then in our stake, we'd have swimming galas, we'd have roadshows that we'd act and we'd win awards for being the best actor. I never won that award. I don't know why I should have won that anyway. And then all these activities in the stake and quiz shows and so packed. And I just longed for the weekend. Work was good, but And through the week, it was great. I couldn't wait to go to church. It wasn't the doctrine necessarily that kind of switched me on. I think the basic principles about love and Christ and kindness and service, of course, those universal things appeal to me, but it wasn't the history, although I found that something fascinating. It was my friends. It was the community that Jim talks about. It was the culture. And I felt safe. I felt I could I was with my tribe as Jim Bennett described, right? And it was such an interesting time to be in the church. Fast forward, I find the whole thing boring now and very serious. Oh, so serious, right? And even though back then the church was demanding, very strict on the standards and even stricter than it is now, I think you would argue back then it's got softening, I think. But the culture, for me at least, kind of countered, tempered that. There was way more attractive things and fun things and exciting things than dealing with the more serious things. But you know what? Because I felt so entrenched and so engaged and so committed, those other things just became kind of second nature. I just was obedient because I wanted to be. Fast forward, the whole dynamic has changed. The culture's changed. All those activities, events seem to have gone. Whoever made that decision to disband all of that has just made one of the biggest mistakes of their lives. Because I think regardless of demographics, and Craig, you talk about the young people, and Ganesh, you talk about this, you as well, Jim, people want to come to a place where they feel loved. They feel They're going to learn something. It's fun. It's uplifting. They're going to hear great speakers, interesting speakers, not boring speakers, right? Pick the speaker that's interesting, or at least train and teach people to say interesting things. And teach things that are relevant to people's lives. Bring that into the world, those teachings. Do things through the week that are fun and uplifting. Get together with local charities. other religions and come together on a project to help people. And real quick, I remember being in Edinburgh. I was there active in the church. We'd go back to UK every, every year as much as we can. Jim, I was just did a tour of the mission home, knocked on the, um, mission home door with my, with my friend there just to kind of say hi.

They're selling it.

They're selling it.

Yeah.

On, I'll spy on Collinton Road. I think they're selling it. But back then I just, when we went to Edinburgh, I went out with my friend. And I remember we caught a bus from outside the mission home to downtown Edinburgh, the red buses, you know, the Lothian buses that you'll remember, right? And there was a big poster or a medium-sized poster on the bus stop, bus shelter. And it was an event where religions and other charities would come together to help the homeless in Edinburgh. And he had the Church of Scotland, he had a number of charities, he had, I can't remember all of them, but maybe 6 or 7 key organizations, maybe 8, that were working together to help homelessness in Edinburgh. And do you know what organization that was missing? Because there were quite a few in there. Our church. And my friend and I, we talked about that. And so, you know, you've got all those, I'll finish here, but the church claims to be this whole life experience. It gives It's got answers and solutions and directions and teachings and experience for every aspect of the human life, you know, spiritual, emotional, physical, educational. There's nothing that the church can't help you on, right? And the church makes this claim, and I think it came close to fulfilling that years ago, but sadly it's moved away and it doesn't have in the religious marketplace— and you talk about how does the church differentiate itself, Jim, in it, you know, in it, in this expanding, you know, this, this big marketplace, and how does the church reposition itself to attract and retain and, and, and show growth— Unless it deals or, or provides the things that people need and want— a safe place, a place where they, uh, that they can have fun, and feel coached and connected, where they feel like they're accepted and they're not judged and they can be diverse and they can think freely and heaven's sake, they can actually ask questions without being labeled or judged. People are crying out, gentlemen, in a world that we live in today, you know what I'm talking about? They're crying out for a place of refuge in the— look at what's happening in the world. It's dangerous. There's so much danger and division in the world. We talk about civility in religious life and in political life. The world's becoming more divisive, more angrier, more dangerous. People need and are desperate for a place that they can connect with them on a spiritual, educational, and in a community level. The church, by the way, I think has the answers. It really does. and it can reshape itself to provide a lot of the support that people need, including differentiating itself in this more competitive religious marketplace. And yeah, if it has to change itself, become more of a mainstream Christian, et cetera, et cetera, do that. I think that's very smart. Soften some of the standards, make it a little bit easier for people to come to church and don't judge them and don't label them. Create these wonderful experiences and spaces, And if you do that, people will feel they belong. And one last thing for me, and I'll hand the time over to you, Jeremy, to respond to this. I think, Jim, to your question there earlier, it was a great, great point you made. How's the church set itself apart, differentiate itself apart? I've been to lots of churches. I grew up in Church of Scotland, Church of England. I think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only, or perhaps one of the few, Religious organizations that allows people to serve in ways that no other church offers. When I've been to other churches, well, you might not be able to teach. You can't stand up and share your testimony. You can't do this. You can't do that. There's only a small group of people allowed to do certain things. You've gotta sit there and just listen, sing a song along. It's okay for some people, but if you're like me and you want to get involved and you want to like lead and you want to like teach and you want to be part of the plan, a program to kind of help people. I cannot think of an organization better than the church that provides that, but unfortunately it's lost a lot of that. Anyway, you've been very, very patient with my passionate rant there. Am I wrong? Am I right? Am I off cue? What do you think?

I think you're Well, I've mentioned before on this podcast my deceased friend Paul Edwards, who was a general officer in the Community of Christ, which used to be called the Reorganized LDS Church. And he wrote an article about his church, which he said practiced Christ-centered boredom. There's a lesson for us because we got the board right, but we weren't even Christ-centered. We've got the chance now to fix that. It's gonna be very telling next month in General Conference to see how Christocentric the talks will be. My prediction is they will be quite Christocentric, taking the lesson that we've already been teaching from the Salt Lake Visitor Center. But that's half the equation. The other half is, guys, you got to make this interesting because the one thing that young people will not put up with in religion is boredom.

Yeah.

I really think, just to jump in, it was amazing to me that COVID taught everybody just how much of what we do in church is unimportant. You know, when people started blessing the sacrament at home and doing activities with their families, There was a church leader in my stake who said, "We've got to get people back to church because they're going to end up preferring this." And if church is not about community, and church is not about connecting with other people, then yeah, I absolutely would prefer having church at home with my family. And you know, President Nelson liked to lean into this idea of a home-centered, church-supported. kind of program. But I don't know that they calculated the cost of what that will be because the cost was the kind of community that I grew up in and that doesn't seem to exist anymore.

Yeah.

Ganesh, what are your thoughts on what you're hearing?

Well, I long for those days, Ian, that you talked about. And And agree with all, with Jim and Greg. The world has changed in the sense that people have got lots of other options than the church. And I think that you both have pointed that out before too. So if we're going to be relevant, we're going to need something that is interesting and inspiring and something we can be proud of.

Yeah.

that fear's not going to work. We are going to need to be innovative. And with that, if you guys just keep talking for a minute, I'm just going to go do something innovative and I'll be right back.

Innovation is always a good thing.

I'm just thinking that, would it be fair to say then that the church uh, would do well to perhaps reintroduce some of these initiatives, some of these programs, right, that it— that worked really well in the past, uh, which I think would go some way to deal with this, uh, the baldness, right? And then, Jim, to add to that, to take the initiative and with all of the vast resources the church has got to connect some of the solutions to these challenges and then connect it to what we talked about on the last podcast. Ganesh is back. We might come back to that a little bit later. Plus, we need to go through some of the comments and questions, Jim, before we end our conversation this evening.

You're seeing a miracle. He just teleported himself. Wow.

Ganesh, have you just come from Australia into Greg's house? No way.

Here we are.

Holy smoke. Well, folks, you're seeing, you're seeing a miracle right now. Love, heart me. Ganesh has just been translated from Australia into Greg's home. Amazing.

As Clayton says, in the twinkling of an eye.

Well, you know, we, um, the discussion was so good. We were going to do this earlier on in the, in the piece. And then, um, I didn't want to interrupt what was going on because it was so good.

This is really working in real time. Amazing.

Yeah.

So here I, um, I'm with, um, with Greg at his house in, in, um, in BC.

I think momentarily we've rendered Ian speechless.

Until until you see me in a few seconds next to Jim Bennett.

Yeah, go match that.

Well, the amazing thing about it that's really weird is that that brick wall behind you is perfectly centered. Yeah, like so it looks like you're yeah.

Well done.

Well, we thought it might be a little bit for you guys that, you know, you do, you do incredible work and, um, and we love you both absolutely.

And, um, so we thought we'd, we'd lighten up, lighten up the evening by, um, at the same time.

So, so what does our studio audience say?

Yeah, go ahead, Jim, you read it.

So yeah, there are a lot of comments. I'm just going to pick some of the ones here rather than read all of them. The answer to both is largely the same. This was your first question, Ian, but there's lots of other minor factors. Teach the doctrine and history better. It's too bland and boring for those who want to go back especially. Yeah, and all I ever hear from people considering going back is that it's too boring, says the Dragon of Deseret, and that there are no real conversations in church. And I think we've kind of talked about that.

I used to love high priest group, and I know that there wasn't necessarily anything quite as comparable with the women in Relief Society, but high priest group was this place where you could pontificate and you could go off on all these tangents and you could be a little odd and it would be totally okay. Everybody would be fine with that. In fact, it was almost required, which I think we've lost a little bit of in being so serious.

I think that, well, so our good friend Bruce Butcher is asking, howdy, what's your opinion about the Disney effect? That's been talked about, the Temple Square fun stuff. Hi, Greg. Hi, Ian. Hi, Jim. Hi, Ganesh. Hi, cool listener. A Disney effect is an interesting way to describe it. Did you feel, Ganesh, when you were sort of touring through Temple Square that it had sort of been Disneyfied?

There was certainly a polished narrative that, that moved you from one room to the other seamlessly without much interaction. And in terms of, you know, you could— there was a definite, or almost like a ride kind of a scenario because you had 5 minutes in each of these kind of 7 places. So obviously you knew that there was another group 5 minutes just behind you. So you were going into the next room as the next one was coming in. It did have that kind of effect. To be fair, they It did seem nice. Like it wasn't, it didn't feel completely rushed. It didn't feel unfeeling. It was, but you, yeah, there was that idea that you were on a conveyor belt because the next group was just behind you needing to come into the room. So you needed to get to the next room. So yes, it does. It's going to put through a lot of people very quickly, considering that there's probably at least 25 people going through every 5 minutes. That's, that's a big conveyor belt.

Well, the, the, the, the thing that struck me, and I didn't do the entire tour, obviously, it's a whole lot more understated than it used to be. It used to be kind of garish. I think it's kind of almost less Disney-fied. Than it was before. It just feels very classy and very kind of understated and thought through in a way that maybe it wasn't before. But I don't know. But again, it's also more generic. It used to be kind of strange to people, and you had all these murals and you, and the Book of Mormon was front and center, and a lot of people were sort of put You know, Jim, this reminds me of a discussion I had with Arch Madsen.

Arch was a communications guru who McKay brought out to run KSL.

See, was he related to Truman Madsen?

No.

Okay.

At least not closely. Uh, he was the founder of Bonneville International. That was his genius. But he, after he did that gig, they made him the president of the Temple Square Mission. He said, they only did it for a year because they had to get rid of me. I was too disruptive. But what he did was to bring in one of his consultant companies that he had dealt with, and they queried the non-LDS visitors to Temple Square, and they asked them, what are your concerns in life? There was not one of the top 10 concerns that was addressed in any exhibit on Temple Square. And maybe they've finally turned that big corner Because all they wanted to put forward in those years was, here's how great we are and here's why we're different, so come and join us. And most people couldn't have cared less. So if they are indeed trying to position themselves so that outsiders will say, hmm, I like the walk you're walking rather than the talk you're talking. That would be a big change and a good one.

No, I agree. Just very quickly, this reminds me of back in the '80s or the early '80s, Russell Ballard contacted Howard Anderson and my father and put together sort of this media group as to how to use the media to be able to teach the gospel. And they were They said, we answered the questions, where did I come from? Uh, why am I here? And where am I going? And they did a bunch of research and came back and said, those are not the questions people are asking.

Yep.

The questions people were asking is that the number one question was, is this all there is? Is this, I mean, is this all there is to my life? Is this, is there some other meaning to this? Is there some other purpose to this? And they decided that the best way to answer that was to have real people record their stories and give them out in audio cassettes. This is obviously back in the Luddite days. And the church took that and said, hey, thanks, and then started making audio cassettes answering the other questions that, you know, with our Heavenly Father's plan and Together Forever, and all of these audio cassettes that Ian and I gave out on our missions. I found out after my mission that my father was involved in a program that was distorted into that. And prior to that, they did a thing called Bounce Back. They said, okay, we're going to give out these cassettes and they're going to teach people if something goes wrong in your life, you can bounce back and we can really help you. And he said, and Elder Ballard came back and said, yeah, well, we've given away a lot of cassettes and we've gotten pretty much zero baptisms out of it because that's, that doesn't do anything. I mean, so yeah, it feels like maybe the brethren are starting to, to see what it is that actually clicks. Uh, we've got Clayton saying how to retain young people for dummies. Number one, stop excommunicating LGBT people. And number two, Abandon polygamy as an eternal doctrine and say it was a mistake. Number 3, say the priesthood ban was a racist mistake. Number 4, give women more responsibility, leadership calling, say it's okay if they work outside the home, embrace equality for sisters. Number 5, admit fallibility. There, I solved the retention problem.

We might, we might keep the young people and lose all the old people though.

Uh, how about number 6, make it interesting?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I, but good answer. I think that that's an excellent point. Richard Bushman used to say that it's like we're trying to, in order to keep grandma in the church, we lose the future. And it's kind of vice versa. There's a huge trade-off there because yeah, there were a lot of people that if, if the church came out and said, yeah, we're fallible and yeah, we made some big mistakes, people in our generation Go ahead, Jim. No, that— I finished my thought. Uh, I have Ganesh's work. I'm sorry, I actually got to meet him in person at Sunstone this year. Inside Out should totally have Colby and Ganesh come on to present their related Sunstone topics together. What did you talk about at Sunstone, Ganesh?

I, I talked about, um, scripts in the Book of Mormon and in the Doctrine and Covenants and Joseph's writings that seemed to indicate that he was, he had memorized scripts and was performing them as part of the texts that he produced.

Is that, is that how you account for the Book of Mormon?

Partially, yes.

Okay.

Ian, I think I cut you off.

Oh, no, no. Hey, I know we've got to do it. Just a quick thought as I listen to you all and reading some of the comments, and I just draw my own, you know, thoughts and feelings. And going back to what Ganesh was saying earlier, people need to, you know, when you, if you look back on your life, there's certain times, certain moments, certain experiences that you remember perhaps more than most. And it's usually attached to a feeling. We usually remember things because of how the situation or the person made us feel. So Positive or negative, right? If you think back about some negative experiences and why do you feel bad or feel negative? And in contrast, when you felt good about life and yourself and others, what was that setting? What was that experience? And in the church context, if people feel they go to church or they're participating in the church and they feel good about themselves and they're around people that make them feel good about themselves and positive and they can have those conversations and they can see how the Book of Mormon Ganesh can relate to them. So we bring some of the stories in the Book of Mormon, which I find incredibly inspired, by the way, a lot of it, not all of it, a lot of it. And how does that relate to, you know, people's lives in general? You know, that spirituality is so important because we are spiritual beings, whether we know it or not. That's what I think. I mean, some people don't think that, but I think we are spiritual beings. There is a spirit to us for sure. I think so. And, you know, going to a place with people that we love and care about and friends and family and we participating in those kinds of conversations that you're talking about, Ganesh, a little bit of fun as well, a bit of, you know, maybe not as strict in the conversation. And you come away feeling fulfilled. You've been able to talk about stuff and it's been fun. And You've learned stuff, and there's been some spiritual things as well. And people feel good about that, and they take that with them, and they remember that, and they want to go back because they want to feel that again, right? So I think the church can— there's an opportunity here for the church to become that great organization, to achieve its full measure of its creation, bring us some of the things back. That it lost, that we loved, bring it back, right? The other thing as well is create an enterprise where you can team and partner with other organizations to do great things for people, including young people. If it's education, I think we said on the last podcast, Jim, I can't think of a better way of helping young people and people in general than to help them get a good education. You know, pay for an education, make a contribution. Heck, you've got billions of dollars, right? And you will transform their lives if you can work together with young people and help them attain a good education. And you'll shape their lives intellectually, spiritually in ways that few other organizations can or even will. So notwithstanding the challenges related to retention, and growth. I believe firmly that there are real simple solid solutions that the church could deploy to become, perhaps not the true church, the only true church on the earth, you know, kind of move away from that. I don't think you need to have that objective anymore, but become a good church and become a great church. And when people are involved in that and they're working side by side, Helping people in need or food drives or, hey, the church is helping me, you know, get an education or it's amazing. Then that word will spread and people will hear that and they will come to church. Yes, you might lose some people if you become the big tent. I see the church as a big tent. There are people in the church that don't see the church as a big tent. They see it as a small tent and a very exclusive club. And just want to get your response on that, by the way, because it comes up quite a bit with, with our friend Jacob Hanson and some other people that we debate with online. Greg, do you see the church as a big tent or a small tent?

I see it acting more like a small tent when it needs to be a big tent. It's been there before. I think the McKay years were exemplary of that. That may be when the tent got to be the largest. Uh, let, let me comment on a balancing act that is inherent in doing this right. Other traditions, including the megachurches, went too far in trying to make religion fun that they essentially became religious country clubs. And that worked for one generation and then it didn't. So you need to make it interesting, but not trivialize it along the way. It, it's not Disneyland with Jesus.

That is an excellent, excellent point.

But the other thing that I don't think we pay enough attention to Is the mystical. The central point of temples has never been to do work. It's been that that's a sacred space where you hope to touch the divine. That's been endowment theology, which existed even before the church was formally organized. But we lose sight of it because we get so involved in mechanics. President McKay talked about that in a very famous talk he gave to missionaries about the temple experience. And he said, I was disappointed when I went through the first time because I was focused on the mechanics. That's the means to get you to a different destination. So, There's not a single answer on this, but certainly we have to make it more interesting. We have to make it more welcoming, and we can't lose sight of the divine and continually struggle with that question. How do you get access to the divine? I think that's what really was the spark of Joseph Smith's ministry. That number one, he had the vision writ large, not a single event, but a process. But number two is that through the symbology that he created, written, verbal, visual, he made that vision accessible. And that's why people stayed. I don't hear or see much of that anymore. And I think that's where there needs to be renewed emphasis. I hope that makes some sense.

It, it does. I'm, I'm very grateful to hear that because, you know, with all of my, you know, my comments and making it interesting, which is really important, you know, the community and the friendship. Um, speaking personally, I needed that spiritual reverence, you know, sacrament meeting moments and times where I need things to be Still, quiet, peaceful, a connection with God on a very private, personal level. And the church gave that as well. Again, I can go back and think of a time where I felt completely fulfilled in every way. And you're right to counter some of the, perhaps my thoughts and comments in regards to if it goes too far to those other elements. which are important, then of course it becomes, um, we lose the purpose of, of, you know, why we're doing that. That's relationship with God, with Christ, and that personal, quiet, peaceful reverence for, you know, the, the life of Christ. Ganesh, what are your thoughts so far into the conversation? And then you, Jim. And then Jim, would you take us back into some of the comments and questions that are online, please?

Yeah, I think those are great thoughts of Greg, and I agree that there's one of those tricky balances, isn't there, where if everything is special, then nothing is special. So you, it's, and it's really tricky to understand where, where are those boundaries that allow for inclusion. And that then still allow for, um, a transcendent experience. Uh, and, uh, that's a difficulty we, we all see, um, as we try and wrestle with what our engagement is, because there's, there's going to be some things which resound with us that are important and that, um, may not feel quite as special to other people too. So, um, I'm very much like you, Ian. I want a big tent. I want it to work for everybody. And of course, at a level, the church has offered that. It said that these are the answers for the world, and I bought into those rather lofty goals that we were going to be everything, and yet we're just tiny. So how can we be the best tiny? How can we, you know, do our bit well and contribute to a greater world? And that's a balance which I think we all need to make. And the church needs to define, you know, it can't be all things to all people either. So it needs to kind of decide what it is and run with that. I hope that it runs with the idea that we have plenty and that we can share it, that our resources can go to bless lots of people's lives. That would be my hope and that would be inspiring to me. So I hope for that.

Thank you. Jim, Big Tent, small tent, or is it less binary than that?

Well, I think Greg made a wonderful point about it can't be Disneyland with Jesus. And sometimes I think when we talk big tent, that's what we're trying to lean into. And Ian, I want to gently push back a little bit because earlier you said, because we need to sort of lower the standards. And I don't know that lowering the standards per se. I mean, there are some standards that probably shouldn't be standards. I think that we kind of recognize that coffee and tea are not the health disasters that we were told they were in the 19th century. But I think that a lot of, if you were to genuinely lower the standards, I think a lot of people would feel unsettled by that for the same reason they were unsettled, as Ganesh pointed out, by, for instance, the changes in garments, in that women who were wearing these garments and were told that they were walking pornography and they need to cover their shoulders, all of a sudden there are new garments that don't have sleeves. And, and none of that mattered. And they're— and that— Of the standard.

The standard?

Oh, I thought someone was speaking, I guess, with an— yeah, so it's kind of a lowering of the standard, and rather than, oh, this is wonderful, this is more inclusive, it was, wait, so our huge sacrifice all those years meant nothing? And I think that there would be a lot of that if the church were to start to say, okay, we're just gonna make this a little more loosey-goosey. I don't think that's what people are looking for. I think the secret sauce is genuinely making it interesting, making it engaging, making people feel like— I always love to quote Howard Anderson, and he said, I think we will be held accountable for how we treat other people's time. Because very often in the church, I have found that my time has not been respected. I show up at a meeting, I sit in that meeting for hours on end. I remember when I was in a bishopric, my first bishopric, there was this big stake meeting where we met with all the bishoprics in the ward, in all the wards in the stake. And each bishop and each counselor in this stake with 6 wards got up and were supposed to sort of just give a report of how they thought things were going in the ward. And it went on for 3 hours. And I remember thinking, this is not a good use of my time. I'm a young father. I've got babies at home and my wife is wrestling with them. So I can sit and listen to some counselor stand up and say, well, things are going okay. I mean, making it interesting, making it engaging, people feeling like they're spending their time on something valuable. I think that that's a really important part of it. And so I really appreciate that being sort of highlighted. I want to get back to some of the comments here, though. We've got Guy McDude says Mormons want to be both accepted by Christianity at large and set apart from the whore of the earth as a peculiar people. Pick a lane. And there's so much truth in that. And we're seeing that politically in that, you know, when the military, for instance, was classifying which religions are Christian and which are not, it inexplicably decided that Jehovah's Witnesses were Christian, but Mormons were not. And Mike Lee, senator from Utah, who is the biggest supporter of Donald Trump that ever lived, was just aghast that Pete Hegseth and the Christian nationalists Didn't think we were Christians, and I think that this is an important. I don't want to get political so much as to say that we continually try to suck up to people who continually tell us they don't want us, and we're never ever ever going to be accepted by them on the terms we want to be accepted by them. They like our money; they like our votes, but they don't. They hate us and what we believe more than they hate Democrats and liberals. And I just think the sooner we recognize that, the better. And if any of this sort of leaning into mainstream Christianity is an attempt to sort of get the Christian nationalists to say, yeah, the Mormons are all right, that's really, really a fool's errand. Greg, do you think, for instance, that that's some of the thinking here? Do you think that Dallin Oaks wants the Christian nationalists to accept it?

I doubt that he does. I think he's much savvier than that. I had, I've had several conversations with now the retired president of Wesley Seminary. The mainstream Protestants have been exceptionally welcoming of my position on the Board of Governors. But David said, if you're trying to make nice with the evangelicals, forget it. He said, they will never accept Mormonism. And I think we need to understand that that is an absolute truth. That's not where we want to park our wagon.

Ganesh, what do you think?

And along those same lines, I hope that the church has done the calculation to recognize that at some particular point, if the evangelicals or Christian nationalism can do it without the Mormon vote, they will. And it's quite possible we could become the scapegoats. We've got this incredible war chest which we've hoarded, and we're not doing anything amazing with it, and we could easily become the, the, um, fodder, uh, for persecution in the sense of, well, the Mormons, you know, I have hoarded this, taken it off you, um, and we're going to take it off them to solve, um, American problems. Uh, so we really need to be aware that that's a possibility and Gosh, it's a part of history. It's been done before.

Absolutely. Well, Ian, I think, so I pushed back on you, but I would love to hear your thoughts on this. And also if you want to push back on my pushing back.

I'm going to push back on you.

Okay.

So, and so this is why these conversations are so much fun. I looked at Esha's comment earlier. We can't be all things to all people, right? Um, we're trying to find ourselves. We've got these retention problems, got these growth problems. We've got a lot to offer. We've got some issues and some, and some barriers, right? And I think it's a combination of a lot of the solutions that are in, many of the solutions are in the conversation that we're having tonight. Because I think, um, is that scripture, uh, you know, by your fruits, uh, they will know us by their fruits. I've kind of destroyed that, but. By their fruits you shall know them, right? You know, if we're about doing good, okay, being the best that we can, doing the good that we can, helping, serving people in a way that means something to them, it relates to them, it addresses their issues and questions they've got and things that they need to do with their life. To the question that you talked about earlier, Jim, about, you know, what people are asking, they're not asking those questions. What was the question that you said? Remind me. That was what they wanted to do. Is this all there is? Well, there is so much to life if you know where to look. And if you could go to a place that's got many of the things that you need, maybe not everything, but many of the things that you need, and you go to an organization that is perhaps not as strict, absolutely, that doesn't require not to drink tea or coffee. I get the drugs in the drink thing. I'm talking about relaxing. Relaxing. I think Clayton, you talked about this as well. Um, you're relaxing, softening on some stuff, not be as strict. Um, you know, not requiring a tithing donation or a financial donation to go to the temple, kind of, you know, remove some of the barriers. If people have that experience at the temple, and more of them do, 'cause they can get to the temple because they don't have to, you know, write out a check to get to the temple. And they go and it's a good experience, they'll want to donate their time and services and financial resources. I'm not talking— the difference is values, Jim, not standards. Standards and values go hand in hand. Let me change the word standard. I would say rules. So let me change that to rules. If we change some of the rules that you can change without compromising standards or compromising values or integrity, tea, coffee, Financial donations, et cetera, encouraging LGBTQ people to come along, be more inclusive. The things that you can and should do to be more inclusive without extracting all this demand from people across different demographics. And you make it easier to, you make it more attractive because you've got a lot of things that people are looking for and they are looking for them, right, Ganesh? They're out there looking for They need desperately to find a place that they can be fulfilled, and I think the church has got a lot of the answers. So they come, it's a good experience, there's not too much demand, they're not being asked probing questions or not given a call in the first week or 2 weeks. Oh, they've been coming out to church for 2, 3 weeks. The training— Ganesh, you've been a bishop, give them a calling immediately, right? And yes, I think that's important, but, you know, don't overwhelm them, right? So treat them like people, teach them values, good standard, let them govern themselves, can relax some of the rules, et cetera, et cetera. Make it interesting. And to Greg's point, so important that that thread through the gospel experience tapestry is, as President Banks taught us, Jim, personal, private religious experience, right? with God, creating those moments, those spaces where people can feel connected to God. So I want to qualify my comments in that way, Jim, and thank you for allowing me to do that. We're coming up to the end here. I think it would be good if we closed out the next few minutes and invited you 3 fine gentlemen. with all the answers. I'm the apprentice, you're the masters. I'm okay with that. And to invite, maybe in this order, Jim, if you could summarize your thoughts on retention and growth, what you think are perhaps the solutions, to summarize your thoughts. Then Ganesh, if you do the next one, and we'll give our great prince the final word.

Well, I think that I want to leave as much time for Ganesh and Greg as I can. I think that they have articulated this better than I could. But I feel I want to reemphasize that this idea of just respecting people's time is kind of a little niche kind of issue for me. And I think you do that by making church interesting. You respect them enough to be able to give them something that holds their interest and that is engaging. I think that that really is the key. And I think that there is so much about the church that is unique and maybe even a little strange, and to use Greg's word, mystical, that we have kind of drained out of the church. And I would love to just see church be A place where you can be surprised by something that happens, because that doesn't happen. You go to church and you know exactly what here comes: the opening hymn, and here comes the sacrament. Then here comes one boring youth talk, and then here comes a boring adult talk. And da da da. I mean, it's it's just sort of this ritual where we go through the motions. And there's just no, there's just no juice to it. There's no, there's no liveliness to it. And I, I would really like to see that, see that change. So I, but everything else that has been said here, uh, I endorse completely, but I just, I, I just think that that's an element of it, the, the respecting of people's time. That would be very helpful.

Thank you, Jim. Ganesh.

Well, I, I've really enjoyed this conversation and, um, and everybody's thoughts. I, I guess for me, um, it's summed up in one word and that's vibrant. Um, and I, you know, I hope for that. What is, and vibrant is going to be slightly different for everybody, but the, you know, that encompasses, you know, good use of time. It encompasses purpose. It encompasses a bit of fun. It encompasses some kind of transcendent divine experience, and it encompasses a form of being proud of what we have to offer to the world and how we give in a Christlike way. So I'm excited about those kinds of ideas that you exemplify in this forum, and I appreciate your efforts and work to do so.

Thank you, Ganesh. Greg?

A month ago, we were at our vacation home in the Outer Banks in North Carolina. We went to Kitty Hawk United Methodist Church, Where we go when we're down there. Two weeks ago, we went to Chevy Chase Presbyterian Church, where our daughter and her family go. Last week, we took Ganesh, as in two days ago, to worship service at the National Cathedral, which is Episcopalian. All three of those services left us feeling uplifted. Uplifted, enthusiastic, optimistic about life. We can do this and it's not a mystery. Look at what other traditions do to make it vibrant and interesting, and then take some cues from them. Excellent.

You are without doubt 3 wise men. Thank you so much to you, Jim, Ganesh, Greg, for your insights and your perspectives. Thank you for taking time to come on Inside Out. Thank you to all our viewers and listeners who support us. We're grateful to you. We appreciate all of your input and feedback. Sorry we haven't got through all the comments. We try to do that as much as we can, but Again, on behalf of all of our Inside Out community, uh, Jim, we want to thank Ganesh and Greg, who's, uh, honored us again, and just yet another just wonderful, uplifting, uh, exciting conversation. Thank you to you all.

He's going to be teleported back to New Zealand.

Yeah, next time I'm going to show people the house, Jim. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do what they did and show people the house.

We're looking forward to it.

We're not going to tell you how we did it.

Yeah, yeah, very good.