Keep on Paddling with Ben Juncker

Foreign. Hey, everybody, it's Jim Johnson here, your host for Contractor Radio and the head coach at Contractor Coach Pro, where we help contractors get control of their business so they can grow their business and find that personal and financial freedom that they were chasing when they started their business. And today I'm super excited because I'm getting to talk to somebody that's been in this as long as I have, and he's got a lot of great things to share with you about his contracting experience and some of the things he's really passionate about in our industry that might be able to serve you well, especially when it comes to home exteriors and in particular, siding, and a very particular type of siding that has proven to be very beneficial to his business. But before we get there, we got to keep the lights on and pay the bills. We're to going to take a little word here from our sponsor, Hell Trace. You're not using Hell Trace. It's definitely worth the money. That money invested was one cell was already bought. We've got from deny or declined two acts of being bought just because of Hell Trace and the storm reports that they give us. Not only do I know where the storm's at sometimes as they're happening and I can already head right there to.

The storm, but also after the fact.

When I'm out knocking on doors, I can you show show homeowners the map and what kind of hail was in their area. We've seen a huge return on our investment, and I have no doubt that you will, too. So if you're an insurance restoration contractor out there and you're not using Hail Trace, what is wrong with you? Seriously? It's the best of the best that there is out there, not only from just storm data, but all the data they provide you as you help out homeowners and serve them well in your communities. Like I said, I'm excited about the guy that we're bringing on today. He's the owner of Craftsman's Choice, author of the Minnesota Homeowners Guide to Exterior Siding. His name is Ben Yunker. Ben, welcome aboard to our show today here at Contractor Radio.

Thank you.

So we got to talk a little bit before we got started here, and I got to realize a couple of things about you, and that was the fact that you are from the same metro area where I actually started and you started at the same time. So give us a little rundown. What what brought you here? How'd you get to where you are today and catch us up to speed on this whole book Thing. Why are we doing that?

Yeah. So my story is pretty similar to most of those that are in the home improvement industry. You out of high school, make some poor choices and end up with a hammer in your hand. In my case, it was a nail gun. And realized pretty quickly that I didn't want to be roofing houses for my entire life. So got hooked up with the siding crew that was a little bit easier, a little bit more fun, and then progressed into starting our own business. Just because we. We felt like there were things. Gaps in what the contractor that we were working for in their business, that it. To us, it didn't look that hard to be better than what he was doing. And so, you know, if we could be just better than he was doing, then, you know, maybe we could. We could make it. Neither one of us had families at the time, so we were, you know, you know, we're like, whatever, let's do it. Let's start our. Start our own deal.

That's awesome. So there's usually two routes to getting into this business. It seems like there's a third, but it's pretty rare. It's either somebody that's actually swinging a hammer and doing that, you know, the actual production side of the work, or somebody that's selling, you know, a good salesperson. And they decide pretty much for the same reasons, though, that they can do it a little bit better than everybody else. It's actually one of our coaching concepts. You got to be 1% better than everybody else out there, and you're going to do pretty well in this industry. So one of the things that was really interesting as I was introduced to you and started learning more about you, is you wrote a book, but it wasn't like a book that's really a, like, national bestseller type vibe to it. It's got a very specific name to it. Minnesota Homeowners Guide to Exterior Siding. I was like, how, what did you sell, like, three copies? I'm just kidding.

Seven, actually.

No, it was very specific for a reason. So, so why, why, why that strategy or that tactic?

Yeah. So. So what those of us that are in the business, we get insulated. We talk about home improvements every day. We talk about siding and windows and doors and roofing. But for most homeowners, unless you live in a storm zone, you're going to do a project like this maybe once in your life. And so we wanted to give our homeowners, like, what to expect, how to go about analyzing the different materials, how to go about analyzing the contractor. What is the process that you should, should look at when you're talking to companies. And so, you know, it's built around SEO work and making sure Google is happy. But, you know, people are starving for that, that information because they're intimidated by the process. You know, you walk down the aisle at a home show and you know, people are trying to get you to sign up and had a homeowner use the term predatory. They were, they were, they actually put a project off for a year because they didn't think they were ready, you know, to jump into the snake pit. So trying to ease people into that and kind of, you know, turn the attitude of homeowners into being more prepared. If they're more prepared, they then it's not as scary as it would be.

Yeah, it's actually I'm fortunate and grateful for the opportunity to get to speak quite a bit in this industry at different events and things like that. And one of the things I tend to ask the crowd is what do you think consumers think of contractors? Like, if they think of a contractor, what's the first things that come to mind? Man, there's been some pretty strong answers. Garbage man, ditch digger, used car sales guy. And it's really the whole idea behind Contractors Coach Pro is to change this perspective that the consumer has about us as contractors and that we can actually be professional and doing it right. Being professional can pay off, not just in the short term, but in the long term as well. Have you found the same to be true for you guys?

Yeah, definitely. And you know, sometimes the professionalism isn't because the lack of professionalism isn't because you don't care. It's that your time isn't allocated properly or you don't have, you know, the right people in the right spots. You know, those of us that came from the construction side where we were swinging a hammer, you know, we didn't take a business administration class. And you know, in college, some of the, some of those, those things that might simple seem simple to, you know, the regular professional world, we had to learn the hard way, you know, and so having those things set up a more professional business creates that customer experience that if you have a way to repeat that time after time after time and a way to track it, then that helps in the overall customer experience and your level of professionalism and the less time you spend trying to talk your way out of a hectic conversation or to add experience with a homeowner, which can. Are just time eaters.

Yeah, I can't agree more with that. 1. So I find it interesting, you said, for the guys swinging a hammer, you know, no, like real formal business education, just so you know, us guys on the other side that come from the sales, same thing. It's.

Yep, It's.

We're kind of good at one piece of it. There's so many other pieces that come into play, and we end up having to kind of learn, you know, by fire. You hear school of hard knocks this. Two steps forward, one step. What were some of the biggest hurdles for you as you move from being a subcontractor and into contracting and having your own business? What were the biggest things that got in the way of you being successful right from the beginning?

So I think one of the first things was our age. I was 19 and my business partner was 20. And going into a house asking for $25,000 down payment, even though they thought that, you know, you could probably do the work, you know, you got two years in business, you know, that kind of thing, that was. That was tough.

But then people with kids older than you. Right?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And then another thing was, you know, not having a repeatable process that was outlined and trackable. And as we started to grow, we kind of hit a. A ceiling, you know, around three and a half to five million where we needed that. That repeatable process. So we were able to develop that and implement some CRMs that helped us track that, and then that allowed us to scale with, you know, using technology to help us scale without adding a ton of people at that time. So that. That repeatable process is huge. Like, what do you want to have happen on every single job? Just write it down, you know, talk to your team. What do you want to have happen on every single job? And then find a way to make that happen and track it?

Yeah. And it's funny that you said about three and a half million. That's exactly where we see it. There's two things that start to really get in the way at that number, which is repeatable process and communication. This idea that I'm now hiring people that may not be my friends and family type of thing, I'm hiring somebody I may not know. And our level of communication has changed quite a bit because they don't think like we think. They're not around us every day. It's not like, in tune quite as well as you. Like. Did you find any of that, like, on the communication side? I know the process kind of helps with that, but did you find anything as far as, like, communicating as a leader where There were some struggles.

We did, we did. You know, fortunately for us, we, we had the right guy as a project manager. And he's still, he's my general manager now, but he was our roofer, and we hired him on as project manager. And he, he was just amazing. So that, I mean, he was Superman for those, those years. You know, there was. I, I, I don't know how he did it when we were out selling and, and running the business and he's managing all these projects. But we were, we were blessed to have, have Chris in that position because he just, he was a Superman. But, you know, then we realized if we want to go any further, we need another project manager. And when we started to branch out, there's where some of the, the, the, the communications kind of dropped off a little bit. And we had to figure out, you know, how to, you think that people would just know. Let, Let the customer know when the dumpster is going to be there. But, you know, unless you specifically say it like, well, of course the dumpster is going to be there. We're doing a siding project. Yeah, it's. But it's their home. They need to know. Just give them a call, say the dumpster is going to be there Tuesday. Right.

Like all those fun little things, huh?

Yeah.

So it sounds like there's two of you that are in the ownership capacity, and then you have a general manager that you gu. Have all kind of been together from the beginning.

Yeah. So my business partner Matt and I started the business, and then in 2014, he wanted a break and so he moved out to Montana. I bought him out. He went out there for a few years, and then actually he came back and he's one of our sales guys now, so. So I'm the sole owner. And then we've got a general manager, Chris, that is just, he's the man, he handles the production side.

So what were some of the skills that, like, especially early on, you know, you were back. Go put yourself back as that young guy, 19, 20 years. That. What were some of the skills that were the tipping point for you actually being successful? Because you have all kinds of hurdles and obstacles and, you know, not this formal education. What were some of the skills that allowed you to be successful?

I, I think perseverance. I mean, we. Like Tom Petty's Won't Back Down. That was like our theme song. You know, we, we just knew it was gonna work. And, you know, anything that came in our way, we just, we just worked through it. And, you know, working outside in 30 below, trying to get a siding job done so we could get paid and, you know, so we could pay rent, you know, that kind of thing. We just kept at it because we knew it was gonna. Was going to work. And the other thing was, was staying busy with something even when we didn't have a job. 1. One winter, we cut up siding samples and, you know, and. And stuck stickers on there with our. With our name and address and website just to stay busy with something, you know, always doing something on the business, even if it wasn't, you know, installing or running sales appointments.

So I've heard you mentioned siding a couple of times. It seems like that's. That's the area that you focus on in your business.

It is. Most of our marketing efforts are around siding, and then especially specifically the James Hardy siding. We signed up with them in the year 2000 on their preferred remodeler program. At that time, there was us and two other companies on there, and we subcontracted for the other two companies. So no matter who you chose, Matt and I were the ones that showed up to put your siding on the wall. It was a little awkward a couple times, but, you know, really focused.

You tried to sell them, didn't get them, and then you're out there. Exactly. Yeah. That was a lot of fun.

But, you know, at that time, it was. It was 750 to sign up on their program. So that was. That was a big deal to us. You know, we weren't making a ton of. Ton of money at that time, and. And we took the jump, and. And it's proven to be a. A pretty wise choice, but really rolled with the. The James Hardy siding, and we get residual business windows and roofing that comes off of that.

Now, was that something that you guys were really intentional about? And you're like, okay, so we're gonna go all in on this James Hardy thing. We think it's the cat's meow, the best thing that there is out there. What was the strategy behind it? Or was it just, hey, that's what we're gonna do?

So being in the business around that time, you know, it was. It was vinyl siding and vinyl windows. That's. That's what everybody was selling. And it came to a point where it was. It was almost a commodity. And we were all selling the same plastic s. Who had the lowest cost. And so we had a contractor that had sold a job. You know, typical deal, he sells the job, has nobody to install it, doesn't know what it is, and, you know, we're out there with the installation manual and trying to figure out how to cut this stuff. But we realized on that job this is, this is probably where, you know, siding is going. And so that's when we reached out to James Hardy and really just ran with it and decided this was going to be our differentiator to set us apart from everybody else selling, selling plastic.

I wonder if that was one of my sales guys where I'm going, I wonder if ever did any work for us. That's the pot. Because I didn't know everybody that worked for us. We got to be a pretty decent size at that time. And so maybe we can talk about that. Yeah, that's kind of wild. We had some amazing people doing work for us. And that's the part about this that I think we lose sight of sometimes as owners. And I don't think you ever would because you've been there. But the guys, you know, banging the nails and doing the work. And you mentioned 30 below. There's a reason I don't live in Minnesota anymore. Yeah, it's just too cold. I remember looking at my wife and going, hey honey, I love you and I get that you want to be around your family in western Wisconsin and all that good stuff, but it is 44 degrees below zero outside right now. Snow is up over my head. I'm done with this. As a Texas boy.

Right.

So we, we moved back here to Texas. Yeah.

To your point about the, the subcontractors or the guys that are actually doing the work, you know, it's since I started there, that's been something that's been important to us. We kind of preach the three legged stool. Right. The customer's got to win, the company's got to win and our installers have to win. And we have, we have installers that have been with us 20 years. They're, they're as close to employees as the insur and the government will let us let us get. But you know, it's, it's really fairly simple. You pay them well, make sure they get paid on time. We have a five day rule. So if the, they submit a bill in five days, they're going to have a check. So at five days it hits my desk and I review it. If the sales guy and the project manager hasn't had time to review it, it hits my desk, I review it and we get a checkout to them. And it's been.

You think a lot of that comes from your time as a subcontractor, like remembering that for sure.

You know, some, some companies only cut checks twice a month.

Yeah.

You know, and so I understand that from the office perspective, that makes total sense. But, you know, if you just finish that job and you've got to wait another two weeks, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of a different game.

You know, it's part of our strategy too. Like, we paid once a week, guarantee you all checks were not on Fridays. Anything you had turned in by Wednesday, you were getting. Getting paid on Friday.

Yeah.

And that allowed us to retain better crews, even though we might be paying the same or even maybe a little bit less than somebody else, knowing that consistently we were going to get our money. It wasn't going to get held up in any way, was. It was a differentiator. And I kind of noticed that about you guys. Like, that's, that's what it seems like you're about is differentiating. You mentioned the term commodity. I think a lot of us in this industry can be perceived that way. Like, I sell a roof, that guy sells a roof. We both sell this brand of roofing. How do we make ourselves different? Is that why you really chose the James Hardy thing, is to be that differentiating factor?

It was, but, you know, a close second was we believe that it was the right product for Minnesota. You know, we have a harsh climate up here. And so as you, as we get into it and you know, my guys go in, they really believe that's the best choice for this Minnesota homeowner. And so that, that shows. Shows forward when you're, when you're selling a product that you really. This is. I'm not just recommending this because I make the best margin on it or, you know, I'm getting a trip paid for by the manufacturer. This is. Those are bonuses. Right. Like, but, but you know, it. People can, people can sense when you know, unless, unless you're super good at hiding that people can sense when you know you're feeding them full of bull.

Yeah, I wish that would have been fun to have you at our. We just finished this sales conference in Philadelphia. We had 150 sales guys there going through this sales process that we teach on. And it's actually a concept we talk about is being genuine, authentic problem solver, this solution selling methodology. And I'm a strong believer that homeowners know, they know if you're full of it or not.

Well, they have access to more information than they've ever had. So, you know, you better be studied up when you go into a house because they are. And, you know, it's not. It's less educating a homeowner on. On product and, you know, and that. And. And talking about your process and. And. And your company.

Yeah. And that is the. The ideas. How do we solve a problem for them? You know, they. They wouldn't have us out there in the first place if they didn't have a problem. Do we have something that solves the problem for them? If we do, which version of that is the best one for them? And really being there to. To serve them instead of the other way around, it tends to be this, like, sales thing, like you're gonna close deals and stuff like that, which. Yes, that's absolutely part of it. We want to close jobs, but if we can't do it in a way that's serving the buyer, we end up in this situation of running around all the time with our, you know, like, our head on a swivel, wondering if one of our customers is in the grocery store as us. Right. And so I want to go back to the book for a second. Like, you named it Minnesota's Homeowner's Guide to Exterior Siding. So. And you mentioned SEO, right? Like, Minnesota. So somebody in Minnesota is looking for siding and education. Have you found it to work? Like, are people downloading it? Are people reading it? Have you had anybody talk about it whenever you come into a house?

Yeah, so we. On our website, when you sign up for an estimate, you get the. You get the downloaded. Downloaded copy. We also use it as a tool at the home shows. We have a. A state fair display booth at the state fair, which, being from Minnesota, you probably know how big. And in Roseville, you probably. Yeah, it is. I just came from there today. Yeah, it's. It's crazy.

It's.

They run 2 million people through there every year. It's. It's.

It is. It is a wild state. I've been to a lot of different state fairs. That one is intense. You got. Everything's fried. I mean, it doesn't matter what it is. Everything is right now. Let's talk about that a little bit, because a lot of contractors don't do those type of things like state fairs and home shows and stuff like that. Do you find them to be successful?

We do. We. So we do three shows a year. One's the US bank show, one's the. The big Minnesota Home and Garden show, and then the state fair. The state fair is just ridiculous. The return is just amazing. It's. You get 2 million people through there, and there's some legitimacy that you gain by being, you know, deciding guy at the, at the fair people. And I don't mind, you know, a lot of people want to catch people at the, at the bottom of the funnel when they're ready to buy. I don't mind planting that seed early in the process. Like they come. Yeah, we're a few years out. Well, here's some information. And they'll come back. Come back year after year to our fair does display. So, you know, when they do finally go to the website and sign up for an estimate, they're like, yeah, we've stopped you guys. We know who you guys are. We're building that relationship already. So that's kind of what our, some of our, our SEO work is about too, is, is catching people early in that process around some of the different design aspects and, you know, nurturing them over time. And just everywhere they turn they see our logo and finally. All right, we're, we should probably have these guys out now.

Do you handle the whole Minneapolis St. Paul area or is it, are you kind of focused in a particular part of town?

Yeah, we do. We. About 30 miles. 30 miles around Minneapolis and St. Paul. And then we, we opened up a St. Cloud, which is just kind of northwest. We opened up a branch up there two years ago.

Yeah, my wife would be happy to hear that, as where she went to college was okay. Yeah, I've been there a couple of times. Like. Yeah, that's the middle of nowhere.

It is. It's kind of growing a bit. And so it's, it's been pretty good. It's kind of a. We can run, we can run it out of our, our main office in, in St. Michael. And so it's kind of a nice little, little filler there for us.

Let's talk about that for a second. So successful Craftsman's Choice handling Minneapolis St. Paul. You must have had enough of people reaching out from that same cloud. Like Saint Clouds Wood, about an hour, hour and a half away, something like that.

It is. It's about 45 minutes from our office in St. Michael. So we're kind of the northwest suburb there for just our office. And our office is just kind of a hub. You know, I've got. Our guys don't come in there very, very much. They don't need to. We've, you know, they can access everything they need off our cloud based system. But we did have some interest, but we wanted to. Marvin has a, a limited line of windows, the Infinity line. And, and they, you know, we were Trying to get in with them and say, well, what about St. Cloud? Like, oh, geez, let me look at it. So we, you know, finding the right person, you know, a general manager up there, that's the key to the whole deal. So if I don't have somebody I can trust that I know I can turn the keys over to, it's not worth. It's not worth it. And. And we ended up finding that guy. He was a guy that had worked for us in the cities and kind of lives in that north metro. And he said, yeah, I'd rather drive 40 minutes in traffic than an hour and a half and not in traffic. And so he runs that. That operation for us.

So that's always a challenge for somebody. You know, they've grown their business pretty good at that point. By the time they open up a second office, things seem to be running pretty smoothly in most cases. And we go, all right, next thing, expand. And you had some good reasons, I'm familiar with Marvin, and how their dealers work and those type of things. And so you saw a bit of an opportunity there. What were like, minus the general manager aspect, somebody to run it. What were some of the biggest struggles that you didn't really think about or realize until you actually opened that other office?

So marketing windows is a lot different than marketing siding. Exciting. You know, you can sell the design and the color, and people get excited about it. Roofing and windows, like, I got to do windows, you know, they're not going to get the return, really, on windows. It's. You're fixing a, you know, a problem. And so. And it's. It's much more competitive, at least, you know, within what we're used to with, you know, James Hardy. There's. There's not a lot of people focused on James Hardy, and we have the background, you know, to kind of overcome some of that, Some of that. But, you know, marketing to windows, it's tough. It's. It's been, you know, we've. We've swung and missed on a few up there, but, you know, it's. It's.

It's.

It's going pretty good right now.

Good, good. Yeah, yeah, I can remember, you know, we actually ended up with 10 locations when it was all said and done. And I thought, man, I'm just going to go over and over and do the same thing. It's not the same.

No. And your competitor, your competitive products are different. So, you know, up there, there's a lot of steel siding, and, you know, we're used to going against vinyl and, and LP down here in the cities. But steel, you know, it's a lot. Well, it's good on my pole barn. It's good enough for my house.

And you have a different market there too. You know, Minneapolis and St. Paul, a little bit more urban, you know, that type of feel to it. But say club, I would say, is a little bit more rural. Do you see a difference in the clientele at all?

Yeah, for sure. Yep.

Yeah, that tends to be one of those things, like as people assess, hey, I'm going to go open a new location. What are you assessing about market demographics? Does anything change? Those are all big hurdles. So what is it about James Hardy in particular that makes it the choice for Minnesota contractors? And would it be the choice in other places?

Well, I think it is the choice in other places. You know, I'm not too familiar with other markets and what those, those products are, but with the extreme heat and cold that we have here in Minnesota and temperature swings, you know, we need something that's dimensionally stable. It's not going to expand and contract. And wood siding, lp, vinyl siding, they all expand and contract quite a bit. But also, you know, when it comes storm time, you know, it's impact resistant. So you're not going to get the hail damage you do to vinyl siding. And if the insurance company fights you and only does one wall, you got, you know, different color sides on, different on your, on your house. But also the process in which they finish the board, you know, they, they finish it in their factory, heat the board up to whatever temperature X is for maximum paint adherence, put that on, and then you've got that warranty held by one manufacturer. So you've got your paint, your finish, and then your, your house wrap off from one manufacturer. So they're not pointing fingers at each other trying to, trying to slough off a warranty claim.

Yeah, I might have had one or two of those. It's a frustrating thing. So I noticed as you were talking about your company and especially your people, it seems like they've been there for a while. Is that a fair assessment?

It is, yeah. Our first employees still, still with us. Ryan's been with us 21 years. Chris has been with us 18 years. Our crew's, you know, 20, 15 years. So we, it's really a family atmosphere. We, we go to do a trip to Mexico every other year with the guys and their spouses. You know, we've got a golf tournament we all do together where we bring in vendors, we bring in all our Subcontractors. For a lot of our guys, it's the only time they play golf the entire year. But you know, it's just a time to get together and get everybody in the same spot.

Yeah, this past Sunday looked like the only time I played golf all year. Look that way.

That's golf.

What drives that? I mean, because you hear today, and this is one of the biggest complaints that we deal with with contractors that are coming to us for coaching is there's a lack of loyalty. People don't work hard, all of those things. What would you say is making your company a bit different? About that?

So with our subcontractors, you know, we talked about paying on time and paying, paying well. But the other piece of that is being organized enough so that they can load up their equipment and drive straight to the next job and unload it. You know, I feel that's on us being organized enough that they don't have to leave to go get the get materials. And that's something that you need to have a system in place for because it doesn't, you know, there becomes a time where you can't pay enough for those days off. If they're not able to work because that job's not ready and they're waiting two days or they have to pull off because the right materials weren't there or they're back ordered, you know, that's, it doesn't matter how much you're paying a square, they're not putting any squares on during that time. And so that on the employee side, you know, a lot of our employees are former subcontractors, our project manager, former subcontractors that, you know, it's time to hang up the tool belt. And so we find a spot for them inside. And so they've got that long term relationship with the business. They, they know how we operate. They trust us that you know that they're gonna. Because really when an employee comes to you, they're putting their livelihood in your hands. And you know, if you look at it like that, that's a, that's a big responsibility that you have as a, as an owner and as somebody who's in a management position that, you know, you've got a lot of lives that are dependent on you to, to, to make it.

I think that's one of the things that we don't consider when we go into business is that feel that happens. There's a feel that happens whenever you have people working for you. And you're sitting there, you're, you're knowledgeable of all things. You know, what money's coming in, what jobs are being sold, overhead that' out. You know, when it's tight and when it's not tight and all the other stuff. When it's tight and you're, you're thinking, hey, am I going to be able to pay everybody this week? That responsibility is huge. I want to come back and talk with you a little bit about that. I gotta, I gotta keep the lights on around here. We, we put in a sponsor in the middle, but can you hang on for just a few minutes?

Yeah, no problem.

And I'd like to come back and talk to you about, you know, maybe what's in you that's driving some of that stuff. Sure seems like there's something more there. So we'll come back and talk about that in just one second after we hear from Atlas.

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One of the themes of our conversation today has been differentiating yourself and making what you do different, not a commodity. It's one of the reasons why we love having Atlas as a sponsor because they do have some things that make them a little bit different. With the Scotchgard and SBS and these things that I can use as a contractor to separate myself from other folks out there. Ben, first off, first bit of the show has been amazing. It's been really cool getting to know you and kind of listen about your company, how you came from being a subcontractor, then deciding as a young guy, like 19 years old, we're going to start contracting business and to see the success that you've had, see some of the marketing tactics that you do. But I noticed, like, this undertone, a little bit of being very intentional about what you do. Do you have any kind of sense of what's driving things that way? Are you just naturally wired that way? Is it something that is a skill that you've practiced, you've gotten some coaching or something? Is it what. What's going on there?

Well, I would, I would say that a lot of it comes from my, my upper upbringing. You know, I used to, I used to kind of make fun of my dad because, you know, he'd come home and, you know, he'd be working on his computer. And now my wife will actually call down and, and say, hey, Sam, it's time for dinner, you know, because. Because that's what my dad used to do. But that staying busy, I mean, I, I needed to stay busy when I was a kid or I'd get in trouble. And, you know, I, I was able to kind of focus that with, with the business on things that were moving forward and just not being complacent and, and, and moving forward. And then, you know, in 2001, when my son was. Was born, you know, that was, that was a pivotal time in my life. And, you know, my wife and I decided to come back to a church that we had been away from for a little bit. And, you know, that partnering of God and family really has been our guide over the last 20 years.

That's super interesting. Similar story, probably a much worse situation. But I was away from my faith the way I should be for a very long time. I was very focused on work, business, you know, building this big, huge thing, and to be honest with you, a lot of ego aspect of it and that type of thing. And there was just a moment where I still, I wasn't feeling it right. Like, I accomplished all these things and everybody else from the outside would go, man, that was amazing. You got this beautiful house and amazing family and beautiful property and big business and all this stuff. I still was like something was missing. Did you have anything like that whenever this was going on? Or was it like, hey, we now brought this child into the world, and we want to have that child raised in this type of environment.

Yeah, we were. I was at the opposite end of the income spectrum there. We were dead broke, you know, but. But we were happy. You know, we. But really, when my son was born, you know, I realized that this, you know, this is something that I've been entrusted with, and we need to make some changes in our life and lives. And, you know, we bought a old rundown house for like, $92,000. We couldn't even move out, move in. It was just. The renters had destroyed it. But it had a big barn and two and a half acres, and we were happy as could be. And so, you know, we started, you know, doing the things that we probably knew we should have been doing all along. And, you know, we've been blessed since then.

It's one of the things we struggle with in. In business. This. Hey, business is over here and spiritual life is over there, and we kind of separate the two. Like, spiritual life, hey, that's Sunday, but Monday through Friday, I've got this month. Do you. Do you find yourself connecting the two? And if you do, how has that played in your business?

A little bit. It, you know, as a business owner, it's tough to, you know, share too much with your religion because you don't want, you know, your guys to, you know, to feel pressure, that kind of thing. But, you know, I was. I was called as a bishop for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in about four and a half years ago. And so I sat down with the guys and said, look, this is.