Keeping Your Well Filled – with David Lee

Once again, we welcome back to the program one of my favorite people on the entire planet. He's an amazing— he's always been an amazing mentor and just a great presence in my life, even, even when we don't see each other for a while. But we've been staying in touch now, and the best part of it is I get to share him with you. So we're going to talk with David Lee on the Keep It Human podcast.

All right.

I met David years ago and he was instrumental. In fact, I just thanked him for this because he was instrumental in getting me started in this whole adventure in the first place. Always appreciate what he has to say, what he has to offer. His life experience is invaluable. So without further ado, here he is, David Lee. So glad to have you back. Now that you're in You're a regular.

Thanks, good to see you. And I love your intro music. That is such an upbeat tune.

Oh, I just wrote that about 5 minutes ago. I should say that comes from Envato Elements. Maybe they'll sponsor the show at some point. That's— yeah, no, good stuff.

That's awesome.

Yeah, so we're going to talk about— I love the theme that you wanted to talk about today, how to keep our wealth Do you want to talk about what that's all about?

Yeah. So first, like the old cliché about you can't give what you don't have, or the other one, you've got to put your oxygen mask on first when you're flying. On more like less metaphorical way of thinking about it, you think about it's so much easier to be patient with people, generous, thoughtful, et cetera, if we're rested, happy, filled with gratitude versus if we're tired, cranky, feeling resentful, depleted, et cetera. So getting good at keeping our well-filled, our battery charged, super important.

I'm so glad that's what you wanted to talk about because when you said that, it brought to mind a challenge I had when I was still a martial arts instructor. I was actually working with the instructors. We had an instructors' college. I kept saying, "Look, if you're going to teach, teach selfishly." They said, "Well, that sounds selfish." I said, "Well, yeah, it kind of is, but here's the thing." I said, "I think the least selfish thing we can do for other people is to improve ourselves, to take care of ourselves." Because if we don't do that, that's the only way we can bring more value to other people, isn't it? By making ourselves stronger, healthier, smarter, hopefully over time. So I think improving the self and taking care of the self is, is probably the least selfish thing you can do for the people around you.

Absolutely. Um, related to that, that I think about— so when we work on ourselves, we're more likely to bring our higher self to the world, whatever that looks and sounds like. And what's not awesome about that, you know, versus bringing our lower self. And maybe this isn't necessarily directly related to what we're talking about, but continually bringing a new and improved version of ourselves. I know before we started recording, we talked about both our propensities for reviewing, like, how did I, you know, did I say something that was unhelpful? Like, how come this interaction didn't go well? You know, who are the old monks that used to whip themselves bloody, right? So, you know, the healthy version of that, yeah, being willing to self-reflect and how can I be like What's my lesson here? How can I be a better version in the future, etc.?

What is it, mea culpa? Were you raised Catholic too?

No.

Jewish? Episcopal? One of the big guilt trip religions?

Agnostic.

Yeah. Well, we got it beat in. We got, yeah, we got guilt beat into us pretty good when we were kids growing up Catholic. But you know what? It's funny. I came to realize too, that's not necessarily, it's not necessarily the worst thing, right? To look in the mirror first if we feel like we've, we've caused somebody some discomfort. I don't think it's healthy to obsess there, and I know I've been there. I'm not speaking for you, but, um, yeah, I don't think it's the worst thing. I think you said earlier too, some people don't have that capability or don't, or at least refuse to engage with it, huh?

Yeah, so for me, so much of like our individual propensities is like, what's the happy medium? Like what's the Goldilocks just right amount, if you will? So with the self-reflection, like when does self-reflection turn into rumination and then yeah, self-flagellation and what's a useful amount of self-reflection on a situation and then letting it go, moving on?

That's a tough one too, isn't it? Because I know I actually teach meditation once in a while in workshops, and I have this little program I've called Sit Still, Shut Up, and Breathe, which is the masters that I studied meditation with. That's basically what they reduced it to, right? Sit still, shut up, and breathe. You can get more detailed than that, but I think that's a pretty good start for most people. But what I've noticed is people want to know, they always ask, how much time should, you know, how much time? I don't know. I say it really doesn't matter. I mean, if you do it for 3 or 4 minutes to start with, that's a pretty good start. It'll expand because it feels good. You don't need to shave your head and go live in a cave, you know, and practice this for hours or days on end in order to make it work for you. You can fit it into your day. It really doesn't take that much to have some benefit.

That's actually so, like, connected, connecting it to the theme of how do we fill our well, recharge our battery, and engaging in practices that do that for us. And then now specifically, we're talking about meditation. One of the two principles, well, no, one principle and a story, okay, for people who are like, oh, I'm just too antsy, too ADHD, PhD to meditate. That one principle that I love, um, comes from BJ Fogg, who is a Stanford professor. And he, um, I think he's the one who coined the term tiny habits. And it's like, if you want to, um, uh, get yourself to make it a habit to floss your teeth, like just floss one tooth or do push-ups, just do one push-up. And it's like, take this new healthy habit and like reduce it down to the most ridiculously small step that there's no way you can make an excuse that you could buy that you can't do it. Like, anybody can floss one tooth or try one push-up. And so for decades, I convinced myself I couldn't meditate, too antsy, like just a couple of minutes and I'm going crazy. And then with the Tiny Habits philosophy, I'm like, okay, I can, I could just do 1 minute, or if that's too much, 30 seconds. And then 30 seconds was no biggie, let's do a minute, etc. So that was one principle. And then actually there's one other that was a game changer for me. Do you know who Sharon Salzberg is? Does that name sound familiar?

It doesn't ring a bell.

Okay, so she's—

You always introduce me to these wonderful new people, so—

Oh, cool. Yeah. So she's a much beloved character in the Buddhist community and mindfulness and all that. I remember Tim Ferriss interviewing her about meditation. And he said, you know, what's your recommendation to people like me and my Type A personality, Silicon Valley founder friends, where, you know, super driven, and when we try to meditate, our mind instantly is thinking about a million things. And then we have to like go back to, you know, come up to focusing on our breathing, and then we're like, oh God, I'm thinking about something else. Like, what's your recommendation to us? And she goes, you're doing the practice. That is the practice. What you do, your mind wanders, you bring it back, your mind wanders, you bring it back. Yeah, yeah. And I remember like Oh my God, I'm doing it because I always thought like it was a— this is so ridiculous now— it was a waste of time. Like I would never see the benefit until like decades in the future when I became maybe a Zen master and to like empty my mind for hours at a time. Like until that point, it was like nothing was happening. And I'm like, oh my God, the The process, it's happening right now. I'm doing it.

It always is.

Let me stop. I want you to go for it, and then I want to share a story about that. Go for it, please.

No, it's so cool because you hit, you know, the whole principle of burn your books, right? People get so obsessed with these practices. The famous Buddhist saying, you know, you have to burn your books. You have to— you can study, you can ruminate about these things, but at some point you just have to do it, right? And what you hit on, the way I understood it from some of the masters, I was so blessed to have so many cool masters, very human masters. And remember Dr. Young, who I always talk to you about, right? The way he said it is he said, all we're doing is kind of, I'm paraphrasing it, but all we're doing is kind of making a process or a system out of what happens naturally, right? We can't possibly stop thinking. We can't possibly stop noticing things. It just doesn't happen. So it's a matter of gaining some— I'm using this word carefully— some illusion of control over that process, right? A recognition. Here comes the thought. Let it go. In the West, we're too obsessed with somehow this idea of perfection. One of the great gifts of martial arts, part of my martial arts life, was this realization that perfection is not a destination. It's not a static state. It's a never-ending process. So as we engage in the process, but I didn't want to let this go to the tiny disciplines, the tiny habits you talked about.

Tiny habits. Yeah. BJ Fogg.

Well, that's so cool because to a martial artist, a discipline is nothing more than the cultivation and practice of meaningful and purposeful habits. Right. And I think a lot of people can relate to this to kind of bring it down to earth. But, you know, we all, we both work conferences all the time. Right. How many times do people go to a big conference? Conferences, and they load that swag bag up with dozens of different handouts and books and brochures and all this. They've gone to 3 dozen sessions that week, right? And they're going to do everything. One of the things I try to point out when I'm doing a big conference like that, at the end I said, "Look, just pick one. Pick one thing that you're going to work on, because otherwise you're not going to do anything, and in 5 years later you're going to open the closet and there's the bag full of the stuff you you were gonna do the week you attended, right? So no, that's so cool. And you're talking about focus is really what it is. And again, to kind of bind it all together to a martial artist, we realize that focus is, you can't like, mm, concentration like that doesn't work. It stresses you out. Focus is a process of letting go. Let go of the distractions, let go of the distractions, but you can't prevent them. You just notice them and let them go, which is what you just said. Yeah, beautiful.

And also there's something you said I want to tag on and then share this story that fits in with creating healthy habits. Also, when you talked about just observing your thoughts, that they're constantly going, I love, love, love, love that slogan, don't believe everything you think. And how often it's natural for us, you know, to have a thought and then latch onto it and then build a story around it. And it's like, we don't know where all these thoughts come from. You know, what thing that we might have heard somebody say yesterday that was like brewing in our unconscious mind, and then it pops up in our mind, and then now we latch onto it, we start obsessing about it. And creating a story, and now we're in a bad mood. And it's like, versus like, oh, there's a thought. And you've probably heard this, heard people, meditation teachers, when you're trying to meditate, or not trying, when you're meditating, just say thinking, thinking, thinking, just to remind yourself it's just thoughts coming through, no need to latch on to or attach to them.

Well, that's interesting too. A lot of this stuff gets badly, badly translated, right? A lot of people that practice some of these things, and there's some other areas you should talk about too, they hear about a mantra, right? A word or a phrase that you repeat over and over again. A very famous one is the Nichiren Buddhists. They say Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. If you watch the Tina Turner movie, you heard that one, right? And you chant. I've been part of that. It's kind of a cool thing when you have a bunch of people. Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. So there's a vibe that gets going. And the weird thing is, those words don't translate into English at all. There's no real— there's an allusion to the Lotus Sutra stuff, but they don't really mean anything. And you can say almost anything, okay? But people get obsessed with the symbolism of the words. All you're doing is you're giving your conscious mind some place to focus. And that's part of the process of letting go of the other distractions around you. But you get it from a lot of ways. Like, you know, I know you like, you like your water sports and stuff, right? Surfing and things like that. When you're there and you're riding the wave, it's the same process. You can't, you just don't think about anything else, right? You are in the zone, we call it in athletics, right? And that's a healthy place to be. You also touched on something I think is really important though, that idea that, that thought that keeps coming back and that we process it differently. You know, recent studies have really shown how how fallible our memory is, even at its best, right? Our memory is nothing more than us recreating these stories and these bits and snippets, and the brain puts it together in a way that makes sense here and now, but might be completely different than what actually happened, right? I've learned not to trust my memory at all, not one bit. And, you know, it causes me— it's not a detriment, it causes me to really have to think and process you know, what I'm trying to recall in order to make sense of it. I don't know if that helps people, but yeah, we're giving people a lot of work to do.

Their swag bag is already filling up.

Pick one.

That's— damn, that's— that is such a, I think, important, like, life lesson, um, that, um, that old saying back in the day, is it live or is it Memorex? That's a throwback of the younger folks. That has zero meaning. What that was about is realizing we can just totally believe that's what happened, and chances are way better that not how it happened. In fact, there's a, um, a really fascinating book called On Being Certain by a neurologist. Yeah, on the neurology of the neuroscience of the felt sense of certainty, and how you could be certain and then absolutely wrong. And like one of the studies was during the Challenger disaster, how a psychologist had people right after it happened, write down where they were, what was going on when they heard it. And then years later, ask them to recall what, where they were, what was going on when they heard it. And then they compared it to what they wrote. And it was like, for most people, way off. And back to feeling like, no, no, no, no. There were people who would look at their writing of what happened and say, that wasn't me, or okay, maybe I wrote that, but I got it wrong. So that, yeah, just feeling like what I remember now is the truth, as opposed to—

yeah, that word, right? That word, the truth. You know, it's interesting too, years ago we were training law enforcement people when we were running the martial arts centers, and they would say that everybody talks about eyewitnesses. And what I came to understand is that's probably— I— an eyewitness account by itself is not— it's not even close to the most reliable evidence that you can use because of that. And it's weird too, and to kind of bring it to earth too, because I think the problem that a lot of us have, it's the worst part of the memory that seems to be the thing we obsess about. I think that's, I think that's kind of a survival mechanism. I think that kind of helps us course correct as we go along. But having said that, it's, it's based on what you said, you know, what is that memory actually made of? Like I said, they still don't understand a lot, but they understand a lot more than we used to, right? It might have been that somebody gave you a look, right? And it might have nothing to do with anything that we're projecting, or any— they might not even be paying attention to us. We just pick up on the look. And now when we're reconstructing that, because the context is in this case, maybe, what did this person think of me? Or what, how did this person react to me? Now, what is our brain doing? It's going back and it's— AI programmers are really the ones that are starting to unlock this because AI works the same way. What's it doing? It's going and finding things that are similar, right? And trying to bring it together in context. And our brain does exactly the same thing. So that look might have triggered any number of other experiences that we had. And then in the moment, we put it together and we feel it as, oh God, that person hated me, or I upset that person. And how often is it just not even the case? What's that great saying? It says, when you worry about what other people think of you, just remember that they usually don't.

Right. The sad reality of life.

I hope that helps people a little bit.

So two things related to what we're talking about right now. Um, so one is I heard, um, a comedian on a podcast say how it dawned on her finally how humans are projection machines, how we just project our stuff onto other people. Um, and It makes me think of, and hopefully I haven't shared this story with you, but it's such, I think, a classic metaphor for—

If you have, you know my memory, so I—

Yeah, I know, not an issue. Yeah, not a problem. Oh God, I love it. So this is a story I love using in seminars when I'm talking about the stories we tell ourselves about why did that person say that or do that? And it gets to what you were talking about, like going through our memory banks to try to make sense of that person's expression, like the thing that you were talking about. And so what happened was I was listening to a podcast and the lady who does the podcast, the podcast is called Things That Will Help. And she's a yoga teacher, a mom of two kids, and just really like simple wisdom. So a cool podcast. And one of the things that I like about the podcast is she has a real soothing voice, like a Southern drawl kind of voice. And so one day I fire up her podcast and I notice right off that there's something wrong with her. Because instead of that soothing voice, it's kind of a frantic, frenetic voice. And I'm like, I wonder if something's going on in her life. And, you know, she frequently talks about like her husband and two kids. I'm like, hope the kids are okay. So I'm trying to make sense of it. And I immediately go to, there's some problem that she's struggling with. And then I start to detect what seems like an edge and kind of a harshness. And now it's becoming more about like me and I'm feeling a little annoyed, like she's harshing my mellow. You know, I'm looking forward to this warm, soothing voice. And now there's this hard edge and like, I'm not digging this. Like, what are you doing? And so now I'm getting kind of judgy.

She's wrecking your day.

She's wrecking my day. Hey, exactly.

It's all about me.

And then I'm like, it's not about me. And then I'm like, oh, wait a minute. I look at my phone. It was on Spotify. I had it on 1.25 speed. And so when I put it back to normal, suddenly she's fine. She's calm. She's okay. And I thought, what a great metaphor in like two different ways. So one is it's a perfect metaphor for— it's natural for us to tell ourselves stories to try to make sense of the world. That's important survival tool. Like, if we're totally bumbling through life and don't understand why things happen the way they do, like, that's not helpful. But it's important to realize the story we're using to explain to ourselves it might be right or it might be dead wrong. So that's one thing, like don't buy into your story, explore it and then challenge it. And then number two though, is kind of like what you were getting to, it's like, it's not always them, it could be us. So in this case, it was my phone, but it could just have easily been, I was in a weird mood and I wasn't aware of it and I'm projecting it onto her. Or back to your example, this person, let's say her voice reminded me of a teacher that was really mean. And maybe this is the sweetest person in the world, but she's got this unpleasant voice. So that little story as a, hopefully a catalyst for people to think about pulling back their projections. Yeah, if they're, if they're having a negative response, and maybe it is the other person, you know, sometimes it is, but not to assume that's, if that's the only—

it shouldn't be the default position, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. It's funny because— oh, thanks for plugging the new project. Um, the The book I'm working on currently is called The Only Certainty, which of course the only certainty is uncertainty, right? And how do we embrace that? How to be flexible, adaptable, more comfortable with uncertainty. And so you hit that. I think it's very important, not just for leaders, for anyone, you know, well, everybody's a leader, you know, I should have disclaimed that. But that idea that it's okay, in fact, it's healthier, it's more productive to have a healthy degree of uncertainty. Internally and externally, but especially now we're talking about internally, that I question myself. I question what I did, what I perceived that I did, how I think other people are perceiving me, my decisions that I make, right? It's a great strength in being comfortable with that uncertainty. Not that you— again, we're not back to whipping ourselves with— what the heck did they use anyway? I know I saw it in a movie. It was pretty gruesome. Was it— what is it? No, not Da Vinci. Yeah, was it Da Vinci Code? I don't remember.

Anyway, I think you're right. It was, um, there were switches. Yeah, there was some kind of switch.

Yeah, I gotta ask my AI guy what, what, uh, denomination amongst those were because, yeah, it was, that was pretty wild. Um, so yeah, that's the thing, that's the trick though, isn't it? And I think, um, I'm going to offer some very practical advice, something that I learned, something that's very difficult for me to learn. I have a real hard time asking for help, real hard time asking for help. But I've learned that's one of the best things we can do, especially when we're feeling a little unsure, right? Especially when we're having a hard time interpreting what we're feeling, what we're seeing, what we're experiencing. The best mirror for ourselves is the people around us, right? And so I think it's good. Don't just pick one in this case, because that can be pretty distorted too, right? But yeah, without, you know, you don't have to whip yourself, bare your soul, or cry in your beer in front of people, but to go out and seek the advice of others. Say, hey, this is what I, this is how I'm feeling, this is what I think happened, what do you think? And the more that I've become comfortable with doing that, it helps a lot. You know, it helps a lot. Doesn't take all the pain away sometimes, but it gives some clarity.

You think about it, not only is it super useful because you're getting multiple perspectives and perspectives from people who aren't in the midst of the drama you or I might be experiencing. So, from a practical point of view, super useful. But also, you think about back to the work that you're doing around being comfortable with the unknown and uncertainty. Being willing to ask for help tells ourselves, I'm not so fragile that I can't do that. Like, my ego strength is strong enough to acknowledge I'm not a god, acknowledge, you know, I don't have all the answers.

No, I appreciate that you you framed it that way because it takes strength, it takes some courage to do that. And again, I hope people understand we're not talking about constantly coming out and just emotionally draining other people with your problems, right? Oh my God. No, but in a healthy way, approach people and approach— I think most of the time it can be pretty positive. I just shared one with you earlier, right? This is a situation that I had and this This is how the person reacted. And it's always interesting. Your response to that was helpful and validating. Or it could have been corrective too. And let's make sure, because that's where the strength and the courage comes in. Courage is not the absence of fear. The absence of fear is stupidity. And courage is facing your fears, right? So sometimes we have some trepidation about, hey, what did David think about this situation I had? He might think I'm a total ass. And there's— there I go to Wayne's World again, right? I'm not worthy. But, um, yeah, but it's, uh, but that's healthy. And, and it does give it— and I think for me, maybe this is the fighter instinct in me, that, um, you know, you want course correction. You get in the corner, you want your trainer to tell you what the hell's going on, and you want to fix it fast, right? Otherwise you can't keep pounding. So to reach out to somebody you trust and say, this is what I'm experiencing, have to get give you a little course correction is really helpful sometimes.

You know, and this is interesting, and for viewers or listeners, as we often— Jim and I oftentimes do, we're going into different territories than where we started, which is cool. Hopefully it'll be cool for listeners or viewers. But I love this because it, to me, so asking for perspective, asking for help, that brings up a really, to me, useful, like, how to human, you know, we talk about how to adult, like, how to human topic of both how to help people be helpful to you and how to be helpful. And so how to help people be helpful for you. One of the things that I try to be clear with is to avoid the situation that we've all had where let's say you just want to vent and the person immediately gives you advice and you're like, I wasn't looking for advice. I just wanted to share this. So that's one, like where it goes wrong. Another kind of more nuanced version of that is I've had situations where I'll say, I would love your perspective on this. How would you have dealt with this situation? Or how would you have perceived this situation? And I'm trying to make it clear to the person, I'm not asking you to tell me what I should to do. I'm asking— I'm data collecting. Like, I'm really fascinated by multiple perspectives, right? And sometimes, like, a person will, will get into the, um, advice giving, like, well, I think what you should have done. And sometimes I'll, when I'm in a more assertive mode, I'll say, like, just a second, I'm not asking you to tell me what I should do. I'm just really curious, like, how you would have handled that.

Yeah.

So that's, you know, asking for perspective, not advice. So there's, do you want advice or just to vent? Do you want advice or do you want perspective or something else?

So I like a lot about what you say, and one of the most important things is that We could get into this another day. I always argue about the process of communication. We know it's not one way. Most people say it's two-way. I think it's a cycle. I think it's a big cycle with a lot of little cycles wrapped up, and you just hit a huge application for that. It's our responsibility sometimes to provide some clarity if we're seeking advice or seeking some counsel, right? To set the expectation, I'm sharing this with you. This is what I'm looking for. For, not make the other person guess. But I'm also going to respectfully, as we wrap things up, I'm going to respectfully disagree. I don't think we went off on tangents today. I think the through line was what you started with, right? How to keep the well filled, self-health. Now, a lot of times when people talk about this, they go exercise, duh, we have to exercise. We've got to eat right, duh. Don't drink too much alcohol, ah, the hell with that one. And, you know, on and on and on, right? But very seldom do people talk about, you know, the deeper levels of what we just shared today, right? These things are essential if you, if you're going to take care of yourself. In fact, I think it's much harder to do the other things if you don't practice what we talked about today, right? Um, good point.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, and, and, and also the, um, so yeah, um The piece that we just talked about in terms of getting perspective, advice, seeking help, those all can go under the category of creating more nourishing relationships. And like, that's obviously super important.

To you mortals, not to— I don't need that, but the rest of you have to suffer with me. What'd you say? I said not to— You know, to you mortals, that's very important.

I also, back to the being comfortable with the unknown. I can, I'd like to just say a little bit more about that and link it back to the tiny habits, the like baby steps thing for like we started off with meditation and like, or maybe it is like working out or whatever. That the thing that after like the Sharon Salzberg, like you're already meditating and the baby's, the tiny steps or tiny habits. And I would like do like 1 to 5 minutes of meditating. And then I ended up going to a weekend meditation retreat, which if anybody had ever said I would do such a thing. Like even a year before, I'd say you're insane. I would go nuts doing something like that. But because I had a friend who was really into that, I thought, oh, like I will like learn more about it. So I went to a weekend meditation retreat and discovered that I could actually sit for like 15 minutes at a time, 20 minutes at a time. Amazing. And it wasn't the end of the world. And, and I don't meditate every day, but I do it often enough. And I do it for a length of time, like I'll do like 10, 15, 20 minutes that again, years before, no way I can do. And I wanted to get that point in because it also not only does it relate to stepping outside our comfort zone and developing a new identity, like, I can do this, like, I can meditate, or I can enjoy exercise. Like, I just hadn't found a type of exercise I enjoyed until now. Let's say that could be an identity change for somebody, or like, whatever is a level of uncertainty for a person listening or watching this, like, that's kind of a scary unknown. It's like, what's a situation you can plunk yourself into, like me at the meditation retreat, that can give you a new experience that can help change your identity? Like, oh, I can handle this. So yeah, I'd love to hear what comes up for you.

That sounds like a whole other episode because—

oh, we could do that in another episode.

Because that's terribly important. We're wired to be learning. It's part of our survival mechanism, right? And we're wired to seek out challenges, particularly intellectually. So no, that's critically important. The other thing— I'm going to argue with you again, though, because you meditate all the time and you mentioned some of the practices. And I'm going to point this out because I think other people will relate to it. You love to go out and do walks. You love to go out and do your photography. And all those are moving meditations. I wish I could remember the name in Chinese, but for Tai Chi practitioners, there's a Chinese term for the long forms, for the dances, right? And part of that, part of that meaning is a moving meditation. Okay, so it doesn't have to be the stoic sitting still, all that stuff. There's a lot of ways people can get into the zone we're talking about. So no, I think that's really important. Yeah. So, wow. I think that's a lot for today.

Yeah. Cool.

But the whole thing, right? How did you say it? Filling your own well, self-health, right? Just taking care of yourself. It's the least selfish thing you can do. You take care of yourself, you become more valuable to the people around you. If you don't keep yourself healthy and strong and engaged and interesting, then what good are you to other people, huh?

Yeah.

Final words. Let's tell people how to get to you too as well.

Oh cool. Yeah, thank you. Um, my two websites are Human Nature at Work and then Soul Satisfying Work.

Those are two damn good websites too. Oh, lots of good stuff there. All right, so we're going to have you back again, and now hopefully we'll save the notes so we'll remember what the hell we wanted to talk about. But to fit— now listen, keep tuning in. Uh, make sure that if you haven't already, get on the network. If you're seeing this somewhere else, get on the Keep It Human network. I think it's up here somewhere. Where am I pointing? Keep It Human network. There it is. Keepithuman.network. There's a free forever plan there. It's called the Engage plan, and we're stocking it full of a lot of things. We just, we're putting some of the wrapping on the IEG experience, Inspire Power Guide. That's the online course. But it's not a static course. We're adding videos to it over the next couple of weeks, but it's always going to be a living, growing thing. We'll put stuff up, we'll take stuff down in there, and I talked to David already about contributing something there too as well. So anyway, David, as always, thank you so much for being with us today. It's always a pleasure.

Absolutely.

We'll have you back soon.

Awesome.