Contractor Success Series: Growing Pains with Josh Swisher

Hey, everybody, it is Jim Johnson here, your host on Contractor Radio. The show designed for contractors so that they can get control of their business, so they can grow their business and achieve some personal and financial freedom that they wanted when they started their business. Our goal here is to help people be better so they can have better businesses and lead better lives. And I'm super pumped today because I have a guest with me that I've gotten to know here for the last few years. It means a lot to me. He is one of the hardest working guys that I've met. He has an amazing company and he's going to tell you more about that here this morning. But we're working on this series over the summertime of what contractors go through, the life of a contractor. And I want this guy to share a story because I think it's so valuable to you. I think it's going to bring you some insight into starting up your business. Business, what growth may look like in your business, some of the obstacles and challenges you may face in your business. This is going to be one of those shows you don't want to miss. So without further ado, let's go ahead and bring in our guest. He is very analytical about what he does. He's a super smart guy. He really pays attention to the details that allow him to facilitate a situation that benefits his employees just as much as it benefits him. Hey, Josh. Welcome to the show. Josh Srisher from North Face Construction. How are you today?

I'm doing great, Jim. I appreciate you having me on.

Yeah, I will. It's an honor to have you on, man. It really is. I've been working to put together what I call the best of the best, really. It's guys that have worked hard over the years to build something they can be proud of. And we've gotten to be a little part of your journey. But you've done so much just on your own and, and being the guy that you are. Tell us a little bit about North Face and yourself and how you got to where you are.

Okay, so I'll do the brief synopsis. I've told the story a few times and it gets a little entertaining, but I started roofing when I was 15 years old, 16 years ago. So that tells you my age. I started working for my neighbor before I had a driver's license. So I would flip him shingles, drag tarps, you know, everything. You know, at that time, we were coming in, we were in the recession and it was really starting to hit. So by the time I graduated high school in 2009, his business wasn't really doing well. So my initial plan had been to manage his business and kind of grow up and help him build it. But I ended up going to college instead because there wasn't any work. And at the time I didn't really know much else to make money. So I would do Craigslist ads for roof repairs and go patch a shingle for 50 bucks and stuff while I was going to school. So In January, on January 10, 2010, I took an intro to business class and I learned when the LLC was. And that was the day I started North Face Construction.

So we started like to put your own llc?

No, no. I just learned what an LLC was and I'm like, if I. If this is what I need, I've been making cash all these years. I had no proof of income and I wanted to buy a truck to impress girls. You know, that's what you do when you're 18. So that was my whole reason. But I, you know, I'd start the llc and then I was doing side gigs and still just like on the side, snow plowing, snow blowing of driveways with my parents Snowblower and their RAV4 pulling the trailer around and just kind of. It wasn't really serious. But then in 2013, I got my builder's license while I was still attending college for my business degree in St. Cloud. And I contracted one job and then there's another one, another one, and referrals, and everyone knew I was doing roofing. All my friends, social media, I was always posting about it. So it just kind of grew from there. And then the storm of 2017 hit. If you're in Minnesota Perts, and you know, the infamous storm, and then it was just like, hold on, hold on. And like, here we go. And that's when things really turned into a business from that point forward.

So that's super interesting. I think a lot of people probably start the way you did, not necessarily going to college and earning side money, although I think that happens quite a bit too. But it's like I have this skill set and I do some side jobs and then they become full jobs and then it becomes another full job because I got a referral and I did good work. And I think a lot of businesses kind of have that type of scaling process to them where they build for referrals, good work, customer experience, and things like that. They may or may not be the low price leader because they don't have a lot of overhead and those type of Things. Were you any of that?

Oh, I had no overhead, so I lived it. I lived. I was living with my parents. You know, I didn't have a car payment, I didn't have a phone payment. My only bill to be a licensed contractor was my yearly insurance premium and keeping the license paid every other year.

A few deals.

Oh, I could. I. Yeah, I. I didn't know what I was doing. All I knew is how much I wanted to make per square as a subcontractor when I was installing, which at the time I was getting paid like 50 a square. And then I added on maybe another 50 square. So I was getting 100 square on top of my cost. So I was.

You were a subcontractor to somebody else, the actual contractor?

Yeah.

So like contracting to the homeowner and residential clients, I was subbing for other.

Roofers like in my friends. So like my boss and his brother both own roofing companies. So when I started my llc, I, you know, would funnel my subcontract work. I would be on it, I was part of a crew and I would count my bundles every day and I had my little helper that I paid cash.

And just how valuable was that to you to know it from that side, like to you to actually be a subcontractor? How did that help you?

Pivotal, because I know how to do everything hands on and I knew how to lay down lots of squares fast and make money doing it. And I kind of knew what, I just kind of knew the ground up from the business and the efficiencies. I knew the material I needed. I knew like crews, I knew guys that could go and do the work. So we're just kind of boots on the ground to get things done.

I think that's, that's an invaluable thing to have. Most of us that start a business doing contracting or whatever may not have that actual hands on experience. The guys that I talk to that have more of that can talk in a different way to the homeowner than somebody just becoming a salesperson or a business owner. Did you find that to be valuable when you're talking to homeowners?

Yeah, because my first few sales, I'd say, you know, I'm the guy, I'm a young man, I'm starting my business, I'm learning, I don't want, I really appreciate you giving me the chance, but I'll be the guy out here working, me and my helper. And you know, I can promise you that you're going to get a good job. So it was just really endearing. You know, the owner always sells, really sells at a high closing rate. But then it also helps when you say, I'm actually going to be the personnel here. Every day I'm going to come up, I'm going to be here at 7am and I'm going to stay until it's dark or after and get the job done when.

Okay, so I got a couple of questions because you said something early on too, that you were posting this stuff on Facebook. You're like, hey, you're posting your jobs and the work you were doing, how did that help?

People just knew it was just branding. I look back like it was just branding. Like, Josh is a roofer.

Yeah, Josh the roof guy.

Well, yeah, well, they call me my friends be like, hey, my dad is missing a shingle on his roof. Can you help us? I'm like, yeah, I'll come over. No, couple hundred bucks. Yeah, I'll help you out. And then this, it's just compound. So like my network knew what I did. You know, a lot of people don't know what you do, like, talk about it.

It's interesting to people all the time. Like, I get asked for, like to be a friend on Facebook, right? Like, do a friend request with me. And I'm pretty diligent about who I let into my world. First things first, I'm always going to look negative or positive. Positive person. Yeah, I'll keep looking. If you're negative, you're out immediately. And then I go to look. What do they do? Right? Like, I don't know. Do you do this whenever people friend request you? Like, do you look at, like, what do they do?

I do a brief overview because especially in our industry, most of the time they're trying to sell you something. If I see a certain friend group. So most of the time I'll just let those sit in the queue.

Yeah, no wonder I have such a hard time getting people go, yeah, I'll be your friend. No, I'm just kidding.

I just don't. I just DMing and trying to sell me on stuff I don't need.

But the. But I'll go, okay, so they're positive. They don't seem nefarious or anything. I'll go ahead and let them. And so I'll hit the friend accept button and I'll immediately get like a message, a dm. Hey, I've been following you, watching your stuff. I'm a roofer and I do. I'm like, how does anybody know you're A roofer. It's not anywhere on. You can tell? Yeah, I couldn't see it on any of their pictures. There was no like name of their company or anything. Like that's like step one that should be on everything and anything that you do because that network is super valuable to you and you start building your brand from day one. What now has it always been North Face?

Actually when I first filed LLC, it was not. And I changed it like nine months later. Yeah, it was literally J.C. swisher LLC. I didn't care about the name.

And what made you do the name change? Why, why that?

I just wanted. I, I thought about it. I'm like, well, I don't really want my name on the business necessarily not. I just felt like I would like to build a brand outside of just me that people can subscribe to a little bit. I don't know. It wasn't much thought going through my head. When I was 18 year old, 18.

Years old, I just did it trucking girls. I own a real company that doesn't have my name on it. It's super funny. So those first few years you're 18 years old, you decide, hey, I'm going to be North Face. You were subcontracting other people. When did it switch to like being your own thing?

In 2013 when I got my license and I got hired for one job and for an insurance claim. And then that was just one. That was the only one I did that year. And then the next year was like three more and then it was a few more and it's just like kind of organically grew into that. And then I knew I had it. I had it kind of figured out by the time 2017 came around that that's what I was doing. I didn't always. At one point I wanted to be a customer modeler. I wanted to do like additions and like grandiose things. And I did a quarter million dollar edition and I made 20 grand. And between like the lead to like finish, it took like a year and a half and I was like, I'm never doing that again because I didn't have you.

Like, why, why did you go and stick with.

Yeah, right. Well, I, I just, I learned what I didn't want to do. I didn't want to be inside people's houses. It changes the whole dynamic of contracting when you're interrupting their day to day life with their kitchen remodel and stuff like that. Because when I did that addition, it was kitchen everything, master everything. So it wasn't it was a good experience and great people. It went well, but I didn't make any money and I put hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours into it.

So yeah, that was, I was a bit of a wake up call, I would imagine. So then you go, I'm a roofer. Right. Is that, is that what you decide to be or is it something more than that?

Well, it's roofing, siding, windows and gutters. So exterior a home, we keep the water out of the home above grade. Ah.

So exterior envelope approach.

Yes.

Don't have to be in the house or anything like that. So you're in one of those areas of the country where they get storms and in 2017 you guys got one heck of a hailstorm. And so what were you doing in revenue like 2016 and then how did that change for 2017?

That's a great question. So I'll give you a little backstory. So in 2010 I actually still have my first pay on paper income statement in a frame in my office. And I made $6,000 in profit my first year in business.

And pay yourself though, like, you didn't live off of 6,000 bucks, did you?

Pretty much. I lived at my parents house.

Oh yeah, you were living at your parents house?

Yeah, I lived in my parents house. I didn't have to buy food, I didn't have any bills. And then there was probably some CA on the side that wasn't deposited in the bank account. But so that was that year I did 18,000 revenue. The next year I did 24 the next year from there it was like 60 something. The next year from there it was 120. And then it was, I can move.

Out of my parents house now.

Well, that's what happened is I was going to College at St. Claus State for my entrepreneurship degree. And when I went to graduate, I looked at the last year and I just qualified for a home with my prospective wife that we were going to get married and she was pretty much a minimum wage college poor graduate. I made 30 grand while I was in school, part time. And we bought a house together, barely bought a house together, barely. And I just remember graduating just like, well, if I made, if I'd made this money part time while working my butt off, I can either go to Target corporation or something UnitedHealth and I can be a business analyst for a comfortable salary and benefits. But then I'm not really in control. And I just wanted to kind of take that leap because what's the worst gonna happen? What's the worst gonna Happen. It's all paper and numbers, you know, and you're gonna. Not gonna lose your family. So I kind of took that leap of faith at that time to continue things. So then we did 240,000 revenue, and then 2016, I did 600,000 in revenue, and that was when I did that addition. That's when my wife quit her job and she joined the company full time. And then she went back to school for her master's in business during that time. And then in 2017, we hit 1.1 million when the storm hit, and then after that. And I can keep going if you want, but.

Such a. It's a steady pace of growth. It's not like. Because a lot of guys would make this mistake, this storm happens. I bet you had opportunity way more than that if you wanted to.

What if I knew how to do it?

Yeah, like, but you didn't have the people, you didn't have the resources, and so you kept it at a manageable number and pretty controlled growth. Has that been your MO for the whole time?

Control. I call it controlled chaos.

Listening. For those of you on the podcast.

It's controlled chaos. It's controlled chaos. I'd say I have big goals and it gets challenging sometimes for. It's overwhelming sometimes at the pace I try to push things.

Yeah. And everybody's goals are, like, different, too. For somebody, for one person, it might be, okay, I'm going to go from 600,000 to 1.1 million. And that's like this big, huge push. And you got this other guy. It's like, at 500,000, we're going to do 5 million. Right. So, like, absolute, utter chaos at that point. What allowed you to go from 600,000 to 1.1 and not be too crazy or worry?

It was. So I was. Well, first off, I found a sales guy and I don't know, I don't remember. It was like on one of these forums in 2017, Cody. Cody Bates, if he's listening, he's an amazing person. He, He. He just started his roofing company with some partners down in Florida this year, and they're killing it. Amazing. But he, he was working in Florida, but he was a Wisconsin guy. And he DM'd me and said, hey, I saw that you have a storm up there. And he's like, I'll come and work. It's the off season in Florida. And I'm like, I need help. Come up here. So he taught me how to, like, supplement. I didn't know what that was, you know, he taught me that. And then I hired my first full time employee that fall. Derek who? You know, he was my first real employee on the payroll.

What did he do?

Production. I handed off production because I knew I could keep selling, I could trade, I could train him to do the production.

Those are pretty smart moves. First off, you get kind of lucky, right? Like a sales guy that knows what he's doing, gets a hold of you. And then your first real hire, though, is a production. You didn't hire another salesperson. Why'd you hire a production manager instead of a salesperson?

I just knew how much time I was spending running the jobs. I mean, I remember one day I had 10 roofs going in one day and I was managing them all myself. But when they're within like 4 square miles in Blaine, that's not that hard. But I just knew I need to hand it off that stuff because it was taking up so much time. I was missing out on opportunities to sell because I couldn't get to places fast enough for people to. Because there's such a lack of people. Everyone needed the work done. So it's just the speed to get it done was the key to making the money.

I find it interesting that you gravitated towards the sales side of it. Sounds like you had some skill at that versus the production side of it. Because it's kind of, you know, you can go one way or the other. One guy can say, hey, I'm going to run production and hire a bunch of sales guys. Or the other way around say, hey, if I hire a production guy, I can go sell more. Especially with your background, like knowing how to install and do the work and all those type of things. Why, why that particular choice?

I don't really know off the cuff necessarily. Besides, I always like sales and I like dealing with people and driving the revenue a little bit. And I knew he could fulfill on the promises. So I just. I wanted to grow. I wanted to grow and I wanted to hand off things that would stop the growth in regards to. In my mindset at that time. You know, I wanted to drive revenue and push it forward because then I hired my first salesperson that following spring. I hired Derek. October of 2017. I hired my first salesperson in March of 2018.

I really hate interrupting these videos, but I've got some important information for you. If you haven't tried out Atlas shingles, you should, because they put you first as a contractor. They want to give you a competitive advantage out in the field so that you can win more sales and be more profitable. Check out Atlas in your local area, find your local rep, get hooked up with them today and start making more money tomorrow. So you actually said this earlier. You said that you started selling and that's how the business started growing. It was you selling. So I think that might have had something to do with it where you said the owner has. There's nobody that's more qualified to sell your business than the owner. You said something along those lines. And so I want to call attention to that for the listeners. Like that's reality. That's the perfect point really. Probably why you hired the production guy. Knowing that hiring sales guys coin flip if it drives revenue or not. But if you're selling, you know, you have no doubt in your mind that you're going to be able to drive the revenue that you need. How did it feel to be responsible for these? Now you got three people, you got this kind of mercenary guy, you've got a production manager and then you have a salesperson. Now you got a little response. How'd that feel?

Well, Cody, it was all a short term thing anyway. So that fall he went right back down to Florida and I took things back over. So it's just Derek and I. And then I had a salesperson and it's really nervous. I remember a good friend of mine who has a landscaping company, he told me it's like the first hire is the hardest. Everyone after that is easy from a cash flow on your mindset standpoint. Right. The responsibility definitely changes when you know, like especially Derek. Our wives went to clean college together, they ran cross country together. And like these are people that are really close to us that now they're taking a leap of faith. He actually lived in Wisconsin and would drive to Minneapolis and work Monday through Friday, stay at his sister in law's house on the couch and then drive home three hours to Wisconsin on the weekends to see his wife.

So listeners are going to hate this. Where in Wisconsin did he live?

I don't remember. Okay.

No.

Tomatoma, Wisconsin.

Oh wow, that is a long ways away because I. So funny story. I lived in Wisconsin, halfway between River Falls and Menominee, if you know where Spring Valley is, which is about 26 miles to make it to the border. And then I would drive to Eden Prairie. So that's a good ways on the. What is that? That's the southwest side of the cities. So it's about an hour and 15 minute drive one way. I would do that every day. In and then out.

Yeah, he ended up doing that he moved to Menominee, then like a year later, and then ended up doing that drive every day to and fro.

That's. That's pretty wild, pretty committed of him. But. So you. You now have these responsibilities. What did that do to your mentality as the owner?

I wanted to take care of them. And that's one thing that I, like, started understanding by a lot of, like, the industry is a lot of people are. 1090 were, at least at that time. There's a transition now, but a lot of people, 1099 independent. And they. There wasn't really a cultural kind of integration and, like, formed culture. So I kind of wanted to, like, have. I just wanted to care for them and try to get them benefits and, like, so I could actually care for these people. I really cared about, you know, in a way that, like, another company out there would do, like Medtronic or something like that. Like, I wanted to get them benefits. I wanted to get them, like, retirement options, all those things. I wanted to provide revenue so that I wouldn't have to tell them one day that it's over.

You know, that's pretty awesome. This. The idea that you care enough. The. The picture you have in your mind. A lot of guys don't know who Medtronic is, but it's one of the biggest medical device manufacturers in the world. And you're picturing yourself as that. Right. Like, I want to. Want to picture myself as a business like that so I can provide for the people that work for me. So has it always been employees from that perspective?

Yes. Yes. We've never. I've briefly had someone start as a 1099 for like, four weeks, and then they switched to W2. So everyone. And that's the thing is, like, I, like, I joined the UASRC at that time, which is now dissolved, but the United association of Storm Restoration Contractors, and there's a number of founding members in the Twin Cities of that. And I ended up meeting Jacob Sachs and he introduced me to a number of people. And I was this close to going to the 1099. Whole model and profit split and all that jazz. And the number of people and mentors in that group were like, don't do it. You'll have to switch over later and start. Start with the W2. So we've always been W2 employees on sales and everything.

Fun, fun fact about UASRC.

Yeah.

Do you know who the founding members were?

I know who the founding members are.

Yeah. Okay. That all happened in a hotel room at an IRA in Orlando. We all started talking about that. There's five of us sitting there, and that's how it all started. It's kind of unfortunate that it's dissolved at this point. I think it had a really good idea behind it. I hope at some point there is something like that again in the future where there's a resource place for storm restoration contractors to. To do it. Right. That's pretty cool. The Catalyst group kind of feels a bit of that. So 2017 happens. We grow. We start to hire some people. Got a production manager, We've got a salesperson in 2018. What happened in 2018?

We went from 1.1 in 2017. We did 2.5 in 2018. So we doubled.

That's some pretty serious growth.

Yeah.

What. What were the. What were the big challenges there?

Oh, gosh, I don't know. It solved trauma. Trying to, like, resurrect trauma. No, it was. It was a wonderful time. The challenges there were, like, standardization of, like, results and, like, the approach. We were very, like, first salesperson. I didn't have a sales process. I didn't have anything. It was just us being endearing and being us. You know what I mean? There's no processes, really. And it's just like every little challenge you ran into, like, well, okay, we should do it this way and maybe make a checklist here or this or that or next. You know, you have, like, these little tools and resources that you're using to kind of facilitate getting it to the next volume level.

Yeah, that's. That's a key point because somewhere around that million to 2 million mark, those decisions have to start being made. Like, up until then, we can kind of wing it a little bit, shoot from the. Shoot from the hip. And it's going to vary depending upon the type of trade that you do. So roofing might be around that million to 2 million, where something that's a smaller ticket item might be between 500,000 and a million that we're starting to get people in place. We want those people to all do it the same way. We want to start making this thing repeatable. What were your first indications of that?

I just knew that at times things were like how I wanted things done, like how I did it. I wanted that done every time. I wanted the customer to have the exact same experience every single time, no matter who they dealt with in the company. So I just knew. I knew I wanted that, and I didn't really know how to do it. And that was kind of the tipping point on that.

I think that's a very good way of putting it. So 2018 goes well, sounds like. So now we're rolling into 2019. Storm stuff. Still going strong. Like you got more storms to work and all that good stuff.

If I remember correctly, there's a few. There's leftover stuff a little bit. So 2018, yeah, we did. That was 2.5. And then 2019, we did 3. 3 million.

So what were you doing marketing wise? Like, were you knocking doors like everybody else or were you doing something different?

Less than probably 2% of our revenue in our whole lifetime has been knocking doors.

Ah. So what do we do? How do we do that? Because I think that's kind of the MO for storm restoration. Right?

Like go knock a bunch other ways to get leads. So kind of what happened is the referral base. So from then till now, we still. I can look in our database and 30% of our revenue in our whole lifetime has been from referral. Referrals. So doing good job.

That's well done.

Yeah. And, but also I just always had a knack for marketing and I had some friends. I had a friend, she was the social media manager at an agency downtown and she knew she had a guy. I needed a website and I was in college at this time and she, I knew I need a website. And I was like, Morgan, you're all, you know all this stuff. Do you know anyone who can build me a website? And she's like, well, I do have a guy, he could do it on the side. His name is Tim. And I'm like, oh, okay. So I got to meet Tim Brown and he was working full time.

This was Tim Brown before. He's Tim Brown.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he. So I met Tim and he presented me with his website, which was like three, four times the price of someone else. And he sold me on the value of like, what could happen. And we've been working together quite well ever since. So, like that really planted the seed because I always knew I wanted to have like a reoccurring, sustainable business on like my revenue. And I just kind of knew from SEO with some friends who had like SEO companies and stuff like that, that that was a very important thing to be planting the seed now because everyone I talked to said the roofing industry, they're like, it's such a low hanging fruit. We don't know why all you roofers don't invest in. This is so stupid. None of you like. So I was like, all right, I'll do it. So I've been working With Tim. Oh gosh, eight, nine years now with SEO. So that planted the seed. So like we were just having organic and it just kept growing. And I was blogging too. In my free time I would write like terrible blogs and just to get well like. Yeah. And then it just kind of, that was kind of the baseline and we didn't actually start spending money on Google until 2020, so.

Wow. So from 2013 till 2020, so seven years, eight years. You didn't spend eight local services.

We did in 2019. The GLS. We were like one of the first people on that in the cities. But yeah, I didn't do any google adwords until 2000.

I heard this thing that SEO is dead. I actually saw an ad, an ad on Facebook said SEO is dead. I went, okay, it's on Facebook. So that's thing number one is like okay, they're about Facebook. But do you still see results from SEO? Is it getting better? Is it getting worse?

Staying the same, Continually getting better. Because we've, we're so far invested into this for years and years and years. Not financially and just like time and effort put behind it the financials is a huge roi because once it's there, it's there. It's just compounding. And as long as you're adjusting it to Google's algorithm and you're continually feeding, making yourself valuable, it's gonna, you're gonna do well. And we get tons of website submissions like daily. So it's not, I mean there's different like feeding methods there now with other diversified marketing efforts. But the website really is the hub of things online that you need. It's almost like a pay to play. I could see why someone would say that line, the SEO is dead. Just because it is, it's a necessity. You need to have that, you need to have a good website, otherwise you're not even in the game.

Yeah. And if somebody was starting today, would you give them that advice like hey, get the website going and do that now?

Yes and no. I think that it's diversified effort. I think that depending on the person, there's way you can make your money work for you real quick if you put it in other methods. So I think it diversified well. It's just like Google Ads, if you have that figured out or like even just free stuff. Facebook, social media, you don't need to run ads to make money on social media. It's a low hanging fruit. You're free. Your network just even like networking is the way to do it. Like I joined A network. I joined a networking group last year, actually. So I'm like, out there networking and doing that. And that's a huge ROI as well.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I just read a book here recently. I'll give it to you if you haven't read it before. It's called the Power of who. Have you ever read that?

No, I haven't.

So many of us, I think, are about building this really wide network. Like, I want to know everybody and anybody, and that way they all know me type of thing. This book's concept isn't about that. It's about having a tight network and deep relationship with each one. And. And do you find that, like, as you're now building out your network and stuff like that, you've built relationships with certain ones and they seem to be more valuable than just the everybody that we know?

Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. There are people that know your customer before you. So who are those people? And aligning yourself and building deep relationships. So, like, the whole creed of like, B and I, this business networking international, I avoided it like the plague forever. I thought it was like, whatever. But like, the creed is like your visibility equals credibility, which equals revenue, and like, your referral is your reputation. So you gotta think about that as well as who are the people that know your customer before you and what really matters to them? Well, they want their. Their reputation valued by whoever they refer it to. So, like, if I refer someone to Jim Johnson, it's a reflection on me.

Your performance.

Right. So if you keep that in mind, if you keep that in mind on your customers, like, who are those people that really are and who increases your closing rate? So, like, there are certain individuals in the market that if you line yourself and get deep relationships where you are really, like, making them look like rock stars, you're making them look like the champion you're gonna keep getting fed.

That's really good. Like, you said something there that I don't want the listeners or viewers to. To miss. This idea that your network knows your customer before you do. And so they're your little broadcast voices out there. They're the ones that, like, when somebody says the word roof and they go, oh, Josh, that's the first thing that comes to mind. Or North Face. First thing that comes to mind. And I think we. We don't put enough effort into that sometimes, especially in the storm world. I'm going to come back to that a little bit. So 2017, a big storm, but there hasn't really been another big storm until 2022. Right. Like, there's been little storms here and.

There'S little pocket storms like we've had. We had a good one in 2019 in Elk river, our hometown, which that kind of launched us to the next phase. And there's.

But even then. So that's 2019. So 2020, 2021. So that's two years of not a whole lot going on, probably, you know, picking up some work that hadn't been completed, which is what a lot of folks aren't able to do. They're not able to pick up those ones that kind of slip through the cracks. I would think that the reason that you're doing that is because of the heavy investment you made on the digital side. Would you agree with that?

Yeah, I would agree with that for sure. Like, we're getting things that not everyone else is looking at, and we're not afraid of holding on to the customer's hands for a year, year and a half that it takes to get something pushed through. You know, the integration of the marketing. Definitely you're in a place where you're visible to people who are seeking a solution actively. And if you're the one that's right there to be found, your credibility and your closing rate and your ability to close that is just going to go up higher. It's like I said earlier, like, my whole model has always been like, I want a sustainable revenue stream. We've never really targeted Storm, which is interesting. We've always targeted. Our inbound has always been 60 to 70% retail, and then our revenue has always been 60 to 70% insurance. So it flips. And we never really have chased the storms either.

Explain that. So our lead intake is 60 to 70% retail, but our work is 60 to 70% Stormworth. What's that flip? How's that happening?

Well, it happens because of where you're getting that retail work in places that have damage or they don't know they have damage. So, like, we'll go out to. I don't care the size of the job you call us for one little leak. Like, our job is to give the customer an amazing experience. We have something at the company called the customer for life mentality. And that means, like, even if I can't provide a solution to your problem, maybe it's a plumbing leak. I'm going to make you feel so special and happy with the experience that you had meeting me that then you're going to be a customer for life and evangelist of the North Face brand for me. But then also like going out into a gutter lead, you know, you might go to Gutterlead and it's a 50. There's literally a job in Elkerboro, our hometown. We went out to a gutter lead and it was like 50ft of seamless gutters. How many roofers are going to come and bid that? Well, we did and it turned in $80,000 claim. Wow.

You know, and so where did you get this concept that these, these folks that might just be a gutter job or a repair job or something like that could be an evangelist for you?

I think everyone, everyone can, if you give, make them feel good about the experience, you make them feel special and cared about.

I think so many people don't approach it that way. They go, crap, man, I got a repair lead.

We love it.

Yeah.

I have a text thread that all my salespeople are on right now and they're like, today there was a text, text, like someone went out and sold a $2,000 window leak repair and they're sharing the contract and all. Like, it's not about the size you guys, about serving them, like, and that's the culture they have. You know, we are here to really take care of the customer and make them like happy. Because social proof, it comes around. Like, if what you do to others will come around, you need to make sure that you're doing the right thing.

100% agree with that. So we'll go back to 2018. Again. We had two people working for us. It's now 2020.

It was more than two at that time. So I had, I had actually one, two. I had three salespeople at the time. And then I production manager. And then I had a supplementer. That was short. That was short. That was like a short lived time. Then I outsourced that. Yeah. So 2018 we had, I think about six, seven team members, something like that.

So where are we at today? It's 2023.

In regards to team members or revenue? Yeah.

How many team members?

I think right now we're at about 28 full time people.

20.

Wow.

Did you say 20 or 28?

28.

28. Okay.

Wow.

And what kind of revenue are we looking at?

Well, last year we did 10.5. This year we're going to do 12 million residential and we're on track for it.

Like if you're looking at your numbers and everything, you're on track.

On track. If you take in the fact about an extra four weeks of winter, that pushed us out a little bit. So you take a Little bit of a mulligan there. A little bit of a mulligan on that one. But no, that's where we're at.

I want to. Pretty funny, though. Like, in those northern climates, that'll happen, right? Like, you have winter that goes longer and you're like, oh, crap, that's going to throw up all my numbers. Well, the work still needs to get done. It's just going to all happen very fast. It's going to be like big flow if I under weather. Correct. I was just up in Minnesota not too long ago. It seems to have broken and so are we hard at work now?

Oh, yeah. It's like you said, like, you got to go, you got to be ready. That's the thing. Like, especially in these markets, there's been a lesson I really learned in the last year or so is the speed. Like, you need to be agile and be able to produce and move fast.

Oh, here I am interrupting you again. But this is an important message you do not want to miss because it's about AI. AI in sales. Could you imagine having every sales call recorded, analyzed, tell you what's winning, Share it with everybody else so they can start winning. Everybody's closing percentages go through the roof. If you haven't heard of Rilla voice, you need to go check out Rilla today in the comments below. Josh, this has been a really good podcast. I think that they kind of seen, like, this growth. Some of the things you did along the way. You're talking to a guy that's either just starting up or he's stuck. Like, he's stuck as that small guy. Like, he's trying to figure out what that next step is. What are the two or three pieces of advice that you would. You'd give somebody if they came to you and said, hey, I'm looking for a mentor.

Oh, I'm looking for a mentor. Well, you need to get out there. You need to, like, get out of your comfort zone and go places where those people might be.

Well, they're asking you. You're the mentor. Hey, what are the first two or three things I need to do?

Need to know your numbers, and you need to have a budget. That's a hard lesson to learn. And a lot of roofers avoid the numbers and avoid the budget. But when you know your numbers and you know the budget, you can make magic happen, really, in a strategic way. So, like, really understanding your costs, understanding what your choke points are to getting your cash and getting that stuff pushed through, that you're. You're Excessive. Your ability to retain and deploy cash is like the ultimate turbocharge on your business.

Explain that a little bit. What do you mean by retain and employ cash?

So you know your ability to capital is. It really dictates your speed to grow. So, like, hypothetically, if I wanted to grow to 20 million, if I know my numbers, I know my closing rate and I retain my capital and I budget it properly, all I have to do is dump gasoline on the fire. So if you know your numbers and you're making sure that your capital is being managed properly, you can strategically grow.

Exactly how you want, 100%. Okay, so that awesome piece of advice, know your numbers, understand how capital fuels your growth. What else? I think just.

I think just like what we talked about before, that I organically just kind of have happenstance did is I like, branded myself because I was so desperate for work. I've been so broke before, Jim. I've been so broke, like, it's not even funny. Like, I mean, I had $15,000 at one point of medical bills, a broken ankle, and half of it was funded on a credit card. And I didn't know what the heck I was gonna do to, like, make money. You know, when you're desperate and you. I've left, like, fuel. Like, you figure it out real freaking.

Quick and you start posting really quickly.

Yeah, like, I need money. Who needs help with roofs? I do this. I mean, I'm talking like Snapchat stories. Like, the fun social media. I'd be on Snapchat on a roof. Like, what I'm doing my day in the work. People just started seeing that I was doing this every day consistently. And I think I didn't even try to do it. I was just having fun.

You were doing it before? Gary Vee said it was a thing.

I was doing it like anyone else was my age who wasn't doing it for business, just for fun. But I just added what I was doing every day in my business into it.

That's pretty cool. So what would you say are the two or three pinnacle things that have helped you to grow to this? 10 million, shooting for 12 million.

You don't know all just. I'm a. I'm a lifelong learner and I think having the mindset that you don't have it figured out and having like that, like just being able to learn, you're not going to ever have things figured out. So always be looking for opportunities to improve and learn and like, challenge yourself. Can you repeat the question again?

Sorry, no. What are the two like to grow a business.