Challenging the Status Quo: Elinor Moshe on Building a Powerful Brand in a Male-Dominated Industry

Hello and welcome to this episode of The Unnoticed Entrepreneur, or should I say good day, because we're going to Melbourne to meet a lady called the Construction Coach, Eleanor Moshe. Welcoming you to the show. Thanks for joining us in Melbourne.

My pleasure and privilege to be here and to get to speak on one of the most important aspects of entrepreneurship, which is getting noticed.

And you've done a brilliant job, uh, because you've got bestselling books, 3 of them, and you've got your own podcast. You built a brand from a very young age, um, in a male-dominated industry. We're going to talk about how you've built a brand, but you haven't relied on being a woman in a male industry. So you've been a bit, you know, counter there. And so tell us about you first, and let's talk about how you've managed to build a brand in quite a male-dominated industry, quite a male-dominated country as well. It's not famous for being liberal. Australia, is it? So tell us about you.

Defying the status quo and standing out has always been my prerogative, but society is there to tell you otherwise, that you must fit into certain boxes and play certain roles. And for a very long time in my corporate career in construction, I worked hard to diminish myself, to mute myself, to make myself weak And I got to a point in my career where I was all of that. And I had the turning point where I realized this can't be it. There is more that I am here to experience. There is much more that is possible in my own career. And in order to execute that and bring my vision into fruition, I knew that I could not be positioned like the rest. sound like the rest, look like the rest, because I had no aspiration and I still do not have the ambition to achieve the results like the rest. And for me to do that required to take unconventional action in unconventional frontiers. And I did not do it alone. It was through divine intervention that I met my mentor, Ron Malhotra, who showed me what the third model of having a career is, which is thought leadership, which we can discuss in continuity. But to pioneer the frontier, which is being Australia's first construction coach, has been an incredible journey and marrying 2 worlds that I do love, which is construction and that of building a powerhouse mindset and entrepreneurial skillset.

I don't know, so articulately put. And now you've thrown in a number of things there. You've talked about being Australia's first construction coach. And it is interesting because from an entrepreneur and sort of niche perspective, I am going to ask the elephant in the room. You didn't say the world's first female coach in construction, which might have been the obvious route to go. Tell us why you haven't done that, because from a positioning point of view, you've kind of gone sort of a bit counterintuitive. I'm really interested in why you've done that.

Most people who want to enter into the space and I guess serve a female demographic in the industry, how would they position themselves? I help women, I fix women. We've heard it all before. And to go against the mainstream narrative, which I fundamentally do not concur with because I stopped parroting that narrative early on in my— midway throughout my career, I wouldn't say early on. And I realized that as soon as I put it down, it wasn't serving me. I got to reflect and realize that this narrative is parroting me being a statistic. I have no interest becoming a statistic. I'm here to become an exception, not the rule. And that's what started the journey of realizing, look, I don't want to position myself like everyone else because I can't sound like everyone else if I've heard it before, I've seen it before. And if I was a prospect making a decision between A, B, and C, why would I go with someone that feels like I already know it all, I've heard it all? And it was, of course, through the strategic advice of my mentor who said that if you want to stand out in that arena, you don't go straight into the center of the crowd and start saying your message. You find your own corner, you find your own podium. That's where you speak from and the right people will come to you. And that's exactly what happened.

I love that. And you've been sort of, if you like, countercultural and A lesser mentor would have put you down a more traditional or conventional route, right?

100%.

And so that's a credit to your mentor that he had the vision and the insight to give you that guidance. Fantastic. So Eleanor, you decided not to go down the conventional route. Brilliant. You've mentioned thought leadership as your alternative strategy. I'd love for you to share with us what that means and how you've implemented that.

The best definition that I've heard is that of my mentor, Ron Malhotra, who is a world-class thought leadership mentor. And that is someone who is known for what they know because what they know makes a difference. But despite all the good intentions and despite coming with all of us having buckets of talent, if we're not primely positioned and packaged in a way that provides the message-to-market match, then you will get lost. You will simply get lost in a crowded market. It was busy when I started, and I'm sure, Jim, you would agree, it's getting noisier now. Everyone, you know, how do most people come out of the gate in this world? They wake up one morning, change their LinkedIn profile, put a pitch, and start spamming people with pseudo-value, and their message is all over the place. They chop and change. They're a chameleon in the marketplace, and people fundamentally will not trust chameleons in the marketplace. So being able to be positioned based on all of who you are, and that's why in the thought leadership model of entrepreneurship, there is so much backend work that happens. It's unseen. It's the shadow work. It's the inner work. Because if I don't know who I am, I'm not in a position to put myself out there for you to make a decision if Eleanor is a leader that I would like to get behind, or at least let's see what she has to say. And that's the first part of differentiating because no one can copy my energetic signature. No one can copy the full alchemy of Eleanor Mosher. They can try, but no one will. ever be me in the same instance that no one will ever be Jim James. We might have similarities, we'll have parallels, there might be different aspects which are similar, but the totality of all of us cannot be duplicated. And it was positioning myself in that way based on, this is me first. I don't even have a solution for you. I don't have an offer. I have no program. You don't even know what business I run, but this is me. And you can make a decision on that basis. And it is that which is the core of thought leadership and creates a world of opportunity and visibility, which I know we will continue talking about.

And I know you've mentioned a number of things in there, and you've also talked about being out there even though you don't know what you're going to sell or what you're going to offer. Which is a little, again, counter sort of intuitive to the go and ask people what they want and then build it for them. So how are you reconciling, again, a slightly unconventional— actually, let's say it diametrically opposed view to what people are saying in the marketplace?

You right now, we're having this conversation, people listening, they don't know what suite of products or services I have, they'll either resonate with my beliefs, my value, this is what I stand for, my character, then they'll go and investigate. People fundamentally want to understand that part of you first. They will connect to you on such a deep level. And that's what this model of entrepreneurship affords, is to connect to someone's heart set first. Once you have the ability to connect with their heart, not just their intellectual mind, which is, you have a problem, I have a solution, then you really start building that community. You start building that presence. You start building people. You're nurturing them for a very long time before you even ask anything of them. And you're right, it is counterintuitive because you start talking about the problems that they're facing. But before anyone would believe that I have a solution, I need to demonstrate that I understand the problem first. I have to become a problems expert first, and I have to know the problem well because I've experienced it or I've done immense amounts of research. In my case, it was both. But then what happens, people start reaching out to you. And it's not that I have— this is a ready-made product, which is a program on the shelf. It's, okay, Jim, what do you need? What is it that is happening in your world? What is the root cause? of why that's happening in your world. If I am in a position to mentor you, we can explore what that looks like. But until that point in time, I need to know what you want to achieve. And that's what you mentioned beforehand was having a mentor that doesn't put you in a box and sticks a label and then puts you out to market is imperative. So it is actually quite a different process even of prospecting.

And it does sound also, um, that it's not so much the counter, uh, intuitive, it's just about the process. It's about which comes first, Eleanor. It sounds though, you know, by defining yourself and sharing of yourself in an open and genuine way, it's kind of filtering who you attract, right? Uh, and then you're listening to them as opposed to listening without having established your own authenticity in the market. Would that, would that be one way of looking at that?

Definitely. I mean, if everyone, you know, we're all playing a game here, we're all in business. There is of course the end aspect of commercialization, but putting that aside, you want to be building a business with people who— not just a business, a community around people who will take value. And this isn't to say that, you know, people who don't take value or are diametrically opposed to me shouldn't be in my community. Please, I love an intellectual spur and whatnot. But when I put out that I lean more towards being ambitious and I'm not the casual person, then if someone is quite casual and lax, I'm not your person. Don't come to me. Don't waste your time. Don't waste my time. We're not going to get along. I'll say something and you'll be offended. Whereas it's More in your best interest, but you won't see it that way. So it is a major filtration process, but it is that deep level of authenticity which you're projecting, which you cut yourself out from a sea of sameness and a sea of people who fundamentally don't know themselves. Because to get to know yourself on such a deep energetic level, it's years.

Yeah, and, and sometimes I wonder whether people either don't know themselves or they're so desperate to fit in, uh, because conformity gets its rewards as well, doesn't it, Eleanor? Um, but you've got many rewards— 3 books, bestsellers, podcast. Tell us about how you've been sort of turning that mindset and that philosophy of thought leadership and authenticity Into tangible products that people can listen to, watch, pick up, and read.

That's what you said there is really, you have to turn into a tangible asset, but that can only be done once you know who you are, what you stand for, who am I serving, why am I here, what do I have to say? We don't start with the backend of it. And look, it happens where sometimes, yes, people launch a podcast and they've hit the nail on the head. But there are people who launch and they're wondering, well, I can't even get to 1,000 downloads. Who are you speaking to? What is that major point of differentiation that no one else is speaking about? When I started my podcast, this was in March 2020, and I still have the spreadsheet. There were 46 construction podcasts, many of which weren't running. The ones that were running were about equipment and rentals and trade, and there were none which focused on the people behind the projects. And as soon as I realized, I needed to quickly move and also think about the type of guest which I want to interview as well. So, it was selectively put together and it is still one of the longest-running podcasts. This is in year 4, but I've constantly sought to differentiate that, even the message. It's a non-construction construction podcast. I don't talk to you about concrete. I don't care. I don't talk about precast. That's not my area of expertise. So being able to provide something very different and get into the right space, which is in between people's ears, and deliver that value was a great point of differentiation. And I'm very glad I started when I did because right now it is a much busier marketplace for podcasts, but it was an asset which built onto itself and in a time when in Melbourne people were locked down. I know my episodes joined many people on their Sunday morning breakfast or walks. Yes. In terms of the books as well, that's an extension of me. It's my philosophy given to you. Sample it. Don't buy the whole thing. And you can apply this. You never have to even speak to me, but I want to serve you and enable you to have the transformation that I have. And putting myself out there in book format, the first being Constructing Your Career, was very raw. And you go through the process intellectually of publishing a book, and then all of a sudden you're thinking someone's actually sitting there and reading this. And one of the best feedback posts that I got was someone came home from work, 11 o'clock at night, they finished their shift, They were up till 5:00 AM reading Constructing Your Career and they posted about it on LinkedIn. And there were similar types of feedback where people said, this is the book that I wish I had. And this is the book I wish I had. And it's done immense aspects for visibility because A, look, no one throws out a book. B, people can sample you before they want to experience you more. And even if that's where our journey respectively ends with a book or a podcast, I'm appreciative that people took the time to choose my books out of all the books that are available. Leadership in Construction was one done taking the essence of leadership principles from real-time exemplary leaders and industry titans in the industry to upgrade the quite theoretical and outdated narrative. And that was also a first because in construction, such a book hadn't been produced. And then Young Gun is the crowning jewel.

And so Young Gun is for the next generation of people in the construction industry. Is that right then, Helena? So now you're playing a role of bringing in the next generation.

I went back to the construction office after spending years on site, and we forget what the office is like. And it didn't make sense to me. And I saw fragments of this on site. Didn't make sense that people would come into the industry and I would know them from before they started through community events, whatever the avenue was. They would have this roaring ambition. I'm going to change the world. I'm going to have it all. And then they get into the industry and they can't even— they whisper. They whisper. They don't even want to be heard. They sit there static and mute in front of their computer. Where did it all go? And that is the intensity of mediocrity that they face. Now, if that happens across the board, we can all pack our bags and go home because there will be nothing to show for after all of these inputs in the industry. And I realize there is something fundamentally broken in how ambition is diluted and dispersed in the industry. Right. So protecting and nurturing the ambition and enabling them to speak the language of ambition and achievement is imperative.

Wonderful. And if this was a coaching podcast, I'd love to take you down that track. But, you know, I'm going to bring you back to the getting noticed part, Elena, because as valuable as it is what you're doing, I'm really trying to, you know, focus on this particular dimension of it. You've created great content. We've got a content machine. Can you just share with us how you're doing that? You're spending Nights Up Writing, you're doing Addictaphone. Give us the secret to your success. How are you constructing your content? I can't believe I have to take so long to put constructing in here as a pun.

First, I had to come with the mindset piece. People have reservations. What will people say? What will people think? I get feedback loops of professionals in the office who complain about my podcast. I mean, if that— not my podcast, my content. She's always online. She's always this. If that's what they're doing during work hours, we have a whole different conversation at hand. First, it's being comfortable from a mindset perspective that you're not— not everyone is going to agree with you. You're not here to be a vanilla brand. Everyone— no one really likes vanilla, but no one hates it. But you're not really going to go out of your way for vanilla. It's okay. Look, I'm not going to remember it, but you will remember that caramel or that That incredible ice cream that you've had is the analogy that my mentor shares. And that's really what content is about first. It's knowing that I'm not here to serve everyone. I am here to present, this is who I am. And I'm here to— I have a duty. I'm duty-bound first to change your thoughts, to enable you to investigate your own belief system on my given arena, which is careers in construction. But then from a generation perspective, it does take a bit of time to get your own content machine running. It's like an engine. It starts, it stops. Research, reflection of your own thinking and dissecting your own processes and your own experiences. And then putting that in, could be carousel format, story format. I record everything, every question that I get asked. Eleanor, how do I do this? How do I do that? When I'm having a discovery call, when prospects are telling me their pain in their own words, I feed that straight back into content and you put it with a hook. Do you relate to this? 90% of people in the industry relate to this. So after a while, content actually gets served to you and I have the, you know, we package it and we keep on talking about it or we'll take something that someone says. Why do they say it? What makes them say it? It's diluting— sorry, not diluting, it's dissecting my own experiences. What's important to me? What's not? And then being able to generate that in an interesting manner. If I don't get engagement, it's not anyone's fault, it's mine. My content to them is not worthwhile of their attention. We're in the attention market. That's what we're doing with content. And that means planning photoshoots, having curated photoshoots, paying for venues, paying for photographers, paying for graphic designers. I use Canva a lot and a virtual assistant who runs a lot of that backend scheduling. But it is about maintaining relevancy. And this is the thing with content relevancy, but also in order to, to position yourself, you need to be able to talk about your micro niche literally in, in 365 different ways, which is one post a day.

Yep.

Times that by 2, 720 different ways to speak about your one niche. And that's also where I got my positioning from, is there was no confusion as to who Eleanor is, what she does, what she stands for. She's not the women entrepreneurial coach. She's not many things. This is what she does. But if it wasn't for content, we would not be having this conversation. If it wasn't for content, my bank account would reflect that. If it wasn't for content, even people who will never work with me come to an event, no problem. But if they've taken value from anything I've produced and that's seeded even a different thought, even if that seed will only flourish in 5 years' time, Then it's important to have produced that piece of content.

That's wonderful. You know, I've got to start to wrap us up now. One thing that you would say hasn't worked, one piece of advice about what not to do as an entrepreneur when it comes to visibility.

To not be consistent. I know people have heard that before, but to show up online regardless of your emotional state. Your audience doesn't care if you're having a bad day. They don't care if you're having a spiritual awakening. Or a breakthrough or a breakdown. You made them a promise and you are duty-bound as a leader to serve. And if you do not show up and deliver on that, they're going to go somewhere else. And that's not on them. That is on you. Of course, there are many mistakes, which is a whole other topic onto itself. But playing a short-term game is where people fall over. They want to get the benefits that come with visibility. Be prepared to play a 7 to 10 year game.

Eleanor Mosher, thank you so much for playing, well, 20 minutes, uh, with me to explain a huge amount of content and, and ideas. If you want to find out more about you, how can they do that?

I'm Eleanor Mosher on LinkedIn and @theeleanormosher on Instagram.

Wonderful. And we've also, of course, going to put Eleanor's details in the show notes as always. Eleanor, thank you so much for joining and constructing— I've got to keep using that somehow— Constructing with me a fantastic conversation today about getting noticed.

My pleasure and privilege. More visibility to everyone involved.

Absolutely. And you've heard from Eleanor how to do that through thought leadership, being a little bit counterintuitive, but then being entirely authentic and consistent with that message and yourself. So thank you so much for listening to this episode of The Unnoticed Entrepreneur with me here, Jim James, and Eleanor in Melbourne. Australia. And if you've enjoyed it, do please share this with a fellow entrepreneur and rate and review the show on the player of your choice. It really, really helps. Until we meet again, just encourage you to keep on communicating. Thanks for listening.