The Next Big Thing?

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett and I am here with Ian Wilkes. Ian, how are you, sir?

I am doing well, Jim. How are you?

Well, I'm doing great. I'm looking at you. People can't see you, but you're in your cool mobile office because you're kind of a big deal, just so everybody knows.

I'm a legend in my own mind.

A legend in your own mind, but you're a legend in my mind as well.

Well, thank you. Thank you. I'm honored to occupy a small space in your mind. Thank you.

There we go. Well, speaking of legends in our own minds, I said something yesterday. We're recording this episode sort of kind of on demand. We had another episode ready to go for this week, but thought this would be a good idea to record this episode because yesterday I posted what I said, allow me to vague post. I am hearing some very exciting church news that has the potential to be revolutionary in really positive ways. I will be more specific when appropriate. Well, as I'm reading this, and so we're recording this on Friday, we're going to release this on Saturday. And as I'm reading this, this has 49,000 views, 71 comments, And it has spilled out beyond X or Twitter, which is where I posted it. It's gone to Reddit, and Reddit has said, I've just heard that this very well-known progmo in the choir— progmo meaning progressive Mormon. I don't really like that label, but whatever. And so there was a big discussion over on Reddit as to what I meant by this. And then I have been deluged by private messages asking me what the big announcement is. Now, do you hear anything in that post, Ian, about a big announcement? I mean, it's just amazing what people want to hear and what people hear and what is actually said are all different things. I didn't say I'm promising a big announcement. I'm saying I've heard some really exciting news that has the potential to be revolutionary. And the speculation just went wild. And in the comments, I'm just going to read a few of these. One-hour church. Tithing recognized as not fully needed to be cash, but expanded to time and labor. Coffee and tea at the same level as eat meat sparingly and other things that are left to people's discretion. Uh, yes, a lot of people thought I was talking about the Word of Wisdom. Um, a lot of people— uh, I, I, I, I kind of posted this and I was, I was actually hoping that some of the Desnat people would seize on this and say, oh, well, there's not going to be any gay temple sealings, Jim, because everything that they're terrified of is wrapped up in the idea that we're going to be more inclusive to LGBTQ people. And I got a little of that, but it was very obnoxious and not from anybody I'd ever heard of. And anyway, there was just all this speculation. And I— so the next day, uh, actually the same day, but later in that day, I posted Something that we had talked about. So, so we have talked about this news behind the scenes, and one of the things you sent me a link to an actual press release that the church had released that goes into sort of the beginnings of this, and it talks about a faith and learning center that is going to be built next to the Preston England Temple. And I had heard about it when this came out. This release came out October of last year, so this isn't anything brand new. But when I had heard about it, I sort of dismissed it because what I had heard was, oh, this is a new home for the For the Strength of the Youth program. You know, these are things that used to be called Especially for Youth. These are essentially you know, 3-day camps for young people in the church, and they come and they hear fun speakers and they hear some music, and it's just kind of a retreat. But it's been something that's been going on in the church for quite some time. And so when I heard about it, I, at first, back in October, I just went, oh, a new place for them to host For the Strength of Youth. Well, For the Strength of Youth is only a few weekends a year. It's not something that's going on for an entire year. And what else are they going to be doing with this space? Well, if you read the press release, it talks about how this is going to be a community center, how other nonprofits and other churches will have access to it and will be able to use it. Now, this is not something— I don't know if it's the same in the UK or even in Canada as it was when I was growing up, but the idea of turning the church over to other churches— and I actually, I can remember an example of that growing up, and it was really unique and different. I grew up in a predominantly Jewish area in Southern California, And during the High Holy Days, Jewish temples would rent out our meetinghouses. And I'd heard it was like a lot of money, but they would rent them out and use them specifically for Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah. And that was just really unusual. That was really unique. But that was also something that was done entirely separate. It's not something that members of the church participated in. And so there's a little bit of that, but the idea is they want to open this up. There will be for community organizations, for other nonprofits, for other churches. And in our conversation that we have not— we're going to, I think, expand on here today. And Ian, I— I'm going to sort of turn this over to you to talk about how much of this you're comfortable sharing, because a lot of this information came from, you know, this is from the UK and this came from sort of your connections with the UK. And I, you know, in looking at this, thought, okay, I can share this. I can share this press release. Because it's already public. But what I am not sharing, or what I have not shared, and Ian, I'm just going to follow your lead as to how much is appropriate to share, is that this is just sort of the tip of the iceberg as to what's being planned. Is that kind of a right way to describe it? Am I framing this appropriately?

Mostly. There is a few gaps that I want to address. So when you finish your introduction, I can, uh, well, that's, that's right.

Uh, that's essentially the introduction, and I would love to have you comment, uh, to the extent that you feel comfortable commenting.

Okay. Uh, so thank you for that. I read your public announcement and twice and felt that What you said and how you said it was, was right. It was fair. And we'll get into some detail of why, you know, what we think's happening at least, and why I think this conversation fits with what you've announced publicly.

Yeah.

Um, and if what we are discussing is correct, and we'll get into why we think it is, then this is a wonderful day for the church. This is fantastic. It's something that we've wanted to see more of in the past, and we hope to see more of this in the future. We had a conversation about what we were going to talk about today and how we were going to discuss it. And we said that we wanted to make sure that this conversation was grounded, that we would talk about things that we knew with some degree of confidence and things that we thought we knew with some degree of maybe mixed confidence and some things that we we think or hope that we are right on. And there's a reason why we take it a little bit longer before we get into the meat and potatoes on this. And the other point is that we have, between you and I, we have a wonderful network of friends in the church, very active in the church, and family across the world— UK, Canada, Europe, and across the United States. And we are connected and we maintain those relationships and we hear things and we see things. And sometimes things, we hear things and they don't happen. And sometimes we hear things and they do happen. But I think today is a very good day for the church. And somebody in the church, Jim, is, I think, I believe, giving the leaders some really good advice. Because if the things that we talk about today, if they're true, then I think this is fantastic news. So let's get into this because there's some important dots to connect. So this is, in our preparation, this is what we said that we knew. So you and I both know that the church has long had challenges and issues about attracting people to the church. We know that. We know that those efforts, those proselyting efforts, are mixed depending on geography, culture. You know, when we were on our missions—

I don't mean to interrupt you. I just want to jump in and say the church is touting Record convert baptisms, and I think those are real. And the church touts numbers that make the church look good, and the convert baptism numbers in recent years have been very good. The church does not share numbers that don't necessarily make the church look good, and the numbers I'm thinking of are numbers. Okay, we know how many people have been baptized. How many people are still active after a year's worth after baptism? We don't ever see those numbers. How many people who have been members have stopped going to church? What's the activity rate? Those are things we don't know. So I just want to qualify what you're saying because the church, I think, is doing very well in terms of raw baptism numbers. Where the challenges are, and we've talked at length, I mean, we had 2 conversations with Jeff Strong, for instance. I think his book has created a great deal of interest around the fact that people are leaving the church. Young people particularly are leaving the church. And so the reason I got excited about this news is that It demonstrates that the church understands that and is aiming at that demographic. So I just want— I'm sorry to interrupt you, but that's just— I wanted to make that clear.

No, that's an important interruption. That's fine. So I mean, the big— the continuing headline, the continuing challenge for the church is it's been a problem and a challenge for the church since the Restoration. continues to be a challenge, especially in the light of the internet. And the problems are, the big challenges are attraction, retention, and growth. And these are the biggest problems and challenges the church is facing, and the problems are getting bigger. I'll put your comments into some context because in certain pocket geographies, Europe and the UK particularly. Yeah, the church is not progressing and that is actually hemorrhaging people where you've got buildings being sold in Scotland. We know that. I've seen the for sale signs. You've got stakes and wards in Europe and UK being restructured, reorganized, and packaged as growth. The reality is through our network and our relationships, which are reliable and trustworthy, we're seeing wards and stakes diminish in terms of numbers. And so the church is experiencing growth in certain geographies, but I think across the world, I think there's a big problem, and I think the problem's going to get worse globally, and I think the rate of decline is going to accelerate. And I'll get into, you know, what the specifics as quickly as I can. And by the way, the reaction, I wanna say this, the reaction to your post is revealing because what does it tell us? That you've said this on the internet, you've had some calls and you've had quite a few messages and people are expecting and hoping for something great to happen. And if what we're sharing is true and correct and reliable, then it is wonderful. And I'll, again, he's so patient with me, but let me just connect some dots and I'll get into this. So we know the church is struggling with growth and retention. We know that a demographic in the church, young people, the church is struggling to hang on to people. Youth and YSA are leaving in incredible numbers. The church is deeply concerned about this because how is it going to sustain itself in the future? You know, almost the entire church relies on the goodwill and the volunteerism of members to operate the church. And to do so without a salary, mostly, not entirely, right? You know, it's 95, 98% of the church members, they don't get paid any financial compensation. It's based on their time and effort, and those are vast resources. We know the church has got the highest number of missionaries out serving right now, 90,000 plus, 91,000 full-time missionaries. I think they had 50,000 55,000 when you and I were serving in Scotland back in the '80s, and that was unbelievable back then, if that number's reliable. I think it is. And so you've got all these missionaries, and they're having, notwithstanding, they're having limited success. That's being gracious, actually. They're having, compared to those numbers, in terms of proportionality, they're not being successful in the traditional proselyting method because that's changed because of the internet. And then because they're online and having these conversations, people have access to the internet. And when they say such stuff, and I heard this again recently, the person being talked to can go check, can go verify. They can use AI to check if Joseph Smith practiced polygamy or polyandry or slept with Fanny Alger or Alger. I'm not sure how you pronounce the last name. Is it Alger? Fanny Alger. And anything to say, the missionaries say, can be checked, and that is a problem. Anyway, so church has these big issues. It's hemorrhaging numbers. It needs to have real growth, Jim, real growth to sustain itself operationally, but it needs to show growth in terms of optics, that it's making a difference, that the gospel is flooding the world. No one, hand on hand, will stop the work until every nation, every kindred, and the people heard the word, etc., and the work will continue rolling on. This is a a significant prophecy by the Prophet Joseph Smith, right? And again, the biggest challenge they've got, one of the biggest challenges is how do they hang on to youth? Anyway, so what I'm hearing, and this is my understanding and belief on what I'm hearing, is that the church is announcing these, this big what they call the Faith and Learning Conference Community Center. The building looks very significant. It's public knowledge. It's not a secret, although I don't know how many people are even aware of the details or specifics. I'm hearing, or I understand based on my hearing, understanding, is that the church is piloting this, and if it's successful, we'll roll it out globally. And here's the punchline. The idea is to create a dedicated building where young people, YSA, and people returning from the mission can attend conferences at these buildings to learn about faith and learn about the church and learn about the importance of religious freedom. And learn about good citizenship and good governance and learn about their role and responsibility in the community. I understand that these buildings are community-focused, and to support that, and this is important, I have personally been involved with permission from state presidents and jail authorities where I've used the church buildings to do and manage big community events when I was the bishop. I was the only bishop in the UK or Scotland certainly doing this, where I opened the Dalkeith building to a 3-event-per-year conference event with the local police services called Young Drivers Challenge. And it ran for several years and we were very successful. The building was opened up, all the senior police officers around Scotland would show up, young drivers would show up, parents would show up, and they would teach the local community the responsibility to drive safely. There were cars outside, there were test courses, but the building was the center. And you'd come into the building, to the chapel, and you'd go around these different booths and they would be manned and operated by police officers and they'd be having conversations with young people. non-members in the Dalkeith building. I organized it directly with the police and it became a model and it was very successful. I did something similar for— that was the young driver safety, but I also did the same thing when that worked out, Jim, as the bishop, for blood transfusion. So I think 3 or 4 times a year, Dalkeith Ward building, the Edinburgh Stake, our initiative approached the Scotland Blood donor services, and they used the building, and they'd come in and they'd take over the building, and they would, um, uh, members of the public would come to the building, I think, 3 or 4 times a year. So hundreds of people come to the building where they would never show up in a Mormon building, and they would give blood. These were very successful events, and I've still got the, all the marketing materials and all the PDFs. So this was a model that the church, if it's done properly, And that's the important thing as well. If the project is right, the church has historically committed to these projects. We know, or we've heard that the— tongue-in-cheek here, no disrespect meant, but we've heard that the church has got more money than God, and we've heard that the church is and should be actively looking for good projects in the community. And when they see a good project, they can fund it because it's good and it's right. And if it's done properly, there is a— the church yields a positive result in terms of people being interested in this. And that's a good thing. There's nothing wrong with that. But also it has a net benefit on the community. Opening up your building to, uh, you know, blood transfusion and young drivers, uh, safety events is good. That's great. That's what the church should be doing and should be doing more of, right? And then fast forward to my time in Canada when I served on the stake presidency, we created our stake's first YSA ward, YSA branch, and we tied it to the local university, University of British Columbia. And so we attracted YSA from across Canada. Because we created this new ward in a place that is like a resort where we live. It's a fantastic place. People want to live and work where we live. And there wasn't enough services or facilities for YSA in this part of the world. So we created a YSA branch. I think it's a ward now. And it was very successful and continues to be successful. And we tied it to the local college and university. and we negotiated. I think there was a room that was dedicated at the college and/or the university where YSA could meet on campus. And so there was a relationship, a correlation between formal education and YSA coming into the area because they were going to university and college. It's a very intelligent, natural, logical connection between the church and religion and formal long-term higher education. And that's, I mean, I've since left the church quite some time ago, but I'm hearing that's been very successful, the relationship between YSA, religious worship, et cetera, and formal higher education. So here's where I'm trying to connect the dots, and you've been most patient. So this is my understanding and belief based on what I've heard, is that these, this significant community conference center, which is titled as Faith and Learning Community Centers, the idea is, I understand it, is to create this space where youth and YSA can attend and learn about the church, but also, and here's the kicker, is tie that to, like we've done elsewhere, tie that to helping these young people connect to formal and higher education. So bringing the importance and value of learning through higher education into the church curriculum program, which we see, I mean, that's not new. But doing it at this community conference center on a national scale, I think, is quite new. And then here's the other thing that I've understood based on what I've heard is that the church is open or thinking or planning about funding these young people's education Uh, in colleges and universities. Okay.

Now that's absolutely huge.

It is huge if that's correct. If there is a, uh, uh, funding available. When I was going to college, I mentioned this when you and I were prepping for this. When I applied for college at the age of 16, I got a grant, just a small amount of money that kept me alive with a part-time job while I went to college. When I went to university, I ran a company, so that was funded by the company, so that was fine. But when I was a college kid, I was poor. I had no money. I was skint, as they say in Europe. And so the grant for the college was I couldn't have gone to college without that. So if the church is planning and organizing such a similar system where it's giving, providing financial support to active young members of the church to support them financially to go to college, university, if that's correct, then that's absolutely huge and it's absolutely fantastic. It'd be wonderful. You could speak more about the BYU model, but to me it sounds like, I dunno if it's the same as the BYU because the youth are not going to a religious university like the BYU is. They're going to a regular standard college or university. But it sounds like, if it's correct, an extension to, if you remember that big announced and perhaps half forgotten Perpetual Education Fund. Do you remember that? Yes. Now, we don't hear much about that. Well, I've not heard much about that. It's been referenced the odd time over the years, but I can't remember the last time that ever came up, that's ever come up again in the last few years. Can you remember the last time you heard about that?

I remember there used to be a thing on The tithing slip where you could donate specifically to the Perpetual Education Fund, that went away. We used to actually donate to that because we thought that was a really, really positive thing. And I wasn't even sure it still existed, but I've just Googled it. And yes, I'm on the church's website and it describes the current Perpetual Education Fund. And there's a button here that says Apply Now. So that's still up and going.

Now, it was a big announcement. We all talked about it. This is amazing. Can you remember what it was about? What was it for? Can you remember?

Well, it was for people in developing nations particularly, and it's modeled after the Perpetual Immigration Fund that the church created in the early days of the church to help people gather to Zion, so to speak. Because when you joined the church in the 19th century, you also committed to uproot your entire family and your entire life and move to Utah. And so the Perpetual Immigration Fund provided funding for these people to gather to Utah. And so, I mean, it's not exactly— it's certainly for a different purpose. But the thinking is the same. These are Very low-interest loans, and the idea is they're going to be given to people who— I'm just looking at the website now. Who is the Perpetual Education Program for? If you are a church member who is unemployed, underemployed, or need better employment to provide for you and your family, Perpetual Education Fund program may help you become self-reliant. Here are some examples of individuals who might benefit from the program. A single mother who is trying to provide for her children. A middle-aged father who has lost his job and is looking to update his skills. A young single adult who is struggling to meet his or her financial obligations. A recently returned missionary who needs a better job to prepare for a future family. A young father who must work extra hours or jobs to care for his family. It mentions BYU Pathways, which is a new program. I know that Elder Gilbert was— instrumental in creating that. So yeah, it's still an ongoing thing, and I think it's expanded. And yet while it's expanded, we hear less about it, which seems kind of strange to me.

Yeah. Oh, this is— thank you for reading that. When that was announced, it was a big deal because— and I read about it, I thought I was excited. This is great. And it ties it to the gospel, right? It ties it to, you know, independence, being self-reliant. I mean, that's a thread, a teaching doctrine thread that runs through the entire tapestry of the gospel, the church, self-reliance, right? Food storage, getting a good education, being smart, getting a degree, getting a good job, being financially independent, being able to support your family financially. These are all great things that the church has These are all the strengths of the church, and this initiative, which I think is an extension and a development of the Perpetual Education Fund, if it's correct, is exciting and some of the biggest news to come out of Salt Lake in years, right? And so, you know, people put money into that fund, as you know. I criticize the church for a lack of financial transparency. You know, where's that going? Show us the Show us how, you know, where that money's going and what's the results. Because we put money into something, you want to see, well, what's the return, right? That's another conversation for another time. But if this program, this initiative with this building that's been announced, this community conference center, if it's a part of the perpetual education or an extension of that where the church with all this billions of dollars that it's got, hundreds of billions of dollars, looking for good projects, looking to retain young people. And think about that for a moment. If the church is funding your education, do you feel some obligation to go to church?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's getting young people invested in the church.

It is. And there's a connection between some of the key doctrines and education. We've talked about that. It's a very powerful relationship. The church has always been into, as long as I remember, encouraging and pushing young people to go get a good education, right? And because that supports the church, they go get trained, skilled, come back in the church to lead us. You got people that own businesses, Investing in education is a smart move by the church because it retains young people, develops young people, commits young people, obliges young people, and then receives the benefits of that investment in the form of retention, attraction. I'll come to that in a second about how this will attract new members. It will develop young leaders. People get a degree, often they go set up a new business, often they're successful. There's financial success. The church will benefit from all of that. It's not new. The idea's not new. The concept's not new. But the, if this is correct, the development and extension and the advancement and acceleration of this idea wholesale, and if this pilot's successful, and I think it's a pilot, And they roll this kind of program out around the world, it would be phenomenal. It would, um, there are some quick gains to be had. You know, would you think twice about leaving if they announce something and say, hey, we're going to help support your, you know, help fund some of your higher education? You probably would think twice before you leave because there's a financial incentive there, right? And so, and so I, if this is correct, this is huge and it's exciting. Let me get to the attraction. So we said at the beginning that one of the biggest problems, big challenge, is how does the church attract new people? And it's got this missionary force. It's committed vast resources to invite and attract people. where it can to look at the church and learn about the church and come into the church and commit to the church. And it's had, at best, limited success. Remember Elder Ballard talking to us about Ye Are My Friends? Do you remember that program in the '80s? And it was like a referral program. Can you describe it? Can you remember how it's structured, the Ye Are My Friends program, how it works?

The Ye Are My Friends program, which won One ward mission leader called the Betray Your Friends program, tongue-in-cheek, although this ward mission leader has since left the church, so I don't know if it's so tongue-in-cheek now. But the idea was, okay, yeah, give us a name. We had this whole flip chart of here are all the steps, give us the name, and by this date, pray, That you will have a name to give us by a certain date. If you don't have a name right now, pick a date and then pray to the Lord and the Lord will give you a name by that date and we will follow up. And then there were just all these steps. It was basically a simple referral program, but it was very regimented and codified. in a way that, that there were measurable steps that the members and the missionaries had to take in order to make this a little bit easier than just, hey, do you have anybody we can teach?

Right. So that's important context for what I'm going to share now. And again, this is my understanding and belief based on what I've heard.

Right.

And if it's true, it's just wonderful. So imagine you and I are young college kids, like, so go back, my goodness, 40 years, right? And we're at college, okay, together. And I've just told you that my church is partly funding, I've got a grant from my church, which is helping me finance my education. And you're like, wow. Okay. And I'm encouraged by the church using the EMI Friends kind of idea to share that selectively, perhaps like you do in EMI Friends. You've got to remember the EMI Friends. You have to prayerfully select people in your friendship circle that you think could be interested in learning about the gospel. Right? Uh, the missionaries asked you to pray and they prayed with you, and then you would, then they'd come back in a week or two and say, have you got any names? Have you prayed about it? Right? So imagine if that, the Hear My Friends concept is introduced into this where, um, young YSA college attendees who were receiving this grant, again, if that's, if, if, if what we heard is great. Um, and I hope it is, I hope it happens and it should happen. It'd be fantastic if it, if, if, uh, the church not just did this, but rolled it out around the world. Um, and then you heard about it as a non-member and I invited you to come to church to learn about it and talk to you about all the benefits of this that come with, you know, this support and, you know, based on the membership of the church, right? Would you be, Jim, would, do you think you'd come to church and learn about it or that you could learn about it from the missionaries or you could come to church to hear about it? And you came to the conference center, the community conference center, the Faith and Learning Community Conference Center, and there was an event and you, you know, you and other people who were invited who were non-members, could come along and learn about this amazing idea. Do you think that would be of interest to you? Might you come along, do you think?

Sure. Well, well, because there are genuine benefits to it beyond sort of the missionary pitch. You know, the Ye Are My Friends program was just Give us somebody that we can come and just pitch, teach the discussions to, and try to get them to join the church. And, but if this is, hey, this is something that can advance my secular education, this is something that can have a real-world benefit for me, yeah, of course I'd be interested.

Yeah, and you stole my wind, and rightly so. And that was—

Sorry.

No, no, no, no, it's good. I'm glad you did it. It was perfect timing because The difference with my friends is that we didn't give the family's money, did we? Say, hey, we'll give you some cash if you go out and if you did that, they might, by the way, if they'd have done that, they probably would've had no success. But based on that concept, if you add in the financial incentive and it's an investment in you, in yourself, in your life, in your goals and your aspiration, because education's tied to goals. and aspirations and career. It's an education investment in you personally. It's a very personal experience. So if somebody is— it's one thing getting a grant from the government who frankly, I don't think gave a shit about my education. It was just a grant that was— I was grateful for the grant, but I don't think the people really cared about whether I took it or not. But if you've got a private enterprise offering support, yeah, you've got to give something in return, of course, but they're offering support and they're really interesting. You come along to the conference and talk about how they can help and support and how the church teaches the value of a good education and esteem and self-worth and career and is an investment in yourself. which you don't have with regular government officials. You just fill out a form and hopefully you'll get the grant, right? Well, that's a whole different experience because you've got people, you know, when I joined the church at 16, I changed my complete environment overnight and was surrounded by people that cared for me and loved me, and it completely transformed my life. They were interested in me in a way that I didn't see or experience before I joined the church. It was like I'd come home and they were interested in me, Jim, and they wanted me to succeed. And, Ian, you can do that and you can do that. And I'm like, wow, you actually believe in me. That's a completely different experience. And the church has got the strategies, the ideas, and the resources to help you feel amazing at these events. And then the big incentive is that, hey, This program exists to support you. Again, if it's correct, if what I'm hearing is correct, and I hope it is, and you've got— there's a financial incentive, and the missionaries, and you have this, go to this meeting, and you hear about it, and then you get, we say, hey, would you like to learn more about the church? And we go like, well, yeah, right? And then the missionary teach you, and you get baptized, and then you become part of the program, and you get access to the grant. And it's a good experience for you and it's tied to your investment. And by the way, just to throw into the mix, which we talked about in preparation for this conversation, that some of the, we're not going to be as strict on some of the standards, um, you know, like we used to on youth, really tough on youth on, on certain things and asking all these probing questions. And you're living this and living that. Oh, you're doing this and can't take the sacrament anymore for a couple of weeks or whatever, right? So by softening and relaxing some of the, some of the standards, if you like, or maybe standards is not the right word, but maybe some of the strictness. Let's use that, not standards. That was the wrong word.

But I want to, I want to make sure we're specific on this because I think a lot of people would listen to that and say that would be a huge step backwards for the church, that the church is watering down its standards, its doctrines, then that would be bad. But I don't think that's necessarily what this is, or maybe it is. So help me to clarify this.

Please.

But my understanding, based on the conversations we've had here, is that a lot of these benefits will be available Not just to members of the church. In other words, there may be educational grants and benefits for somebody outside the church that is participating in this Faith and Learning Center, and their receiving of some of these benefits is not necessarily contingent on them joining. the church. Is that accurate?

Okay, let me connect the dots there. So using the word standard is probably not the right— well, I would argue it is, but for a big part of our audience, I can see why people would have a problem with that. But I'm talking about— I want to address that. It's important. I'm talking about if someone, just like anyone joining the church who are smoking or drinking coffee or tea, you know, or having, you know, um, uh, sex outside of marriage, the doctrines there haven't changed. I, I know that. But in terms of the language and the, and, and the pressure that, you know, people felt, I think that's changing. We know it's changing. It's a factual, it's changing. It's a fact that it's changing where instead of sending a missionary home because there's a problem, you know, the missionary works on it, right? You work with the missionary and you help them. Um, and you— it's not like a black and white decision, so to speak. It's not an automatic dismissal, or you can't take the sacraments. I think the church is, uh, having to— has to take a less strict, uh, position on certain things because a lot of people and youth are doing things, right? And, you know, they would rather continue doing them and lead the church, right? So I think there is a softening in the language. Again, I'm trying to use my words carefully here, and a softening in the strictness. Is it a softening in the standards? Well, perhaps not, depending on the perspective. So I want to kind of qualify that. And then the other piece that you mentioned, this is an interesting point you made because it's a bit of a two-edged sword. Let me I'll answer the question, but let me ask you one question before I give my answer. You know, when someone enrolls at BYU, okay?

Yeah.

So can non-members enroll at BYU?

They can. They pay a higher tuition than members do.

Okay.

Because, I mean, one of the things about this, and this may be a tangent, so I won't go off on it too much, but If you go to BYU and you are a member of the church, you are receiving a largely subsidized education. BYU's tuition is markedly lower than any private university in the United States and competitive and sometimes lower than tuitions for public universities.

Right.

And that comes because the church subsidizes each education. And so I look at this and think, uh, if the church were to say, okay, if you're a member of the church, we will give you that same educational subsidy we give all BYU students regardless of where you go to church— I'm sorry, where you go to school— that would be unbelievably massive. Now, so the question, and maybe we don't know the answer to it, or is the same logic going to apply to non-members applying for these sorts of grants? In that, at BYU, okay, great, you're a non-member, you want to come to BYU, wonderful. But you're not getting any subsidy. Subsidy comes from members.

Right.

So, so that would argue against any non-members getting these grants. So it sounds like we're not sure on that. Is that right?

Well, we might be. This is, this is what I've heard is new to you even, I think. Maybe we'll see. Because I think, I think there's an answer and I think if, I hope it's correct what I've heard. And if it is, it's wonderful. And I'll, I, I, I, because I think it addresses your question. But going back to the BYU, if you're not a member, of the church. You've got to be able, and you pay more, correct?

Yes.

Right. Can you, so does that non-member, are they required to follow the honor code?

Yes, but they're not required, they're not required to attend LDS services, I don't think.

Right. So there are some services available to Um, sorry, let me go back. There are some things that they don't have to do or attend, correct?

Correct.

Right. And go to church, I think, is one of them.

Yes.

Is that correct? Is that correct? But they have to follow the other basic rules of BYU, right?

They, they have to follow like the sexual standards. They have to follow Word of Wisdom standards. They have to follow the grooming standards. You know, they have to, They can't have beards, which I still think is ridiculous, but okay.

That's interesting. So we know, we said at the beginning, you know, what do we know? What do we think we know? And we know that a model to some extent already exists at BYU. We know that there are some benefits for attending BYU if you're a member, right? And we know that the rules extend, you know, more of the rules extend to those who are members of the church. Compared to non-members, i.e., non-members don't have to go to church, do they, at BYU?

Not as far as I know. I'm gonna have to look that up while we're talking.

Okay, well, they don't have to get baptized. I know that.

That is absolutely correct.

So if I apply to go, if I'm not a member and I apply to BYU, they don't say, hey Ian, you know, you've got to get baptized before you get into the BYU. They don't say that. We know that.

Right.

So this goes to my response to what you said earlier. What I'm hearing, and this is my interpretation, all of these comments and these things that I'm hearing, uh, I, I'm sharing it in the context of my understanding, my interpretation, my belief, and I'm hoping that it's correct. So what I'm hearing is that if you are a non-member, And you want to participate in what could be a development of the Perpetual Education Fund available to people, say, in the UK who want to, or try to secure funding to help them pay for their education, and they hear about this program and they come and learn about it. What I understand is that they don't have to get baptized. They can still apply. But the deal looks less attractive to them compared to if they were members. So if it's correct, it's a similar model to what you've got at BYU. That, and it's still huge. If it's correct, it's still big, right?

Yeah.

And so if the church is behaving and practicing like a source of funding for non-members, and there are some requirements of them to attend the conference and learn about it or participate in church, you know, these community conference in some way without having to get baptized, then it sounds similar to the BYU model. If, if, if there's a financial incentive to become a member, if you look at the pure Just the finances at BYU, would it be fair to say it'd be cheaper to attend BYU if I was a member?

Oh, absolutely.

Right. And we can't discount the financial incentive there because it's real. To what extent is that funded, Jim? Do we know?

I don't know. I can look that up. I just looked up here. This is according to Claude. You are correct. I mean, it points out, yeah, that they're ever all—it says non-members get no carve-out on conduct. So grooming standards, word of wisdom, law of chastity, residential living standards. They also don't get any carve-out on—they still have to take Book of Mormon classes, religion classes in order to graduate. But it says here. Church attendance is the one place the standards diverge. Latter-day Saint students are expected to attend church meetings and abide by the rules and standards of the church. Those who are not members are expected to maintain the same standards of conduct but are encouraged to participate in services of their preferred religion. So, a Catholic student is encouraged toward Mass. Not sacrament meeting, and nobody's endorsement hinges on showing up at an LDS ward.

I, you've got the model right there, and that, and, and what I'm hearing is consistent with what you've just described. So if this, what we're hearing is correct, this, uh, uh, significant structure, which is planned in England. which is in the public domain. If this is a cultural or a community conference center where they support primarily active, less active young people in the church, tie this to formal education, develop, extend the perpetual education fund, give them a financial incentive to come to church apart from their education, it's an absolute winner. They get time with them, they get 4 years, they get exposure to the church. There's things that they have to do, like the BYU. You've got to do stuff, you've got to attend stuff. If you're in the church and you go to BYU, you've got commitments and obligations in order to receive those financial savings, those benefits, right? Likewise, I think for non-members, inviting them and encouraging them and where they have to attend certain things and participate to an extent without having to join the church necessarily, but the church gets access to them and has an audience where they can attract some of them, is way better than what they've got now. You know, they haven't got that. And then the other extension to the idea, um, is by what we talked about often on the podcast, and you've talked about this passionately, where the church resources and the buildings are being used collaboratively with other religions and faiths and charities in the area to support good cause projects. So imagine if these conference centers are used by other charities, just like I did with my building, right? The police came in, blood transfusion came in, by the way, a whole bunch of charities and organizations associated with those services came into the building. Imagine if you've got other local organizations. And this is the— just think, see how this model's rolling out now, Jim, right? Other organizations, colleges show up, universities show up, and they have got a booth or they speak at the conference. Other religions show up, Church of England, Catholic Church, they're all there in the conference center. We all are interested in helping young people get an education. There's some joint collaboration on some of the funding, perhaps a real true collaborative community and national initiative where they're helping people. And my goodness, they need this. And the governments in the UK are failing this. The vast majority of the British public will tell you the government of UK are failing young people big time. And people are falling into crime. They're not educated. They can't write or read. Crimes, they say crimes increasing, et cetera. People are lost. I think the stats in the UK has got the highest number of young people unemployed, I think between like 18 and 26 in the history of the UK. I mean, you can Google this and the stats are real and they're reliable, right? And it was announced only months ago, this particular demographic of young men in particular who are falling behind. And if you don't believe me, this could be searched within seconds on the internet. it, right? And it's an issue of the church. So imagine the church leading this with its resources in the building, starting with its own active, less active youth, rolling it out through the EMI Friends referral program where people come in, learn about it, participate. There's some obligation on the part of those who are not members who are part of the program, similar to some extent perhaps as the BYU model, etc. And other organizations, charities, religions, faiths, local council comes in, local authorities come in usually, uh, you know, last because someone told me recently that governments don't innovate and there's perhaps some truth in that, but whatever. Uh, I think people lost a lot of confidence in political leadership, frankly. And so the church take, we said, um, wouldn't it be great if the church took initiative and leadership on key issues, uh, around the world. And this is one of them. This is fantastic. Investing in someone's education. I can't think of anything greater because it connects to their self-worth, their self-esteem, their life skills, family, uh, prosperity, financial independence, all the things that a lot of, uh, young people are seeking and are desperate for. And wouldn't it be great if the church developed it in the way that we're discussing collaboratively with other organizations and built those connections. I mean, how, as I'm describing this amazing structure on the grand scale that it hopefully is going to happen and should be, with all your insight and knowledge and how you feel about the church, Jim, and how passionate you feel about the church being successful and being better at helping people in the way that it can and should. To you, when you hear this great vision and the impact it has on a personal level, what does that sound like to you?

Well, it sounds like the phrase I used when I posted about this. I said, this is potentially Revolutionary. And people heard that and heard, oh, it's revolutionary. So we're getting— the Word of Wisdom's going away. And no, no, that's not what I meant. Those kinds of things are revolutionary. This is potentially revolutionary. The difference is, uh, this has the capacity, I think, to transform the church in fundamental ways. That will benefit multitudes of lives. It also has the potential to sort of fall flat on its face and be sort of a nothing burger. And so I want to explore that for just a minute. One of the things I posted, I put a follow-up post out there, and I quoted Jared Halverson, who's a BYU professor who interviewed Terrell Givens on a podcast. I don't remember the name of the podcast. But one of the things he said to Terryl Givens was, for young people, it's not enough for the church to be true. The church also has to be good. And that, I think, is the component that is missing for a lot of the youth who end up leaving the church. We have seen under President Nelson particularly, this huge push for temples. We've announced all these temples that are all across the world, and they're expensive, and they are being built in places that don't necessarily have the manpower to staff them. And I think they're largely, frankly, unappealing. To young people. Terrell Givens, when he was on our podcast, told you, because I was hit and miss on that episode, was traveling, but he said, look, yeah, young people think the temple is a problem because they would much rather be in a soup kitchen. They don't want to help the dead. They want to help the living. They want to know that what they're doing is making a difference in the world around them. And as much as temples are wonderful, and as much as the theology behind them is wonderful, and as much as the idea of binding the whole human family into a single, into a single family is wonderful, temples do not have a lot of impact on living people. Other than the people who are feeling connected to their ancestors through the work they're doing. So this strikes me as a really logical progression. I mean, you've talked about this a lot, but this as a really wise step to engage people with the church. Now, we interviewed on this podcast my sister and my brother-in-law who are going to conclude their humanitarian mission in Australia in a couple of months. What they are doing is not proselyting. They're going out and doing humanitarian projects, spending the church's money on humanitarian projects, and it's having a massive impact on places that people wouldn't even think of. It's having unintended consequences. But the unintended consequences are positive consequences. We've talked, for instance, on this podcast about the idea of the church transitioning all proselyting missionaries to service missionaries. This, I think, is a step toward doing that. The reason I think that would be effective is that the thing that will attract people to the church is not necessarily an 18-year-old kid's explanation of biblical theology as to it. You know, I just— fine, whatever. What attracts people to the church is when they see something that is attractive. You know, in the New Testament, is it Nicodemus? He's talking to his friend and he says, come and see. Come and see Jesus. Just come and see. And we're asking people to come and see what the church can do, how the church is benefiting not just the lives of its members, but the lives of the world. That's the component of this that has both the potential to be revolutionary and the potential to fall flat. And that is the community engagement component. We do not engage with the community around us. And the things you've described, Ian, that you did in Canada and in Scotland, blood drives and, you know, driver courses. Those are great. I don't see them being implemented on a church-wide scale, nor do I see them being implemented with any kind of organization or strategy behind it. Every now and then, a scrappy bishop like Ian Wilkes will say, hey, why don't we open the doors to something that the community will benefit But from what we're understanding again from this program, this would be, I think, the first long-term strategic commitment to community engagement that the church has ever done. I think I'm comfortable in saying that, that we've ever done. I mean, we've got— when the church was founded, Not only did we not engage with the community around us, we ran away from it. It was leave your community, leave your home, come gather to Zion in the mountains away from everybody. We're just going to build our own community and we're going to let the world go to hell. And you still see that in the rhetoric of the church. How often do you hear in General Conference about the world? Every time they talk about the world, it's, it's a bad thing. You know, we have our standards. The world has its own standards. Well, okay. At the same time, the world consists of other children of God that are as loved by their Heavenly Father as members of the church are. And to dismiss the world as something that we shouldn't engage with and shouldn't have anything to do with is a losing strategy. It's what drives people away from the church. There are people, I think, who don't necessarily believe the church's truth claims who would still stay in the church if they thought the church was doing them good and doing good to the community and to the world around them. And they don't necessarily see that, and so they leave. The other aspect of this that we've talked about many, many times is that the church seems to have almost actively been dismantling the community-building efforts that were such a vital part of my own upbringing. I mean, you joined the church as a teenager, but even then, It was that community spirit. I mean, you kept saying, these are people who were interested in me. These people were people who loved me. I felt like I was coming home. That doesn't come from a theological argument. That comes from social and community efforts that church-wide we seem to have abandoned. And I think that has done tremendous damage. So, This is why this is potentially revolutionary. If the church puts significant resources behind building community centers in which other churches come and they participate in our activities, we put on road shows with Mormons and Methodists alike, that there is some kind of community bond that we build with our friends and our neighbors and other religionists. I mean, that's the other component to this. Ecumenical activity is something that the larger Christian world has been pursuing for decades, if not centuries. They're not looking for the one true church. They're trying to build the body of Christ from all of these churches. And so there's this ecumenical movement for all these churches to find common ground, to work together. And as Greg Prince has said, when he talks about the Wesley Theological Seminary, when he talked about the director of that seminary saying, well, you Mormons need to get a seat at the table. And Greg said, not only do we not have a seat at the table, We don't even acknowledge that there is a table. You know, we are the only true church. We don't need all these other churches. We don't want them. And we go out of our way to alienate ourselves. And you see this now in, you know, all of a sudden now we do Good Friday and we do Palm Sunday and we're engaged in Christian holidays. We're speaking more religiously. We're speaking more Christian. The visitor center at the Salt Lake Temple has this pic, has the huge beautiful statue of Christ carrying the cross. You know, we had spurned the cross as a— I mean, I don't think— I had a conversation. I'm going to be a little oblique on this because I had a conversation with somebody that I think people would recognize who said that they were concerned about how Christian this is, because— and I think they make a good point— if we're just Methodists, you know, if we're just like all the other Christian churches, then what is it that brings them to us? You know, because we're more expensive than being a Methodist. You have to pay tithing. You have to, you know, You go to the temple, you have to live the Word of Wisdom. You have to do all these standards that don't get you kicked out of the Methodist Church or kicked out of the Presbyterians. So what's the differentiator? And I can see how that can be a problem. But I think the larger problem that we've had is that we have gone so far the other way. Over the generations that we have just said to the rest of the world, "We don't need you. We don't want you. We don't want to participate with you." And then we're kind of shocked when they don't say, "Well, Mormons are Christians." We're shocked that they don't consider us part of them when we've spent all this time trying to distance ourselves from them. So where this could be revolutionary and where it could fall flat. Is the extent to which we engage in good faith with other faiths, with other people, where we are really interested in building a community that isn't necessarily a Latter-day Saint community. That the Preston Faith and Learning Center is interested in building faith and learning in the Preston community, whether or not you are a Latter-day Saint. That is potentially a revolutionary idea. And I think the paradox and the positive paradox to that idea is that when you build that community without trying, without an ulterior motive, without being like, aha, and then We will sucker them into the discussions, and then we, you know, which we've done a lot of. There's no question we've done a lot of that. But if we genuinely, in good faith, say we are here to do good, and we are here to love our neighbor as ourself, and we are here to help people, and we don't care where they go to church, they're all children of God, and it's our job. As Latter-day Saints to bless the whole earth, not just. The paradox there is that makes the church much, much, much more attractive, not less. Then people, it's the most becomes the most natural thing in the world for somebody who has worked along Latter-day Saints alongside Latter-day Saints prayed alongside Latter-day Saints. Participated in all these social activities alongside Latter-day Saints, education where Latter-day Saints have helped them in their secular education, it becomes the most natural thing in the world to say, what is it about you guys that drives you to do this? There's something about this, and I want to know more. You know, the golden question we would ask on our missions, what do you know about the Mormons, and do you want to know more? And the answer was usually nothing and no. I know nothing about you and I don't want to know anymore. Why would I want to know more? But this kind of positive, non-preachy community building that has real heft behind it. For instance, when you were doing blood drives, what kind of Support did you get from Salt Lake City for all of that?

No support. And in fact, I was, I had to fight to convince local leaders, stake and other regional leaders to even do this. These ideas were received with skepticism. skepticism locally, including from, I think, one of my counselors who was a great guy, but bishop, not really sure. We've never— the response was, we've never done this before and we should stick to the regular program, right? And then when I approached the stake and the regional leaders, it was a fight, Jim, like you've no idea. To even move this initiative forward. In fact, the first one I did, I did it against the advice from the leaders. I just did it and I just didn't give a shit. I just did it. I thought, you're gonna release me, just release me, cuz I think this is the right thing to do. So I was breaking ground. No, no, no one else doing this in Scotland. I think they might, I dunno if they're doing it in England. They might have been. England's a lot bigger. But there's absolutely no one doing any of this in Scotland about trying to connect with community. This is back in, this is back in 2000, I think, when I was called. Was it 2000? I think it was. And it was all breakthrough. And I even got criticized by not being obedient because, Bishop, we've never done this before and you're causing a bit of a stir. I think there were people in the leadership were like, I think I split them. There were people that were saying, this is great, showing initiative, do it. You know, it's a local thing, so we'll kind of pilot it, let him do it. If it fails, it's local. If it succeeds, we could, you know, we can, we can learn from it. But there's a lot of opposition, and, and Salt Lake weren't involved, of course. It was mostly, um, I don't even think Solihull. It was mostly Scotland, senior leaders, that were mixed, frankly. So, but they were very successful. And even now I hear about people who went to them and they think it's great. Some of them didn't know about the church, but their perception of the church changed, right? So, um, I want to respond to what you've just said because what you said is really important. Do you have anything you want to add to what you've said before I respond?

Uh, no. I would love to hear your response.

Okay. So I listened intently to what you've just said and your response to my question, and that listeners can go back to what my question was, is easily the most powerful, comprehensive answer that I think will now ever exist on the internet or anywhere. Because what you've articulated is exactly what we hope this is, what it should be, and the potential for success and being revolutionary if it's done right and if it's supported. And you were right to qualify, you know, to talk about the conditions for failure or success because that's critical. And you were very articulate in qualifying that, but if it's done properly and it's supported and resourced and done professionally, because there is a professional element, right? There's not just a, you know, volunteer component in a Mormon way of organizing things. There's a professional component to this, to engaging and collaborating with other organizations and all the coordinating and professional organization of it is really important. The good news is that the church has got people in the church who are very good at this, very good at organizing stuff, and brilliant actually at organizing this stuff, and do it better than many, right? You have made such— so important, so many important points. I invite people to listen to what you said twice, and I'm not joking, honestly, I'm not. I can't, I don't remember the last time I said listen to Jim Bennett twice. I know that sounds a bit cruel on people, but what you just said, listen to Jim Bennett twice because you've talked about this culture in the church to move away from the world. You know, we're a peculiar people. And what's that old quote? You know, we're in the world but not of the world. Well, no, you are of the world. You know, when you hear people talk about, share things with you in a very personal setting, you realize that the members are a cross-section of society, right? They are. I know that. It's not any survey or question I've— they've told me stuff. They've told me stuff that they're doing and they shouldn't be doing, right? Um, they're human. They're doing stuff that everybody else does. You know, you know, wake up and smell the coffee. You know, Mormons might, some might surprise you. They're not as perfect as you think, and they're quite regular people. And they've got the, the, the dealing with shit that others are dealing with, right? And they've got similar issues and problems like everyone else. I mean, the pressure's different. They're under immense pressure to, to live and to, a certain standard, right? Some find it easier than others, but the members are a cross-section of society depending on, you know, and they reflect the culture and the environment in which they grow up, right? And the politics in that and economic conditions of that wherever they live, right? So the answer is not to walk away from the world. That's a failure. Whoever push that and encourage that, uh, failed. That's a failure. And it's been an, um, abject failure from the beginning. The answer is to, is to engage, is to collaborate, is to team and partner on things that you agree on, right? And you've articulated that extremely well, better than anyone I've heard, better than most. And find common ground, Jim, right? You and I, Agree on some stuff, we disagree on some stuff, and and so and that's okay, that's normal, that's natural, and it's it's good. We don't agree on everything, right?

Otherwise, you know, we'd all be robots, right?

So the answer is to do a 180 reverse for the church, and this is what's happening, and this is revolutionary. It's no mistake or or you know that the church is now installed. A, a, a structure of Jesus Christ carrying a cross, right? That's not, they suddenly wake up and, hey, you know, we're gonna do that, right? This is in the planning. You know, trying to embrace mainstream Christianity is not a mistake. It's deliberate and it's a very intelligent strategic repositioning of the church. And I think what's happening here, somebody, a Greg Prince, maybe it is Greg. Greg, if you are hearing this, And you're the one counseling the First Presidency, as you should be. You know how I feel about you, Greg. And they listen to you or someone like you, then good, because someone's listening to someone like you, Greg, and Jeff Strong and others, and are now doing a full 180 turnaround and realizing that the moving away, dissing themselves hasn't worked and will never work. Ever. And so by, and so how do you make it successful? You, and this is the key, and you've articulated this really well. You find something that's solid, real, meaningful, substantial, life-changing in a real way, not in a bullshit way, not in a gimmicky way, not in a marketing way. And oh my goodness, we look good on the surface, but something real, Jim, on a personal level. And what more powerful or personal way can you help someone than helping someone get a college degree, right? I have said often, not now, but when I was younger, I tied, and there's some truth to this for me, me personally, I don't, I'm just sharing my experience. Much of my confidence in my early years were tied to my education, right? When I was younger, I didn't know anything and I knew I didn't know anything. And it, you know, there's times I felt stupid and felt, you know, quite inadequate and surrounded by really smart people and felt I just wasn't smart enough. The truth is, again, without sounding, trying to sound arrogant or overconfident, I was smart. I just, to an extent, not the smartest person on the planet, but I had some intelligence about me that I didn't either knew I had or recognized or didn't see. And it was an education that helped me see it. I started to know stuff. And I'm in my, you know, I'm older and there are some things I know and there's lots of things I don't. And the things that I know, I know, I know, and they work and I've tried them. And when you get to my age, you start to think, well, you know a little bit, there's still lots to learn. You don't know most stuff, but you start to learn a little bit of wisdom, hopefully a little bit of knowledge. And And then you want to share that, right? And a big part of that has been in my education, my degrees and the skills I've learned on the big complex, very complex projects I'm involved in. I've deliberately surrounded myself, Jim, with intelligent people, you included. And I've learned from those people. My goal's been to surround myself with people that know more than me. And that's my consulting model, right? You don't, You hire a consultant because they know more than you, and hopefully they do, right? And so I make a living on stuff that I know that is valuable, and the clients pay for it and they get the knowledge and experience. Well, I can't think of a more powerful way than for the church to use its resources, its qualities, its extraordinary qualities that it has in abundance, to invest in someone's future through education. And the other thing you mentioned, which really struck out to me, was the temples are not working. The big announcement and growth in temples are for an exclusive number of people within an exclusive club within Mormonism. Not everybody can attend the temple, right? You've got to, we've been reviewing the temple, uh, recommend questions, um, quite extensively with Greg Prince and yourself, and there's 15 yes or no revised questions and If you don't answer them affirmatively, you can't go to the temple. So it's for an exclusive number of people within an exclusive group, which is a tiny percent of a percent of the world population. It's insignificant. And it's billions of dollars investing in that very, very niche of a niche of a group and for the dead. So a small percent of a percent of the living, um, and then the vast majority of that is for the dead. Right? And we said spend more on the living, right? So the temples, you know, I've heard that the Scotland Temple might not get built, that the Irish Temple might not get built. It's been announced, but there's no one there to operate them. The church is failing in Scotland. There's only 1,000 or 900 members in Ireland, and they're building a temple. The temple initiative in certain parts of the world, I want to qualify that, is not working. It's not going to work. The missionary effort has changed dramatically since you and I were on our missions, right? The 90,000 people, young people serving missions, well, it's all online. A lot of it's online. And we've said, and you've said frequently, wouldn't it be amazing if the church could mobilize that resource in community initiatives? Now, the way how this connects, which would revolutionize, and you've communicated this so well, imagine pooling all those mission resources, the member resources, this building structure, which is a community conference center, retaining your youth through these educational perpetual education funds and supporting them financially to get in mitigation and how powerful and how personal that is for them. You know, we're talking about active youth and UISA, you know, missionaries returning. We're talking about, um, reactivating less active. And there are many thousands of young people in the UK, for example, who I think would be really interested in something like this and want to come back to church. And then to extend that even further, provide some kind of initiative program qualified, perhaps on the BYU model, to attract and invite non-member young people to participate in some way through this program so they can access, you know, higher education. And it gives the church an opportunity to engage those young people. And then what we talked about, and again, in a way that you describe way better than I can, more powerfully was the model around community engagement and working with charities, other religions, other council jurisdictions, local authorities, other organizations and private enterprises and other private businesses that actually invest in these kind of ideas, et cetera. To bring them all together in one place in the way we did in Dalkeith, albeit at a much smaller scale, but in the same spirit of that big tent, big vision collaborative model, all working together to help young people develop their futures where there is a net benefit on the community, not just in the church, right? They can come to church, they might not come to church, But this is an investment, Jim, in the community. Because if you don't come to church, but you've got an education, you're going to speak passionately about that. And by getting the education, you're going to be a better member of the society, are you not? If you've got better skills, more knowledge, you're educated, you're successful. And so you build society. This is truly revolutionary. In the immediate term, in the midterm, and in the long term. And the church, if this is true, if what we're hearing is correct, and if my interpretation or our interpretation is correct, this, and it's successful on a pilot level, it's rolled out globally, and it's tested and all the issues are ironed out, if there are any issues, et cetera, and it's rolled out, the church would reinvent itself and, and transform itself into an organization that it has yet not yet achieved or become. And it would get more respect and it would grow and it would be amazing and it'd be fantastic. It might not, you know, and it'd be able to more effectively move away from being the only true church that we talk about, you know, tongue-in-cheek, and being not just a good church, but a great church. What a great title to earn, to be, oh, the Mormon Church is a great church. I went, they're amazing. I felt accepted. I didn't join, but hey, they helped me with my education and I'm grateful. And you don't forget that. And you got those powerful connections for the rest of your life. So If what, again, if what we've heard is correct, and I think it is, and I hope it is, and it should be, then what you've said, to circle back to what you've commented online, would be undoubtedly, unquestionably, truly revolutionary for sure. And I just hope and pray that this is real. And even if the church is not thinking to the extent that we're discussing it here, I hope it does and I hope it is. And this vision that we've got, which hopefully the church has got this vision and more and is advanced in these, it will have— develop these ideas and are advancing, accelerating these ideas to the extent that we're discussing, and perhaps, um, in different ways, in even better ways of what we've discussed here, then I think that's just a wonderful thing because you could tie it to the mission program, humanitarian. Um, my question to you is, I throw it back to you, uh, and you, I know you know the answer to this really well. Can you see then that this is a a big solution to a big problem? And the second question is, can you see how it connects to so many of the church's objectives in trying to grow? So the first question is, does it— would this solve some of the church's problems if it's done properly? Could it? And the second question is, does it Again, if it's done properly, could it help in terms of helping the church achieve some type of growth?

Short answer to both questions is yes, yes, and yes. I want to expand on that a little bit, and I want to tell a story. And again, I feel like I need to be circumspect, because not everybody in this story would appreciate me naming them. But some representatives of the church went to Los Angeles to meet with a guy I went to high school with, a guy in the entertainment industry. I could probably name him, but nobody would know him. And They were working to try to get better representation for for the church in the media. And after this meeting, one of the things that was funny is that my friend said, "Oh, you know, I only really knew one Mormon growing up, and I think maybe his dad was a senator or something." And they said, oh, you know Jim Bennett. And he said, no, no, no, no, I know Jimmy Bennett. Because I've known this guy since first grade. And he says, if you're ever in LA, let me take you to lunch. And I was in LA and he took me to lunch. And we had a really fascinating conversation. This guy is Jewish. As were most of my friends growing up. And he did, he literally knew nothing about the church. And he started asking me all of these questions about the church. They weren't like, you know, golden investigator style questions. They were more logistical questions. But he ended up making a really, really sage observation. He said, look, your church has no cultural footprint. And I said, well, geez, there have all been all these polls that show that we are the least liked religion in America. And he said, yeah, but all those polls mean is they don't know anything about you. He says, all I know about you is you don't drink coffee and you're polygamists. He says, that's all I know. I don't know anything. And he's like, and he's now working with the church on this other project. And, and he's just started saying, you guys need a seat at the table. And we talked about different ways to do that. And a lot of that involved podcasting. He had suggested an idea for a podcast that I still think is wonderful and that I would still love to sell the church on, and that's another story altogether. But I have marinated on that idea ever since then, this idea that the church has no cultural footprint. And it's true. It really is true. It's not that people hate us. It's that people don't know anything about us, and that's by design. We chose that. We made that decision as a church that we are going to separate ourselves from this evil, terrible, lone, and dreary world. And now we turn to that world and are surprised when we're rejected by it. And so, yes, absolutely, this solves So many problems. When President Oaks first became president of the church, he gave that wonderful devotional that I found equal parts brilliant and wildly frustrating. The brilliant part was that President Oaks outlined the problems the church is facing with a candor and a specificity and an insight that I had never seen from a church president. In public remarks. He talked about faithful people leaving the church. He talked about returned missionaries leaving the church. He talked about faithful people having questions about history and doctrine. And then the frustrating part was, so the solution is withdraw more, pull back, don't talk to people outside the church, don't counsel with the— I mean, President Nelson, That famous counsel, don't ever accept counsel from people who don't believe, which sort of flew in the face of his previous talk in the conference before that, where he was talking about being a peacemaker and talking about all this. And that seemed to be, to me, the approach. And you're seeing this in the response to Jeff Strong's book, you know, with Elder Corbridge talking about how your bishop could be Darth Vader. And the culture could be like Alcatraz, and you will stay because it's true. It's not enough that it's true, Elder Corbridge. It has to be good too. And it can't be good if it is disconnected from the world around us. And we can't expect the world around us to join with us if we don't reach out to them in a significant, good faith, Way, not in a manipulative way. You began this conversation, Ian, with the "Ye Are My Friends" program, and candidly, the "Ye Are My Friends" program was really kind of cynical because it wasn't about friends; it was about how do I manipulate my friends into joining the church? That's the only thing that matters. If they don't join the church. I'm moving on to somebody else. The friendship, the relationship itself has no value unless I can exploit it to get another baptism. This has the potential, again— well, first of all, it has the potential to be that. That's the thing that scares me. It has the potential that for all of this talk and for all of the backchannel stuff we're hearing, It still has the potential to slide back into that kind of nonsense, and that would be heartbreaking. But this is the first time I have ever heard of the church really putting all of its resources behind something where Ian Wilkes wouldn't have to fight to get a blood drive in the building. The church would recognize that that in and of itself has value. Whether or not anybody joins the church, and this seems to be a push in the direction to solve the problems that President Oaks outlined so brilliantly. And so, yeah, I when we were talking about this yesterday, I was kind of over the moon. It's why I couldn't really contain myself and had to post something. Just to say I'm hearing really great things. This really, I really think that if you're looking at this and you're just saying, yeah, so what? A community center, so what? I really think you're missing the boat here. I think you're missing the big picture here. And what scares me is that maybe some of the people who are looking at this and missing the big picture here may actually be people. in the church that have the ability to make this succeed. And I would hope that is not the case. I don't feel like that is the case. And you and I don't have any really hard evidence one way or the other. But the way this has been described to us and the way that this is being outlined going forward, it shows that there is a real potential here. And when I say revolutionary, I mean it. When people hear revolutionary about the church, it's like, well, are they going to give the women the priesthood? And are they going to— I mean, those are all really good questions, and those would all be revolutionary. But you don't have to change existing doctrine. You don't even have to change existing policy to do something like this. This can all be done within the framework of the church as it exists Right now, this very minute. And that's one of the things that makes it so exciting. This is the church living up to its potential. I mean, we have all the tools, we have the resources, we have the money, we have the time, we have the talent, we have all of this stuff. And it feels like this is the first time the church has said, Well, geez, this is the potential for what we could achieve with this stuff. Let's do it. And that's why I am so excited about it. That's why I get really kind of thrilled, worked up about it. I'm getting louder. My wife would probably, if she were home, yell at me, hey, you're too loud. But it's, it's really exciting to me. It's really, really exciting to me. And I hope, I hope and believe that it will be that. And there is the possibility that it won't, but I'm, I am putting my faith in the church here. And church, don't let me down. Let's make this work because this really, I think, is the work of the Lord. I don't think the work of the Lord You know, if you follow online Mormonism, you might get the impression that the work of the Lord is arguing with evangelicals about the Trinity or other kinds of sort of pointless, pedantic discussions of religious tenets. Well, there's a scripture that President McConkie on our mission used to quote. Where it says, of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt preach repentance and the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm paraphrasing that last part. I know that of tenets thou shalt not talk is a direct quote. I don't know where in the DNC it is, but it's there. Somebody will find it. But the point is, that's not the work of Christ. I really don't think that when we get to the next side, we're going to get a theological exam And we're going to be asked about the Trinity, and do we believe that God is one person or one substance or blah blah blah blah. That I just think that what the Lord is going to be concerned with is how much did we bless the lives of his other children? What did we do to make the world a better place? What would we what did we do to lift up others? What did we do? Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these, my brethren, ye have done it unto me. I mean, you read the New Testament over and over and over. The message is not religious exclusivity. The message is help everyone. One of the greatest messages that comes from the parable of the Good Samaritan, Is the identity of the Samaritan. It wasn't the priest or the Levite that helped the man bleeding by the side of the road. It was a member of the most despised and marginalized religious group on the earth at the time of the Savior. I've heard people say, if you were to do this in a modern, it would be you know, the good transgender person. I mean, this is somebody that the establishment and that most people just looked down on. A Samaritan was just the lowest of the low, and that's the person that Jesus used as the example. You know, I don't care that he's the lowest of the low. What I care about is he's the one who helped. He's the one— I mean, that parable comes in answer to the question, And who is my neighbor? And he says, your neighbor is everybody. And even a Samaritan, even the people you despise, those are your neighbors. Those are the people you should be helping. Those are the people that I have put you here to help. That I absolutely believe is the central focus of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I see this as the potential for the church to live up to its potential. And I really, really, really hope they don't screw it up.

Jim Bennett, you've absolutely nailed it. I would— there is a spirit in this conversation. I feel it. The spirit of goodness and intelligence and hope. And a scripture came to mind, which doesn't happen very often with me, to be fair, but it came to mind when I was listening to you. And here it is. And I did listen to what you said. It says here, it's in Nephi 33:1, and one of my favorite ones from the mission, it came back to me. He says, and now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my people, Neither am I mighty in writing like unto speaking. Well, Jim Bennett, you're a very intelligent writer and speaker. And then it goes on to say that, for when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost, the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth into the hearts of the children of men. And you spoke with passion, with spirit, with belief, with hope, with heart, mind, body strength. Because isn't it the— you said rightly, the ultimate achievement and goal of the church is to help others. And what better way to help someone than to fund or to help them get an education that has significant Blessings and rewards and benefits relating to self-esteem, self-worth, confidence, success, job security, family, friends, success in life. And Isn't the glory of God intelligence? And isn't, uh, the first law in heaven, I would argue, is love, not obedience. And what greater way can we show that we love someone by investing in them? Um, because at some point it, there has to be a practical, um, element to this. It's not enough to speak great words. It's not enough to be eloquent in writing or speaking. We have to translate that into something real, which the church does often really well. And this is core to the whole belief system of the church. It connects and ties everything together, and it addresses past failures. And I believe, Jim, that there is camps in the church that when they are, if they're involved in this and they're hearing about this or learning about this, they will have the same experience that I had. There'll be people that'll be for it and people that'll be against it. Mine would've succeeded. In the long term, when I was released, how many more, how many of those events took place after I was released? All the blood, blood transfusion events, all the Young Drivers Challenge events and, and the road safety events, which probably we did maybe 10, 15 or something like that. How many happened after I was released?

I'm guessing none of them.

Zero. And it's not because Ian Wilkes claimed to be this great bishop. because I'm not. Because frankly, they could have continued that. Relationship already existed, the model existed, the program existed. There was a template for success. Hundreds of people that weren't in the church, even associated, they heard about the church, came in and learned. And they looked at the pictures, by the way. We put the pictures up and we had a little booth about the church, just a little booth. just as you came in. A lot of people walked past it. They weren't there for religion, but they could stop and they came to the main event. And even now they talk about it, right? So I don't want to say anymore because I think I don't want to distract from what you've said and how you've said it, because you said it way more eloquently than me, frankly. And thank goodness you have. And I hope and pray this is real. I think it is. I believe it is. And if it is, then the church deserves all the acknowledgement and praise that you could heap on it. And it's absolutely fantastic. And I hope it's real and I hope it happens. And I believe it will. And I just want to just kind of finish off and give you the final words, of course, as you've been leading this conversation. I'm reminded by the question from Elder— from President Oaks about how we want to be remembered. And the church, if it does this and rolls it out and does it properly and makes it a success, which it can, All the resources exist if they're organized properly to make this a huge success, right? Everything to play for here. It's a win if they want it, right? But I can't think of a greater legacy that the church could leave this generation and future generations than something like this that ties everything together. And to quote Jim Bennett, to help it achieve its full potential, which you could argue, I would certainly, that the church has not yet, not yet achieved its full potential, notwithstanding the truth claims of the church being the only true church. So I want to end on that, and I would be grateful to hear your final concluding comments and thoughts, finish off on what you've said, and to kind of sew it all together to bring, you know, bring this conversation to a successful ending conclusion, and then invite people to comment and listen and hope as much as we do. So let's hand the time back over to you, Jim.

Well, I haven't I don't know that I have anything to add to that, Ian. I think you have really succinctly summarized this in a way that's appropriate. I've said quite a bit here. You've said quite a bit here. I think we both are filled with hope on this, and I think hope is a good thing. And hope— sometimes we put our hope in something that doesn't happen.

Yeah.

I think this will happen. I think that I am really excited by it. And I think, I think, I think you're right. There is a spirit here. And I think you have brought a spirit here to this discussion that you have been reasonable and thoughtful. I think it's really important that people hear from people like Ian Wilkes in that the One of the, one of the things that we do to alienate ourselves from the world is we especially alienate ourselves from people who choose to leave the church. Uh, it's not just, you're not just sort of misguided like the world. You, you left. So we have to demonize you. We have to beat up on you. And anybody who has listened to this conversation, I think anybody that listens to almost any of our conversations, but this one in particular, anyone listening to this conversation has to acknowledge your fundamental decency and really your continuing affection for the church. That when we say, okay, somebody has left And therefore everything good about them has left their lives, and all of the love that they have for the church has also left. That's a lie. I think that's always a lie. I think that's a huge mistake, and I think the church could benefit so much from hearing people like you and hearing you. Not just people like you, but hearing you make the case here for ways that the church, which you no longer feel you can be a member of, but you still want to see it reach its full potential. I think that's extraordinary. And I think that's important. And I, so I think that's the message here. You've said some very nice things about me. And I want to end with saying some nice things about you that are that are true. It looks like you want to say something else.

Yes. Listen, I must, forgive me, I must say one last thing. It's a scripture that comes to mind. So here's a scripture that I absolutely adore from a so-called apostate that I'd be described as being. So listen to this, Jim Bennett. You're going to love this scripture. You will know the scripture. This is in Ether 12:4. Amazing. Listen to this. Wherefore, in the context of what we've talked about, wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith. You talk about, you know, faith and learning centers, right? Maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast. You know, that confidence, that humble confidence that President Banks talked about, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God. That's the last thing I want to say.

Perfect. Perfect ending. I won't add anything to that. Thank you so much, Iain. This has been a wonderful conversation. Thank you all for listening to it. And we very much look forward to having continued conversations and continued expressions of hope as we go forward in future episodes of Inside Out.