Engage more audience and attract more leads with a social object or subject: with Dan Kirby of Te...

Hello and welcome to this episode of The Unnoticed Entrepreneur with me, Jim James. And today we are going to Bakewell in Derbyshire, home of the famous cakes, to talk to Dan Kirby, who is the co-founder and CEO of a company called The Tech Department. And we're going to talk about social objects. Dan, welcome to the show.

Well, I'm really pleased to be here and excited to have the conversation.

Well, Dan, you know, you've shared with us about social objects, and we're going to talk about how an entrepreneur can use social objects as a way to start conversations and to build a brand and get noticed without really using any money, but using some creativity. Dan, take us away. Tell us about social objects and how they can be a core part of someone's branding and marketing activities.

Well, thank you for the opportunity to do it because social objects is my thing. I've stolen gratuitously this concept from a chap called Hugh MacLeod, who's quite famous online for his cartoons. He's a cartoonist avatar called Gaping Void. He's used a lot now in people's presentations a lot. Joe Polish from Genius Network uses his artwork a lot. But HumorCloud's been around for a while, and many years ago, maybe even 8 or 9 years ago, I read about this concept of social objects and how you use it, how they are the future of marketing, is his opinion. So what a social object is, it's like a bottle of wine or a new iPhone. It's an object or a thing that you use to spark a conversation with somebody else. All right? And in a world of social media where networking and online is really The thing, a social object is a way of you being able to connect with people without it being about what you're selling or specifically you. So it's a third-party element or object or thing that allows you to build a relationship with somebody that completely just through the front door. So it's a lateral way of building relationship. So in the same way as if you met a stranger and you had the, or they had the latest iPhone, you could have a conversation with them about the iPhone. And you could build a relationship through that and then they will be open to listen to your sales proposition or your marketing message.

Wonderful. So this social object, what a lovely way of terming what could be, if you say, sort of a third-party connector really. Stan, can you tell us some, you know, examples, practical examples? You're an entrepreneur yourself. How have you used social objects or seen them be used successfully?

Well, we've used them twice in my business. So I run a technology company called The Tech Department and we're like a plug-in tech team for startups. But we've kind of over the years tried to sort of work out ways of marketing because we have quite a complicated sales process. It's a very relationship-led thing. It's not an easy thing to sort of sell online. We can't really run Google Ads for what we do. Often people aren't looking for it or searching for it. So the first iteration of us applying the social object concept was an event series we created about, well, it was probably 8 years ago now, actually. And we thought, well, why don't we create an event that was a bit more different than the standard service agency or marketing agency event. And we created something called The Tech Off. And The Tech Off's name came from a sort of process that always used to happen when we started working with a client where an IT guy and our development team would have a big sort of set-to and we'd call it a tech off internally, like a joke. And so The Tech Off was instead of doing a standard agency event where everybody talks about insights and case studies and how great they are. We said, well, why don't we get 5 or 6 different really good speakers and force them to speak for 5 minutes each so they have to cut to the chase. And then the crowd and the audience chooses who wins the Tech Off, and then they get a wrestling belt and the invitation to come back and defend their title at the next event. So that was the concept. And eventually this thing became known around London and indeed all over the world as the love child of TED Talks and WWE wrestling. And we went from the first event had about 30 people, of which 20 of them were probably employed in some way by the tech department. But within a year, we had 600 people in a nightclub in East London, 500 of whom had bought tickets, nightclub volume Rocky music, confetti cannons, strobe lights, and 2 professional wrestlers who were actually had a comedy act on the side who were our security. And if you went over the 5 minutes, a bell rang and you were literally thrown off stage. By the security. So there was a high-pressure environment for our speakers. And the point being, it got— that was our social object. So we were, at the time, we're working with creative people, a lot of them in East London. So we used that as a way of hosting an event, which became something of a cultural event in East London. There was literally queues around the block for our events as a way of— we were the people hosting the party, we were the people hosting the speakers. And that was a social object, a way of starting conversations, of bonding with people, of having something to talk about, which wasn't my business and its proposition, but got us into that Dan, I love that idea.

And it sounds as though your tech off almost started to eclipse the tech department. So why don't you just also then share with us from a lead gen or corporate branding perspective, how did you leverage the tech off into more leads? Because presumably you've had to put some money in at the beginning to this social object to get it to have some life of its own.

Yeah, it's a good question because The thing we got wrong with the Tech Off as a social object was there was a kind of— it was a lot of fun and it was great at building relationships, but then the company evolved, but the Tech Off was this sort of machine that was operating on its own logic. And so, there was a misalignment of the strategy of the business and the event. And the event was amazingly successful. I mean, we were invited to take it to South by Southwest in Austin, Texas. And then eventually, it's been made into a movie pilot.

Wow.

By a very award-winning film director based on what we were doing, because it's kind of, he was totally mad. So on one level, it worked great to build fame, right? So I won loads of awards, probably as a direct result of being seen to be an ambassador for the tech industry around the world, right? Known all over the world, built lots of great relationships. But then as a lead gen thing, it probably started to lose its ability, almost the bigger it got, the less good it was as a lead gen thing. And so there's a kind of paradox in the middle of that. So it was very good at creating conversation, but not necessarily with the right people. In our defense, the strategy of the business evolved during that time. But what was interesting was it was arguably a distraction from the main business. And it led to a period of a time in 2017 where we had a very, very bad year and actually lost a lot of money. And we sort of carried on doing the event through that time, but sort of segued into sort of doing other marketing activity in 2018. So 2017 was a really bad year. But what was interesting is the social object concept never lost its resonance with us. We always knew it was a good idea. So what we've done now is taken the lessons from the tech off and actually the lessons from our terrible year in 2017, because I think the 2 things were probably interrelated, and applied it to a new social object, which is much, much more aligned to our business proposition, and which is a podcast which I run, I host, and which kind of basically building on the story of me blowing up my business in 2017. I now have a podcast called Honey, I Blew Up the Business. And that itself is a social object.

I love that. And I love that title as well, Honey, I Blew Up the Business. But you raise a really good point about the need to align your social object. I created the British Motorsport Festival in China. And in a way, that became a financial burden, although it had its own business model. It was quite separate to the business model of importing and selling cars. It was a showcase for multiple British brands in China. With the podcast though, Dan, and you've created that as a social object, how are you reconciling, if you like, the investment that you put into that versus the time that you could be spending on the tech department? Because there's an opportunity cost, isn't there, to developing a social object?

Yeah, that's quite right. And by the way, just, I think it's quite important to state as my take on social objects, a social object isn't your new website and it's not your new product per se, or your new hire or your new COO, right? That's not a social object. That's an interesting piece of information that you can maybe put out into the world. And that's really great. And you should do that. But a social object is something that transcends the business to sort of make it more interesting to the people who don't know you to start to engage with you. And the key thing is the starting of the engaging, right? Now, what I've tried to do with the podcast is if you think about it more as a frame around which fits around my company's proposition. All right. So my company, as I've mentioned, builds digital products predominantly for impact-led entrepreneurs. So people with a social purpose. And so our audience is impact-led entrepreneurs who are entrepreneurs. So I figured, okay, well, we had this terrible year and I was, I mean, listen, I lost a load of money. It was bad by any metric, right? And without that, I wouldn't have transformed myself, Both in terms of my personal relationships, my fitness, my business, which is now much— all those elements are significantly better today than they were in 2017. And so it was an important lesson for me to grow. So I thought, well, how can I use that insight to help other entrepreneurs, A, avoid what I did, and B, learn other stuff that they can apply to their business? And C, that helps me because I'm trying to build a relationship with entrepreneurs. Okay. So a podcast and a media asset can scale exponentially without me being in the room, unlike a physical event. So I figured a podcast, you know, I'm quite confident on chatting to people. And in fact, I learned how to be in the moment at the Tech Off on stage. So I kind of, I'm comfortable in that sort of space. So I figured, okay, if I speak to entrepreneurs about what their worst experiences were, how they got their businesses back on track and what they learned, that's really much more valuable content than anything the tech department can say, however good it is for my audience, right? So I'm trying to genuinely serve my audience with this social object. Now, through the fact that it's been genuinely trying to serve people, we had an amazing response to the podcast. Within 48 hours, we were number 2 in the entrepreneurship charts in the UK. We've consistently been top 40, and we're now, as I believe, we're a top 5% in the globally top 5% podcasts heard in over 44 countries now. And that's within probably about 15 months with zero marketing budget. We don't run any ads, we don't do anything promotion apart from post it on our Twitter feed, do a bit of personal sharing, and put it on other platforms. And I've interviewed about 55 different very top-end entrepreneurs, many of which with OBEs and MBEs and international people from Silicon Valley and Barbados and all sorts. And these people are now personal friends. So I consult with them on ideas they've got or strategies I have. And in fact, next week I'm meeting 15 of them for a dinner in London. So we have a little network of people. And so there's this kind of halo effect around the brand. It engages with people. I've had people who've come on the podcast recommend me to people. And it's a way of creating conversation and rooted in genuine value. And because it starts on that premise, people absolutely 100% believe my business is great, which it, by the way, is. And so it's a much more fluid way of getting people into my funnel.

Dan, the podcast is great. You know, I've obviously started this podcast as well and really enjoying the benefits of that, but not everyone is comfortable with this as a social object and creating something. What's been your view or experience of social objects that may be collaborative? So someone that doesn't want to start a whole nother, another event or another podcast, can you give us some insights onto social objects that, as I say, maybe a shared experience with maybe partners or other industry players that someone could almost kind of get some experience of creating or co-creating platforms?

Yeah, I think where I'd go back to is go to yourself and go inside and think like, what's genuinely authentic to me? Okay, because what you don't want to do is set up a podcast if you hate public speaking. You just can't. It's not, that's not great. What's true to you? And also, what's your unique ability, to coin a phrase from Dan Sullivan, the sort of entrepreneurial coach, your unique ability? What are you uniquely good at? And then maybe partner with people who have got other skills, who maybe are good on camera or on a stage, and maybe you can provide insight in different ways and think creatively, think laterally. I mean, I was literally dressed as a wrestler on stage, on camera, and as a direct result, was named as a digital ambassador for the UK by the British Interactive Media Association in their Hall of Fame. I completely committed career suicide on multiple levels by doing what I was doing. You know, but what I did, it was, I mean, I have a propensity for getting into fancy dress or whatever, The point is lateral creative moves are where it's at. I think, what are people not doing in your industry? What's abnormal in your industry? That creates difference. And then you are noticeable, coming back to the theme of this podcast, because you're not doing the same old stuff that everybody else is. All right? So, if you think about the TechOff, even though ultimately it was misaligned with my business over time, the root of it was not trying to do what everybody else did. And then creating a concept that was different. It could have fallen on its face and probably should have done in many ways, but it didn't. And partly because people fell in love with it because it was a bit crazy. I didn't need everyone to love it. I needed some people to love it and some people could be not bothered. In fact, some people hated it. We had a very interesting write-up in Gizmodo magazine, this guy who completely missed the joke and slagged us off to high heaven. And anyway, it was just funny, but like it was, we didn't care because like we are doing our thing, engage with our audience. And it was just— Fun. And actually, it's the whole thing here. I think go back to what's true to you, what can be fun and engaging, what's creative, and what are people not doing.

Right. And social objects also could be, for example, even community contributions, right? It could be involved in, for example, education, right? As you say, it's about your purpose and extrapolating your purpose into an event or an activity.

I think that's a really good shout. I mean, the podcast, the purpose I have with the podcast is a genuine social purpose. I'm genuinely trying to help other entrepreneurs to avoid the pitfalls I made and to learn ways to better survive and thrive. Now, there are other ways you can have a social purpose through charity or through giving or through education or through helping people. So maybe again, this is sort of rather than thinking about me, me, me, I need people in my funnel, this sort of scarcity thing, maybe give and pay forward and treat it as an act of service that then through those relationships which are coming from a very grounded place are much better, right? And so, because people have said to me, how did you make the podcast so successful? You know, in its small way, it's a success. What they want to know is, how many ads did you run and what platforms did you run them on, right? But we didn't do that. What we did was try and genuinely help people. That's what I've tried to do in every moment of trying to do this exercise. And so, people sense that. So, they sniff If you're trying to sell them something and they don't want that. People don't want to be sold to. You don't want to be sold to. So if you go back to first principles and go, okay, what does my customer want? Not what do I want to sell them? All right? So you can actually serve your customer's actual needs, not just try and keep your production facility busy. Then you've got a fighting chance of building a relationship with them on terms that are gonna over time be more successful for you.

Dan, you know, this is fantastic and thanks for introducing the concept of social objects. And I am gonna ask you about another object just briefly because I know you had a business back in the day about sonic branding. We've only got a minute and a half left, but I'd love for you to just touch on sonic branding because I think it's an underexplored, underutilized part of someone's strategy for getting noticed. Maybe a quick takeaway, quick introduction to how people can use audio or sound as part of their getting noticed strategy.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. When we're on a podcast now, which may be being listened to on audio, and of course your interface to that content is the sound. So back in 2003, well, 2001 actually, I set up a visual branding agency, which I sold eventually in 2009. But we had a client ask us, can you do an audio logo? Because we have a visual logo, we've just been working on their branding. And it turned out I know a guy who's actually a very well-renowned pop star. He founded the Human League. band back in the '80s, in the '70s actually, in the UK, a guy called Martin Ware, who's a friend. And so I said, Martin, can you help me do a sonic logo? And we'll follow the process we do for a visual logo and we'll produce this content. And then at the time I was working with, or still does actually, at a company called Illustrious with a guy called Vince Clarke who had the band Erasure. So Martin Ware, who set up the Human League and now is touring the US currently with his band Heaven 17, and Vince Clarke produced some sound logos for us. And the point being is, we treated sound and audio strategically. All right? So we treated it as something that should align with your brand and your values, not just the founder likes, I don't know, rock music, so we'll have rock music. And as a result of that, we built a team with another chap called Noel Franes, who was based in Portland, Oregon. And we were the world's first transatlantic sonic branding agency. And we did a lot of work with brands in New York and in London. And we actually got appointed by Dolby to do the global sonic brand for them. Just then the financial crisis hit and it didn't happen. This is 2008. So the point being is, as an entrepreneur, how you design your brand is more important now to think about all aspects of it, visual, physical, and audio, and all elements of that in a way that, going back to my point about how does your customer, what do they wanna hear? Not what do you wanna hear? All right, so don't just whack on some heavy rock because you like Iron Maiden. Think about, okay, what is the vibe, the essence, the brand you're trying to build? How can the sound serve that? And then make that choice. And again, go as you would do for a visual logo, do a mood board, get different snippets of audio and see what feels right, and then design something appropriate. And there's lots of— nowadays there's lots of libraries of content that are very cost-effective. Or you can commission stuff for bespoke, but it's worth considering. Yeah.

Dan, we've covered so much. You know, I try and keep these shows just down to 20 minutes, but there's so much value. Thank you for talking about social objects and how we can use those as connectors with our communities and our audiences. And I couldn't resist asking a little about sonic branding because I'm quite fascinated in that. Thank you. If you want to find out more about you, Dan Kirby, where can they do that?

Well, go and have a check out the podcast. If you're an entrepreneur and you wanna avoid some of the pitfalls I fell into and learn from genuinely, authentically behind the scenes of very high-profile, very well-respected entrepreneurs. In fact, I interviewed Martin Ware from the Human League about the time he was kicked out of his own band. He was famously kicked out of his band, the Human League, to create his new band, Heaven 17, back in the '80s. And so, if you go to the podcast, check that out. Martin Ware, we interviewed him for an hour about like, honey, I blew up the band. So, it's called Honey, I Blew Up the Business, available on all podcast platforms. I'm on LinkedIn as Dan Kirby. You can find me on Twitter and Instagram @thedankirby. There's only one Dan Kirby, the T-H-E Dan Kirby. So see me there, connect with me there, and I'd love to hear what you think of the podcast. I'm genuinely trying to help people. So have a listen, see what you think, and let me know if there's any ways I can improve it.

Dan, you've genuinely helped me and all my fellow unnoticed entrepreneurs, and it's The Unnoticed Entrepreneur, and you are obviously a very well-known one. So thanks to you, Dan, for joining me today on the show.

My absolute pleasure.

So you've listened to Dan Kirby, of course, as always, I'll put all his details in the show notes. And if you like the show, please do share it with a fellow entrepreneur because just like Dan, I'm on a mission really to help fellow entrepreneurs to understand how to get noticed, how to do it right, maybe avoid some of the pitfalls of doing it wrong. And today we've been talking about social objects and do share this because you may just help another entrepreneur to keep on communicating.