The Art of Persuasion with Dr. Yaniv Zaid

Foreign.

Hey, everybody, it is Jim Johnson, your host here with Contractor Radio with another amazing episode. And this one's like Amazing Square. This is one of those things that I am uber passionate about whenever it comes to sales, talking to people, being in a crowd, making, maybe even speaking from a stage. Some of you, I know that that is what you're after. I got a message in my email about a guy that wanted to talk to me. I get a lot of those. And so I have this thing where I always go and research them and see what they're up to. And this guy, wow, amazing. He's written 11 books. He's Amazon bestseller. He works both with Hebrew and English. It's amazing what he does. This idea of persuading people to buy what it is that you're selling. And there's actually a bit of art to that. I have a feeling we might talk a little bit of the science about it too. We'll see. But I would love to welcome to the show the author of Sales Bible. Like, wow, man. That is pretty cool too. Great title, Yaniv. Welcome aboard, man.

Hi, Jim. How are you? It's great being here. I listen to your show and I enjoy every, every chapter. So it's a privilege for me to be here.

Well, I. First things first. I want to apologize for not doing what I should have done. I should have gotten all my technology working again. We did this two day challenge thing last week with all my team and my staff, and we had all kinds of video equipment going. They moved everything around on me and it was my job to put it all back together. And I'm not the guy that usually does that. So thanks for bearing with me and moving over to a different platform for getting this recorded this morning. I appreciate it.

Great. Let's provide value to our viewers and listeners.

That's awesome. So, Yaniv, give us a little bit of background. Like, I saw that your. Your business has been in business for like 20 years. It's not 20 years new or anything like that. We've been in business 10 years. I think that's a big deal. So 20 years of doing what you do. Give us a little bit of background and why you went into this arena.

Okay. I'm 46 years old, I live in Israel. I'm married for the second time, and I have two great kids. And for the last 20 years, I provide business consulting and lectures on how to improve your public speaking abilities, sales abilities, marketing abilities, presentation abilities, persuasion abilities, and I work with governments, I work with public organizations, with firms, private firms, Also contractors, also speakers, also startups in order to increase their income and build their professional authority. I'm also a lawyer, an economist and a mediator and realtor and some other degrees. And as you mentioned, I wrote 11 books, six in Hebrew and five in English. And the books were translated to many languages. I sold so far more than 300000 books worldwide, including United States, Canada, China, Russia, India, the Philippines, Vietnam and more countries. And I can tell you that I work worldwide and I lecture worldwide. People are people in every. Everywhere. You know, the same problems. You know, business owners, contractors, same problems everywhere speakers, same problems. Because our brain works in a. In a certain way, you know, on. In the subconscious level. So it's the same worldwide. This is why my principles or my, my, you know, my theories work each time.

That's pretty man. I got a lot to unpack there. So. So let's talk about that. You said people are the same wherever you go. They have the same problems, they have the same issues. The things. So. And you mentioned like business, especially like this idea that we all have the same problem problems in our businesses. I also noticed that this is what you studied. I believe in university. Right, like yeah, language. What is it that you see as those common problems that are delineated all across the world?

You know, if you ask people what, what would you like from life? What do they want? So you get. There are researchers about it. Four answers, not specifically disorder, but love. People would like love and health and wealth. And, and they would like to be. So they would like to be rich, they would like to have money. They would like people to love them. People, spouses and, and also friends. And they would like to. To. To be happy. Okay. Happiness, wealth, health, love and happiness. Now if you look at the education system all I think all over the world, they don't teach us those four things. You know, if you go to elementary school, then high school and then in Israel you go to the army, but some places you go to the. Straight to the college and then university. So people teach you a lot of stuff, but they don't teach you how to make money, how to find love, how to maintain love, how to be a better parent, how to be a better person, etc. So for example, I study law and economic in. In economy in. In my university. So I learned everything about law. I learned, you know, public law and you know, banking law and everything except three things. How to speak like a lawyer in. In court, you know, how to write legal documents, you know, and how to market myself as A. As a private lawyer, you know, and when you go to the market, what you need to do, you need to speak, you need to write, and you need to market yourself. So there is a really big gap between what you need in life and what the formal education system teach you. So this gap is closed by people like you and you and I, you know, the. I call it the experts economy, the experts industry that we, we teach people their skills, their basic skills, how to do things, you know, because if you open a business, for example, I study economy and for three years in. In a. In a good degree, in a good university, I never heard the word marketing in, in economy, yes. Not in geographic. Something like that. And the word money only, you know, only brought up when we talked about models from, you know, the last century. So you go outside to the world, you know, you go out and you open a business or you start doing something and you're very good at what you do, but you don't know how to market it. You don't know how to talk about yourself. You don't know what is elevator pitch and how to explain about yourself. You don't know how to answer in no way objections and questions from clients. You don't know how to run your numbers. You know, all the stuff you talk about. So basically, you don't have the knowledge from the formal education system, it's worldwide, all over the world, almost, to do it. So this is why the markets need people like you and you and I, because we teach those skills. And this, this is. Was one of my conclusions all over the years that, that nobody teaches you how to, to do public speaking, for example, how to deliver your message. And this is my mission in life. My mission in life is to help people build their professional authority and, and grow their business, you know, and become the best business person they can be and, and talk better and explain better and sell better. And my basic assumption is, is that they are good at what they do. Okay? My basic assumption is everyone that hears us now, they are good at what they do, they are good contractors, they have great message. Now let's deliver it to the world.

That's really good. I will admit some of this podcast and having you on my show was a bit selfish. I get to speak often in front of crowds, and they can be anywhere from, you know, 10 or 15 people all the way to thousands. You know, I think the biggest group I've ever spoken in front of was about 5,000 people. Are there, are there differences in how you communicate with those different sizes of Groups or is it the same?

Usually there is a, you know, a stage fright or, you know, people fear big audiences. You know, if we talked about hundreds of people or thousands of people, I will say to most people, they will, they will immediately be afraid. And I say, no, on the contrary, it's, it's a, it's easier to talk to thousands of people than do 15, 20 people. Okay? Why? Because if you talk to 15, 20 people, you see each face. You see when they look at the watch, you see when they leave the room, you see where they, where they, you know, are interesting in you and where they are not. Or when they look at their phone and immediately you think, oh, maybe it's my, my bad, my problem, I, I'm not interesting enough or something like that. But if you look at a crowd of thousands or hundreds, then you don't see faces. You just see, you know, lots, lots of circles, you know, and, and, and you don't actually see the audience. This is why it really helps. Even singers, for example, people that operates in front of many crowds. And, and maybe they have a stage fright, but, but it's better for them. So I always treat a lecture or workshop like a conversation. I say to my clients, lecture is a conversation, just a conversation with many people, okay? Like you are good at one on one. Just do it in front of many people. And as long as you get gain experience, then you will be better. You know, if you will have the first time, it will be difficult, second time it will be easier. And the 10th time will be much easier. And you need all the time to be in emotion, you know, to, to. To move forward and to gain the experience. And then life will be better. And if you look at it as a conversation, you don't need to be perfect, you know, you don't need to be perfect. Speaker. You know, I always tell my clients, you need to be Batman, not Superman. You know, you know the difference between Batman and Superman because they both are human beings, okay? And they both look like human being and they both superheroes, but Superman is actually came from another planet. So if Superman will have a workshop on how to fly, you know, and I will sit in the first row and write everything and it will explain to me everything. You know, you go to the roof, you check the weather, you check the wind, you do the first step, I will do everything he says and then I, I will fall because I'm not a superhero from another planet. But Batman is an ord person who developed a very unique perspective and techniques. So Batman can Can tell me I was once like you. Okay. I, I, I, my parents were murdered when I was young. Etc. This is my life story. And then I teach my, teach myself how to fly and then I will teach you. So people are more related to Batman, not to Superman, you know, people are more related to people who did, who did the journey, you know, and I also hear you one in one of your chapters talking about your journey. You know, the fact that we are not perfect. You know, this is, this is why people connect. So people need to connect your clients, you know, audience, they need to connect to the person you are and then they will like your professionalism.

Yeah, I've made all the mistakes that you could possibly make. It seems like in this whole entire contracting world, which allows me to relate to a lot of what's going on out there for the other folks. And I want them to know that I'm not perfect. I've made all those mistakes. I want to help them not make as many. They're probably still going to make some. It's funny, like you can even like advise people not to make them and sometimes they will still go and do them just to prove to themselves or gain the experience that hey yeah, that doesn't work. I want to go back to, to what you talked about. Love, health, wealth and happiness. Those four things. Do you think, because the first instinct to me was those were wrapped up in one thing that they're like ultimately after this concept of peace. Is that what, is that what you think they might really be after or am I off base on it?

You can talk about peace, peace of mind. You know, if you're a good, in a good economic shape, you're, you have a peace of mind. If people, people love and care care about you, then you're in with peace of mind. You know, when the, the personal, if, if you're a business owner, you know, personal and, and business wise they are connected. You know, if it's good at home, then it's good in your business. If you're, if you're a great mentor outside, then you are, you know, you're not a, a good parent for example, or a good spouse. Then, then you have a problem in life. So I, I believe in, in personal development. You need to improve all the aspects in your life and we're talking about business but obviously if you're a business person, business owner, then, then you are alone you in the, you know, the top of the pyramid. Then you need to develop yourself as a human being, as yourself and our, our job is to, to, you know, to shorten the, the learning curve, you know, that we say. The fact that you talk about the mistakes you've made 10, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, tells people that they develop the business today to, to make less mistakes. So I was telling my clients, it took me 20 years to get to what I am, where I am. Then I can teach you do it in three years, five years, not 20 years. Okay? And 20, 24, we have lots, lots of more options than I had or you had 20 years ago. Because 20 years ago there were, there were no Facebook, no YouTube, no, you.

Know, there was, there was no YouTubing on how to fix this thing on my truck. Right? None of that kind of stuff or how to find this piece of information about my business. And, and that's a, a bit of the problem I think today sometimes too is there's so much information, there's so much access to it that I talk about this concept an awful lot. What I call a thin ice society. In other words, we know a little bit about a lot of things, but not a whole lot of depth and understanding about the key things. Like those things that are important to you, which for me, I have found them to be leadership and personal growth. Those are the two areas where I spend the majority of my time trying to get that 1% better every day type of perspective. So I'm not out there becoming an engineer or a scientist or building Tesla cars or any of that kind of stuff. I've gotten really focused in that arena because I only have so much capacity in this small little brain that I have for the things that I can learn. Do you, do you see that out there in the world too? Like people trying to be a little too thin on things?

Yes, I agree with you, but I think it's a good advantage for the experts industry and for, also for contractors or speakers, because if you have lots of information, you always see, seek for the, for the expert, you know, because we have so many articles, so many videos, so you look for the persons that they know what they're talking about and they have a certain niche. For example, your podcast is a certain niche, you know, for contractors. So people always look for, for experts. And, and my definition of expert is very wide. I will give an example. Let's say you go to, to a restaurant in area you don't know and you sit in a restaurant and you don't have much time to eat and the waiters comes and what you ask her, what, what do you recommend? Right, right. Automatically, what do you recommend? Now let, let's think about it for a minute. You don't know her. You know, maybe I'm 46, she's 21 years old. Usually I don't consult with 21 years old. And immediately I turn to a person I don't know and I ask her, you know, a very decision, a very pro decision. What, what am I going to take into my body now? You know, you will provide me a food inside my body. And I know the waitress also represents the restaurant. Not, not me. Maybe she offers me, you know, the dishes that will soon run out of, you know, of business. So, so now she offers me it. So why do I ask someone 21 years old that I don't know what to enter into my body? Because in this restaurant, she's the expert and I don't have much to eat. So I immediately ask her without even thinking what you recommend. And I consult with her, you know, because she knows what she, what she's doing. Now usually most people automatically would like to, to, you know, to shorten the learning curve and would like to, to say, I don't have much time, please tell me what to do. So if you're talking about contractors, then most people speak. Most people, they don't know how to fix things or not, you know, how to build, build the house or how to build the kitchen, how to repair something. So if I consider you as an expert, then immediately I am willing to pay you more and I am willing to hear you more, to listen to you more and argue with you less, and I will talk about you more. I will have viral. You, you will have viral marketing, because after you fix my kitchen, I, I will be a great ambassador for you for the rest of your life. If I consider you as an expert, I will come back to you again and again and again.

I could not agree more with that concept. And I get that from observation. Watching the contractors that begin to grow and do well, it's because they become experts at a certain thing, possibly in their business. Maybe they're great at this type of roofing or that type of fence work, or maybe they're great at just building culture. They have something that they're really great at that attracts others, and they can also speak from a place of authority with their prospective clients. Whenever I'm in a restaurant, I do the same thing. I just do a little bit different. I always say, hey, this might be my only chance to ever eat here. I don't know what's going to happen to me tomorrow. Or somebody like me. And I want them to relate to me, right? I don't want them to relate to their 20 year old. I like chicken fingers. I want them to relate to me. For somebody like me, what's the most popular dish that you hear ordered and people say they love? And so I want them to like really think a little bit because I, I might only have one chance to eat at that place. And I really try to be as cognizant of my need as much as possible whenever I'm doing that. Because a lot of times when you ask somebody to recommend something, like you said, it's their own meat, it's their, is the. How many plates of this do we have left? What is it that I like versus what does, you know, somebody that's a 50 year old guy that comes in here, eat that type of thing. I thought that was really good.

By the way, the marketing principle here is called social proof. Because actually what you ask the waitress is please tell me what everyone likes. And I will, I will decide accordingly. But there is only one catch. Because if the waitress, from the, from the beginning of the shift, she offers the same dish to everyone, she, she can tell you, well, most people choose this, this dish, you know, but obviously they would choose it because this is the dish you recommended all day. So, so, you know, it's, it's the egg in the chicken, you know, it's a, she can, she can tell you this is the best dish, this is what most people choose, but this is because she offers them it more and more and more.

Right? So one of the things I noticed on your website that I wanted to talk about, I mentioned this before we actually even started today. This is the one that I, I want to, I want to dig into because I applies to our listeners. You're a contractor, you're trying to sell something to somebody else. In most cases, that's really the only way our businesses stay in business is if we sell something. And there's a comment on your website says don't sell your clients, make them buy. And I'm a big, huge proponent of the words that we use. I believe they hold power. I believe it's really important how we put them together. Why that? What do you mean by that?

I, I define as sales into two different kinds. There is hard sale and soft sale. Okay, so hard sale is when, you know, I sell to you, you know, I say, okay, this is a product, you need to buy it, you need to, to pay now, please take it, etc, and then sometimes clients feel that I Push, I push too much. You know, I push them. The, the, I offer them too much. And in the conscious level I, I feel, the client feels that okay, he's a salesman, he probably gets a commission from it, he probably needs you know, more money for the business. So obviously it will offers me or offers me this. So on the sub, on a conscious level, hard sale in 2024 is, is less good because automatically when I feel people are selling to me, automatically I defend myself. You know, I start saying no, no way, not now, it's, it's too expensive. Etc. But soft sale is I don't sell you. I tell you a story and then you buy. Okay? I create good content. You get my content. You understand, I'm, I'm good at what I do. You understand? I'm expert. And then you offers me you, you know, you are the lead. You are the, you know, you connect you, you make the contact with me. Okay? There is, there is a mechanism that, that clients need to, to go through. It's called know like trust and then buy. Okay, four stages. So the first stage is to know. I, I, I need to know, to know that you exist. Okay? I need to hear about you if you, there are many contractors in my town. I need to know about you, that you even exist. I, before I take my decision. This is the first step, okay? And then second step is I need to like you. I need to like you to have a personal chemistry. You're talking about long term relationship. If you know, if I repair my house, you know, I build my kitchen, I, I, you know, build, build, build something. It takes, it takes time. I need to, I need to, to be comfortable in you, in my house, etc. So I need to like you. By the way, I can like you even though I didn't met you personally because I saw your videos because someone recommended about you because you know, I, I saw something you wrote you, you wr something like that. And the first stage is trust. Trust. I need to know that you're an expert, that you provide what you speak, that you walk the talk. Okay? And this is this. I can all through a personal, through a social proof because if I see your diplomas, if I see your, the, the numbers of years of expertise and what other clients you know, testimonials, etc, this is how, how I know that you're reliable and expert. So only if I you go through stage number one, that people know you and then stage number two that people like you and say number three, that people trust you, then they will buy from you and this is soft, say, because I don't need to push myself all the time, you know, and all the time I offer the, offer them things. Okay, I, I, I, I pro, offering things, yes, but, but in a soft way. And then the client feels that he chose me and I didn't press him till, till he cranked, you know, they chose me. And this is the best way to start a relationship. Afterwards, you know, you prove yourself as an expert, you do great job, there will be ambassadors for you, they will go back again and again, they will refer to your other clients, etc. And then you can ask them for other clients or you can be proactive, but they will do it on their own.

First off, you're one of the few people that I have heard that includes the word no, right? Like K, N, o W. Most people say that people buy from people they like and trust. That's what you hear an awful lot. And I, and I completely believe that's a fallacy. I think that you may buy from somebody that you like and trust, but if you know them prior to them showing up, or if they can establish that knowing quickly, it makes a big difference in the result of the sale. And so kudos, like I, I'm on the same page with you on that one. And a lot of that may come from our marketing side of things, right? I believe that ultimately making a sale is a two sided coin. I've got my marketing team out there doing what they do, or even myself as a marketer, if I'm smaller, to create this knowledge of me. There's actually a really cool equation for this and I, I give it to Rory Vaden is who I actually heard this from. It is the concept of your reputation. And your reputation is a math equation, a multiplication equation of your results times your reach. And so yes, I do a lot of great work, but if nobody knows about it, I have zero reputation. Also, brand might be another word you could use in place of reputation because I think that's what brand really is, is what people perceive of who we are. And then if I have a lot of reach, in other words, a lot of people are aware of me, but I do crappy work, I'm going to go out of business pretty quickly. But if I have really great work and really great reach, then it becomes this opportunity that now they know me, my marketing has done its job, I'm supposed to go there and be likable. So what are some of the things that people can do to be likable?

Okay, first of all, this Podcast is a great example because we are having a cooperation right now. You have your own community. I have my own community in different countries, by the way, different areas. And the fact that I'm in your podcast, then your community will get to know me. And if they hear us for an hour, they will also. Some of them will like me and trust me that I know what I'm talking about. And then at the end of the, at the end of the interview, I will go the conversation. I will do a call to action. I will say how to reach me or I will give them the address of my website. So some of them will go into my website and read more materials and then they approach me and the same vice versa, because I will take this, this conversation and put it inside my YouTube channel and through my community and they will get to know you. So this is a. I believe in cooperations, you know, because then two people with everyone, everyone has their own community. They get to know one and then the committees, communities get to get to know one. Okay, and the second of all is the second ex. This is first example. The second example is testimonials. What is testimonial? Actually, if I did a great job for you, you are my client now. You're happy. This is an achievement, right? But who knows about this achievement? Just two of us, right? Me and you. But now if I ask you to write something about my work or to take a video or to write accommodation in my Facebook page or YouTube page, okay, something like that. Then I document the achievement and then I, you know, let's say leverage the achievement because more people see the good job I did for you, and then I have another achievement because maybe a better client or richer client comes now and say, okay, what you did for Jim, I would like also to do for me. And then I have another achievement. And then also I document this achievement and I build like a ladder, you know, with. Of achievements. And each achievement makes me. Enables me to, to leverage you to the next step. So even if you started now and you don't have a large community and you don't have large, many, many achievements, start with what you, what you do have, you know, with the little projects you did, maybe even you did something for free for your friends and family, it's okay. And this is an achievement. You can show pictures of what you did, you can, you can tell stories about your, you can write about it. And then more people will come, paying customers, and then better customers, Great, you know, bigger customers. And this is how you build the ladder of, of what you do. And it's okay to start with friends and family, for example, or with the environment annoys you. Because if you started as a contracting contractor in, let's say, 25 years old, you know, you wasn't born. Now you have 25 years of experience, you know, you have many circles of life, the college neighbors, you know, colleagues, etc. That you can start telling them, well, hi, I am a contractor. I can, you know, build your house, I can fix your kitchen, whatever, and, and if you'd like those services, please let me know. And we talked about the mechanism of no lack trust. You already have this mechanism with the people who knows you, Right. They already know you, they like you, they trust you that just don't know that you can fix. Now fix houses, for example. So once you tell them, they can start giving you the first, your first projects. So I believe in referrals and I believe in corporations very much.

Yeah, that's actually a big piece of advice that we give to especially new people coming into this industry, whether they're starting a new business or maybe they're a new salesperson for a business, is to go to your immediate network first. Those people know you, they hopefully like you. And if we give you the training and everything that you need to be seen as an expert, hopefully they'll trust you as well. So those are really important. One of the things I've noticed whenever I'm in that mode, right, Like I'm out doing what I do in order to get people to like me, first off, I have to just be me, right? Like, I gotta understand that part of it.

Authenticity is very, very important. Yeah, yeah.

Don't, don't be fake. Don't be somebody that you're not. But I believe that people really want to be acknowledged or recognized or that they have value or there's something special about them. And so we use these concepts, using who I am to recognize who they are. For example, if I'm walking up to a house, I see a bunch of kids toys out in the yard and I know they have kids. So I'm going to ask them about their kids having concern for another human being or even their little human beings that they've created starts to create some of that likability. Like, oh, that guy acknowledged me. He didn't just come over here and try to sell me something.

Yes, this is part of the soft sale. And I think the first. I agree with you and I think that the first principle in sales is love your clients. Love your clients by the way we talked about speakers. First principle in, in public speaking. Love your audience. Because if you love your audience, you will get love back. And if you love your clients, you will get love back. And as we mentioned earlier, it's a, it's a long term relationship. When I do, you know, construction for some client. I'm not just here for the short term, not just fixing now the problem. I would like him to remain my client for the next 20, 40 years. I would like him to bring all his friends and family. This is the best case scenario. I would like him to, you know, to give me referrals, to give me a testimonial. Okay. I will have many, many things to do. I would like to, to do upsell and cross sell, you know, after I finish the job to, to maybe to sell more things that this client needs. So we're talking about long term relationship. And it's only can happen if, if, if they like me, if they trust me, obviously if they know me and if they had a good experience. And I believe in be authentic. We are only 20, 24. You know, people have a bullshit radar or, you know.

Yes, they do. Yes they do. They, they know when you're being fake. It's just that simple. So only be interested in things that are genuinely interesting to you. Like if you're not into hunting and you show up at somebody's house and they got a bunch of animal heads on the wall, don't like start talking about that because you're not going to have anything you can really relate to with them and they're going to want to go deeper into that thing. So find the thing that really matches up with you. Because not everybody's your client. I'm a firm believer in that.

Yes.

Some people just aren't going to like you. Unfortunately, I believe we all kind of have our measure of people that, that like us. And it's interesting that you talked about this because you mentioned something and I've been working on this little piece of content that I want to do because I know there's no like trust. You've heard that concept before. A lot of people leave out the no part. But you mentioned a word there that I've been working on with it which is no love believe. And so that's what that know like trust gets you is hey, we want them to know us. And so we've got to get the word out. They need to be aware of us, understand who we are. Want them to actually love me because I want to love them. I want To I want to treat them as a human being and, and loving them is the ultimate right. And if I do, maybe they'll love me back. And then if I am that expert and I do know what I'm talking about, I can solve their problem. Then they start to believe in me as their possible solution. So the sale part becomes actually pretty easy. There is one other thing in there, and I would love to talk with you about this because this is one of those things I'm battling with. Like, I understand all of that and it seems very outpouring from me to them, but there's this piece in there and I tend to do it throughout where I want to make sure that I provide them the right solution. So we talk about this solution selling methodology where you're asking lots of questions and then they really kind of tell you what it is that they truly want versus what they thought they want. And then how do you position that thing to make it the thing that fits their particular needs? So somewhere in that know, like trust, I'm also identifying what their possible solution could be through a lot of question asking and listening or being a really good listener. How do you handle that piece?

Okay, I agree with you. So the, the principle here is sell the problem before the solution. You know, before the solution. The construction is the solution. You know, the, the repair, the. But the innovation. But this is the solution. But, but the problem. What is the problem? Why do I need to repair my kitchen? Why do I need to. To, you know, to renovate my house? Okay, what are my needs or my wife's needs or my kids needs? Maybe the, it's the bigger family. Maybe something is broken. Maybe I would like to. I, I feel envy with my neighbor. I would like also to do repairs, repairments like he did or something like that. I need to understand why people do what they do. And if I do it, it's more, it's easier to sell to them, you know, because if I, if the bigger the problem, the more I'm willing to pay for, for fixing the problem, you know, or the bigger the need. If you take, you know, flowers, you will take a bouquet of flowers, regular flowers, you can charge $50 for it. But if you call these flowers a bridal bouquet, you know, flowers for the wedding, then you can charge 250, you know, five times more. But don't worry about it. Yeah, yeah. The same flowers, right? I got married twice. I know. So the, the same, the same flowers, you know, what is the difference? The need. The need. Because when you buy, when the bride and groom buy the, the bridal bouquet. They don't actually buy the flowers. You know, they buy the winning image of the winning picture of the queen for a day. You know, the feeling of familiar dollar feeling and the, the winning picture of ten years from now they will sit with their kids and will put, they look at the photos album and they say, oh look how beautiful mommy was. In 30 years from now they will sit with their grandkids and say oh look how beautiful grandmother was or something like that. This is what I, I sell them. This is what they buy. So it's not about construction, it's about the construction is the solution. It's about what is the problem that I can fix. What is the, the an. The need that I will give an answer. What is the pain that I'm the cure? You know, this is a. And, and I don't know the pain unless I question people and I talk to people and I love people and, and again, it's not a, you know, you're not, you know, you don't need to be the, the best public speaker. You know, there is only one Jim Johnson. There is only one reside. You need to be the best version of yourself. But just being a professional, it's not enough. It's not enough being just professional. You, you need to be professional as well in sales and marketing and, and you know, relationships with your clients. And the more you love them, the more you are interested in them is, is better for you. And even if I'm going to see that you hunt and I don't hunt, but I'm curious, so I will ask you questions about it and, and I will let you speak. And obviously people love to talk. People love to feel, like you said, they love to feel special. They love to feel celebrities, they love to feel, you know, unique. And most people are not famous, they're not real celebrities. But if I, I consider them celebrities and I, you know, mention, mention their name and I remember the information they, they provide me last meeting and, and I, and I'm interested in them so they, they enjoy working with me so will pay me more and they will invite me to the house and they will give me the job and not to my competitors because of these, you know, small details. Small details that create big results.

Yeah. This is why, you know, a podcast like this, we can, we can share a whole bunch, right? There's a whole. I think this is one of those podcasts that could be, I don't know, a lifetime. Like we could talk forever about all the different nuance and everything that goes on in the sales process and how to master those things and. But the biggest thing that I really try to get across to people is this person called you with what they believed was a need or a symptom. I like how you related it to kind of being a doctor, right? You have this symptom that says, I need a repair on this thing, whatever it might be. Well, that's great, but let's ask some questions. Let's ask a few questions to figure out why do you believe that this is how things should go with this particular repair when there are other options to that. And I need to ask a bunch of questions to help you solve that problem as well as possible. And I actually, I'm pretty forthright about that. I'm like, hey, I want to ask you a bunch of questions because I want to deliver. There's so many options. I don't want to deliver all these options. It just makes it very hard to make a decision. I would like to get it down to two or three things for you to choose from. So let's find out which ones are the one you want. And so I ask a bunch of questions, and they're not, mostly not about the products, to be honest with you. Like, it could be like, what kind of contractor are you looking for? Have you ever worked with a contractor before? What was that experience like? And I'm looking for that story. I'm looking for them to tell me something about that experience. Most of us, whenever you ask somebody, like, how was your experience with a contractor? Most of us have had a bad experience. That's the one we always remember. We remember the bad ones. We don't always remember the good ones unless they were exceptional. And so they tell you exactly what you need to know. Well, they didn't communicate. They didn't show up on time. They overcharged me. All these different things. So whenever you actually get to the presentation part or demo part of what you do, you're able to solve those problems, specifically knowing what the issue was for them. They had a problem. Here's the solution to solve that problem. So how does getting somebody to know like and trust you make them buy?

Okay, this is the where call to action enters. You know, we talked about, you know, getting to know you. Create. Create a great content. You know, by the way, the most viral content from my experience, is three things. First of all, stories, success stories of failure, stories, you know, talk about you like, like you mentioned earlier that you talk about the mistakes you did back, back Back in the days. So stories about your resume, you know, success stories or or you know, failure stories. This is one Number two is a actual stories that happens in the news. You know, for example, there is now Covid. So is this time we're now in quarantine. Is this good time to fix your your house or not? Okay, or there is a depression now this is now the time to to move to move a house or not. Or to repair the kitchen or to buy a new kitchen or something like that. So address subjects or topics that people already already talking about. And. And the third one is the practical tips. Practical tips. For example, if something is broken, how to fix it or what is the best material you can you can choose to to fix something or Etc. Practical tips. This is how do you get the. No, like trust. So the people get to know you and people like you and people trust you. And now in order for them to die, you need to. To have a call to action, you need to offer them something. So many people, you know, nobody teaches us how to do it, but many people, they have a great meeting with a client and then they explain to the client everything. And maybe the client, it does everything by himself or turn into their competitors and ask them for a price quote or something like that. But call to action is, is at the end of every conversation. Every, you know, podcast, every video, every post, every newsletter, you need to have a call to action. You need to tell people exactly what you needed to do. If it's a. It's. If it's signed the contract, this is the contract, let's go over it and then you sign. If it's, you know, make, you know, like. And share my post, then please share my post. Ask them to share the post. If it's something like, like leave your details here and we'll get get back to you. So leave your details now here. You know, they are the research. I also write, also deal with marketing writing and I write scripts and I write websites for, for big companies worldwide. So the, the amazing research is that if, for example I sell a conference and I have, you know, there is the press button in the landing page. So if I say for more details about the conference, I will have a certain conversion rate. Let's say 20%. Okay. And if I, if I write for more details about the conference, press here. Okay? And then I have 1.2 more. Let's say if we have 20%, then I have 24% conversion rate. Okay, 4% more. And if I write for more details about the conference Press here now. And I add the exclamation mark. Then. Now we have 28% conversion rate. Now the same action. Now, people are not stupid. People just follow orders. You know, you told them, click here now. They click here now. Okay, so. So I say at the end of each conversation, tell people exactly what you need to do. You need to prepare before the meeting. You know, I work with lots of speakers and I help them write, for example, their lectures. And one of the first questions I ask is, what is the purpose of the lecture? What do the best case scenario, people will love you. What do you want people to do after the lecture? What is the best case scenario? And most people, they didn't think about it till this moment. They say, okay, wow, okay, let's talk about it. And I say, no, this is the first question because you need to prepare all the lecture. You take the beginning and then you start preparing the lecture according to what you want people to do or to learn at the end. So call to action is a very good tool. People maybe are a little bit afraid to. To offer or afraid to approach and afraid of, you know, objections like it's too pricey for me or not now, something that. But you need to offer people, especially if you did the mechanism of no, like trust buy and it's a soft sale, then obviously, you know, the client is now interested in you. And people we talked about, they prefer experts, so make the offer and then more, more likely to buy.

That's, that's really. You're talking about this concept of the ask, right? So asking somebody for the sale, you've done all this other stuff and it was wonderful. And then you didn't ask for the sale. They've actually done studies on this and, you know, over large groups of salespeople, and on average, about 43% of the time we don't ask for the sale. We did all this stuff. We don't even ask. And I think that's because there's a psychological thing going on there, that there's some fear, right? Like fear of asking somebody for money or whatever it is. I don't ever look at, like, I'm asking somebody for money. I'm asking for somebody, somebody for an investment. I created some value. You're going to invest in it, you're going to get a return on it. And so I use that term a lot. But I think the thing that they don't practice is the transition. How do you transition from demo of whatever it is that you're doing to the actual sale itself? And so like in contractor sales, it might be something like, other than price or affordability, is there anything would be standing in our way of getting you on the production schedule today and knowing that thing and having it practice repeated, almost scripted so that you are very comfortable doing it and having a, you know, it doesn't have to be those exact words I just shared. But knowing that you need to transition from demo to asking, and I want to eliminate any other possibility there might be out there, I see a lot of people go, are there any other questions you might have before I can share the investment with you? Now you want to get all those objections out of the way to say, okay, I got all the information I need. Now I'm going to weigh the price versus the value that you just shared with me. I think so many people fail right there just because they don't know how to make that transition. Do you see that often in.

Yes, I also, Yes, I also see it. And also the people are afraid of the, you know, objections or questions. But I say all the time that objections or questions are part of the conversation. So it's not like we talked a nice conversation and now we start selling stuff and people will, you know, object us and people will, will say, well, it's too pricey for me and I don't know what to answer. Something like that. So first of all, you need to understand it's part of the conversation. Second of all, it's a good thing because if people object, then it means, it means that we are now negotiating, you know, or they, they are hesitating now, they're sitting on the fence, I call it. So, so I would like to move it to the other side of the fence to become a, you know, buy to buy, you know, paying customers. So it's good thing that they ask me questions because the opposite is that I will conclude my conversation and say, okay, thank you, keep in touch, but not too much, you know, so, so no, it's good.

They're telling you they want it.

Yeah, they want it. And then, and then we start the negotiation is part of the conversation. And again, we talked about earlier, sell the problem before the solution. So if I focus on the problems and not about the technical aspects of the, you know, of the, you know, of the work, then, then it's more. They more likely buy because they're not buying, you know, my work. They are buying their fix. The fix of their problems, you know. So if my problem is that I would like to brand myself as better, you know, a business person in the neighborhood. So I would like a bigger house or a nicer house. And I envy my. In my neighbor. Each time I come home, then this is something, in a way, emotional. Then it's not about just you make this floor, that flow. It's about something I would like to feel whenever I come to my house. So I'm willing to pay more for this feeling because I'm not paying about the pay for the flow and paying for the feeling. So the more information we have on the client, the more likely you can. You can charge them, you can. You can speak with them about the price and it's not too uncomfortable.

Yeah, that's. That's really good because we kind of teach this concept of defeating objections before you ever get to the transition. And so you're asking lots of questions to identify possible objections, bring them out in the open, handle them. Before you ever get to that question of, hey, if. Is there anything else that we need to consider before I share with you the investment for this amazing thing that you're getting. When you get to that part, then it's negotiating. And I thought that was really brilliant of you, by the way, because that's what they're telling you now. It's negotiation and consideration. So they are actually considering. They're saying, yes, I kind of like what this guy's saying. And now I have an objection because I am now in this mode of trying to get it for the best price I possibly can or best conditions, you know, the timing of it. There's all kinds of different reasons why people would object. Have you noticed when it comes to objections, that why people may struggle with handling those.

Yeah, first of all, first of all, we said earlier that, that nobody teaches us how to sell, you know, how to business, how to handle money, how to handle business, how to handle relationship. So nobody taught us. It's not like in, you know, in kindergarten, you know, high school, we thought we learned about the negotiation, you know, so. So people don't know these basic skills. They can be great contractor contractors, but sometimes if they feel nervous or feel, you know, anxious or feel, you know, the economy is not that great, they. They feel that they don't know how to handle with objections. Like, it's too pricey for me. So immediately they give discount or immediately they avoid conflict or something like that. But negotiation is, you know, two parties. Two parties trying to get to the. To the best result. And again, if you. If you'd like a healthy business or to grow your business, you need to, you know, to raise your prices. You need to, if you get, you, you have you get good, good quality of, of work, then you ask, you need to ask for higher prices and you need to, to talk about the prices with confidence and you need to explain why you worth so much. And we talked about branding. Then you know, if I, if I'm an expert, then people are willing to pay more. So if people feel that they are not experts or they would like to avoid conflict, then and, and the customer is the king, you know, they will provide the customer whatever he needs. But it's not a good business model because then by the way, the more the client pays is more satisfied. So if I get a discount, usually I expect the client to be, you know, to, to admire it, you know, to, to, to honor me or something. But, but it's usually the opposite. You know, the client will pay less and he will have more complaints because this is the typical guy. So, so I, I will looking for the clients that will pay me more and be and, and respect me more and respect not only my, my personal personality but also my professional demands. You know, because I'm expert. You know, if you come to a doctor, for example, the doctor says well we need to operate you here and here in the hand. You don't start saying well doctor, I also consult with another doctor, Dr. Google and I think I read an article. I think you should operate me here and here. You know, immediately the, the, the experts have spoken and you say yes. So every contractor need needs to, to have the same approach. I'm an expert. I know what, what to do. I understand your problem. I've been doing it for many years or many for me many more customers. You, you let me do my job. I do great job for you that solves your needs on problems. But this is my fee and I don't give discounts. This is my fee. I'm a brand, I'm an expert. You know, to. You don't need to be famous to have a brand mentality.

So let me see if I can wrap this up. Well, I think so. If we know that humans are all the same, they're after four very common things. Love, health, wealth and happiness.

Yes.

Then if we can become an expert in what we do, whatever that may be. Knowing that thing about human beings, we can get them to know like and trust us. If they do, they'll buy from us. We'll make them buy. Is that a fair understanding of how this gets.

They are more likely to buy because you know, in sales there is a conversion rate. No, there is not, no, no scenario with 100% conversion rate or 80% or 60%. But if, for example, today a contractor, you know, before this chapter, he goes to 10 meetings and just one out of 10, he gets the job. Now two or three out of 10, he will get the job. Now we, you know, his salary is twice more because of some tips that he heard now. So, so conversion rate. You always try to be the best version of yourself. You always try to, to get better and to get your clients better and to understand their problems better. And as long as you do that, then you, you increase your, your income.

Yeah, I really like this concept of consistent improvement. So I'm consistent all the time. I'm staying with something and I'm persevering through all the challenges and the hard stuff, and I'm trying to do it as fast as I can, but I'm not trying to skip steps either. By that consistency, I start to become more known. And so people know who I am, they hopefully start to like me. If they don't, they avoid me, which is great because that's not my client anyway. And if I can actually come across as that expert, they'll likely buy from me. And the more of an expert I become, the more polished I become in my skills as a salesperson, the better I can handle objections and know what those answers are. Takes a lot of practice and consistency in that practice as well. About, like, if there's one thing I've learned in the last 10 years, the more consistent I am to being disciplined about an endeavor, the more likely it is to actually happen. We all look for this easy button, right?

And then, and then people, then people say, wow, how lucky is. But they don't see the lab hours, they don't see, they don't see the money you spent at the time you spent, the energy you spent. For example, this podcast, you know, you, you, when you started the podcast, I, I guess now you have much more listeners of viewers than the first sub chapter, right? But because the market enjoys, you know, persistency and know, the authenticity. Authenticity. So if you're authentic and persistent, you know, and more chapter. More chapter. And you get better each time and you have more crowd each time and they tell their friends it's viral marketing, then the end of the day, people, more people like you and trust you as an expert and, and you get better and, and you decided to have a podcast. So obviously you didn't do it before, but now you are an expert in, in, you know, hosting podcast or even delivering the technical aspects of podcast. Right.

I mean, I need to be an expert on the technical side just to make sure I don't have a start like we had this morning. So. But you're right, you know, I already had some awareness of who I was and our coaching and stuff because I started the podcast four years ago. So I've been coaching for six years. So when we first put it out, you know, we got a couple hundred downloads and stuff like that. But now after four years, we're getting a couple thousand downloads and people watching on YouTube and sharing it out all over the place and people approaching us to be on our podcast. So I really appreciate that part of it as well. But it wouldn't, it didn't happen for those first six months or the first year or even first year and a half. But now it's starting to be one of those things where it's pretty consistent in what the results they are that come from it. And that's with anything and everything I think we, we do in life. So I do have another question because I noticed this whenever I was looking at into you, you were in debate. Was that in university or. And it was in university.

Yes.

You finished third in the world.

Yes, yes, there were, there were lots of, there is lots of world world championships and the European Championship, even Israel. So we, we compete in Europe and I was number three in the world in 2002 in a world championship of debate in South Africa. It happened. And yes, I also reached the semifinals of, of the European Championship and also again I, I had hundreds of debates each year and I developed myself all the time and I was very good at it. But, but for me I, I love talking, but I wasn't maybe accurate, you know, or structured. So the debate taught me how to be structured. So also I, I had a, how the good experience with it and then I opened my business because of the debate, because I understand my mission to help other people talk and how do people sell and how do people market. And I understand that the debate teaches you many, many practical tools that most people, they don't know because they don't participate in debate competitions. But I thought I said if I will take the principles of the debate and I know, let's say identified it to, to what for the day to day use. Okay, then I can teach these principles for every marketer, every constructor, every realtor, every startup. This is what they do for the last 20 years.

Yeah. So over here in the US there's debate class in high school. I did take it, but it was what we call an elective. You could choose to take it or not, right? I think everybody should have to.

I agree.

But that was where it ended. I didn't even know that there was like debate at college. Nobody approached me with it or told me about it or anything. I'm sure there was a debate team or that type of thing now. So the next question I have is like, are there debate groups for old people like us?

Yes, the private market offers debate groups. By the way, when I was in college, I debated against Harvard, against Yale, in the worldwide competitions, you know, against Cambridge and Oxford, etc. It was a great privilege for me as an Israeli to, to meet this kind of level and it proved me a lot. So, yes, today there are, there are companies that provide, you know, debated. First of all, you can have a debate to improve your debate skills one on one with people. But there are several debate clubs for grown ups, you know, for, for just people who would like to debate the situation. Even, even like you see a debate, a political debate, you know, where Trump versus Biden or something like that. So, so they are gathering that they're doing similar debates. And I know that in the United States is very strong the debate. And I recommend everyone to, you know, to improve their public speaking abilities and debate abilities because it's not about the debate, it's about our ability to speak better, you know, to organize our message, to speak, to have a maximum message in a minimal time frame. Because today people, they have short time to listen to us, you know, so to deliver a speech, you elevate your speech, you know, in less than a minute to explain why you are not your competitors. All of these principles are the same in the debate. So obviously I, you know, I feel, by the way, I have also articles in my website, Dr. Persuasion.com many articles about the debate, about public speaking. You can, you can reach my website and read articles and see videos and I explain what to do. Obviously you will, you do too.

That, that's really awesome. So I have all kinds of questions about presidential debates for you, but I think I'll keep them off. I try to stay away from politics. Although I would say, hey, if you finish serving more, why don't you come over here and run for president? Because I think you could beat them and they, they're not that good.

One of the reason, as an outsider, one of the reason that you, I think you are the, the biggest and best democracy in the world is because you have free debates for, for the presidency with, you know, a prime time on all the channels you know dozens of millions they watch it so so it's a great democratic procedure I don't care what what you say about the candidates but but you know the culture the ecosystem of the data in United States is is amazing so this is why you are the biggest and most strong democracy worldwide I agree with you.

There I just wish they would be a little bit higher quality but but they're speaking to their audience too that's.

What to the base to the base.

Right yeah you're like hey I don't really like how they're going about doing what they're doing but they're going to the mass majority and I may not be in so that's that's one of those things I have to be open to and consider which is a little.

Frustrating you don't need everyone to like you in order to be a president or in order to have a successful business you just need your base you know you to want.