Communication Awareness

Hello, everybody out there in the contracting world. Welcome to Contractor Radio. In this week's episode, I get the distinct pleasure of being your host. I am Coach Nathan Thibodeau and we are going to be talking about communication. We're just going to kind of scratch the surface on this thing. This is a huge topic. There's a lot that goes into it. Human beings are complex, dynamic creatures and so we're probably not going to be able to cover everything as it pertains to communication. But my hope is to scratch the surface a little bit on this today and we're going to bring somebody aboard to help us have this conversation. So really look forward to talking about this. But before we do that, we're going to grab a word from our sponsors. Our sponsors make Contractor Radio possible. So please take some time, listen to what our sponsors have to say and show them a little love. Check out their website, reach out to those folks, find out how they can help you in your business and we'll be right back.

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Thank you so much for joining us today in Contractor Radio. I have with me one of our newest additions to our team who's yet to make an appearance on Contract Radio. Mr. John Townsend. How are you doing today, sir?

I'm doing really well, Nathan, how about you? I'm excited to dive into this topic, man, me too.

Communication is one of my favorite things to talk about. And honestly, John has had a lot of experience in life with communication because John has actually been a professional athlete. So he's been coached and communicated to by hundreds of people who have led him and worked on him and worked with him. And so I thought it would be really cool to have John join us, talk a little bit about this. So tell us a little bit, John, about some of your experiences with coaching.

Yeah, so like you said, Nathan, I was really blessed. I was an athlete growing up and I have, you know, of course there is a big difference between coaching at the amateur level and then coaching at the professional level. But I was blessed enough to sign with the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim and play professional baseball for about five years. And as you can imagine, different leaders lead in different ways. So there was. There were. I think I've tallied it up to about 50 different managers and coaches that I've worked with. All, all with different capacities that have all, you know, basically brought to the table their own. Their own leadership style, their own communication style. A few of them worked, many of them did not. And admittedly, I've always been hypersensitive to communication, to messages that are being delivered, how they're being delivered, and whether or not they're being received. And so I always. It's really. Ultimately, Nathan, it's what drove me to be passionate about coaching was understanding the impact that a coach can have, that a leader can have in an organization. Right, right. And so it was. I was very blessed, man, looking back, to just spend time around just really great leaders, really great leaders. All of them. All of them, regardless of the success they had there, I just. I consider them great. So. And professional sports did, you know, it's. It's, you know, it slapped me in the face, I'll say, with. With, you know, the impact that a coach and a mentor can have. Yeah.

So very cool. So you've had a lot. You've had a lot of experience with a lot of different people are trying to teach you stuff, right?

Yeah, yeah. And not just me, you know, trying to teach a group, trying to. Trying to create, buy in, trying to do it in different ways in accordance with a philosophy and core values. So, yeah, great exposure. So.

We had communication as one of the topics for one of our coaching sessions that we did at Contractor Coach Pro earlier this week. And so one of the things that I wanted to bring, I found helpful to me when I started thinking about how to increase my communication and what are some of the things that I need to become aware of that for me, I mean, I used to have a thing on my sign behind me that said awareness creates growth. Right. Because you have to be aware of a particular thing before you can work on it. And so one of the. I started thinking, well, what do I need to be aware of when it comes to communication? What should I be opening my mind up to and paying attention to when I communicate with people? Obviously I should pay attention to what they're saying and they're talking to me, but there's so many other things, things that go into it, somebody's body language, their eye contact, their voice inflection, all this stuff. And I started Digging into different content and different things. And one of the things that I found helpful was this dual concept of what people communicate and how people communicate. And it's pretty basic and straightforward, but it was the first place I started to try and develop and create awareness for myself in learning how to communicate better. And so we talked a little bit about this idea that on the what people communicate. So let's talk a little bit about that first. The what people communicate. People tend to default to one side of this or the other. Okay. Now, I think all of us human beings pretty much live on a spectrum, right? Some of us are hobby athletes, right? And some of us are pure bred athletes, right? And so. And some of us aren't even remotely close to being an athlete. So between not being an athlete and being an athlete, there's a whole spectrum of, of human beings. And so I think this is a similar concept. So with what people communicate, I think people in general tend to default to either communicating facts or communicating emotions. Now, once again, this isn't just a black and white rule, right? So I think people can be in between these two, these two hard places. They can be anywhere on that spectrum, but people tend to default a little bit to one or the other. Which one do they tend to default to? So in my mind, I think about like somebody who's an engineer. You know, they deal with just hard data, hard information, just pure facts in order to, you know, be an election, excuse me, electrical engineer or a biochemist or they just, they're constantly talking about and dealing in facts all the time. And that's how they communicate in their job, probably with a lot of other people. I've sold, I've done sales and had my buyer be an engineer. And the questions that they asked were different than they were somebody who was not an engineer. So I think about somebody who maybe is like, like a therapist or a psychologist, right? They definitely deal in some facts, for sure. But as it pertains to communicating with people, they deal with emotions a lot. They speak a lot in emotions and feelings and experience and impact and how somebody sees the world. And they deal with a lot of emotion. And so the, what people communicate was kind of the first place I went. John, what are your thoughts on those two. Those two things?

Yeah, so I think that, I mean, that's a great visual of this spectrum and like in many other spectrums, I mean, political spectrum, you know, I mean, politically, racially, even in even, you know, there maybe your, you know, church denominations. It's so weird. I often see this in my church denominations, like there's a spectrum. And in the lies, when we, when we find ourselves committed totally to one end of the spectrum.

Right.

And that's where. That's where, like that's where the, that I think that the, the harmful communication can happen is when we commit to one and we stay there. We're not willing. And so much of it is, like you said, about awareness or just simply recognizing that somewhere within this spectrum, like 90% of us generally live in the middle. Right. And balance that balance. We try to maintain a balancing act because sometimes we need more data, sometimes we need to be more emotionally driven or communicative. But it's just a willing. I think it starts with the willingness. The willingness to understand that there are folks that, that aren't like me. Right. Per se. I mean, that's. And that's another component, right. Is understanding how I communicate, how I typically communicate. But I think that the date. Inevitably. What I'm trying to say is that the danger lies in just being totally committed to one end of the spectrum. Whichever. If it's being factual or being emotional, if that's where you choose to lie, there are absolute pros to each. Absolutely. But being absolutely committed to one, you know, is a slippery slope and can really, you know, it'll work oftentimes, but it will. It will not.

Well, people who, people who tend to default. Let's just say people tend to default in communicating factually. They talk about the who, the what, the where, the when. Right? Those are all factual components. They talk about numbers, they talk data, they talk the history of how something happened. Like this happened, then this happened, and then this happened. Right? And that's a lot of. They just, they want to deal with the cold, hard facts or the truth. And oftentimes it's because there's just really not much. There's not much wavering there. It's like the number is either this or the number is that. There's no, there's no, there's no way to argue about it. It's one or the other. Right. It's a one or a zero. And so people, people communicate in those. In facts. And when they do, facts are helpful, like you said, Right? They're definitely helpful. And so we'll talk a little bit about people who communicate in emotions. You know, people who communicate in emotions. Oftentimes, I've noticed, they will communicate emotions as if they are facts when they speak an emotion. And so if you're, if you're in the contracting business and you've Dealt with a client and they have an emergency in their home or catastrophes happened, or they're looking at this big home project that they have and they start saying things like, oh, this is going to take forever. It's so stressful. There's going to be a lot of. A lot of loud noises and we're going to be tearing things apart and I'm going to have to, you know, be home and in and out and strangers coming to my house, and it's just going to be. It's just going to be this big thing I'm just really not looking forward to. They didn't really state much in the way of facts. They really stated a lot of emotion around those.

Right.

They state. They stated emotions that they are feeling about this potential project that's coming along. Right.

That were firm facts to them.

Right. That's what they think is going to happen. And to them that's a fact. And that. And they're. And they're communicating all these emotions around this whole project. Right. So what do you think would happen if somebody who wasn't really paying attention too much to that just started communicating facts to that person? What do you think that would do to them?

I think that, well, they would feel. I think, number one, we all have this innate desire to be heard and understood, right. And so I think that they would feel as if they are not at all like their problem. If they are at opposite. If they are at opposite ends of the spectrum, then yeah, sure, you might be saying two plus two equals four. Okay. But what I'm hearing is not that. Okay. And so whatever message you're trying to deliver, whatever value proposition, you know, if it's in a sales environment or even internally, right. Like if, if, you know, you're using the emotional words, like if somebody admits to being stressed or overwhelmed or concerned or worried about. I mean, these are things that need to be delicately addressed and need to be, you know, that needs to be spoken to that level. So any message, I think, whether it's up or down the chain of command can be totally missed. Totally missed by not. But just by not recognizing the. Yeah. That the need. The prerequisite there to like, to want to be heard. That we all have.

Yeah.

And it's so funny though, the person, if you are speaking, if you default to speaking factual, you just want to be heard as well. Right? You just want to be heard as well. So that, I mean, you have equal ownership of saying. Of delivering a message that can't, you know, that can be. Can be Heard to get to solve a problem. Right.

Well, in that scenario, I think about the times that I've dealt with that, and over here, if this person is communicating that stuff to me and I'm not paying attention, I might think, well, I just need to explain to them this process and educate them about all the facts and all the things that are going to happen, and then that will definitely help. But in fact, what I might be doing is explaining all the things that we're going to do and what's going on that might only be increasing their anxiety about this whole thing, when in fact, I might need to go, okay, I'm going to leave the facts aside for just a second. And now I'm going to address the emotional component. No, Mrs. Smith, I tell you what, I know this seems like a really big deal. I know that it seems like there's a whole lot of things that are going to happen, but let me. Let me just communicate to you what I'm going to do. What I'm going to do is I'm going to communicate with you when we're coming out, I am going to introduce all of my people to you so that you know them and you know their names, and then we're going to lay out a little plan and a schedule for how this thing's going to go down. And we're going to try and work in your schedule, too, so you don't feel like you're locked down at our beck and call, but you're going to have freedom and you're not going to have to worry about any of this stuff. We're going to clean this stuff up. We're going to take care of the. Right. So now all of a sudden, I'm addressing these emotions on an emotional level rather than just talking about this entire production process on our house.

Yeah, right.

That's that shift. But we, once again, like, for me, it's like, oh, I have to be aware. This person is communicating some anxiety and some concern and some fear over this whole thing. Those are not going to be addressed with facts. Right now if I'm in that same situation and the engineer starts saying, well, exactly how heavy are these, Are these shingles? Or how many of them are there? Or how many nails do you use? What kind of nails are there? What's the tensile strength of your. Of your underlayment or of your, you know, like, how dense is that?

Right.

I got. This engineer now is asking me these questions that. About facts. So in this case, I'm like, well, let's bring some facts to this person because that's what they're asking for. But I need to be aware of that too. I need to be aware of how I communicate on a default level. And then I also need to start paying attention. And that's what I found. Started to make sense to me because I started to see it. I started to go, oh, this person is communicating factually, they want data from me. Or this person is communicating emotionally, they need. I need to communicate emotion back to them.

Yeah. The question I had for you was how do we draw that out in any environment, in any conversation, communication environment, whether it's a sales call, we'll use the example of a sales call. How do we draw out their communication style?

So this is one of my favorite things, continually is asking questions.

Oh yeah.

Like if you think about there's this thing in human beings, we love to be asked questions. We love it. And little pro tip for free here. We also love to hear our own name, by the way. So if you wanted to try and draw out how somebody communicates, you got to ask some questions and get them talking. Okay. And you want to ask a neutral question where the response to it could be, I'm not asking for emotions and I'm not asking for facts. I'm simply going to ask. So I might say something like in this, we'll just keep with this scenario we're talking about. I might say something like, so, Sally, what do you think about this process?

Right.

And then Sally might respond with, well, I think it's. I think you guys are going to take care of this. I think we're going to be good. If she starts communicating emotions back to me, that is telling me, that's signaling to me that when I asked her what she's thinking, she goes to emotion, how she feels about it.

Right.

If I ask Sally, Sally, what do you think about this? And Sally says, I think this product is great. I think the product warranty is awesome. I love the fact that it's got 120 mile an hour wind thing. I love the colors that are involved here that I get to pick from. I love that it's going to be strong and that Sally starts communicating back to me facts. I'm like, okay, that's the signal that when I asked what she thought, what she gave me were facts or what she gave me was emotion.

Now you have the opportunity to really.

Educate and educate in the way that.

They would receive it, that she can hear it, that Sally can hear it. I think that, yeah, I mean, we all know that salespeople talk too much. But asking questions is such a wonderful way, I think. But the underlying factor is, okay, why do we talk so much? We have. We want to be heard as viewed as the expert. Right. We want to be viewed as the trusted advisor.

Right.

We want to be viewed as the authority, the person that's in control of the conversation. But the reality is it's the person asking the questions that's in control of the pace of the conversation. And then, like you said, which side of the spectrum we now go to. I got to share this. In my time as working as a sales coach, we used to run a drill. Okay. That was. I thought it was fun. Nobody else thought. But, yeah, we're. We're essentially. This is. This is the entirety of the drill.

You.

You go to an appointment. I mean, let's use an example, a roof leak. Okay. Roof leak. And you go to an appointment and you show up and you say. You say, hi, you know, I'm. Introduce yourself. When we spoke on the phone or when you talk to such and such, you said you mentioned some roof leaks. Now, from the drill starts right now. And for the. For the entirety of the drill until. Until you get stuck, the only two things you can say are why? And can you tell me more about that?

Right.

And so what. What ended up happening when they. When. And did it get awkward? Sure, sure.

But.

But inevitably, if you. So you walk into this. Let's use this roof leak as an example. You told me we had roof leaks. Can you tell me more about that? Well, yeah, yeah, they're in the break room. You know, it's got. Got this one thing. You know, it's. Obviously, it's bringing in some water. We got a little drip, and we need to get it taken care of quickly. Okay. Why? Right. Well, our employees are getting pissed off. It's in the break room. You know, I'm concerned about slip and falls, and, you know, I just feel like it's the best thing for us to do. Can you tell me more about that? Yeah. Well, I mean, these. These are people that, you know, they work really hard. This is their only spot, you know, and so now, I mean, that's just one example.

Right?

But as a result of asking questions, what, What. What we found was you've only got two clubs in your bag. You're not stuck thinking about what you're going to say next. When you really ask questions, not only are you in the pace and in control of the conversation and in control of the pace, but now you're actually listening. Like, you don't have to worry about what you're going to say next. There's only two things you can say.

Why?

Or can you tell me more about that?

Right. Oh, my goodness, that's. That is so good. Why? Or can you tell me more about that? So if you're listening, you should jot that down and start trying that drill out on some folks, because you're right, you also kind of. In communication, a lot of people try to dominate the conversation, and the way that they dominate or control the conversation is by talking more than somebody else. Right. However, asking questions is a way to direct the conversation, because by asking the question, you are deciding what the next thing is we're going to talk about because you just asked about it. That's brilliant. That's great. That's a big, big component of communication, and I think that's a really great thing that you brought forward. So, I mean, and those questions, too, like you said, those questions are going to draw out of the person you're asking whether or not they tend to think in more. They tend to think and communicate in emotion or whether or not they tend to think and communicate in facts. Yeah, right. Because if that guy says to you, well, you know, the reason why we got to get this leak fixed is because if we don't, it's going to ruin the cabinets, it's going to mess up the floor. We're going to have to pay money to fix those things. It's going to cost more in the future. The break room is going to be down, which is going to affect productivity. Now, all of a sudden, this person is talking data, facts, information. And what. And what you said with the other one is, it's going to affect our employees. They don't have a safe place to hang out and eat their food. They're going to have to go to their desks. And that person is actually communicating a little more concern emotionally for their. That's really, really good. So.

And the only. And. And well, and then. And likewise, you just. So, yeah, you. You are now positioned to actually help. And the person feels like they, you know, they. And this is not. We're just using the example of a sales meeting. Right. The sales conversation. But I mean, as a leader, speaking to. Speaking to your teammates, understand, you know, getting conflict happens. Right. There's inevitably, there's, you know, there's a stoppage in the workflow. You know, something is creating an issue that we need to solve. We need to do it. How do we do we step In, I mean, like you were saying, is there, there's an innate need as a leader, particularly from a leadership perspective, to dominate that conversation. Right. I'm a problem solver. I get things taken care of. But how are we actually going to get it, to get it. How are we actually going to get it resolved? And I think so much of it does come back to. It's the way you position high quality questions. Right?

Yeah, so, so that was that first component, like what people communicate facts or emotions and, and that we need to communicate back to them on their level. It's. If we're having a conversation with somebody, we have to own our part of it, right? We have to own our part. Our part of that conversation. And so it's kind of like, it's kind of like if you're a parent and you've got kids, you got to own, own the maturity. You don't get to respond to your kids the way they respond to you. Right? You got to own that. So in that conversation we can own it. We don't expect somebody else to switch over to talking about facts just because we are. We're going to take the responsibility to come to where they are. That's a, it's good leadership, it's good communication. And I tell you what, the thing about questions are funny is that like, you know, you could have a conversation with somebody where you never, you didn't say more than four words and all you did was ask questions about them. They'll walk away from that, walk away from that conversation just thinking, you're awesome. Like, man, John is just, John is the coolest guy. I had so much fun talking to him and John didn't say anything. Like you talked the whole time. And people will be like, I had so much fun talking to John and all I did was talk about myself, right? And we are our own favorite subject, right? Like there's no way around that. And so talking to, talking about facts and emotion is kind of that, that what we communicate. So I mentioned the how we communicate a little bit earlier. So we talked about the what we communicate. We're going to talk a little bit about the how we communicate. And we're going to do that in just a second because we're going to let our sponsors communicate some information to you about who they are and what they do. And so we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who make contractor radio possible. So please take a second to listen to what they have to say and appreciate that from them. You're not using Helltrace. It's definitely worth the money.

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Investment and I have no doubt that you will too. Welcome back to this episode of Contractor Radio. I am your host Nathan Thibodeau with my co host over here, John Townsend. As we talk a little bit about communication. So we're having a real fun conversation about that. I really enjoy this topic. I know John does too. And so I left off a little bit teasing that we're going to talk about the how. So as I was trying to increase and enhance my communication skills, I wanted to figure out what are the things I should be paying attention to. And the first one was what people communicate, factual facts or emotions. And so this, how people communicate is kind of the next thing. And so once again, We've got these two ends of the spectrum. People are rarely 100%, one or the other, very rare. And so on the one end of the spectrum we have the how people communicate is direct. So how do you communicate? Do you communicate in a direct way? And then if you're probably thinking ahead, the other end of the spectrum is indirect communication. So the two ends of the spectrum are direct communication and indirect communication. And so let's talk a little, let's define those and tease those out just a little bit. Direct communication are people who oftentimes they don't fluff the conversation, they don't fluff what they're saying. Oftentimes they don't put a whole lot of detail in it. They don't, they don't dance around a situation or anything like they just go right to the heart of the matter. They go straight to the thing because they don't. Oftentimes direct communicators don't want to waste any time or maybe they don't even think about some of those other factors. They're just like point A to point B, straight as possible. We call those folks straight shooters. Right? There's very little guesswork in what they're thinking or what they're what, the determinations or the conclusions that they came to. Because they just tell you they're not trying to. They just, boom, here we are.

Right?

And some of the, some of the benefits to that is brevity. Like, it's quick. They don't, they don't want to sit there and have a long conversation if they feel like they can get to the point faster. And that can be, that can be good, you know, getting, Getting to the point quick. There's not a lot of guesswork. Oftentimes direct communicators, if it's in their head, it's coming out of their mouth. And so for good or for bad, you know what they're thinking, and you don't have to guess or be in the dark with that. Now, some of the downsides, direct communicators sometimes aren't very fun conversationalists. They're just like, hey, how are you doing? I'm great. Okay. How was your day? It was wonderful. See you later.

Yeah. I think about text message conversations between my wife and I. Oh, yeah, honey, I'm so excited about, you know, this and this and, you know, it's. You're going to be home at this time, right? And, yeah, it's going to be a great evening. And she says, yeah.

Just gives you the.

Okay, what, we're not done here.

So. Yeah, that's. That's direct communication. Right. And some of the downsides of direct communication is sometimes there's more detail needed. Like, if I just communicate to somebody what I'm thinking or how I feel, they might want to know a little more. Like, well, well, okay, you went point A to point B, but I'm not entirely sure all of the factors that caused you to get to point B. They might want to know a little bit more, and they might want. They might need more information, especially if they're trying to get to the same place I am. They're like, okay, Nathan, like, you started here, you ended here, and you're telling me this is the thing, and I want to get there with you, but why, Where. Where did that come from? Why are, why are you thinking that? Why was that your determination? Right. So sometimes direct communication doesn't give enough information. Sometimes it can also be like, it can. It can be kind of cold, or sometimes it can come across as harsh because it's just boom, boom, that's it. Right? And human beings, like, we like stories, we like information. Like, especially if we're really connecting with somebody, we want to know more. And so sometimes it can come across as harsh and cold, and sometimes there's not Enough information. When you're a direct communicator, what are your thoughts on direct communication?

Yeah, and I kind of a little teaser there with the text messaging. I think that it's really important.

Yeah.

There's so many. And, you know, I come from a pro sports background, and vast majority of our communication was very direct, right?

Oh, sure.

You know, it was the nature of the game and needed to be quick and needed to be direct, and we didn't really have time, you know, to beat around the bush, so to speak, but it was also face to face. Okay. So I think that. I think that, you know, the danger that we have now as a direct communicator is to. Is to put that in the form, you know, we just have to be cognizant of, like, when we text responses to things. All right? That is where oftentimes, you know, the miscommunication can lie. There can be room for. There's, you know, room for doubt as to what is actually being communicated. Right. But when we. So I think that it's. I think that as a direct communicator, you need to prioritize face to face communication. All right? And that's gonna. Because your tonality, your, you know, your, Your physical, I mean, body adjustments, body language, that will help communicate a lot more. You know, it'll help the delivery of your message.

That is such a man. That's such a great point. Because I was thinking about. I was thinking as you were talking, I was like, yeah, I was like, that's actually a really great point that if you're a direct communicator, and I've had that. I've had text message conversations with direct communicators. And I, I've. I've at times been like, are you mad? Are you upset? Like, did I do something wrong? Like, no. Like, oh, okay, so they're just being like point blank, like, and they're not upset. But. But that text message or that direct message or that email, there's no.

There.

There's no way to sense, you know, somebody's intention with the way they communicate. I know. I've definitely been in like, a text message fight because text messages don't convey tonality. It's like I said something I thought was funny or a joke, and this person was like, how dare you, you jerk. It's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. Now I'm in a fight. All because I was dumb and decided to make a statement over text that probably should have been done face to face. That's a really great point. A hundred percent.

Yeah, we've, I mean, and it's something that we leverage so much now is just, you know, our ability to quickly communicate via social media, via text message. You know what, this is kind of another, another free tip is that, you know, there's tools out there like Voxer, you know, that where voice messaging can be done quickly.

Marco Polo.

Yeah, Marco Polo. Exactly. You know that I think that are really wonderful to spread across your teams because, yeah, you can do it very quickly. You don't have to, you know, if we, if we're not able to get face to face or on a call. But it can also, you know, you can leverage a little bit of your tonality.

And that is a great suggestion. Like if you, if you tend to be a direct communicator and you find, and you find that people are. People feel unsure about your communication and your tonality, and you people, if you text people and you get a lot of people that are like, are you mad? Are you okay? If that happens to you a lot? That's a great. You might start thinking about using a video messaging type thing where you can just record like, hey, I just want to say this thing and this thing and this thing. Just make sure you check on that, whatever. And then boom, then you send that and then they get to see your face, they get to hear your voice. What a great suggestion, John. I love that.

Thanks, Nathan. And you used my name. Yeah.

So the other. So, okay, so that's like the direct communicators and how people communicate. Now, the other end of the spectrum are the indirect communicators. Indirect communicators, they, they weave their way through a conversation and they don't necessarily just go point A to point B. They want to bring you along. They want to give you information. They feel that there's more information needed to. In order for you to arrive at the same place that they are or in communicating with you. So they might, they may not want to tell you exactly what you should be thinking. They want you to come to that determination on your own by giving you the information that you need. I mean, indirect communicators, they oftentimes are there. They're really good conversationalists because they'll, they'll talk with you. They'll keep a conversation going. Right. And the more that they talk oftentimes, the more the person who they're communicating with has an opportunity to comment on something they said. So if I just make a quick point blank statement as a direct communicator, there's no room for a back and forth. But if I'm an indirect communicator and I'm talking about this thing or that thing, and I'm kind of making my way through our conversation, the other person's like, oh, so, you know, you said this, and I wanted to make a comment about that or respond to it. And so indirect communicators can be good conversation. They're great storytellers oftentimes because they're, they're making their way like, Jack and Jill got married and lived happily ever after. The end, nobody. Like, that's not a fun story, right? So we want to know, oh, how did things happen? What, where did this thing lead? And the strife and the struggle and then the overcoming and all the crescendo of the story, that's all indirect communication. And along that path, like, you're feeling emotions and you're coming to determinations and you like this character, you don't like that character. And so, like indirect communicators, that's kind of how they. They do things. Now, I think I actually, personally, I think I tend to fall into a little more of the indirect communicator style. That's kind of how I am. There's some downsides to indirect communication. One of those things is sometimes it can just take too long. People like, hey, okay, come on, get to the point. Like, I don't have all day here. And you talk to that friend of yours and they just. Their stories go on and on and on, and they don't ever really seem to have much of a point. So the indirect communicators can kind of ramble on a little bit, and sometimes they include information that isn't necessarily pertinent. Right. Especially in a business environment, we're like, okay, we got things to do here. So what's going on? And if you're somebody who's an indirect communicator, or if you find that. If you find that people tend to get a little agitated or they interrupt you as you're talking, it may be that you're an indirect communicator. And people, they want you to get to the point and speed it up a little bit. So that's a negative component. One of the other negative components, and this is one I've become a little more aware of as I've gotten older, is I think indirect communicators can be prone to manipulation. And it's because they. Because they're leading you down a path and they want you to get to a certain point on that path or arrive at a decision or an emotion or an opinion, they will. Sometimes they will steer and direct the facts. Sometimes they'll twist things just a little bit. You know, they're not point blank about it and they're trying to get you to come somewhere with them. And oftentimes indirect communicators can. Can fall into the trap of manipulating people.

Yeah, that's a delicate. I also think, yeah, we have this. I mean, we have this conversation in sales circles, right. And I think that. And what's ultimately the question that you have to answer? Right, so what's. What's my motivation?

Right.

What's my motivation behind the conversation I'm having? Is it. Do I believe this is in the best interest of what affects. I believe this. This conversation is serving. The solution is serving of the person who I'm speaking with. But you're absolutely right, man. We are. You know, numbers don't lie. Right. But they do it. But they do. They don't do a great job of telling stories. And so somebody could tell a really great story to make the numbers tell that.

And that happens all the time. Right. Because a lot of people are like, I'm only about the facts and the figures and the numbers. And I'm like, yeah, well, have you ever heard of a little called Enron? Like, they had a lot of numbers and a lot of facts and figures, and they did a pretty good job at making those numbers tell a story. But that story wasn't real.

Right? Yeah. Something else that, you know, just came to me, Nathan, is that I think that sometimes indirect communicators can tend to be passive aggressive. And I think that that is not. I mean, it can be funny. Passive aggression can certainly be funny. And you know, but I think that from. In an organization, you know, we're talking to owners and leaders and in the trades, and I think that that can be a dangerous path to go down, especially. Especially as a leader. So there. While direct communication can oftentimes leave, you know, leave questions unanswered, I think sometimes even, you know, a person can leverage their, their indirect communication to do the same and, and, and leave. Yeah. Leave folks feeling less than. Right.

Oh, that's. That's a great point that you bring up. Like, I'm thinking about that, processing that as you say it, and it's totally right. A direct communicator is gonna be like, I'm upset with you, and here's why. I don't like this. I don't like that. Right. And sometimes you're just like, oh, like, ooh, that just felt like you just fired some darts at me. Right. But an indirect communicator. Passive aggressiveness is not just coming out and saying it.

Right.

And passive aggressiveness, quite frankly, like you said, sometimes it's funny and sometimes it's cute. Like, sometimes it's a cute way to get your point across, especially in a delicate situation. But oftentimes, I would say more often than not, especially if you're dealing with this in your business, passive aggressiveness is toxic. Because passive aggressiveness is sometimes, if somebody's really, really skilled at being passive aggressive, it's hard to put your finger exactly on the thing. Right. Because they're burying that thing in a lot of other things. So that's a really good point. Passive aggressiveness can be so toxic so quickly, and it can be hard to draw out. Like, what exactly? When you talk to somebody's path. I've dealt with that. I had one of my salespeople one time in a company I worked for was highly passive aggressive to everyone else, and she would. And when in dealing with that, I had to spend a lot of time thinking about the interaction and pinpointing exactly where that passive aggressiveness was. Because if you just went to her, she would say something like, well, is anything I said untrue?

Yeah. Yeah.

No, nothing you said was untrue. But the way you said it and how you went about it certainly had a point to it. That was. That was. That was subterranean. That was.

There's an unnecessary anxiety, that it creates more work. Passive aggression just creates more work. I had a sales leader who communicated like that. And, yeah, it was. It was tough. It was just there. You left the conversation saying, okay, what. What was this? What was actually said here? Am I. Am I going to get fired? Yeah. Or am I doing a great job?

100%. Yeah. That passive aggressiveness is so, so tricky.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, I don't. I think that when it comes, you know, there's. There's. There's foundations for communication that must exist. Right. And if.

If.

If we know. Yep.

I mean, like.

Like we said, passive aggression can be cute, and it can be funny and sometimes even useful. But if there. If the foundations for our communication aren't there, meaning, like, hey, we're on the same team. We want the same thing. We recognize what the definition of winning is. Right. First off, if we aren't in agreement on these things, then we probably shouldn't be on the same team. Okay. But those conversations have to happen. On the front end. These are foundations of all communication moving forward. Do we want the same thing for each other and for the company? Do I want you to succeed? And am I, am I here to help you succeed? Are these things being communicated then, you know, then you can filter through some, you know, that will, at least that will be your filter to then, you know, disseminate all the information that you're given. Right. Regardless if it's passive aggressive or not. So I think so much of it does just start with that, you know.

With that foundation having some core agreements in place, you know, with people in your communication. Like, okay, we agree that we're on the same team. We agree that we're driving towards the same purpose, and we agree in what winning looks like. That's. That's great, John. So one of the things too, that, like we talk about, like this, what we communicate facts or emotion, how we communicate direct or indirect? Now you start pairing those things up. So what does it look like when those things pair up? Like, if you had, if you had somebody who was, who communicated emotion and they were a direct communicator, that person's gonna tell you how they feel point blank, point A to point B. Like, you're gonna know how they feel and they're gonna do it very quickly. And they're not gonna mince words. They're gonna be like, I am upset about this, or, I am happy about this. This is great. You know, just, no, no fluffing that up. It's just emotions point blank, very quickly. And sometimes that's positive. Like, it's just good to know, like, how somebody actually feels. Because sometimes we're pretty guarded about that. So if somebody communicates emotionally, but they also communicate directly, that can be helpful. I mean, because I know sometimes some of us aren't particularly emotionally intelligent and it's hard for us to read that in people. And so if you've got a direct communicator and they communicate emotions and they just tell you exactly how they feel, that can be good, right? But obviously that can also be kind of bad, right? Just point and shoot. And somebody's like, oh, right, hit some. So then what if you've got somebody who is a. Say that they're, they're. They communicate facts by default and they're an indirect communicator. You better buckle up, right? Because you're going to get a lot of information. They are going to weave their way through a bunch of data, a bunch of statistics, a bunch of things. They're going to communicate indirectly and you're going to get a lot of information, a ton of it, okay? Similarly, if you've got somebody who is an indirect communicator and they communicate emotions, you better buckle up there, too, right? You're going to. You're in. You're in for hearing a lot of emotion and a lot of feeling and a lot of context and a lot of experience in those situations. Right now you got a factual, direct communicator. It's like just the facts, man.

Boom.

That's it. Like. And they're going to be punctuated and small and only the facts that matter, right? And so understanding those things, being able to draw that out of somebody, like, if I. If I'm aware that the person I'm speaking with is an. Is an indirect communicator and they communicate emotions, then I need to realize, okay, like, I need to be careful not to get caught up in all of these emotions. I need to be aware of where I am at and be good with where I'm at and be ready to listen to what I'm about to get, okay? So now I'm prepared. Okay? Like, just. This person feels this way. It doesn't mean I feel that way. They may not know exactly how I feel, but they're going to communicate a lot of. A lot of emotions and feelings over this conversation. Or if I know that, if I know that somebody's a direct communicator and they communicate either emotions or facts, I need to be ready with some questions. Because if they're a direct communicator, I'm probably going to want me to draw some stuff out of them. Them to get a better context around that. Right? And so, so, John, what are your thoughts like in, in. In how is your own awareness of whether you're factual, emotional, direct or indirect affect your communication with others, do you think?

You know, I'm a. I'm a big believer, you know, there's not one way to do something, right? There's. There's a lot of people can coach and teach you how to do something, but your best shot at being the best you can become is when you take ownership of how you do something. Right? So I think that, you know, we started this off by just by saying that there is a general awareness, right? So being aware as to how you default, what end of the spectrum you default to. All right, step one. All right. But it's now going to allow you to say, just like you. Just like you said, I can now prep. I can prep for this conversation. I can make my own adjustments. All right. Both in preparing for this conversation, but then also, you know, on a whim, like if they are. I mean, what if it's a. What if it's a direct communicator who's all of a sudden today not being so direct, they're being very indirect, right. If we have a better understanding of how we do what we do when we do it really well, then we can then make our own adjustments. And I think that's. That has to be the lesson here is the ability to balance. Balance, right.

The.

All of these communication styles to achieve an objective. Right. And to help our. To. To help. To help somebody, whether it's a colleague or a leader or a. Or a prospect. Yeah. So I think that. I think it does nothing but just allows you to. It puts you in a position, Your own awareness, puts you in a position to make your own adjustments and be able to be able to, you know, cross the. Across the political, you know, aisle, so to speak.

Right.

Be a little bit bipartisan. So I think that, yeah, I think that that's, it's. It's critical step one, isn't it?

I think it is. I mean, if you know that you are a direct communicator, okay, if you know that and let's say you communicate emotion. Emotion, it's good to be aware of that because I might just point blank, boom, hit somebody with how I feel about a thing, and they not. May not respond in the way that we were hoping or thinking. And in our mind, we should go, okay, I probably just. I probably just. Just. I just fired a shot and I might need to. I might need because. Because I tend to be direct and I tend to communicate emotion. I might need to, like, soften that a little bit.

Right.

And so understanding that you do that is important so that you can maybe avoid some of the. The pitfalls in how you communicate with people, especially if you know how that person communicates. You go, okay, now I need to. I need a tailor, Taylor. I need to be careful because I tend to do this and this person doesn't respond well to that. So now I need to. Okay, maybe I need to approach this with a little more facts. Maybe you need to be a little more indirect, bring more information, less information, depending on that person.

It also really helps you communicate to folks how they, how they can most efficiently communicate with you. Yes, right. I mean, I have plenty of times. I am definitely an indirect. Indirect communicator and I. Plenty of times where I've dealt with folks who are Very, very direct. Like, I know going into that, that now that I know how they communicate, right? And they've told me that, like, hey, I just want, I just want some facts. I just want, you know, I just want some hard hitting, like, don't fluff this, give it to me. I'm now positioned to really communicate with, to help them, right? And if they had not, if they had not known that about themselves, right then, then I would never would have been able to help and vice versa, you know, I need, I need some backstory. Tell me why I'm that why guy, right? So it helps folks communicate to me effectively. I guess it's the right brain.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that awareness is, that awareness is huge. And I think that once, once you start to pay attention to it, I think I mentioned the other day about the reticular activator in our brain. That reticular activator is. Once your brain is aware of a thing, it will begin to see it more and more. So I use the, I use an example like we bought my wife, My wife and I bought her a Subaru. She's got a Subaru Outback, right? She loves it, right? I didn't really pay attention to Subarus all that much until now. I, now I see Subaru Outbacks all over the place right now. They were always there. I just wasn't paying attention or my brain wasn't tuned in to seeing that thing. Like if you buy a red car now, you see red cars everywhere. Okay? So what we want to do in this awareness is we want to start to think about that thing. And then the more that we think about it, the more aware of it we are, the more we'll start to see it all over the place. We'll be able to pay attention to that thing. Now excellent communicators are people who have the ability to navigate both ends of these spectrums. So if you, if you're having a conversation with somebody and you, and you enjoy talking with this person, right? And you guys click in how in your understanding of each other, there's a good chance that that person is an excellent communicator. Especially if you can't pin it down. If you're trying to pin down whether or not this person tends to communicate motion, do they tend to communicate facts? Are they indirect? Are they direct? I can't, can't get my feeling on where this person just. It's probably because that person's very good at navigating that full spectrum spectrum and they don't. And they're very good at making their way. That's a good communicator because they can, they can get to where people are and they can do it without necessarily overloading in one side or the other. So that's a person I'd pay attention to. If I'm like, I can't figure out where they lie on this spectrum, I'd pay attention to them because they're probably an excellent communicator.

Anybody, I want to ask you, Nathan, anybody in your career, you know, in your life that you can pick out as being like probably the best communicator that you've worked with or for and.

And why the best communicator?

I think it's important for the listeners to know, like what, you know, what it fleshes out as.

There was a guy, I worked at a, I worked at a software company. I've worked at three software companies in my career. So they're one of those companies that I worked at. There was a guy there, his name was Chuck, actually not Chuck Toki, but his name was Chuck. And he played the role of the president in the company. But his background, his background, I think as far as schooling goes, he was a teacher.

Okay.

Then he moved from being a teacher into sales. And then he moved up from sales into being the president of this company. And as the president of this company, he communicated and helped to drive the vision as an integrator inside this company. And he, he had a sales background, he also had a teaching background and he was an excellent salesperson. One of the best I've ever met in my life. But then as president, he also had as his job to deal with the software developers and the support department and the sales department. Right. And the marketing department. And so you can tend to see trends in how people communicate. Like if you're in, if you're in the software development world, these guys are probably very much engineering type minded. They think about facts, they think about data, they think about that kind of thing. He could excellently deal and communicate with those people. And they loved him for the most part.

Right?

They really. And he communicated well. Then he would deal with the salespeople. Excellent in dealing with salespeople who tend to be, who tend to do a real good job of dealing in emotion.

Right.

Because almost all, pretty much all sales are emotional decisions. And so he could deal with salespeople very well. And in his. I very rarely found myself after talking with him, not feeling like we didn't connect and I didn't understand what he was saying. Probably one of the best communicators I've ever had in my history. And his position bore that out. What about you?

Yeah. Guy named Scorpio.

Scorpio.

If you're listening, Scorpio, shout out. Scorpio is a sales manager. He's actually. Those of you that can see my. Have ever seen my screen, he's the lion on the wall. But Scorpio, Scorpio, you know, he came from very humble beginnings, right? He's a. And that humility was transferred in every single conversation he had. So there was this unique level. And even as. Even as a leader, we call him boss man. He's a boss. He makes decisions. And he also navigated different areas. You know, he had to speak with our.

With the.

With regional directors, right? He had to speak with. It was in healthcare. So he had to speak with, you know, MSOs, just doctor. You know, doctor.

He had to get.

He had to speak all across the spectrum when it came to numbers, but then also handling. Handling sales teams, handling individuals and his ability. Here's the best way I can wrap it up. Folks would move on. They would move up from their sales roles with Scorpio, and they would all cry, including me. They would cry.